The top 10 fighters with the OP/TP

[Amandera]

Compiling such a list is more difficult than it is compiling a list of strength alone, in my opinion. So many variables. Same/different sex, short/long range, and so on might give different results. Maybe channeler A can defeat channeler B, and B can defeat channeler C, but C would've defeated channeler A ?

 

If you were to extend the list so we could include two Rivers men (other than Rand), do we include their reluctance to hurt woman?

Things like this are just too speculative and I think should be ignored. My own criteria are the amount of Power a person can hold, where their skills lie (healer vs. fighter etc), experience and knowledge.

[driedraspberry]

It depends what we are talking about here. There are many ways to fight and it depends on the situation, people would react differently. Also combat can involve many other non-combat weaves. Ultimately, I think the ranking is pointless, but here is my general rankings.

 

1. Rand and Moridin - Rand for obvious reasons, Moridin because of the True Power and his nihilistic insanity. I don't rate him that highly, Elan was not a fighter, but his lack of care for...anything... makes him dangerous.

 

2. Demandred - He was a soldier and a general. The second greatest man of the Age. The Cleansing isn't a good example for any of them. None of them wanted to be there, with the power that was being used. Beyond showing up so as not to get punished, Demandred didn't really care much. So when he was attacked, he just bailed. It wasn't worth it (to him), thus him thinking he shouldn't have to fight. Also, just because he does not want to fight, does not mean he can't. In a way, it is much like Mat. Mat would have the same reaction, but Mat is kickass when pushed to it.

 

3. Cyndane - I would have put Lanfear on par with Demandred, but with Cyndane's loss of strength, she doesn't have the power for it. But she is still extremely deadly, the most dangerous female channeller alive. She pretty much make a mockery of Alivia (in fact it is the most dangerous we have seen one of the Chosen). Alivia has like 400 or so years of being a weapon, she has a powerful angreal that makes her stronger than Lanfear was, not to mention Cyndane, and she had a ter'angreal similar to the foxhead. Still, Cyndane escapes without a scratch and manages to burn Alivia's arm up. Nice work.

 

4. Graendal - Graendal is very powerful, a skilled weaver and a fast thinker.

 

5. Taim we cannot be sure of, so this is really a semi-educated guess. However, he is very strong in the Power and I assume has been given training by Ishamael or one of the other Forsaken. We have seen his teaching of Asha'man to be quite effective in the destruction department.

 

6. Logain/Alivia - Logain is below Taim, he doesn't really have much experience with the Power, however, he is powerful, and with knowledge gained from LTT in KoD, he is dangerous. But I can't really put him above Moggy or Nynaeve because we have not seen anything to think he is skilled beyond being powerful. (although he most likely is) Alivia isn't that great. She can destroy, but has little other skill. A dangerous one, but not worthy of a higher position.

 

7. Mogehdien Nynaeve - Moggy because of her AoL knowledge, no matter her cowardice, she is still very, very dangerous. Nynaeve because of her strength and experience. She has fought many channeller-battles, while she is not very destructive, that experience is vital

 

8. Cadsuane - not all that powerful, but extremely skilled. The abundance of male channellers she has "handled" gives her much credit.

 

9. Egwene/ Narishma /Flinn - Egwene is pretty good at destroying stuff, but a level below the top tiers in Power and limited experience with channeller v channeller combat. Narishma is mostly another semi-educated guess, but he is reasonably powerful, which I would equate to about Egwene level, he fought at Dumai's wells, in the Altara-Seanchan campaign, Manor attack. He has been with Rand for a long time, and likely picked up a bunch of weaves. Flinn is relatively powerful (the most powerful in Rand's cadre and perhaps only Logain, Rand and Taim are stronger - we don't really know) and pretty skilled. He was given command of the circle at the Cleansing and proved himself to be apt.

 

10. Aviendha - Aiel know battle, the instinct alone makes them more dangerous. Aviendha is known to be a quick learner and as powerful as Egwene/Elayne. A step below because she hasn't really had the experience Egwene has with battle. However, she is certainly dangerous.

 

None of the others are really noteworthy, not to be in the top fighters list. Elayne is pregnant and does nothing much besides being captured/injured.

 

This seem about right to me.

 

I concur as well.

 

Definitely a good ranking chart.

 

Going by your list though the top 10 individual OP fighters are

 

1&2. Rand, Moridin

3. Dem

4. Cynd

5. Graendal

6. Taim

7&8. Logain, Alivia

9&10. Nyn, Moghy

 

Although if we were to count the dead things would get much more complicated.

[MasterAblar]

It depends what we are talking about here. There are many ways to fight and it depends on the situation, people would react differently. Also combat can involve many other non-combat weaves. Ultimately, I think the ranking is pointless, but here is my general rankings.

 

1. Rand and Moridin - Rand for obvious reasons, Moridin because of the True Power and his nihilistic insanity. I don't rate him that highly, Elan was not a fighter, but his lack of care for...anything... makes him dangerous.

 

2. Demandred - He was a soldier and a general. The second greatest man of the Age. The Cleansing isn't a good example for any of them. None of them wanted to be there, with the power that was being used. Beyond showing up so as not to get punished, Demandred didn't really care much. So when he was attacked, he just bailed. It wasn't worth it (to him), thus him thinking he shouldn't have to fight. Also, just because he does not want to fight, does not mean he can't. In a way, it is much like Mat. Mat would have the same reaction, but Mat is kickass when pushed to it.

 

3. Cyndane - I would have put Lanfear on par with Demandred, but with Cyndane's loss of strength, she doesn't have the power for it. But she is still extremely deadly, the most dangerous female channeller alive. She pretty much make a mockery of Alivia (in fact it is the most dangerous we have seen one of the Chosen). Alivia has like 400 or so years of being a weapon, she has a powerful angreal that makes her stronger than Lanfear was, not to mention Cyndane, and she had a ter'angreal similar to the foxhead. Still, Cyndane escapes without a scratch and manages to burn Alivia's arm up. Nice work.

 

4. Graendal - Graendal is very powerful, a skilled weaver and a fast thinker.

 

5. Taim we cannot be sure of, so this is really a semi-educated guess. However, he is very strong in the Power and I assume has been given training by Ishamael or one of the other Forsaken. We have seen his teaching of Asha'man to be quite effective in the destruction department.

 

6. Logain/Alivia - Logain is below Taim, he doesn't really have much experience with the Power, however, he is powerful, and with knowledge gained from LTT in KoD, he is dangerous. But I can't really put him above Moggy or Nynaeve because we have not seen anything to think he is skilled beyond being powerful. (although he most likely is) Alivia isn't that great. She can destroy, but has little other skill. A dangerous one, but not worthy of a higher position.

 

7. Mogehdien Nynaeve - Moggy because of her AoL knowledge, no matter her cowardice, she is still very, very dangerous. Nynaeve because of her strength and experience. She has fought many channeller-battles, while she is not very destructive, that experience is vital

 

8. Cadsuane - not all that powerful, but extremely skilled. The abundance of male channellers she has "handled" gives her much credit.

 

9. Egwene/ Narishma /Flinn - Egwene is pretty good at destroying stuff, but a level below the top tiers in Power and limited experience with channeller v channeller combat. Narishma is mostly another semi-educated guess, but he is reasonably powerful, which I would equate to about Egwene level, he fought at Dumai's wells, in the Altara-Seanchan campaign, Manor attack. He has been with Rand for a long time, and likely picked up a bunch of weaves. Flinn is relatively powerful (the most powerful in Rand's cadre and perhaps only Logain, Rand and Taim are stronger - we don't really know) and pretty skilled. He was given command of the circle at the Cleansing and proved himself to be apt.

 

10. Aviendha - Aiel know battle, the instinct alone makes them more dangerous. Aviendha is known to be a quick learner and as powerful as Egwene/Elayne. A step below because she hasn't really had the experience Egwene has with battle. However, she is certainly dangerous.

 

None of the others are really noteworthy, not to be in the top fighters list. Elayne is pregnant and does nothing much besides being captured/injured.

 

This seem about right to me.

 

I concur as well.

 

Definitely a good ranking chart.

 

Going by your list though the top 10 individual OP fighters are Rand, Moridin, Dem, Cynd, Graendal, Taim, Logain, Alivia, Nyn and Moghy. Although if we were to count the dead things would get much more complicated.

 

Actually I think it would be far simpler. It would just be Rand and the 9 top Forsaken. You can already kick Moghedien and Asmodean out. Taim might be able to sneak in at 10th, but we don't really know enough about him.

[driedraspberry]

It depends what we are talking about here. There are many ways to fight and it depends on the situation, people would react differently. Also combat can involve many other non-combat weaves. Ultimately, I think the ranking is pointless, but here is my general rankings.

 

1. Rand and Moridin - Rand for obvious reasons, Moridin because of the True Power and his nihilistic insanity. I don't rate him that highly, Elan was not a fighter, but his lack of care for...anything... makes him dangerous.

 

2. Demandred - He was a soldier and a general. The second greatest man of the Age. The Cleansing isn't a good example for any of them. None of them wanted to be there, with the power that was being used. Beyond showing up so as not to get punished, Demandred didn't really care much. So when he was attacked, he just bailed. It wasn't worth it (to him), thus him thinking he shouldn't have to fight. Also, just because he does not want to fight, does not mean he can't. In a way, it is much like Mat. Mat would have the same reaction, but Mat is kickass when pushed to it.

 

3. Cyndane - I would have put Lanfear on par with Demandred, but with Cyndane's loss of strength, she doesn't have the power for it. But she is still extremely deadly, the most dangerous female channeller alive. She pretty much make a mockery of Alivia (in fact it is the most dangerous we have seen one of the Chosen). Alivia has like 400 or so years of being a weapon, she has a powerful angreal that makes her stronger than Lanfear was, not to mention Cyndane, and she had a ter'angreal similar to the foxhead. Still, Cyndane escapes without a scratch and manages to burn Alivia's arm up. Nice work.

 

4. Graendal - Graendal is very powerful, a skilled weaver and a fast thinker.

 

5. Taim we cannot be sure of, so this is really a semi-educated guess. However, he is very strong in the Power and I assume has been given training by Ishamael or one of the other Forsaken. We have seen his teaching of Asha'man to be quite effective in the destruction department.

 

6. Logain/Alivia - Logain is below Taim, he doesn't really have much experience with the Power, however, he is powerful, and with knowledge gained from LTT in KoD, he is dangerous. But I can't really put him above Moggy or Nynaeve because we have not seen anything to think he is skilled beyond being powerful. (although he most likely is) Alivia isn't that great. She can destroy, but has little other skill. A dangerous one, but not worthy of a higher position.

 

7. Mogehdien Nynaeve - Moggy because of her AoL knowledge, no matter her cowardice, she is still very, very dangerous. Nynaeve because of her strength and experience. She has fought many channeller-battles, while she is not very destructive, that experience is vital

 

8. Cadsuane - not all that powerful, but extremely skilled. The abundance of male channellers she has "handled" gives her much credit.

 

9. Egwene/ Narishma /Flinn - Egwene is pretty good at destroying stuff, but a level below the top tiers in Power and limited experience with channeller v channeller combat. Narishma is mostly another semi-educated guess, but he is reasonably powerful, which I would equate to about Egwene level, he fought at Dumai's wells, in the Altara-Seanchan campaign, Manor attack. He has been with Rand for a long time, and likely picked up a bunch of weaves. Flinn is relatively powerful (the most powerful in Rand's cadre and perhaps only Logain, Rand and Taim are stronger - we don't really know) and pretty skilled. He was given command of the circle at the Cleansing and proved himself to be apt.

 

10. Aviendha - Aiel know battle, the instinct alone makes them more dangerous. Aviendha is known to be a quick learner and as powerful as Egwene/Elayne. A step below because she hasn't really had the experience Egwene has with battle. However, she is certainly dangerous.

 

None of the others are really noteworthy, not to be in the top fighters list. Elayne is pregnant and does nothing much besides being captured/injured.

 

This seem about right to me.

 

I concur as well.

 

Definitely a good ranking chart.

 

Going by your list though the top 10 individual OP fighters are Rand, Moridin, Dem, Cynd, Graendal, Taim, Logain, Alivia, Nyn and Moghy. Although if we were to count the dead things would get much more complicated.

 

Actually I think it would be far simpler. It would just be Rand and the 9 top Forsaken. You can already kick Moghedien and Asmodean out. Taim might be able to sneak in at 10th, but we don't really know enough about him.

 

True, but how easy is ranking the Forsaken amongst themselves? Rahvin and Sammael about equal? Both below Dem? Is Aginor above Dem? And we don't know much about Be'lal...

 

And we have contradictions. Moiraine says Aginor was close to Ish and Lanfear in strength, but Dem's scorn for him hardly suggests that.

[MasterAblar]

Definitely a good ranking chart.

 

Going by your list though the top 10 individual OP fighters are Rand, Moridin, Dem, Cynd, Graendal, Taim, Logain, Alivia, Nyn and Moghy. Although if we were to count the dead things would get much more complicated.

 

Actually I think it would be far simpler. It would just be Rand and the 9 top Forsaken. You can already kick Moghedien and Asmodean out. Taim might be able to sneak in at 10th, but we don't really know enough about him.

 

True, but how easy is ranking the Forsaken amongst themselves? Rahvin and Sammael about equal? Both below Dem? Is Aginor above Dem? And we don't know much about Ba'lal...

 

Well, personally, I'd have, in no particular order: Rand, Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Graendal, Rahvin, Semirhage.

 

That leaves 2 spots open. Take out Moghedien and Asmodean, and you have Aginor, Bel'al, Balthamel, and Mesaana. The most respected amongst those is Bel'al, but the Forsaken didn't necessarily judge by how good of a fighter you are. In a face to face battle I think you'd have to give a spot to Aginor simply because of his immense strength. Mesaana was not a fighter, and there's not much to say about Balthamel apart that he was "quite strong" in the power. I'd give the last spot to Bel'al.

 

So you'd have: Rand, Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Graendal, Rahvin, Semirhage, Aginor and Bel'al. Keeping in mind that Taim might be able to sneak in there.

 

That said, the Forsaken are all deadly so apart from duels like Lanfear vs Moghedien, or Demandred vs Asmodean, they're all fairly close anyway.

[Nightstrike]

That said, the Forsaken are all deadly so apart from duels like Lanfear vs Moghedien,or Demandred vs Asmodean, they're all fairly close anyway.

That's what I've been thinking too. If the better fighter had a bad day, then the worse fighter could probably defeat the other. Especially if they cheated and went for Balefire or some such.

[driedraspberry]

Definitely a good ranking chart.

 

Going by your list though the top 10 individual OP fighters are Rand, Moridin, Dem, Cynd, Graendal, Taim, Logain, Alivia, Nyn and Moghy. Although if we were to count the dead things would get much more complicated.

 

Actually I think it would be far simpler. It would just be Rand and the 9 top Forsaken. You can already kick Moghedien and Asmodean out. Taim might be able to sneak in at 10th, but we don't really know enough about him.

 

True, but how easy is ranking the Forsaken amongst themselves? Rahvin and Sammael about equal? Both below Dem? Is Aginor above Dem? And we don't know much about Ba'lal...

 

Well, personally, I'd have, in no particular order: Rand, Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Graendal, Rahvin, Semirhage.

 

That leaves 2 spots open. Take out Moghedien and Asmodean, and you have Aginor, Bel'al, Balthamel, and Mesaana. The most respected amongst those is Bel'al, but the Forsaken didn't necessarily judge by how good of a fighter you are. In a face to face battle I think you'd have to give a spot to Aginor simply because of his immense strength. Mesaana was not a fighter, and there's not much to say about Balthamel apart that he was "quite strong" in the power. I'd give the last spot to Bel'al.

 

So you'd have: Rand, Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Graendal, Rahvin, Semirhage, Aginor and Bel'al. Keeping in mind that Taim might be able to sneak in there.

 

That said, the Forsaken are all deadly so apart from duels like Lanfear vs Moghedien,or Demandred vs Asmodean, they're all fairly close anyway.

 

Fair enough. :)

[Entreri]

As much as I like Alivia, no way she will be able to take out Taim, who would not only be stronger than her but has defense capabilities.

 

I would say that possibly aside from Asmodean, all the male Chosen are clustered closely together in OP strength. Logain came very close to Rand's strength and presumably, Taim's is right there with Logain.

 

Interestingly, all the strongest males are clustered together in OP strength (Rand, Ishamael, Agnior, Demandred...Logain, Taim etc), while the top females, you have what? Lanfear and Alivia, after which there is a considerably drop. The strength of someone like Rahvin was commented on both by Grandael and Moghdien and even Lanfear indirectly.

 

Rahvin was very confident that he or Sammael would overwhelm Lanfear in a face-to-face confrontation. Male strength has several levels above the female. I don't see any of the strongest males (at least among the Chosen) losing to Lanfear in a face-to-face confrontation (balefire excluded).

 

We know that Alivia would overwhelm Nynaeve, whatever she did, Alivia was far too strong for Nynaeve. Likely any of the strongest males (Chosen) would overwhelm any of the women, including Lanfear.

 

In turn, Lanfear would overwhelm Semirhage, Messana and Moghdien.

[Suttree]

We know that Alivia would overwhelm Nynaeve, whatever she did, Alivia was far too strong for Nynaeve. Likely any of the strongest males (Chosen) would overwhelm any of the women, including Lanfear.

 

Given that Lanfear is noted in some places as being second to only Ishamael in power amongst the Forsaken I don't think we can make that "overwhelm" statement with any certainty.

[Amandera]

As much as I like Alivia, no way she will be able to take out Taim, who would not only be stronger than her but has defense capabilities.

 

I would say that possibly aside from Asmodean, all the male Chosen are clustered closely together in OP strength. Logain came very close to Rand's strength and presumably, Taim's is right there with Logain.

 

Interestingly, all the strongest males are clustered together in OP strength (Rand, Ishamael, Agnior, Demandred...Logain, Taim etc), while the top females, you have what? Lanfear and Alivia, after which there is a considerably drop. The strength of someone like Rahvin was commented on both by Grandael and Moghdien and even Lanfear indirectly.

 

Rahvin was very confident that he or Sammael would overwhelm Lanfear in a face-to-face confrontation. Male strength has several levels above the female. I don't see any of the strongest males (at least among the Chosen) losing to Lanfear in a face-to-face confrontation (balefire excluded).

 

We know that Alivia would overwhelm Nynaeve, whatever she did, Alivia was far too strong for Nynaeve. Likely any of the strongest males (Chosen) would overwhelm any of the women, including Lanfear.

 

In turn, Lanfear would overwhelm Semirhage, Messana and Moghdien.

Sheer Power is not everything. Especially in opposite sex confrontations. Yes, men can handle more of OP, but you are completely ignoring the fact women are more deft with their weaves.

 

We know Rand, Ishamael and Lanfear were top tiers of saidin and saidar. We know that means Rand and Ishamael could hold more saidin than Lanfear could hold saidar. But we also know Lanfear would have more dexterity than Rand or Ishamael. It's a case of bigger fireball vs quicker fireball. Men and women have their own advantages. They are different but equal. If Rand, Ishamael and Lanfear all had the same experience, knowledge and Talents, it would be an even match between all three of them. Any duel between two of the three would be a coin toss.

 

Alivia and Taim both are one step below respectively Lanfear and Rand. That means Taim has the advantage of more OP while Alivia has more dexterity. These advantages negate each other. Then you have to look at the other factors:

Experience: Alivia by far. She is over 400 years old and 400 of those years are spent being used as a weapon or being trained as a weapon. We don't exactly know how old Taim is because of the slowing but he is nowhere near Alivia.

Skill: Both are fighters. They are equal in this.

Knowledge: Alivia claims the Asha'man are good weapons but she is better. In return she has no idea how to defend herself, while Taim does. Taim has a big advantage in defense while Alivia has a small one in offense. That puts Taim ahead but not by that much.

 

Overall, one-on-one Alivia has the advantage.

 

We don't know strongest male channelers are more clustered than female. Women can judge each other's current and potential strength by being near to each other. Men can only judge how much the other man is at that moment holding saidin. We only have Rand's perspective of how strong the other male channelers are. And that is only limited to a few and subject to Rand's opinion. Because of LTT's effect on him, he sees every channeler as a threat to himself and because of that when someone comes near him he is scared and thinks "he can almost as much saidin as I can". He is not that reliable a source and the only other one we have is BWB and Moiraine which do not say much.

 

Rahvin's confidence means absolutely nothing. RJ said don't believe in what the Forsaken think when comparing themselves to others. Each one thinks he/she is better than anyone else, so they have a tendency to see themselves more than they are and others less.

 

You probably read saidar strength comparison in the 13th Depository but read it again. And this time remember sheer Power is only one of the factors that affect how someone would do in a duel. Cyndane and Alivia are equal in OP, but Alivia had a paralis-net which included an angreal and pretty cool ter'angreal. Cyndane managed to beat Alivia and escape unscathed.

 

 

Don't underestimate Lanfear/Cyndane. That's a deadly mistake :P

[elric]

where it is said that Womaon are more deft /skilled ???

 

the diffrence that is said is very simple:

 

Man stronger but cant link

Woman -> weaker but can link and and given enough ppl can outmatch several solo channeler.

 

yes they are equals but male are more suited to 1 on 1 and female are more suited for group fight

think of it like that: Male-> PvP specialisation / Female-> Raid specialisation :))

 

ant btw: rem that Nyn is a VERY young channeler :), give her 100+ years and i think she will outgrow Alivia :))

[Nightstrike]

LTT is probably the best fighter.

Ishy next ...

then Demandred

followed rapidly by Lanfear

... then I don't know ... Sammael and Graendal probably have similar chances of defeating each other. I don't know where Taim and Logain fit in.

[Amandera]

where it is said that Womaon are more deft /skilled ???

 

the diffrence that is said is very simple:

 

Man stronger but cant link

Woman -> weaker but can link and and given enough ppl can outmatch several solo channeler.

 

Read BWB. I can't quote because I don't have it with me. But I distinctly remember reading men generally hold more of OP, but the women have more dexterity.

 

yes they are equals but male are more suited to 1 on 1 and female are more suited for group fight

think of it like that: Male-> PvP specialisation / Female-> Raid specialisation :))

You are not all wrong in this. Men are usually better at fighting. That's clear because it's said in AoL, men were in general more powerful in Fire and Earth, women Air and Water. Most destructive weaves are made of Fire and Earth. Just as the average man is a better fighter than the average woman. Where you are wrong is you assume that holds true for every woman. A woman can kick your ass pretty easily if she is strong and knows how to fight. Egwene is strong in Earth. Naeff is strong with Air. Nynaeve is not as strong with Air as Naeff. There are a lot of exceptions to this rule.

 

ant btw: rem that Nyn is a VERY young channeler :), give her 100+ years and i think she will outgrow Alivia :))

This is impossible. Nynaeve has been forced to reach her potential. What she has is what she will have. I don't know if she totally reached her potential but even if she hasn't, she is close to there. Even in a thousand years that will never change. Alivia is stronger and will be stronger than Nynaeve. Woman can judge each other's potential and current strength.

 

Another point is that Nynaeve is a healer, Alivia is a fighter.

 

If you're talking about experience, maybe. Alivia is pretty experienced herself. We have no idea how their lives will unfold, so this is purely speculation.

 

But, there is no way in hell, Nynaeve can beat Alivia in an honest one-on-one duel. Now or ever.

[Nightstrike]

Greater dexterity isn't the same as better fighters. They can "do just about the same as a man and to the same degree", but that just about says nothing of how good fighters they are. You don't need complicated weaves, lots of Talents, and so on, to defeat another channeler.

[BFG]

LTT is probably the best fighter.

Ishy next ...

then Demandred

followed rapidly by Lanfear

... then I don't know ... Sammael and Graendal probably have similar chances of defeating each other. I don't know where Taim and Logain fit in.

 

I'm not sure why Ishy keeps getting put so close to the top (ahead of other forsaken) - by nature he's a philosopher, not a fighter, and Rand beat him twice while mostly untrained. His power puts him near the top, and an assumption of experience compared to most none AoL AS, but he doesn't seem #2 to me, 3 or 4 maybe.

 

His position as Nae'Blis (sp?) may give him some advantage against other Forsaken, but I'm not convinced - openly they may support him, but privately they're plotting his downfall. If it came to a 1 on 1, they wouldn't give up because of it.

 

 

 

Greater dexterity isn't the same as better fighters. They can "do just about the same as a man and to the same degree", but that just about says nothing of how good fighters they are. You don't need complicated weaves, lots of Talents, and so on, to defeat another channeler.

 

No, but as someone said earlier, stronger fireball over faster fireball. As an in book example there's a 'fight' between Nyn and Talaan (WF apprentice?) where T(?) is shielding Nyn, she manages it because her weaves are more dextrous, not because they're stronger - she can maneauver around Nyns defences before Nyn has time to react.

 

So in terms of who are the better fighters, it's not determined by strength alone, although strength is an important advantage. Dexterity, demonstrably, is important, as is knowledge, experience and luck.

[Amandera]

Greater dexterity isn't the same as better fighters. They can "do just about the same as a man and to the same degree", but that just about says nothing of how good fighters they are. You don't need complicated weaves, lots of Talents, and so on, to defeat another channeler.

I have never said greater dexterity means better fighter. I'm saying it makes up for the fact they have lesser strength. Yes, men are generally better fighters. But there are exceptions to that, a lot of them.

 

My objection is to mistake that the amount of OP the channeler holds is everything. Egwene is strong in Earth. Imagine a male channeler with greater strength than Egwene, but he is nowhere near as strong as Earth as Egwene. Who would do a more effective weave the erupt the earth, Egwene or our imagined chaneller?

[Nightstrike]

Greater dexterity isn't the same as better fighters. They can "do just about the same as a man and to the same degree", but that just about says nothing of how good fighters they are. You don't need complicated weaves, lots of Talents, and so on, to defeat another channeler.

I have never said greater dexterity means better fighter. I'm saying it makes up for the fact they have lesser strength. Yes, men are generally better fighters. But there are exceptions to that, a lot of them.

If the blue includes fighting ability, then you did say the red.

[elric]

i dont think Nyn reached her full potential , rem how she keep growing in the books (the dwelling improvment for example).

 

and beeing an healer dont mean u not a fighter :).

personally i view Nyn as yellow with HIGH !!! green tendecies :), kind of battlefield comando medic :)))

 

rem her eagerness to engage in battles,her need to PROTECT, her insane courage (as the AIAL Avi said) and Egy tought that holding Nyn away from a battle is the impossible task

yes healing IS Nyn greatest passion , but it not her only one.

[Amandera]

Greater dexterity isn't the same as better fighters. They can "do just about the same as a man and to the same degree", but that just about says nothing of how good fighters they are. You don't need complicated weaves, lots of Talents, and so on, to defeat another channeler.

I have never said greater dexterity means better fighter. I'm saying it makes up for the fact they have lesser strength. Yes, men are generally better fighters. But there are exceptions to that, a lot of them.

If the blue includes fighting ability, then you did say the red.

You mistake me. And apparently I mistake you as well. I thought you meant better fighters than men.

 

We know Rand, Ishamael and Lanfear were top tiers of saidin and saidar. We know that means Rand and Ishamael could hold more saidin than Lanfear could hold saidar. But we also know Lanfear would have more dexterity than Rand or Ishamael. It's a case of bigger fireball vs quicker fireball. Men and women have their own advantages. They are different but equal. If Rand, Ishamael and Lanfear all had the same experience, knowledge and Talents, it would be an even match between all three of them. Any duel between two of the three would be a coin toss.

This is what I am saying. Assume every factor that affects a duel is the same. We have a duel between top-tier male channeler and top-tier female channeler. Male has the advantage of more OP, female has better dexterity. I am saying they would stand equal chances of being the victor in an honest, one-on-one duel.

[Barid Bel Medar]

A few things to note:

 

Alivia is not as great as people think

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 4th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

For Sidious, when Alivia faced Cyndane, Alivia was by far the stronger because of her angreal, and had various tools (ter'angreal) to work with besides, but Cyndane was much, much more knowledgeable about channeling. Alivia, after all, knew relatively little except how to be a weapon. That was very useful in the situation, but in this case, knowledge versus strength made it an even match.

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 4th, 2005

KOD Signing Report - Karana Majin (Paraphrased)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes, there is an upper limit. In terms of the channeling of raw amounts of the One Power, men can handle more than women. However, women are much more dextrous in their ability to use the One Power, so for all intents and purposes, they are equal in their abilities to do and create weaves and are mostly equal to each other.

 

 

Lanfear can do the same things Rand can do (both the top of their respective genders). Because they inherently weave things differently.

 

A male channeller weaves with brute strength. Example Travelling. Forcing their way through the Pattern.

 

A female on the other hand, weaves with complexity. Travelling, they create a similarity in the pattern.

 

I like to use this analogy.

 

Men weave in straight lines and sharp angles. Strong and direct. It takes more power to do.

 

Women weave in circles and smooth curves. They substitute strength for a smoother weave, requiring less power but more complexity.

[Nightstrike]

Lanfear can do the same things Rand can do (both the top of their respective genders). Because they inherently weave things differently.

That quote was paraphrased. They can do "just about" the same thing, and "to the same degree".

[Amandera]

BBM, Nightstrike, are your posts to me or to general? Because I've been saying the same things.

 

Cyndane is great.

Alivia unaided is second to Cyndane among women because of her lack of knowledge not because of OP.

Men and women are equal.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Cem: Not aimed at you, just providing quotes to reinforce what RJ has said on the matter.

 

 

NS: He has said the same other times.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 2nd, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

For Infested Templar, two women linking have slightly less of saidar available to them than the two women would have individually. But it can be used much, much more precisely, and therefore more effectively, than they could manage working merely as partners. The reduction also occurs for men entering a circle. One man in a circle means that only the amount of saidin that he can handle, less the reduction for being in a circle, is available. Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Alivia unaided is second to Cyndane among women because of her lack of knowledge not because of OP.

I think Alivia could be second to Cyndane unaided in the OP. With the angreal, she would still be maybe twice Cyndane's strength.

 

 

Men and women are equal.

I don't think they're quite equal in every respect.

[Nightstrike]

INTERVIEW: Oct 2nd, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

For Infested Templar, two women linking have slightly less of saidar available to them than the two women would have individually. But it can be used much, much more precisely, and therefore more effectively, than they could manage working merely as partners. The reduction also occurs for men entering a circle. One man in a circle means that only the amount of saidin that he can handle, less the reduction for being in a circle, is available. Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

That's exactly what I said.