The best Healer in WoT ?

[fionwe1987]

The taint is something every channeler can detect (see Rand channeling from tGH-WH).

Really? They can detect it inside other channelers? Since when?

What Nyn was doing in the brain was essentially clean up and repair. It's like when we use isotopes to map out activity in physiology.

She doesn't instinctively know what regions of the brain are damaged.

She doesn't know instinctively. She knows after she delves someone. Just like when Sumeko delved Deobraine, she was able to detect a punctured lung.

Even if we are to believe OP is akin to 10billion antigen seeking antibodies and can latch on to abnormalities,

Ummm.. what? Whoever said any such thing?

that still wouldn't make Nyn's abilities in healing superior to Semirhage's. What about stroke? Nyn can't use MRIs or even symptoms to figure out the specific region of the damage, it's not a visible wound like in the case of brain trauma. Or Huntingtons.

What about stroke? If an Aes Sedai can detect heart problems, why can't they detect strokes? The only issue with the brain is that merely dealing with the cause of the stroke and regenerating cells isn't enough to restore function exactly as before, as their development and eventual function is much more experience dependent that with cardiomyocytes.

 

You don't need antibodies to detect strokes. Strokes essentially do their damage by causing hypoxia induced injury to the brain. Stroke affected patches should easily light up with Nynaeve's advanced delving, because they're not going to have that "pulsing" activity she detects, or that activity is going to be modified.

 

As for huntingtons, its a genetic condition. Depending on when an OP channeler detects it, course of treatment will have to be different. But RJ has said genetic diseases are OP-curable. For detection itself, the chorea will be obviously visible to the naked eye. And the inclusion bodies the Htt mutation causes should be detectable and removable. Right there, you can at least provide temporary relief to the patient by restoring motor function and higher cognitive function.

 

As for the rest, I can't conclusively say since all the functions of the protein are still not understood.

However, I have a hard time believing the OP works in that sense. It's more likely Nyn cured the poison victim and those of infectious diseases by simply repairing and regenerating where the damage has been caused while boosting the body's metabolism/immune response.

Go read the actual quote before you comment, why don't you?

 

As soon as she began the Delving, Nynaeve froze. She had expected to find Milisair's body taxed by exhaustion. She had expected to find disease, perhaps hunger.

She had not expected to find poison.

Cursing, suddenly alert, Nynaeve threw open the cell door and rushed inside. Yes, she could see it easily through the Delving. Tarchrot leaf. Nynaeve herself had given that to a hound who had needed to be put down. It was a common enough plant, and had a very bitter flavor. Not the best poison, as it had such an unpleasant taste, and yet had to be ingested.

Yes, it was a bad poison—unless the person you were poisoning was already captive and had no choice but to eat the food you gave her. Nynaeve began a Healing, weaving all five Powers, strangling the poison and strengthening Milisair's body. It was a relatively easy Healing, as tarchrot leaf wasn't particularly strong. You either had to use a lot of it— as she had with the hound—or you had to administer it several times for it to take effect. But if you did it slowly like that, the person you killed with it would seem to die naturally.

 

Several things to note. Nynaeve detects a foreign poison right away, and identifies it without missing a beat. Which means Delving isn't just showing her symptoms. She's basically doing some chemistry on the stuff the woman injected, but without having to actually collect samples. Next, she says straight out she's strangling the poison, and how the weakness of the poison makes her Healing easier.

 

And, the entire point of a poison, especially slow acting ones, is that they're not metabolized or excreted naturally. You can't simply improve normal body function and hope for the best! And you certainly can't achieve such a thing in a few minutes, without causing catastrophic inflammation.

 

Lastly, you're yet to explain how Nynaeve can achieve regeneration, but not do other complex stuff. You don't seem to know that regeneration is the hard part.

 

Also arthritis is not necessarily a symptom of autoimmune disease. It could be infectious.

Which this was not, since it was chronic trouble in a old woman! She didn't have an acute response one morning!

Either case what Siuan does is repair damaged joints, and that's what Nyn would've done. I have yet to see proof of her suppressing an hyperactive immune response. So basically, we don't know that she can cure anything outside of poison, infection, or magical pathogen.

Let's not forget Healing brain damage at a tissue level, handling heart conditions, reconstituting a burned hand, healing scar tissue...

Nyn most likely sped up the processing of the poison, metabolize and excretion of it. Most importantly she caused cell regeneration and repaired what it had damaged. She didn't need to reach out and pull every molecule, I seriously doubt she could do as much.

She doesn't have to pull out each molecule. Like she says, she "strangled" the poison. The only way to do that is generate antigens that will bing and neutralize it. Since we didn't see her inject anything, the only way to achieve that is to modulate the body to cause production of the antigen.

[driedraspberry]

The taint is something every channeler can detect (see Rand channeling from tGH-WH).

Really? They can detect it inside other channelers? Since when?

On the subject of detecting the taint, if channelers can detect saidin/saidar weaves inside other's mind, why shouldn't they detect the taint?

 

But if we're basing superior healing on taint removing/insanity healing the award goes to Ishamael. There is no point of further discussing this because Semirhage would have had no opportunity or reason to cure a DO taint, so it's essentially a null point.

 

What Nyn was doing in the brain was essentially clean up and repair. It's like when we use isotopes to map out activity in physiology.

She doesn't instinctively know what regions of the brain are damaged.

She doesn't know instinctively. She knows after she delves someone. Just like when Sumeko delved Deobraine, she was able to detect a punctured lung.

 

that still wouldn't make Nyn's abilities in healing superior to Semirhage's. What about stroke? Nyn can't use MRIs or even symptoms to figure out the specific region of the damage, it's not a visible wound like in the case of brain trauma. Or Huntingtons.

What about stroke? If an Aes Sedai can detect heart problems, why can't they detect strokes? The only issue with the brain is that merely dealing with the cause of the stroke and regenerating cells isn't enough to restore function exactly as before, as their development and eventual function is much more experience dependent that with cardiomyocytes.

 

You don't need antibodies to detect strokes. Strokes essentially do their damage by causing hypoxia induced injury to the brain. Stroke affected patches should easily light up with Nynaeve's advanced delving, because they're not going to have that "pulsing" activity she detects, or that activity is going to be modified.

 

And yet we know that Nyn can't delve and repair when the target is too intricate. Hence Rand's eye. If the damage to the CNS is not visible (via say cerebral hemorrhage), she wouldn't be able to delve and fix it. I'm not sure where you're making the antibody connections to the stroke, my point is simply that when there is damage to complex networks, we've already seen Nyn falter.

 

As for huntingtons, its a genetic condition. Depending on when an OP channeler detects it, course of treatment will have to be different. But RJ has said genetic diseases are OP-curable. For detection itself, the chorea will be obviously visible to the naked eye. And the inclusion bodies the Htt mutation causes should be detectable and removable. Right there, you can at least provide temporary relief to the patient by restoring motor function and higher cognitive function.

 

This is all assuming you can devle into complex networks. Which again I'm not convinced Nyn is capable of. Otherwise detection of chorea won't tell Nyn anything about where to look for the damage and imbalance of loop control, as she has no idea where the basal ganglia is, unlike Semirhage.

 

As for the rest, I can't conclusively say since all the functions of the protein are still not understood.

However, I have a hard time believing the OP works in that sense. It's more likely Nyn cured the poison victim and those of infectious diseases by simply repairing and regenerating where the damage has been caused while boosting the body's metabolism/immune response.

Go read the actual quote before you comment, why don't you?

 

As soon as she began the Delving, Nynaeve froze. She had expected to find Milisair's body taxed by exhaustion. She had expected to find disease, perhaps hunger.

She had not expected to find poison.

Cursing, suddenly alert, Nynaeve threw open the cell door and rushed inside. Yes, she could see it easily through the Delving. Tarchrot leaf. Nynaeve herself had given that to a hound who had needed to be put down. It was a common enough plant, and had a very bitter flavor. Not the best poison, as it had such an unpleasant taste, and yet had to be ingested.

Yes, it was a bad poison—unless the person you were poisoning was already captive and had no choice but to eat the food you gave her. Nynaeve began a Healing, weaving all five Powers, strangling the poison and strengthening Milisair's body. It was a relatively easy Healing, as tarchrot leaf wasn't particularly strong. You either had to use a lot of it— as she had with the hound—or you had to administer it several times for it to take effect. But if you did it slowly like that, the person you killed with it would seem to die naturally.

 

Several things to note. Nynaeve detects a foreign poison right away, and identifies it without missing a beat. Which means Delving isn't just showing her symptoms. She's basically doing some chemistry on the stuff the woman injected, but without having to actually collect samples. Next, she says straight out she's strangling the poison, and how the weakness of the poison makes her Healing easier.

 

And, the entire point of a poison, especially slow acting ones, is that they're not metabolized or excreted naturally. You can't simply improve normal body function and hope for the best! And you certainly can't achieve such a thing in a few minutes, without causing catastrophic inflammation.

 

Honestly this can be interpreted differently than how you have. For one her detection of the poison doesn't have to mean that she's seeing the molecule and recognizing it. How I read it is that Nyn sees the effects, the pattern of damage which she can sense through healing and from her experience of using herbs and OP together she'd know exactly what she's looking at. As for the strangling part what she could be doing is stimulating the phagocytes.

 

But it is more likely that I was mistaken in this case and that OP is more advanced in recognition of antigens. So that's a yes to the antibody like properties of healing weaves.

 

Lastly, you're yet to explain how Nynaeve can achieve regeneration, but not do other complex stuff. You don't seem to know that regeneration is the hard part.

 

 

Healing is magic. Cell regeneration is an innate ability of the weaves. Third age healers seem to work with stimulating and observing, really it's gut feeling and experience. Nyn isn't consciously controlling the receptors involved with regulating cell growth. If she did she would be speaking the language of genetic information and protein regulation...and she doesn't. What's difficult is knowing where to direct stimulation with the OP, and delving has its limits. For Nyn at least.

 

Also arthritis is not necessarily a symptom of autoimmune disease. It could be infectious.

Which this was not, since it was chronic trouble in a old woman! She didn't have an acute response one morning!

She was old? Perfect, because chronic arthritis is often a cause of natural degeneration over time through aging. No autoimmune disease required. So no, that doesn't explain Nyn being able to understand what a hyperactive immune system is and use OP accordingly to suppress it.

 

The fact is Nyn isn't even considered the best healer in her own age (not superior to Sumeko, obviously). Whereas Semirhage was a famed healer back when AS were far superior in their OP usage in all areas.

[Damer Sedai]

I disagree. The one advantage with cancer, no matter the staging or level of metastasis, is that you have the same undifferentiated cell to identify, isolate, and remove throughout the body- probably not that dissimilar to the tiny black hooks seen when Nynaeve was Removing the Taint (happy, Suttree?) . Paraneoplastic syndrome is typical secreted directly by the tumor or are a immune response to the tumor, and therefore you don't even have to address to hormonal changes... remove the tumor, treat the syndrome.

This would have been considered true... in the 1980s maybe. What we know of cancer stem cells now totally negates all this. And do remember that unlike the taint, cancer cells are going to be extremely similar to normal cells, with a few key differences. And unlike autoimmune conditions, cancer is a constant danger. DNA will mutate no matter what you do. Channeling the OP yourself might negate this for you, but unless Healers can somehow constantly keep watch on each cell in the body all life long, they have no way of destroying all dormant cancer stem cells, or preventing new cancers from forming.

There is no single concrete factor to remove, add, or 'fix' in autoimmunity, far too often.

And you think there is, in cancer?

Half the time Immunologists don't seem to understand the complex cascades that occurs in the 80+ autoimmune conditions.

Huh? They understand just fine. And you seem to forget that the same kind of disruption of normal signaling pathways cause cancer too.

We have less than mediocre tests to identify autoimmune conditions, and that speaks to how hard they are to identify, let alone treat.

Sadly, this is even more true of cancer. We can identify tumors. But many times, that's too late. Tumors are symptoms, and given how easily cancer can hide and stay dormant, it highly doubtful even the OP will catch it all the time.

I have no idea how Delving would frame and/or identify the problems. There are a lot more moving parts compared to cancers, as they are include dysfunctional B cells AND T cells in most cases, with very little to differentiate them from happy healthy B and T cells.

And how is this not true in the various lymphomas, leukemias, etc? You seem to think all cancers are solid tumors, whereas we know for a fact that just like autoimmunity is not one diseases, cancer too is a spectrum of diseases.

How would you use the OP to alter the memory B cells that carry the Ab that causes these conditions to persist?

The same as how you'd destroy cancer cells that also differ from other cells only a little?

How would you stop triggering of complement cascades, and antibody/antigen complexes, etc.?

You're throwing terminology here, but I'm not getting what you're saying. What do you mean "triggering" antibody-antigen complexes? And what makes you think serious immune issues are not associated with cancer? Paraneoplastic syndrome is one case, where immune cells generated to cancel cell surface antigens migrate to other parts of the body and start attacking there. And removal of the cancer doesn't solve this. This is basically an autoimmune condition secondary to cancer.

There are a lot more moving parts. here.

That's simply not true. You seem to have a very antiquated idea of cancer.

You can suppress the whole immune process, but if permanent that often seriously compromises the immune system, which is a big deal in a pre-industrial pre-plumbing society unless your OP healer is on your beck and call.

We're talking about the ability of the OP to cure autoimmune conditions. How does the complication of treating those conditions in a pre-industrial society come into play? A competent healer can easily ablate the bone marrow of the patient, and then regenerate marrow (bypassing graft-versus-host entirely).

 

Secondly, while current research is yet to reach this point, there are likely to be "nexus" points in signaling cascades related to immune response and cancer. But believe you me, the signaling pathways for immunity are going to prove easier to dissect (not easy, mind) than for development (and hence cancer). But with the OP? We have already established Nynaeve's ability to at least set complex neuronal singaling pathways right. Those are immensely complex too, and I really don't see autoimmunity (or even cancer, though this is probably the most most complex by a bit) present a much greater challenge.

 

Much simpler to look for, and identify, a single type of bad actor such as cancer,

No. Just no. Cancer is NOT "a single type" of anything. Cancer cells are not the "black bile" of Greek medicine!

no matter how microscopic, and then remove it; rather than wade into the swamp of autoimmune conditions.

 

PS - I know I am intentionally simplifying cancer and autoimmune disorders, but we have gone far afield already, and only a select few of us are interested I think.

Nope. What you're doing is simplifying cancer more than anything else.

 

Umm... wow. Didn't realize that my musings on OP treating real world conditions would lead to a lecture. Lucky me. Seriously, good stuff tho.

 

I realize now I was not being specific. I should have specifically said the OP could potentially treat SOME cancer better than autoimmunity, and yes, I was think your more basic solid tumors (say sarcoma). I apparently completely failed in my purpose in taking a basic 'explain to the patient' approach to describing cancer and how the One Power might approach it. I understand that Cancer is horrible complicated and gets more complex as we learn more about. I am aware that there are over 200 general types, and each type can have 50+ histological subtypes, and each subtype is caused by many different genetic mutations, each caused by several different methods of oncogenesis, and blah blah blah.

 

I also get that due to these differences, that the field of oncology has developed hundreds of protocol for treatment depending on Type, Subtype, histological markers, genetic markers, and Stage because these differences matter, and need to be address specific to their nature. I understand that Cancer isn't actually the same cell type everywhere you have tumor, that if we live long enough we will all get cancer due to cellular fragility at the nuclear level, and all the chestnuts of modern oncology . I understand that many of the ways that cancer causes illness is via immunomodulating effects, using a lot of the same biochemical cascades that occur in autoimmunity (and infections, and a dozen other conditions)

 

You seem to have decided that I had intended that the One Power would have a better job of addressing (either finding, or treating) early, microscopic levels of cancer sooner or as soon as we can with modern medicine, would have the ability to prevent cancer, and that it could be a panacea and make Randland cancer free: I do not believe it can do so, nor did I ever say that. I guess, to be more accurate, I should have said the OP could be used to put certain cancers in remission, by truly gifted healer, but maybe it can't even do that. I don't know. What I do think is that it should be easier to treat problems, once identified, on the cellular level or greater, than on the biochemical level. Most modern treatments (not necessarily the cutting edge stuff) for cancer still address the cancer tissue, not their chemical effects, do they not? While cancers operate at the chemical level too (and are generated at the chemical level as well), the ability to deal with them at the cellular level would mediate their toxic effects at a chemical level. I am unaware of practical treatments for autoimmunity that target directly the supposed disease tissue (thymus, bone marrow, peripheral cells).

 

I do see what you mean about Leukemia and other peripheral cell cancers having some of the same problems.

 

Maybe I have been out of training too long, but have you ever consulted an immunologist? I have almost never gotten a straight answer, or a satisfactory result. I am told its because its such a new science (compared to other medical fields). While the science of oncology might be incredibly complex, we least have come up with a system of methods to treat these cancer with varying levels of success of gaining remission. Can you say the same for most autoimmune diseases? Autologous bone marrow ablation and regeneration is no answer for most autoimmune conditions they rarely provide cure, because even when successful, remission usually occurs and relatively quickly. Heck, Allogenic bone marrow transplant (BMT) in autoimmunity often results in remission, despite supposedly implanting a "new" immune system of sorts. Last I knew (and I admit, it seems like you are more current on this material than I) BMT rates for treating most cancers were far more successful than BMT for autoimmunity, and given the relative dangers, not considered worth the risk. More importantly, I dont know that Healers in the third age understand biologic processes well enough to understand that destroying lymphoid tissue and regrowing it in the BM will treat either cancer or autoimmunity. In any case, It is my understanding that the lack of success if immunomodulators and BMt is why gene therapy is the new big thing that they are working on for autoimmune conditions (and yes, I know its big in development for oncology too)

 

There are reasons why autoimmune conditions are hard to treat, and harder to cure than most other medical problems. We don't even understand the immunologic genesis of the rapid increase in the rates of asthma, one of the most common of the immune mediated (allergic) diseases in the world; or rather, we understand the pathogenesis of the allergic components of asthma, but we don't know exactly why its getting worse and its been studied now for decades (the hygiene hypothesis certainly hasn't provided solutions like we thought it might)

 

HEre is my point:

I don't think Delving works like a microscope or high resolution imaging, giving microscopic level detail of actually organ function where the Healer can see exactly whats going on, the scope is just too great . I think sufficiently skilled Delving provides an abstract representation of the problem, and even Nynaeve's 5 power targeting Healing operates on the subject on a similar abstracted level. Nynaeve healing Logain in LOC was certainly more abstract, and Nynaeve's Removal of the taint in Naeff likely was as well, for all that it described "the brain". While I understand scientifically that the difference between healthy cellular tissue and cancerous tissue is small, I suspect sufficient healers talent for a OP chaneller would detection of instinctive wrongness (much like the way poison is detected) in the body compared to 'good' tissue. One identified,fine weaves of little fire, spirit, and perhaps water could destroy the offending tissue like chemo, presumably with less side effects. This theoretic mechanism is harder to apply to autoimmunity in my mind, but maybe I should look at each condition separately as they are so different, and their underlying mechanics, to see if that construct actually holds true. Or maybe not, I have spent too much time on this already tonight.

 

I realize I am often equating difficulty of treatment with modern medicine to difficultly of treating with the OP, and maybe that's fallacious. But its the place I have to work from

 

So, Fionwe... Not to pry, but any chance you are a oncology researcher, or physician? Don't answer if you don't feel like it, as I agree its none of my business, just curious

[fionwe1987]

If we're basing superior healing on taint removing/insanity healing the award goes to Ishamael.

Certainly, if True Power Healing is what we're discussing.

There is no point of further discussing this because Semirhage would have had no opportunity or reason to cure a DO taint, so it's essencially a null point.

The only reason I'm discussing the taint is because when Nynaeve removed it from Naeff, she also healed the damage it had caused, and restored normal neurological function with no side-effects. You have consistently ignored it, probably because it totally destroys your point that Nynaeve can't heal damage she cannot see. Unless you want to address actual points raised against your position, I don't really see the point of continuing this beyond this post.

On the subject of detecting the taint, if channelers can detect saidin/saidar weaves inside other's mind, why shouldn't they detect the taint?

That's the point. Not all channelers can do it. Graendal says its an incredibly rare Talent, reading compulsion. Do you want to continue shooting yourself in the foot?

And yet we know that Nyn can't delve and repair when the target is too intricate. Hence Rand's eye.

Once again, read the damn books! She says she wants to study it further before doing anything, not that she can't do anything at all. And since she can repair intricate brain damage, there's zero chance she can't repair intricate eye damage. If that is what this was, instead of being the normal reaction to extremely bright iights.

If the damage to the CNS is not visible (via say cerebral hemorrhage), she wouldn't be able to delve and fix it.

Alright, that's enough. Either give me the quote where Nynaeve cracked open Naeff's skull to visualize the damage, or quit the discussion. That was not damage by way of hemorrhage. That was tissue damage. Which she healed, locally, multiple times.

I'm not sure where you're making the antibody connections to the stroke, my point is simply that when there is damage to complex networks, we've already seen Nyn falter.

We have not.

This is all assuming you can devle into complex networks. Which again I'm not conviced Nyn is capable of.

Go ahead and prove that then.

Otherwise detection of chorea won't tell Nyn anything about where to look for the damage and imbalace of loop control, as she has no idea where the basal ganglia is, unlike Semirhage.

Lets see... the woman can heal brain damage that causes visual hallucinations and paranoia, without any clue that the occipital lobe or frontal lobe exist, but she needs to know about basal ganglia to deal with Huntingtons?

 

Honestly this can be interpreted differently than how you have. For one her detection of the poison doesn't have to mean that she's seeing the molecule and recognizing it. How I read it is that Nyn sees the effects, the pattern of damage which she can sense through healing and from her experience of using herbs and OP together she'd know exactly what she's looking at.

Did you at least read the quote I provided? Reading the book seems beyond you, but at least read what I type. Nynaeve says she could "see it easily through the Delving". Its stated right out.

As for the strangling part what she could be doing is stimulating the phagocytes.

What phagocytes?

But it is more likely that I was mistaken in this case and that OP is more advanced in recognition of antigens. So that's a yes to the antibody like properties of healing weaves.

Then that exact same thing can be used to deal with any sort of problem proteins. Be it in cancer, Huntingtons or lupus.

Healing is magic. Cell regeneration is an innate ability of the weaves.

Healing is magic enough to regenerate tissue, but not to modulate immunity? That's a totally random conclusion with no basis in fact.

 

RJ made a system that had some logic. It contains many impossibilities, but the system is mostly logical. Any kind of magic that can achieve regeneration can deal with signaling pathways in any other disease. Regenerative pathways are actively suppressed in human beings. If she can overcome that, she can overcome anything.

Third age healers seem to work with stimulating and observing, really it's gut feeling and experience. Nyn isn't conciously controling the receptors involved with regulating cell growth. If she did she would be speaking the language of genetic information and protien regulation...and she doesn't.

Wait... if you have perception, you magically get the language to go with it? Are you kidding me? By this logic, Siuan, who can modulate her weaves of fire perfectly to make the Amyrlin's tea just hot enough in New Spring must know thermodynamics and heat equations, eh? Or since Nynaeve can instinctively detect weather patterns and predict them, she can describe the weather exactly as a modern meteorologist would? Same with the Sea Folk? Can you show me where the Sea Folk talk about atmospheric pressure, low pressure systems, oceanic currents, etc? How're they able to modulate the entire planets weather without such technical terminology?

 

She was old? Perfect, because chronic arthritis is often a cause of degeneration over time. No autoimmune disease required. So no, that doesn't explain Nyn being able to understand what a hyperactive immune system is and use OP accordingly to suppress it.

So wait. Someone who can reverse degeneration of cartilage cannot muster the ability to modulate the immune system?

[fionwe1987]

Umm... wow. Didn't realize that my musings on OP treating real world conditions would lead to a lecture. Lucky me. Seriously, good stuff tho.

 

I realize now I was not being specific. I should have specifically said the OP could potentially treat SOME cancer better than autoimmunity, and yes, I was think your more basic solid tumors (say sarcoma). I apparently completely failed in my purpose in taking a basic 'explain to the patient' approach to describing cancer and how the One Power might approach it. I understand that Cancer is horrible complicated and gets more complex as we learn more about. I am aware that there are over 200 general types, and each type can have 50+ histological subtypes, and each subtype is caused by many different genetic mutations, each caused by several different methods of oncogenesis, and blah blah blah.

 

I also get that due to these differences, that the field of oncology has developed hundreds of protocol for treatment depending on Type, Subtype, histological markers, genetic markers, and Stage becauses these differences matter, and need to be address speicifc to their nature. I understand that Cancer isnt actually the same cell type everywhere you have tumor, that if we live long enough we will all get cancer due to cellular fragility at the nuclear level, and all the chestnuts of modern oncology . I understand that many of the ways that cancer causes illness is via immunomodulating effects, using a lot of the same biochemical cascades that occur in autoimmunity (and infections, and a dozen other conditions)

 

You seem to have decided that I had intended that the One Power would have a better job of addressing (either finding, or treating) early, microscopic levels of cancer than we can with modern medicine, would have the ability to prevent cancer, and that it could be a panacea and make Randland cancer free: I do not believe it can do so, nor did I ever say that. I guess, to be more accurate, I should have said the OP could be used to put certain cancers in remission, by truly gifted healer, but maybe it can't even do that. I dont know. What I do think is that it should be easier to treat problems, once identified, on the cellular level, than on the biochemical level. Most modern treatments (not necessarily the cutting edge stuff) for cancer still address the cancer tissue do they not?While cancers operate at the chemical level too (and are generated at the chemical level as well), if one is able to deal with them at the cellular level their toxic effects at a chemical level could be mediated. I am unaware of practical treatments for autoimmunity that target directly the supposed disease tissue (thymus, bone marrow, perphieral cells).

 

I do see what you mean about Leukemia and other peripheral cell cancers having some of the same problems.

 

Maybe I have been out of training too long, but have you ever consulted an immunologist? I have almost never gotten a straight answer, or a satisfactory result. I am told its becuase its such a new science (compared to other medical fields). While the science of oncology might be incredibly complex, we al least have come up with a system of methods to treat these cancer wih varying levels of success of gaining remission. Can you say the same for most autoimmune diseases? Autologous bone marrow ablation and regeneration is no answer for most autoimmune conditions they rarely provide cure, because even when successful, remission usually occurs and relatively quickly. Heck, Allogenic bone marrow transplant (BMT) in autoimmunity often results in remission, despite supposedly implanting a "new" immune system of sorts. Last I knew (and I admit, it seems like you are more current on this material than I) BMT rates for treating most cancers were far more successful than BMT for autoimmunity, and given the relative dangers, not considered worth the risk. More importantly, I dont know that Healers in the third age understand biologic processes well enough to understand that destroying lymphoid tissue and regrowing it in the BM will treat either cancer or autoimmunity. In any case, It is my understanding that the lack of success if immunomodulators and BMt is why gene therapy is the new big thing that they are working on for autoimmune conditions (and yes, I know its big in development for oncology too)

 

There are reasons why autoimmune conditions are hard to treat, and harder to cure than most other medical problems. We dont even understand the immunologic genesis of the rapid increase in the rates of asthma, one of the most common of the immune mediated (allergic) diseases in the world; or rather, we undertand the pathogenesis of the allergic components of asthma, but we don't know exactly why its getting worse and its been studied now for decades (the hygeine hypothesis certainly hastn provided solutuions)

 

HEre is my point:

I dont think Delving works like a microscope or high resolution imaging, giving microcopic level detail of actually organ function where the Healer can see exactly whats going on, the scope is just too great . I think sufficiently skilled Delving provides an abstract representation of the problem, and even Nynaeve's 5 power targeting Healing operates on the subject on a similar abstacted level. Nynaeve healing Logain in LOC was certainly more abstract, and Nynaeve's Removal of the taint in Naeff likely was as well, for all that it described "the brain". While I understand scientifically that the difference between healthy cellular tissue and cancerous tissue is small, I suspect sufficient healers talent for a OP chaneller would detection of instinctive wrongness (much like the way poison is detected) in the body compared to 'good' tissue. One identified,fine weaves of little fire, spirit, and perhaps water could destroy the offending tissue like chemo, presumably with less side effects. This theoretic mechanism is harder to apply to autoimmunity in my mind, but maybe I should look at each condition seperately as they are so different, and the underlying mechanics, to see if that construct actually holds true. Or maybe not, I have spent too much time on this already tonight.

 

I realize I am often equating difficultly of treatment with modern medicine to difficultly of treating with the OP,, and maybe thats fallacious. But its the place I have to work from

 

So, Fionwe... Not to pry, but any chance you are a oncology researcher, or physician? Dont answer if you dont feel like it, as I agree its none of my business, just curious

You hit the nail on the head on the second paragraph from the end. You are using current levels of difficulty in treatment to extrapolate actual difficulty. But, for example, our greater knowledge of cancer as opposed to autoimmunity is because cancer research has been more intensely funded, and has much greater implications for our society, so attracts a lot more scientific talent. Many autoimmune disease are chronic, and even manageable with treatment, something you can hardly say about cancer.

 

But if you look at Nynaeve's achievements till now as a basic level, we've seen her treat what can, at best, be described as immensely complex neurological syndromes, we've seen her show amazing abilities with regeneration of all sorts of tissue, we've seen her deal with toxins, with powerful infections, with serious trauma... in this mix is all the tools needed to deal with autoimmunity. If you believe that some instinct will warn modern Aes Sedai of cancer cells, why won't the same be active in detecting immune cells damaging the wrong targets in excessive quantities?

 

Further, since RJ has said straight out that the OP can deal with genetic defects, that should put to rest any questions on whether the OP can work at a molecular level. You don't get much tinier than mutations in genes. As for whether Nynaeve operates at such levels, her detection of Rand's eye problem after Semi's fireball, her healing of Naeff and most of all her perfect Healing of Rand's hand prove that she does. If you can make the body regenerate muscle, skin, capillaries and nerves, and do so in a way that the entire regeneration sticks to the boundaries of the undamaged body part that existed before, you can deal with any sort of molecular and cellular issues. The regeneration of an arm is just insanely complicated and will require tweaking things at a molecular level.

 

As for me, I've done cancer research in the past. I work on neuronal development and signaling now.

[driedraspberry]

There is no point of further discussing this because Semirhage would have had no opportunity or reason to cure a DO taint, so it's essencially a null point.

The only reason I'm discussing the taint is because when Nynaeve removed it from Naeff, she also healed the damage it had caused, and restored normal neurological function with no side-effects. You have consistently ignored it, probably because it totally destroys your point that Nynaeve can't heal damage she cannot see. Unless you want to address actual points raised against your position, I don't really see the point of continuing this beyond this post.

On the subject of detecting the taint, if channelers can detect saidin/saidar weaves inside other's mind, why shouldn't they detect the taint?

That's the point. Not all channelers can do it. Graendal says its an incredibly rare Talent, reading compulsion. Do you want to continue shooting yourself in the foot?

 

And yet we know that Nyn can't delve and repair when the target is too intricate. Hence Rand's eye.

Once again, read the damn books! She says she wants to study it further before doing anything, not that she can't do anything at all. And since she can repair intricate brain damage, there's zero chance she can't repair intricate eye damage. If that is what this was, instead of being the normal reaction to extremely bright iights.

If the damage to the CNS is not visible (via say cerebral hemorrhage), she wouldn't be able to delve and fix it.

Alright, that's enough. Either give me the quote where Nynaeve cracked open Naeff's skull to visualize the damage, or quit the discussion. That was not damage by way of hemorrhage. That was tissue damage. Which she healed, locally, multiple times.

I'm not sure where you're making the antibody connections to the stroke, my point is simply that when there is damage to complex networks, we've already seen Nyn falter.

We have not.

This is all assuming you can devle into complex networks. Which again I'm not conviced Nyn is capable of.

Go ahead and prove that then.

Otherwise detection of chorea won't tell Nyn anything about where to look for the damage and imbalace of loop control, as she has no idea where the basal ganglia is, unlike Semirhage.

Lets see... the woman can heal brain damage that causes visual hallucinations and paranoia, without any clue that the occipital lobe or frontal lobe exist, but she needs to know about basal ganglia to deal with Huntingtons?

 

Dude, the point is that Nyn didn't remove the taint from Naeff blind. In fact I could point you to chapter 33 tGS where the description she uses for detecting compulsion (the hooks in the brain tissue) is the same as the one she uses for the taint. There is no evidence of Nyn's delving into an intricate network such as CNS and repairing damage without a clear map. She can sense the taint, remove the hooks and cure the tissue. If she could delve into the CNS blind, fixing Rand's eye would've been easy for her. What she literally told Rand was that it was too dangerous and she would risk blinding him. Yes she has to study on it, but she didn't fix his eyes so that's still no proof she can. All we know that she couldn't and didn't.

 

Healing is magic enough to regenerate tissue, but not to modulate immunity? That's a totally random conclusion with no basis in fact.

 

RJ made a system that had some logic. It contains many impossibilities, but the system is mostly logical. Any kind of magic that can achieve regeneration can deal with signaling pathways in any other disease. Regenerative pathways are actively suppressed in human beings. If she can overcome that, she can overcome anything.

Third age healers seem to work with stimulating and observing, really it's gut feeling and experience. Nyn isn't conciously controling the receptors involved with regulating cell growth. If she did she would be speaking the language of genetic information and protien regulation...and she doesn't.

Wait... if you have perception, you magically get the language to go with it? Are you kidding me? By this logic, Siuan, who can modulate her weaves of fire perfectly to make the Amyrlin's tea just hot enough in New Spring must know thermodynamics and heat equations, eh? Or since Nynaeve can instinctively detect weather patterns and predict them, she can describe the weather exactly as a modern meteorologist would? Same with the Sea Folk? Can you show me where the Sea Folk talk about atmospheric pressure, low pressure systems, oceanic currents, etc? How're they able to modulate the entire planets weather without such technical terminology?

 

Like I said it's innate qualities of weaves, not conscious control. The problem is in biological systems, if something is beyond Nyn's delving, she won't be able to use knowledge to her advantage. This is where Semirhage is superior.

 

 

She was old? Perfect, because chronic arthritis is often a cause of degeneration over time. No autoimmune disease required. So no, that doesn't explain Nyn being able to understand what a hyperactive immune system is and use OP accordingly to suppress it.

So wait. Someone who can reverse degeneration of cartilage cannot muster the ability to modulate the immune system?

 

Detecting an hyperactive immune system is the problem. She can't use delving to see damage and direct her weaves, because there is none. She could repair symptoms of autoimmune disease, but not cure it.There is a limit to delving and Nyn doesn't knowledge to assist her when she hits it. And Semirhage superiority...

 

edit:

Alright I give in. I see your qualifications are far higher than mine for this discussion. I'm only an undergrad, so still a long way to go. :)

[DaoineSidhe]

I voted Semirhage, but have since changed to this:

 

-Sumeko - Greatest Talent for Healing

-Nynaeve - Greatest Healer: She has innovated Healing Weaves more so than anyone else seen so far in the WoT. Even if her Talent is out-stripped by Sumeko, her "Inventions", and their meaning to healing as whole, gives her the title as Greatest Healer, IMO

[Damer Sedai]

But if you look at Nynaeve's achievements till now as a basic level, we've seen her treat what can, at best, be described as immensely complex neurological syndromes, we've seen her show amazing abilities with regeneration of all sorts of tissue, we've seen her deal with toxins, with powerful infections, with serious trauma... in this mix is all the tools needed to deal with autoimmunity. If you believe that some instinct will warn modern Aes Sedai of cancer cells, why won't the same be active in detecting immune cells damaging the wrong targets in excessive quantities?

Oh I dont think its instinct, perse.. I just think its a different set of tools that recognize the problem compared to what we are used to. And I think the lack of efficacy of BMT as I noted above, suggests that simply addressing the problem B/T cells in autoimmune disorders may be insufficient. But perhaps you are right, I will think on it.

 

Further, since RJ has said straight out that the OP can deal with genetic defects, that should put to rest any questions on whether the OP can work at a molecular level. You don't get much tinier than mutations in genes. As for whether Nynaeve operates at such levels, her detection of Rand's eye problem after Semi's fireball, her healing of Naeff and most of all her perfect Healing of Rand's hand prove that she does. If you can make the body regenerate muscle, skin, capillaries and nerves, and do so in a way that the entire regeneration sticks to the boundaries of the undamaged body part that existed before, you can deal with any sort of molecular and cellular issues. The regeneration of an arm is just insanely complicated and will require tweaking things at a molecular level.

I do totally agree that Healing wounds w/ the One Power is insanely complex, and is glossed over. I was not aware of the RJ quote about genetic disorders, so thanks for that. I am note sure I am crazy about the implications of the scope though, perhaps it is limited only by the Talent, Power, Innovation, and Determination of the Channeler... That really does open up unlimited possibilities, such as hand and eye transplants for certain heroes, and well, pretty much anything. Why couldn't the OP heal madness, per RJ in that case, I wonder... just modulate dopaminergic and glutaminergic release in certain parts of brain, and poof, no more schizophrenia :)

 

In some ways, it seems arbitrary that Death is so final given that more complex miracles are produced with regularity (I am thinking of course, of specific cases where a subject that had died within minutes, such as the wagon driver that was bit by the 2 step snake in the Waste in TSR - Moiraine still couldnt get there in time despite seeing the man fall). A little fire and spirit to the heart at certain "intensity" (Clear!) as long as the brain hasn't been oxygen starved too long... heck, use the power to artificially oxygenate and circulate the cardiopulmonary system while you are solving the underlying problem. You may need a team of Nynaeve, SUmeko, Damer, and Samitsu, but you could do some ridiculous things with enough power and know how, even fix the 3 day dead. There is probably some overriding cosmology dictates on the boundries for the dead, I guess.

 

As for me, I've done cancer research in the past. I work on neuronal development and signaling now.

Gotcha and thanks You had the zeal I see in the oncology folks when we get too blase about cancer diagnosis and treatment. I am in practice now, so apologies for being rusty on some of the material.

[elric]

btw it best healer, not best OP healer.

 

u think Ishi a contender go ahead make your point :)

u think the herbalist (mother something) that shelter the girl in Tyr have a case -> proove it :)

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares

there few speicific points i disgrea with u.

even if 3 weave healing is more economic on the healer i douth Semitsu out do Nyn due to Nyn beeing MUCH stronger -> vast more access to the OP

The books make clear that mere access to quantities of the OP do not make one a better Healer - a strong AS with little to no Talent for Healing would struggle to Heal a bruise, while a weak AS with a massive Talent could outclass people who were several times stronger than her.

 

the breakiung happen AFTER the winover the shadow, so the only threat WAS the crazed male cxhannelers, and it was never said that all AoL AS died in the breaking , we know of atleast 3 tat survived with the Gen-Aial, there was the 2 male who created the EYE, that cuncil who give the green man the horn, the AS who created Far -Medding...

The War of the Power did not end on the day of the Strike. The Strike on Shayol Ghul itself makes that clear - Latra Posae Decume earned her nickname of Shadar Nor during the decades of conflict after the Strike. Even if we didn't have the Strike, it's a reasonable assumption that fighting carried on for some time - the Shadow had armies of Chosen, Darkfriends and Shadowspawn. They didn't vanish over night. Fighting continued until the Breaking forced them to abandon it in favour of the fight for survival. And all of those events you list are Breaking era. The Breaking, remember, lasted centuries, and probably didn't end overnight so much as peter out. No AS who was alive at the end of the Breaking was there to see the beginning.

 

3. You feel that the ability to Delve, heal stilling, Removing the Taint, and removing compulsion are of very limited use compared to Healing Wounds and Illness (inferred from saying Sum vs/ Nyns knowledge base are very different); I disagree

Bear in mind that two of them are conditions specific to channelers, and one to only male channelers, and with a cause that no longer exists so that while it might have applications for the time being, when everyone is cured of the taint, that ability becomes redundant. On the other hand, the ability to Heal a broken leg, while less impressive, is more useful because it is a problem far more likely to be encountered.

 

4. You argue that I cannot assume that Sumeko cannot do what Nynaeve does, because the only difference is a lack of opportunity; I counter that you cannot assume Sumeko can do perform as well, for the same reasons.

But I'm not assuming that. I'm pointing out the lack of evidence - if we know Nynaeve can do something, but we have no evidence either way about Sumeko's ability, how can we say, with any degree of reliability, that Nynaeve can do it better? If we have nothing with regards to her ability, no comparison is possible. (That same is true of your hypothetical regarding you writing WoT - we can say how well RJ did, because we have the books. You might do better, but we cannot say either way as we don't have any books from you to judge.)

 

btw it best healer, not best OP healer.

OP Healing outstrips herbal remedies to a significant extent. Non-OP Healing has certain advantages - it can be used on oneself, it can be used where there is no access to the OP, and it can be used when you don't want your OP use to be detected, and lack either the strength or knowledge to hide your use of the OP with reversed weaves. Outside of those specific areas, it is comprehensively outclassed by OP Healing. Hence, arguing for a non-channeler is going to be a damn near impossible position to argue a convincing case for.

[Whizbang]

Unless the non-OP-healer discovers the Elixir of Youth, or possibly a cure for impotence that can give you an erection for longer than four hours without the need to call the doctors.

[elric]

Mr Ares.

i doont argue that power = healing :)

just countering the fatigue affect regarding old healing my Semit and new healing by Nyn, Nyn have more power so will need much more effort to be fatigue.

 

all:

i agrea that no channeler have a snow ball chance in hell ... but if u think u can back it ->go on :))).

the point it -> it not limited-> one power /true power/ no power... all are in if they can be backed by the books :)))

[Damer Sedai]

3. You feel that the ability to Delve, heal stilling, Removing the Taint, and removing compulsion are of very limited use compared to Healing Wounds and Illness (inferred from saying Sum vs/ Nyns knowledge base are very different); I disagree

Bear in mind that two of them are conditions specific to channelers, and one to only male channelers, and with a cause that no longer exists so that while it might have applications for the time being, when everyone is cured of the taint, that ability becomes redundant. On the other hand, the ability to Heal a broken leg, while less impressive, is more useful because it is a problem far more likely to be encountered.

 

Aren't we asking the question, intrinsically, who is the best Healer right now, post TOM? Context in these discussions are always important. Otherwise I can just say, Nynaeve (or Damer), end of discussion, based purely on her acceleration of accumulated skills, she/he should far surpass Sumeko when she/he is 300 as well. I know that 2 of the specialty healing weaves are specific to channelers, but given the condition of the world and the 1000+ Ashaman that all have the taint to some degree or another, doesn't that skill have significant fake-world applications, with possibly bigger implications than whether Bill Al'Smith has a perfectly healed broken leg or not? IN addition, we know one can be Tainted in other ways - in TEOTW, Moiraine note that channeling with sufficient power in the waves could infect her as well. No to mention the Dark One is';t done yet - infecting others (possibly the 13x13 method?) is one of his big tools against team Light, and the applications of Taint removal have great potential extend beyond current practice.

 

I agree that Healing an injured leg is far more practical, as is healing a stab wound, or poison, or the plague; but clearly that is something almost all OP healers on the list can do. So the choice we have to make is between A: the narrow set of conditions where Sumeko's superior skill in the areas of traditional healing over Nynaeve's skills, and when that difference actually matter s B: the narrow application of the Nynaeve's specialized forms of healing that Sumeko, at this time, isnt able to perform. Plus other supportive factors (for me, at least)

 

4. You argue that I cannot assume that Sumeko cannot do what Nynaeve does, because the only difference is a lack of opportunity; I counter that you cannot assume Sumeko can do perform as well, for the same reasons.

But I'm not assuming that. I'm pointing out the lack of evidence - if we know Nynaeve can do something, but we have no evidence either way about Sumeko's ability, how can we say, with any degree of reliability, that Nynaeve can do it better? If we have nothing with regards to her ability, no comparison is possible. (That same is true of your hypothetical regarding you writing WoT - we can say how well RJ did, because we have the books. You might do better, but we cannot say either way as we don't have any books from you to judge.)

 

I think we both agree that what we are both saying about the possibilities of what Sumeko can and can't do regarding Nynaeve's discoveries are strictly true. We dont have the data, so comparisons cannot be made. However, the burden of proof is on the subject that has never accomplished said possible task. I agree you strictly cannot make any comparison between my writing and RJ because we lack information, but people will find the suggestion that the possibility that my WOT = RJs version suspect at best.

 

Anyway, we have clarified each others positions as much is going to happen, I would bet. I now have more appreciation for Team Sumeko, but I am going to stick with my girl by a narrow margin.