Thoughts on One Power strength levels and exhaustion and linking (math intensive)

[BFG]

Most people I know are pretty math savy, or have spent enough time amongst us that it wouldn't be a normal sample. I understand completely (hopefully) what you're saying, but I don't think there's any evidence that suggests they see in 1D, possibly 2D as I said, but if the source is seperate to the channelers than the size of the connection must be what's measured, although if it is a rope as imaged in EotW and the fight between Rand and Lanfear in tFoH(?) then you do get a volume.

 

@Vardarmus - tbf Rand did have an angreal, Moiraine commented on it, because she thought that if Rand didn't have one than he'd be a puddle:) Shame about the quote, I was convinced it was the same angreal.

[Craig Jarvis]

@BFG and Vardarmus

 

I will have to re-listen to the latest book and re-listen to what both the 'Finn and Moiraine say concerning that Angreal. While, I have been wrong about things in teh past, it is unusual for me to goof a point like this.

 

Plus that was one of the incidents that made me want to run up these numbers, to try and figure out the properties of (sa')angreal.

 

I'll start listening now... hopefully have an answer in a bit.

[Craig Jarvis]

Moiraine's words concerning the Angreal... "They gave it to me, so they could feed on me longer. Actually, I asked for it. As one of my three requests." The description is aged ivory bracelet, of a person bending backwards with hands and feet shackled together. It is the same description. I would rather say Brandon Sanderson is wrong. Why mention 2 different Angreal that are identical in description, and powerlevel. in the same place at the same time.

[Knivy]

Moiraine's words concerning the Angreal... "They gave it to me, so they could feed on me longer. Actually, I asked for it. As one of my three requests." The description is aged ivory bracelet, of a person bending backwards with hands and feet shackled together. It is the same description. I would rather say Brandon Sanderson is wrong. Why mention 2 different Angreal that are identical in description, and powerlevel. in the same place at the same time.

 

I have been lead to think that the current Angreal is much stronger than the one she trapped Lanfear with...

[shortkut]

Moiraine's words concerning the Angreal... "They gave it to me, so they could feed on me longer. Actually, I asked for it. As one of my three requests." The description is aged ivory bracelet, of a person bending backwards with hands and feet shackled together. It is the same description. I would rather say Brandon Sanderson is wrong. Why mention 2 different Angreal that are identical in description, and powerlevel. in the same place at the same time.

i was under the impression that it was something from the notes

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

there was a d20 table top RPG game for WoT.

 

i believe they explained how channelinmg /angril and circle work in there

They nerfed channelers for balance reasons in the d20 game.

 

The OP has a far better interpretation.

[Craig Jarvis]

Luckers: What happened to Moiraine’s original angreal? The one she had in the Two Rivers?

 

Brandon: Oh, you mean the fat man with… no, wait that was Rand….

 

Luckers: Yeah, Moiraine’s one was an ivory woman.

 

Brandon: Yeah, yeah. You know, that’s a good question, because it’s odd, the notes specifically said she got the angreal as one of her wishes…

 

Luckers: Ah, so it’s definitely not the angreal Lanfear had? People have asked, I think because both were bracelets.

 

Brandon: No, it’s definitely a different angreal. But yes, if she had another angreal, why would she ask for one?

 

Luckers: Maybe the Finns took her original one. I mean she was naked when they found her, so they took…

 

Brandon: Yeah, maybe *looks dubious*.

 

Luckers: Or maybe it’s still in Cairhien with the rest of her stuff.

 

Brandon: Yeah, but it would still be odd, that she’d ask, if she had another. Yeah, so, I don’t know, sorry.

 

Okay what was asked was basically "Moiraine had an angreal in book one, where is it?"

and Brandon replied, "the one she has now is the one from Lanfear, I don't know what happened to that original one, perhaps it is with her stuff in Cairhien."

[Whizbang]

She seems to have lost it somewhere in tDR. And by lost, I mean I don't remember it being mentioned after Moir heals Rand and Perrin after the attack in the mountains at the beginning of tDR. She didn't have it when she killed the Darkhounds in Illian. Maybe she had it in the Heart of the Stone (I am re-reading tDR right now), but I don't think she did. She definitely didn't have it when she attacked Lanfear on the wagons. If she did, she would have been more confident, rather than sneak up and try to wrestle the Angreal from Lanfear.

[Craig Jarvis]

LOL I remember what happened to it.

 

Start of The Great Hunt, Siuan takes it from her...

 

Paraphrasing "You have been gone from the Tower too long Daughter... They want that angreal back"

[Whizbang]

No, she had it when she healed Perrin and Rand at the beginning of tDR.

 

 

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 5 'Nightmares Walking'

The Warder had a hand under the Aes Sedai's arm, as if trying to support her without letting her know it. Moiraine's eyes were haggard, and she carried a small, age-dark ivory carving of a woman in one hand. Perrin knew it for an angreal, a remnant from the Age of Legends that allowed an Aes Sedai to safely channel more of the Power than she could alone. It was a measure of her tiredness that she was using for Healing.

[Craig Jarvis]

Ahh, you are right. But Siuan did say they wanted it back., perhaps she sent it with Min when she went to the tower... as it was not mentioned afterwards.

[Whizbang]

Just an oversight on RJ's part. I do not believe Moir would trust Min with an Angreal. Not that Min was untrustworthy, just that she was not Aes Sedai, and so should not be given the care of something as rare and powerful as an Angreal. I get the impression that Moir does not let go of power easily (which makes whatever she wished for in the Aelfinn/Eelfinn world that more precious, as it cost her strength in the OP itself). She did send a ship full of objects from Tear to the WT after Rand took the Stone, so maybe it was in that. Seems out of character for her to not only send the angreal back, but to also not keep a few objects (off the books) from the loot for herself, as Nyn and Elayne do later on. She may not be able to sense what a Ter'Angreal does, but you'd think that she'd find something useful, maybe another angreal or two. Rand sensed one right away (which is odd that it was even in the storage, as how would a person know it was OP related? Male channelers haven't been exactly common or educated enough to identify/use one, and female channeler probably wouldn't be able to identify it either. How was it associated with the OP enough to place in storage?)

[Craig Jarvis]

False dragon or male channeler, caught/killed. or one of the many missing Aiel wagons from just after the breaking. The stone was constructed before the White Tower, I believe.

[Mhaliah]

I would think of it more as a "Energy equation" when dealing with circles.

 

E = 1/2*m*v²

 

the 1/2 is basically the effect of only saidar (i.e. the void space is 1/2 when only saidar is used, the closer the m:f ratio is to 1:1 the closer the scaler gets to 1.

 

the "m" is an intrinsic property of saidar and does not change.

 

v is the "ability" factor of the person wielding the power

 

the v² term is what is modified in a circle, or by sa'angreal and angreal.

 

I agree with the angreal add sa'angreal multiply,

 

v_personal = [s_sa'angreal(v_base+s_angreal)]²

 

v_circle = [(v_1personal+v_2personal....v_13personal) * F_safety]

 

where F_safety is the factor that limits the strength such that it is not a straight sum and ensures that no person is burnt out in the circle.

 

E_circle = 1/2 * m * v_circle²

[Luckers]

Luckers: What happened to Moiraine’s original angreal? The one she had in the Two Rivers?

 

Brandon: Oh, you mean the fat man with… no, wait that was Rand….

 

Luckers: Yeah, Moiraine’s one was an ivory woman.

 

Brandon: Yeah, yeah. You know, that’s a good question, because it’s odd, the notes specifically said she got the angreal as one of her wishes…

 

Luckers: Ah, so it’s definitely not the angreal Lanfear had? People have asked, I think because both were bracelets.

 

Brandon: No, it’s definitely a different angreal. But yes, if she had another angreal, why would she ask for one?

 

Luckers: Maybe the Finns took her original one. I mean she was naked when they found her, so they took…

 

Brandon: Yeah, maybe *looks dubious*.

 

Luckers: Or maybe it’s still in Cairhien with the rest of her stuff.

 

Brandon: Yeah, but it would still be odd, that she’d ask, if she had another. Yeah, so, I don’t know, sorry.

 

Okay what was asked was basically "Moiraine had an angreal in book one, where is it?"

and Brandon replied, "the one she has now is the one from Lanfear, I don't know what happened to that original one, perhaps it is with her stuff in Cairhien."

 

Actually Brandon stated flat out that it WASN'T the one Lanfear had OR the one that Moiraine had originally. It's a new one.

 

It was an odd comment given the similarity of discription between Lanfear's one and Moiraine's new one, but, neverthelesss, that be what he said.

[Craig Jarvis]

@Luckers

 

Well, I wasn't there and you were so I will have to take your word on it.

 

It is just reading this transcript there seems to be a lot of distraction/confusion. BS's comments seem to contain alot of leaping to answer your question before you finish asking it. As I was reading it it sounds to me that regardless of the question you were currently asking he was answering your original question combined with your latest question of what happened to Moiraine's original angreal and is it the same as the one Lanfear had? To which he stated no Moiraine's original Angreal is not the one Moiraine has now. That was the way I read it. Sounds like he was having sugar with sugar on top and his favorite sugary drink.

 

The main reason I am reading it that way is due to what is written in the books goes very very far to support the fact that moiraine asked for Lanfear's angreal. The description of a person bent backwards into a loop with their hands and feet shackled, and can be worn as a bracelet. I am re-listening to Book 5 to see if moiraine describes the power level of that angreal in a similar fashion. I don't think she ever describes its powerlevel, but I can forget things like that.

[Luckers]

That'd just be in the notes I took. We talked in a lot more detail than is necessarily shown there, whilst I took shorthand notes. Brandon stated that the angreal is NOT Lanfear's angreal.

[shortkut]

Did he mention I'd RJ had a reason why it was a different one or were the notes not specific as to that?

[Luckers]

He didn't say, and no, I didn't ask.

[Craig Jarvis]

It is a shame that he didn't make the description different then... such as children in a circle holding each others' feet. But that doesn't change my math or the formula. It works out well.. The constants may need to be adjusted, and the linking math and logic is still very fuzzy mainly due to a lack of good info and solid examples with descriptions of the power level. BFG and I are still working out the Linking... I think BFG has me convinced that there is something lost or not fully ulilized when a circle is involved, and it is due to the "safety" built into a circle to prevent damaging the others in a circle who have no control over the circle. I wonder if there is an override, so all member of the circle can willingly sacrifice themselves in one glorious "blaze of glory"?

[Craig Jarvis]

You know it wasn't real clear if on Moiraine's new angreal if the hands and feet were shackled. Lanfear's the hands and feet were shackled as in forced contortion. Perhaps Moiraine's the hands and feet are not shackled and therefore willing contortion. That would also put a positive spin on the angreal.

[BFG]

It is a shame that he didn't make the description different then... such as children in a circle holding each others' feet. But that doesn't change my math or the formula. It works out well.. The constants may need to be adjusted, and the linking math and logic is still very fuzzy mainly due to a lack of good info and solid examples with descriptions of the power level. BFG and I are still working out the Linking... I think BFG has me convinced that there is something lost or not fully ulilized when a circle is involved, and it is due to the "safety" built into a circle to prevent damaging the others in a circle who have no control over the circle. I wonder if there is an override, so all member of the circle can willingly sacrifice themselves in one glorious "blaze of glory"?

 

*falls over in shock*

 

Might be worth noting that ter'angreal don't seem to have the safety feature - I'm sure there are examples of people getting burnt out using them.

 

I'll need to search the books, but there's a bit where Eg is in TAR and she sees a broken version of the CK female ter'angreal that sends surges of power through her - at the time I always thought that she was close to burning out, don't know if there's something there that might give you a hint. (From memory, the ter'angreal is the safety feature of the CK)

 

EDIT: now I'm going to have to reread all your work on time channeling. May have to wait for a clearer head :)

[Craig Jarvis]

Yes, but how to logically implement the loss, in a manner that works in every instance. Literary freedom with the "rules" may cause some of the formulas to break, but I hope not. I am happy with the solo channeler and angreal sa'angreal formulas.. the Channeling time/endurance formula may need an adjustment to the constant, but it is very close... not enough examples to show exactly how long a channeler of a certain power can go full-bore, whole-hog, and balls-out channeling before exhaustion hits. This chart is more of a reasonable amount of channeling (such a during a battle, the cahnneling may be feirce, but with frequent breaks, or periods of light channeling. Whole hog channeling might only be one tenth of that time. We can only guess how long the cleansing took (3 hours, or 5 hours). I don't think there is a good metric.

[Entreri]

They massed produced ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal in AoL. It may have similar properties to the one Lanfear wielded at the docks.

[BFG]

I'm going to try to dig up some arc/segment relations to do with circles, for the power loss, but may take a while.