A Reunion Unconsidered at FOM

[Damer Sedai]

Both Moiraine and Cadsuane made oaths/promises, and neither oath precluded the swearer from manipulating him or working against his goals, as long as their goals were altruistic and for his benefit. Cadsuane's oath allowed for her to oppose him whenever she felt necessary, as long as she ruly felt he was wrong. Cadsuane's promise was less strong than an oath of fealty, where Moiraine had to follow explicit directions. Note that Moiraine tactics worked much quicker, but Cadsuane is no Moiriane, and more importantly, Rand was in a MUCH different place in terms of trust, due to Alanna, the Salidar Embassy, and especially Elaida's embassy (not mention worsening taint, the Moridin link, etc, etc) and there is no guarantee that tact would have worked (and I cant really imagine that it would).

 

Of course, to Cadsuane's mind, what's best for Rand is for him to do what ever Cadsuane wants... so no problems there for her (kidding... sort of). Its an Aes Sedai statement, with plenty of wiggle room, just like we see with Rand's Aes Sedai and their oaths of fealty, and Alanna's gambit to get him to allow her to Delve him (BOnding him instead). Cadsuane was Rand's best ally in book WH thru KOD, but lets not white wash it, things could get pretty bumpy between the two.

 

Rand trusts Cadsuane now post enlightenment, but she did many things counter to Rand's wishes all the way up to their confrontation, some of which he was aware some of which he just suspected. I am certain he respected her based on all her essential aid and wise counsel, he didnt really trust her until TOM, and that is clear in the books.

 

Rand will go with 2 advisors, I think, if Moiriaine plans to stick around. Perhaps Cadsuane will have to go off and teach the Ashaman what they need to learn, as we are running out of time.

[Agitel]

I don't consider it strong enough. Again recall she went behind his back on things like the Aiel post that moment. That was just Moir switching tactics once the first wasn't working.

 

She was doing what she thought was best to help him, not putting the White Tower or herself first. But more important than any of that, that was before she made the oath to Rand. The event you speak of was in chapter 2. The oath was in chapter 6.

 

She tried to convince them to not cross the dragon wall in ch. 2? My bad must have got that mixed up, could have sworn it came after...

 

Edit: Just checked, it happened in Ch. 5, the events are pretty much back to back.

 

Slight correction at this time.

 

In chapter 2 she tries to dissuade Rand.

 

In chapter 5 she tries to counsel the Wise Ones against the plan.

 

In chapter 6 she makes her oath.

 

In chapter 14 Moiraine is still trying to convince Rand not to cross, but this is only in conversation with him (though Mat overhears, and it's him who shares this information with us and Egwene).

 

That's all I could find on the conflict between Moiraine and Rand on the issue by searching (Dragonwall) in my ebook.

[Suttree]

For me, the reason Moiraine is more trustworthy is action. They both have been manipulative in the past, and both have changed tactics, both have given oaths... but Moiraine literally threw herself into a torturous situation for Rand, she spent her entire life tracking him down, and for all her manipulation she managed to gain his trust without Min constantly telling Rand he needs her, and without driving him to the edge of madness where it felt like almost a coin toss whether he would break the world or come back to his senses. Now perhaps he needed to be driven to the edge of madness, but it is hardly the 'trustworthy' method of inspiring change.

 

Umm Cads plan was not "drive him to the edge of madness".

 

The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai'don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

In fact she shows that she was very much aware of the dangers of pushing him too far...

 

"If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Pha! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim

Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear."

 

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars

 

In regards to Moiraine even though I had the chapters wrong my point still holds. If she was merely a trusted advisor she would have let him decide and not gone behind his back. She ended up submitting to him because her existing methods weren't working, not because she realized Rand needed to control his own fate in the minutes betweem her talking to the WOs in the sweat tent and the DH attack. Look she is one of my favorite characters but again, let's be realistic.

 

, Rand was in a MUCH different place in terms of trust, due to Alanna, the Salidar Embassy, and especially Elaida's embassy (not mention worsening taint, the Moridin link, etc, etc) and there is no guarantee that tact would have worked (and I cant really imagine that it would).

 

Good point and we know Cads is very much aware of this. After the Tower AS came bearing gifts and flattery(followed by the kidnapping) the worst possible thing she could have done is approach him in a similar fashion. She very much knows what she has to do.

 

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

 

Its an Aes Sedai statement, with plenty of wiggle room,

 

We do know that Cads believes it to be true in her mind...

 

Cadsuane drew a deep breath. She had promised the boy that whatever she did would be for his good, not the good of the Tower or anyone else's, and now she had broken a good woman for his good.

 

- Winter's Heart, The Hummingbird’s Secret

[Agitel]

EDIT: I do think there's more to it and her development, but I've taken this off-topic. I'll stop.

[ozimandias]

I didn't say driving him to the edge of madness was Cad's plan, but I do believe it was caused by her actions.

The idea that swearing to do what is best for Rand means that Cads is less manipulative is silly - doing what YOU THINK is best for someone else is manipulation at its finest. Promising to do what *you think* is best for someone, regardless of what that person thinks, is not a good way to build trust. And I believe her actions in that regard, continuing to do what she thought was best without involving him in what or why she was doing it, is a big part of what drove him to the brink. It was what made him harden in the first place, and her actions did not soften him but made him become all the harder.

When moiraine was advising (after her oath) she actually gave him most of what she was thinking and why she thought this or that was a bad idea, and asked and listened for his ideas. As a counselor, this is the best way to inspire change and become trustworthy, not by simply promising to do what is 'best for them'.

[Suttree]

I didn't say driving him to the edge of madness was Cad's plan, but I do believe it was caused by her actions.

The idea that swearing to do what is best for Rand means that Cads is less manipulative is silly - doing what YOU THINK is best for someone else is manipulation at its finest. Promising to do what *you think* is best for someone, regardless of what that person thinks, is not a good way to build trust. And I believe her actions in that regard, continuing to do what she thought was best without involving him in what or why she was doing it, is a big part of what drove him to the brink. It was what made him harden in the first place, and her actions did not soften him but made him become all the harder.

When moiraine was advising (after her oath) she actually gave him most of what she was thinking and why she thought this or that was a bad idea, and asked and listened for his ideas. As a counselor, this is the best way to inspire change and become trustworthy, not by simply promising to do what is 'best for them'.

 

Who said anything about one being more manipulative than the other. We are discussing them earning trust which they have both done in equal measure. They have both risked their lives, they have both saved his.

 

To say that Cads actions are what made him harden in the first place is laughable in the extreme and directly contradicts what happens in the text. For the most part Cads and the Aiel WOs are the only ones who rightly identify what is happening and decide they need to work together to stop it.

 

Here is a good article for you to read by Linda at 13th Depository. It might help you remember a bit better how things went down.

 

http://13depository....st-7-about.html

[ozimandias]

Who said anything about one being more manipulative than the other. We are discussing them earning trust which they have both done in equal measure. They have both risked their lives, they have both saved his.

 

To say that Cads actions are what made him harden in the first place is laughable in the extreme and directly contradicts what happens in the text. For th4 most part Cads and the Aiel WOs are the only ones who rightly identify what is happening and decide they need to work together to stop it.

I simply meant that being manipulated and used in the plans for others was what hardened him in the first place, not cadsuane. Sorry if it was not clear because I used too many pronouns, but the 'IT' was referring to that manipulation and feelings of being used. Going all the way back, each time he grew harder was in response to his feelings of not being in control or being too weak to stand against what was coming and do what must be done. Cadsuane played into that feeling, rather than trying to show him through her own action that strength is not always needed, sometimes being flexible and caring is what is needed.

 

Edit: After reading that article, I feel even more strongly that Cads' wasn't necessarily what Rand needed, and it was inevitable that he end up at the brink with her method. "What must be endured, can be endured" is the same method of thinking that made Rand harden himself to the point where breaking was his only option and quotes like this one:

 

The al'Thor boy needed to be kept intrigued enough that he allowed her near him, and off-balance enough that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing.

 

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars

This shows how much she was still manipulating him, and yes I think manipulation does count as a negative strike towards trustworthiness.

Anyway, no big deal... I just find her very untrustworthy personally. Though perhaps her actions helped to 'fix' Rand ... they did not do so in the best of ways in my opinion. Looking over all her scenes with him I did not see her as having much positive effect on him, and though it all turned out okay and he gave her some credit in his eventual turn away from hardness, I feel it was more in Spite of her guidance rather than because of it.

But I certainly find her to be a fascinating character, no doubt about that, and I can see why you would enjoy her.

[Suttree]

Who said anything about one being more manipulative than the other. We are discussing them earning trust which they have both done in equal measure. They have both risked their lives, they have both saved his.

 

To say that Cads actions are what made him harden in the first place is laughable in the extreme and directly contradicts what happens in the text. For th4 most part Cads and the Aiel WOs are the only ones who rightly identify what is happening and decide they need to work together to stop it.

I simply meant that being manipulated and used in the plans for others was what hardened him in the first place, not cadsuane. Sorry if it was not clear because I used too many pronouns, but the 'IT' was referring to that manipulation and feelings of being used. Going all the way back, each time he grew harder was in response to his feelings of not being in control or being too weak to stand against what was coming and do what must be done. Cadsuane played into that feeling, rather than trying to show him through her own action that strength is not always needed, sometimes being flexible and caring is what is needed.

 

Ahhh ok, thanks for clarifying. I see it much differently but fair enough...

[Damer Sedai]

Now that Cadsuane has successfully derailed another topic (and boy I want to say more, but I'll save it for a later date), but I was think about other meetings at Merillor

 

There probably really isnt room in the Last Book for us to see all the interactions we want, but I want Min and Egwene to get together and chat.

- Egwene can be mad at Rand about his subject Aes Sedai, and Min can put her straight about the shenanigans at Dumai's wells and how the swearing came about, and make clear how Rand did not even know that Logain was an Ashaman, let alone didn't make the orders to bond Aes Sedai, and his anger when it happened (Who let Logain free anyway?)

- Min can be mad about Aes Sedai mistreating Rand, and Egwene can explain about Elaida's fate and how the mission was kept secret from the Hall, and how much

Mesaana/Black Ajah influence there was in the dysfunction in the tower and their orders to sow discord (i.e. such as mistreat the Dragon Reborn)

- They both can resolve to kick Alanna in the rump when she next pokes up her little head (or maybe that should be reserved for Elayne, Min, and Aviendha)

 

It would be nice to get some of this hashed out sooner rather than later, because I think they all could use a group hug (yes, yes .... I am a big softy about this stuff) before major characters start kicking it.

[Suttree]

Now that Cadsuane has successfully derailed another topic (and boy I want to say more, but I'll save it for a later date), but I was think about other meetings at Merillor

 

Wasn't the OP about Cads and Moir and how they relate to each other? I think their respective dealings with Rand is very much fair game...

[Damer Sedai]

Now that Cadsuane has successfully derailed another topic (and boy I want to say more, but I'll save it for a later date), but I was think about other meetings at Merillor

 

Wasn't the OP about Cads and Moir and how they relate to each other? I think their respective dealings with Rand is very much fair game...

 

I suppose... it was starting to be more about Cads and Rand and how much she helped him, but I suppose it was tangentially related.

 

I am no moderator, carry on.

[shortkut]

 

In regards to Moiraine even though I had the chapters wrong my point still holds. If she was merely a trusted advisor she would have let him decide and not gone behind his back. She ended up submitting to him because her existing methods weren't working, not because she realized Rand needed to control his own fate in the minutes betweem her talking to the WOs in the sweat tent and the DH attack. Look she is one of my favorite characters but again, let's be realistic.

did you not just define cads? Cads was having secret meetings with min, ny, the WO's, and other AS behind his back. Cads told him he was wrong about things the way moir told him after her oath. Cads only submitted to him because her other methods got her exiled. Look, cads is one of my favorite characters, but again, let's be realistic.

[Suttree]

In regards to Moiraine even though I had the chapters wrong my point still holds. If she was merely a trusted advisor she would have let him decide and not gone behind his back. She ended up submitting to him because her existing methods weren't working, not because she realized Rand needed to control his own fate in the minutes betweem her talking to the WOs in the sweat tent and the DH attack. Look she is one of my favorite characters but again, let's be realistic.

did you not just define cads? Cads was having secret meetings with min, ny, the WO's, and other AS behind his back. Cads told him he was wrong about things the way moir told him after her oath. Cads only submitted to him because her other methods got her exiled. Look, cads is one of my favorite characters, but again, let's be realistic.

 

?

 

Not sure your point. Have you followed the conversation? As was stated to b3arz3rg3r earlier that is exactly what I meant. This isn't a comparison or claiming either was better conversation. It was merely disproving the intital statement Moir is the only advisor he could trust.

 

As an aside what do you mean that Cads only submitted because her other methods got her exiled? She swore to do what was best for him all the way back in TPoD. Good to see she is one of your favs though now, I knew you would come around eventually.

 

If you are trying to rate them however(is that where you were trying to take the conversation?) one thing to keep in mind Is Cads never went behind his back to deliberately try and hamstring his plans as Moir did with the Aiel. She always assessed the risks and told him straight up what she thought. As Luckers said in the "Subtleties of Cadsuane" thread...

 

Why Does She Not Interfere?

 

I ask you to consider the question of the Cleansing. It was a similar situation--Rand doing something which risked the pattern itself--so why, unlike the issue with balefire, did she follow Rand’s lead here? In the balefire situation, she knows there is great danger and no gain. And no evidence existed for her that contradicted that knowledge, or even suggested such evidence might exist. So she acted--a solid premise leading to decision and action. She was, of course, wrong--I'm not trying to defend her here, I'm just trying to point out that when she acted, she had solid, logical reasons to do so. But at the Cleansing, when she wasn't certain, when she had reason to doubt--she did not act.

 

And this occurs several times—the Cleansing, the alliance with the Seanchan, the releasing of the captured damane, the lack of the use of torture in questioning Semirhage—however much she mightn’t like something, lacking a specific, certain reason to oppose him, she falls in line. That is where she steps clean of my derision for the Aes Sedai—because she is not the ultimate form of Aes Sedai meddling. They meddle because they think that as Aes Sedai they not only have the right to, but that they must or else they aren’t good Aes Sedai. She meddles when logic dictates that she must—and that is, I think, the defining aspect of Cadsuane's bullying. When she did not have solid reasons to intervene, she doesn't. All of which leads us back to...

 

Moir with the Aiel example went far beyond her role as advisor, and most likely allowed the prejudice from her Cairhenien heritage to influence her decision.

[shortkut]

In regards to Moiraine even though I had the chapters wrong my point still holds. If she was merely a trusted advisor she would have let him decide and not gone behind his back. She ended up submitting to him because her existing methods weren't working, not because she realized Rand needed to control his own fate in the minutes betweem her talking to the WOs in the sweat tent and the DH attack. Look she is one of my favorite characters but again, let's be realistic.

did you not just define cads? Cads was having secret meetings with min, ny, the WO's, and other AS behind his back. Cads told him he was wrong about things the way moir told him after her oath. Cads only submitted to him because her other methods got her exiled. Look, cads is one of my favorite characters, but again, let's be realistic.

 

?

 

Not sure your point. Have you followed the conversation? As was stated to b3arz3rg3r earlier that is exactly what I meant. This isn't a comparison or claiming either was better conversation. It was merely disproving the intital statement Moir is the only advisor he could trust.

 

As an aside what do you mean that Cads only submitted because her other methods got her exiled? She swore to do what was best for him all the way back in TPoD. Good to see she is one of your favs though now, I knew you would come around eventually.

 

If you are trying to rate them however(is that where you were trying to take the conversation?) one thing to keep in mind Is Cads never went behind his back to deliberately try and hamstring his plans as Moir did with the Aiel. She always assessed the risks and told him straight up what she thought. As Luckers said in the "Subtleties of Cadsuane" thread...

 

Why Does She Not Interfere?

 

I ask you to consider the question of the Cleansing. It was a similar situation--Rand doing something which risked the pattern itself--so why, unlike the issue with balefire, did she follow Rand’s lead here? In the balefire situation, she knows there is great danger and no gain. And no evidence existed for her that contradicted that knowledge, or even suggested such evidence might exist. So she acted--a solid premise leading to decision and action. She was, of course, wrong--I'm not trying to defend her here, I'm just trying to point out that when she acted, she had solid, logical reasons to do so. But at the Cleansing, when she wasn't certain, when she had reason to doubt--she did not act.

 

And this occurs several times—the Cleansing, the alliance with the Seanchan, the releasing of the captured damane, the lack of the use of torture in questioning Semirhage—however much she mightn’t like something, lacking a specific, certain reason to oppose him, she falls in line. That is where she steps clean of my derision for the Aes Sedai—because she is not the ultimate form of Aes Sedai meddling. They meddle because they think that as Aes Sedai they not only have the right to, but that they must or else they aren’t good Aes Sedai. She meddles when logic dictates that she must—and that is, I think, the defining aspect of Cadsuane's bullying. When she did not have solid reasons to intervene, she doesn't. All of which leads us back to...

 

Moir with the Aiel example went far beyond her role as advisor, and most likely allowed the prejudice from her Cairhenien heritage to influence her decision.

she'd been one of my favorites before I became active here. Just because I thought the tam scene was not out of character does not mean I disliked her.

 

Your pod read like you were sayin cads was better because moir did that while cads did not. Just because she have her word books ago does by mean she bathe same strategy of dealing with rand then as she did later.

[Agitel]

To say that Moir trying to talk Rand against using the Aiel because of Cairhien bias is just unfair to Moiraine. While we can't completely discount such bias, I can definitely see good reasoning for her argument. More than just the Cairhienin suffered when the Aiel crossed the Dragonwall 20 years prior. It is fair to believe that this could only provoke a negative reaction from the westlands, and Moiraine was uninformed that Siuane had been deposed at this time, thinking that by now Siuane was rallying the leaders of the Westlands to the Dragon's cause. The facts showed that Moiraine was wrong (given how much things had changed since they'd entered the Waste and the things still unknown), but I do think she was exercising good judgment.

[elric]

with all due respect to Cads (and i have LOT of respect to her) there no chance she can take Moiraine place with Rand.

 

Mor helped the YOUNG Rand, before he had power , before he was strong, she come to him at the height of his vulnerability and guided him when he needed her MOST.

Cads come to the DR, help u get when u weak is more appriciated then help u get when u strong.

 

Mor not only advised Rand she TEACHED him, she tried to make him independent, she tryied to give him the tools to make his own decision.

Cads attidute was more of -> do as i say i know better and dont argue.

 

Morrain Died for Rand, KNOWING she will die.

Cads risked her life, but hadnt went for CERTAIN death for him.

 

Mor bare her soul to Rand, she let him c her in her weakness without any defence (or atleast any defence he sensed)

Cads never let Rand c her without her guards on.

 

Mor let rand to learn from Asmoden, she let him know she understand his motive and that she TRUST him

Cads never show Rand that she trust him and his choises. (her reaction for his balefire for example)

 

and on a side note , i really DONT advice anyone to spank Mor in front of Rand, i STRONGLY douth he will c it as private matter and more likely he will c it as attack on a dear friend at best , a mother figure at worst (for the spanker)

[Suttree]

Mor not only advised Rand she TEACHED him, she tried to make him independent, she tryied to give him the tools to make his own decision.

Cads attidute was more of -> do as i say i know better and dont argue.

 

If Moir was just an advisor who allowed him to make his own decisions please explain why she went behind his back to the Aiel in a betrayal of trust. She was attempting to control him, it's pretty cut and dry. That baring her souls was just a different tactic.

 

Cads never show Rand that she trust him and his choises. (her reaction for his balefire for example)

 

Errmmm what? She back him to the hilt when he made his decision to cleanse the source and she did so a number of other issues as well. How is allowing him to risk the world and organizing a defense that made it possible at the cleansing not showing him she trusts his choices?

[Damer Sedai]

Mor not only advised Rand she TEACHED him, she tried to make him independent, she tryied to give him the tools to make his own decision.

Cads attidute was more of -> do as i say i know better and dont argue.

 

If Moir was just an advisor who allowed him to make his own decisions please explain why she went behind his back to the Aiel in a betrayal of trust. She was attempting to control him, it's pretty cut and dry. That baring her souls was just a different tactic.

 

Cads never show Rand that she trust him and his choises. (her reaction for his balefire for example)

 

Errmmm what? She back him to the hilt when he made his decision to cleanse the source and she did so a number of other issues as well. How is allowing him to risk the world and organizing a defense that made it possible at the cleansing not showing him she trusts his choices?

 

Its hard to pin Down how Cadsuane feels about Rand plan. She definitely is working very hard to make sure he survives, and to ensure that he becomes what he needs to be to win the last battle. She has shown early in ACoS and WH in her PoVs that would prefer to guide his decisions, but Cads cleverly changed tacts since her agreement with Sorelea only because other methods were unlikely to work. But The Cleansing was an interesting scenario for many reason, because she had limited alternatives.

1. Cads could try and disuade him. While he has agreed to her terms of listening to her counsel, he has not agreed to follow her directions. Given her impression of Rand (and ours, given his recent behavior) he is unlikely to change his mind unless she has compelling evidence to to contrary, and likely even not then; and at this point Rand's acceptance of her is new, and she is clearly smart enough to want to avoid ruining her new connection with him, unless its absolutely necessary

2. She could try and stop him, and fail: despite her skill and tricks, Rand would not be easy for her to handle (especially since he had both the Access key and Callandor), and with so many powerful chanellers with so many conflicting loyalties the scenario would be powder keg (and far to many powerful folks willing to side with Rand), and dangerous to boot.

3. Cads could try and stop him and succeed. Given Rands trust issues, this would likely ruin any chance Cads would have of molding him. SHe still needed to show support at this early juncture

4. Cads could refuse to help, and threaten to leave. The chance is way too high that he will try anyway; and her most important goal is to ensure that he survives to the last battle. Clearly, this would have been a bad choice given forces that wear brought to bear.

5. She can support him, see his plan through, and prove her value and do some good besides. And perhaps step in if things are going horribly wrong (she never actually says she wont try and stop the Cleansing)

 

Given Cadsuane's less than great options, her decision was the best of the lot, and speaks very well of her. Perhaps it speaks to the fact that she trusts Rand more than she seems to indicate in her PoVs (I sure like to think so). I also suspect, given that we know now that she is well versed the Prophecies of the Dragon, that she had a inkling of the mean of the line "HE shall Heal the wounds of madness and the cutting of hope" that MOiraine references at the end of TOM.

 

The only reason I doubt your assessment of Cadsuane's full blown support, is the fact that when Rand is unconscious she takes the Access Key away from Rand (as well as Callandor), and refuses to give it back. What has changed since then? Rand actually succeeded, and was right, and performed a bonafide miracle. If she fully supported his decision then, and he justified this confidence, she should trust him even more. So why does she keep his possessions anyway.? She questions his judgement, especially given the horrors one can wreak holding ultimate power. She may be right to be concerned, but it does cast aspersions on your claim that she 'backed him to the hilt', which implied that she was wholehearted about her support.

 

Now, her safekeeping of the Choeden Kal key may also have been wrapped up in her "discipline" program somehow (however, it obviously hampered it as much as it helped) but either way she clearly stepped in, when given an opportunity (Rands being unconscious) where the stakes weren't as high and her chances of success where guaranteed, compared to prior to the Cleansing.

 

I think Cads was smart, and did what was necessary, and from WH to TGS she is Rand's greatest ally, but I don't think you can say that she supports him whole heartedly just based on this fact. Cadsuane is a lot more complicated than that.

[TootThatHorn]

I've seen Cads as a sort of Moiraine while Moiraine was gone type of character. She is as important, given that she was integral in Rand's epiphany right? I actually was hoping that Moiraine would get rescued and when Rand saw her again that would pull him out of his funk, but now I think she will show up and it will be the last piece of the puzzle Rand is looking for to deal with the DO, especially after Min sees her.

I've mentioned in another thread that I actually heavily look forward to a Moir/Min meeting; I know Rand carries feelings over losing Moir but when Min sees her, she will freak out. The one vision she thought failed, and someone she knows Rand needs to win. That will be exciting.

[Suttree]

The only reason I doubt your assessment of Cadsuane's full blown support, is the fact that when Rand is unconscious she takes the Access Key away from Rand (as well as Callandor), and refuses to give it back. What has changed since then? Rand actually succeeded, and was right, and performed a bonafide miracle. If she fully supported his decision then, and he justified this confidence, she should trust him even more. So why does she keep his possessions anyway.?

 

She took the items and refused to give them back? Unless I am totally spacing that never happened. We know she sent callandor and the sad braceletes copies to some friends to study. But Rand had the Cheodan Kal the whole time did he not?

 

I think Cads was smart, and did what was necessary, and from WH to TGS she is Rand's greatest ally, but I don't think you can say that she supports him whole heartedly just based on this fact. Cadsuane is a lot more complicated than that.

 

That is just one example as I've said. She has backed him almost unfailingly throughout the series. She just knows she can't go about it in the normal way...

 

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

[elric]

i dont say Cads dont trust Rand, i said she never show it to him.

 

she usually acted as a teacher/Parent toward an unruly /notty /ignorant .. Kid

 

so she backed him on 1 occasion (where she really didnt have a choise) it not her usual demeanor and it really not comparable to the Trust level Mor shown regarding him keeping Asmoden as teacher.

[Damer Sedai]

Cadusane takes possession of the Access Key at the end of WH, last chapter, p654, packing it in her bags while Rand is unconscious.

ITs not mentioned in a KoD at far as I can kind.

In TGS Ch 7, page 122 Nynaeve mentions that the male ter'angreal was still in Cadsuane's possession and as far as she knows, Rand had not been able to persuade her to return it to him

 

How the heck do you think the access key ended up in Cadsuane's box, Sutt?

 

Who are you trying to convince with that last quote anyway? I know that already. I agree Cads is doing God's work, and that she is using atypical methods. She saved him in Far MAdding, she was essential at the cleansing, and she supported him with the plans to treat with the Seanchan, and helped defeat Tuonmhriage; she is working against his wishes only to help him by changing him for the better; BUt your quote says nothing about her support of him either way.

[Suttree]

Cadusane takes possession of the Access Key at the end of WH, last chapter, p654, packing it in her bags while Rand is unconscious.

ITs not mentioned in a KoD at far as I can kind.

In TGS Ch 7, page 122 Nynaeve mentions that the male ter'angreal was still in Cadsuane's possession and as far as she knows, Rand had not been able to persuade her to return it to him

 

How the heck do you think the access key ended up in Cadsuane's box, Sutt?

 

Oh I know she had it, just couldn't remember the refuse to give it back part.

 

i dont say Cads dont trust Rand, i said she never show it to him.

 

she usually acted as a teacher/Parent toward an unruly /notty /ignorant .. Kid

 

so she backed him on 1 occasion (where she really didnt have a choise) it not her usual demeanor and it really not comparable to the Trust level Mor shown regarding him keeping Asmoden as teacher.

 

It was far more than just one occasion. Again read that link I provided earlier in the thread. It seems you have a flawed understanding of the situation. Cads almost unfailingly treats people based upon their actions. If she treats him like a kid at times it usually was because that is exactly how he was behaving. A perfect example is the time he showed up with the other Ashamna using threast with the power and acting like a moron trying to intimidate her.

[elric]

i readed the link Sult.

 

and i fear u are the one who misunderstand the debate here

 

the debate is NOT if Cadsuan is trustworthy -> no one argue against her, no one claim she dont have the world interest at heart.

 

the debate is -> do RAND trust her as he would trust Mor.

not do we (with our behind the screen knowledge) but do Rand with his limited knowledge.

and not should he trust her but should he trust her as much as he will trust Mor.

 

and viewing that Cads tact (much due to Elaeida (sp?) fault) was to make Rand uneasy/uncomfortable/2nd guessing, while Mor tact was i serve u fully (controliing saider by SUBMITTING to it) and her obvious attempt to teach him all she can without hiding anything (due to knowing she will going to 'die' VERY SOON) only enhance the trust diffrence Rand will have between them.

[Suttree]

the debate is -> do RAND trust her as he would trust Mor.

 

Yes of course, that is what we have been discussing all aong. I understand the debate just fine, I was the one who started it after all. The point being argued all along is that Moir is not anymore trustworthy than Cads from Rand's perspective. When I said you have a flawed understanding of the situation I meant in regards to Cads character and how Rand views her, not what this debate was about.

 

You seem to be regarding the cleansing as the one and only time she could have earned his trust which is where your thinking is flawed. We know of course she has earned his trust for a variety of reasons(cleansing, saving his life in the fog, support against the borderlanders, support for breaking the seals and studying callandor, backing his methods in dealing with Semi, saving him from Far Madding, etc etc and on and on. There is zero question he trusts her, and realizes she was the one that made it possible for him to survive VoG(even if it took a lucky stroke.)

 

ToM

"I was broken," Rand said, hands behind his back. "And then, remarkably, I was reforged. I think he almost had me, Egwene. It was Cadsuane who set me to fixing it...

 

Btw, you still haven't explained how if Moir was just an advisor who totally trusted his decisions as you claim, why she would betray his trust going behind his back about the Aiel trying to change their mind which is in direct conflict with his decision.