Will the Horn of Valere's origins come into play?

[2RiversFan]

Forum member Herid asked a question in the 'Simple Question' thread regarding the heroes of the Horn that reminded me of many questions I've always had but never been able to answer. Essentially, he asked whether the heroes could be harmed in any way during the time that they've been called back by the Horn. This question started a chain reaction in my thoughts, and eventually I came to a point where the Horn's origins may make a difference to our overall understanding / theme of the series.

 

I was intrigued by the question who could possibly have created this artifact, given that it demonstrates a mastery of life vs. death as well as knowledge of 'what lies beyond'. I generally stay away from theory threads in all forums, because I like to have full surprise when I finally get to read the book. Owing to that, I will not carry this discussion into the realm of a full-blown theory - you're all welcome to take this there yourselves or dismiss it out of hand. Having said that, one or two of the possible answers to this poll question do seem to fit quite nicely with both the 'How will Rand Seal the bore' and 'How Rand must die in order to live' theories that I haven't fully avoided.

 

Taking a look at what we know:

- T'A'R' is willfully accessible by a tiny fraction of WoT population - much smaller percentage than the 2-3% that can touch the O.P.

- The souls of the heroes dwell in T'A'R' (and presumably eveyone else as well) while in-between incarnations.

- Prior to being 'ripped' back into the (WoT) real-world, Birgitte seemed to know of only two means to exit T'A'R; Horn sounding and being reborn naturally. However she wasn't left ethereal when she was ripped out, she was made corporeal.

- Heroes called by the sounding of the HoV are ethereal. (they are also allowed to use the one unclogged lane :-| )

- Several Forsaken, Rand and Egwene (others?) have entered T'A'R' in the flesh; this leaves them much more powerful there than other T'A'R' dwellers.

There are other points to be made - but I'll stop at these.

 

I checked the interview database for "Horn of Valere", and of the 14 results found, it appears that the question of the origin was only asked one time:

Robert Jordan Oct 2005

For Randshammer, you might say that mortals made the Horn of Valere. They certainly weren't gods.

 

 

RJ dismisses the Creator having made the HoV. Interestingly, he certainly gives a hint in that he uses the plural form in each sentence of his answer. Of course, he doesn't give any inkling to the origins degree of importance. That fact may mean there is no importance but also may be dissembling to keep people off track.

 

So, I throw this poll out there (if I've done this first attempt at a poll correctly). I've deliberately stopped postulating here, (Where was the subtlety?) so that those so inclined may connect any dots themselves. Shoot it down, ignore it, or take up a mantle.

 

Cheers.

[Kamin_Majere]

I vote that the Horn is Deus ex Machina.

 

It falls into the real of mystical artifact that just does what it does. Someone had to "originally" create it, but as they had it already in the age of legends (much like the portal stones) its just something that appears to have always been around.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think that yes, if we had the origins of the Horn, we would think differently about it.

 

The main reason being this from Brandon

 

 

INTERVIEW: Apr, 2012

 

Afternoon Tea with Brandon Sanderson - Luckers (Paraphrased)

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

I will say that, in the course of writing A Memory of Light, I learned some very interesting things that went against some strong preconceptions I had about the Horn. Some of the ideas I had, about how it worked, turned out to be incorrect.

 

 

 

Whether we learn of the origins of the Horn in aMoL is a different question. Personally, I don't think we will get any insight into it's origins, we will just see it's effects and how it works.

 

Most likely we will get to see it in the encyclopaedia.

[Whizbang]

Hmmm... That quote makes me think of the Finns. They inscribed Mat's spear, so it would make sense that they made the Horn. 'Course, it could have been anyone from one of the alternate realities. Ogier supposedly traveled to this world from another. So, it could have been any sort of being from any of the other worlds (the Finns are one such).

 

AS to whether the origin comes into play, probably not. It is too late in the game to add much in the way of new players or world building. The Horn will blow and the heroes will be a counter for the Dreadlords or something. Or maybe they will do what they did in tGH, and bring TG down to Rand against the DO, and the forces of Light will balance against the forces of the DO, no matter the logistics. The Horn will give Rand and company time and space to work.

[2RiversFan]

I vote that the Horn is Deus ex Machina.

 

It falls into the real of mystical artifact that just does what it does. Someone had to "originally" create it, but as they had it already in the age of legends (much like the portal stones) its just something that appears to have always been around.

 

Due to the apparent indestrucitble nature of the heroes while called back, I made 'Deus ex Machina' a choice. I personally don't see it that way - RJ was too painstaking in his world-building and too detail-oriented to leave it to that. I tend to think it quite possible that the HoV is something even more important than calling back indestructible heroes; Rand may have referred to some of his own speculation on how it works more recently. (I can't say more on this forum).

 

BBM said:

Whether we learn of the origins of the Horn in aMoL is a different question. Personally, I don't think we will get any insight into it's origins, we will just see it's effects and how it works.

 

Most likely we will get to see it in the encyclopaedia.

 

I had forgotten about that quote from Luckers interview of Brandon... and while it is obviously still too ambiguous, it can possibly add fuel to this poll question.

By my way of thinking, seeing how it works may make its origin self evident. It's certainly possible that they'll leave it for the encyclopaedia - I'm not staking my life on what I've been alluding to in this thread.

 

Whizbang said:

Hmmm... That quote makes me think of the Finns. They inscribed Mat's spear, so it would make sense that they made the Horn. 'Course, it could have been anyone from one of the alternate realities. Ogier supposedly traveled to this world from another. So, it could have been any sort of being from any of the other worlds (the Finns are one such).

 

AS to whether the origin comes into play, probably not. It is too late in the game to add much in the way of new players or world building. The Horn will blow and the heroes will be a counter for the Dreadlords or something. Or maybe they will do what they did in tGH, and bring TG down to Rand against the DO, and the forces of Light will balance against the forces of the DO, no matter the logistics. The Horn will give Rand and company time and space to work.

 

I think you're on the right track possibly. The Finns seemingly do have the knowledge, ability and the timelessness (as far as we know) to have been around prior to the 2nd age to create / provide it to someone who asked. However I personally think they were involved only in the knowledge part - the actual creation was done by another group. Pure speculation on my part - but I admit I'm continuing to warm up to my speculation...at least until the resident expert sleuths arrive to quash it. :-D

[driedraspberry]

I doubt we'll learn much. But I hope it gets broken. I'd imagine some other age will remake it in time for the LB of the next turn.

[herid]

Forum member Herid asked a question in the 'Simple Question' thread regarding the heroes of the Horn that reminded me of many questions I've always had but never been able to answer. Essentially, he asked whether the heroes could be harmed in any way during the time that they've been called back by the Horn. This question started a chain reaction in my thoughts, and eventually I came to a point where the Horn's origins may make a difference to our overall understanding / theme of the series.

 

 

I should confess that the reason I asked the question was because I was thinking of the oft discussed possibility that Rand will die and come back to finish the LB as a Hero of the Horn. I didn't mention it in the other thread because I didn't want the conversation to be diverted. The apparent invincibility of the HoH when they are called by the Horn would seem to make this highly unlikely. If the Heroes are really impervious to physical damage and the damage by the OP then they shouldn't play more than a perfunctory role. Otherwise the Light side will have a small army of uber soldiers in god mode and that feels like cheating.

 

However, the quotes by BS that have been brought up seem to suggest that it might not be that simple. The one that Barid mentioned

 

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

I will say that, in the course of writing A Memory of Light, I learned some very interesting things that went against some strong preconceptions I had about the Horn. Some of the ideas I had, about how it worked, turned out to be incorrect.

What could he possibly be talking about here?! and another one

 

Terez (sleepinghour)

 

If a dead Hero who can channel is called by the Horn, can they channel at the battle?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Yes, they can.

AFAIK, the only Hero of the Horn who can channel is Rand. At least none of the others have been mentioned. And the fact that BS answered definitively and didn't RAFO (or MAFO) the question is very interesting by itself.