Thoughts on One Power strength levels and exhaustion and linking (math intensive)

[yoniy0]

I applaud your inquisitive nature, guys, but I do feel like this effort is ultimately futile. Having the capacity for elaborate calculations is quite different from deciding to describe your world in these terms. I very much doubt RJ did that. And, even if he has, there's absolutely no way for us to deduce the method he used (it could be along a polynomial scale, or a logarithmic one, or more along the lines of power spent in parallel-load circuits -- which by the way is an apt metaphor -- there's simply no way to tell).

 

By the way, Sid, don't ever tell a mathematician that physicists have to have a good understanding of math. Well, actually, most mathematicians would probably not let it come to blows, but you'd never know when you might meet the likes of Évariste Galois (the up side being, all that time spent proving theorems makes for lousy shots ).

[Sid]

I applaud your inquisitive nature, guys, but I do feel like this effort is ultimately futile. Having the capacity for elaborate calculations is quite different from deciding to describe your world in these terms. I very much doubt RJ did that. And, even if he has, there's absolutely no way for us to deduce the method he used (it could be along a polynomial scale, or a logarithmic one, or more along the lines of power spent in parallel-load circuits -- which by the way is an apt metaphor -- there's simply no way to tell).

 

By the way, Sid, don't ever tell a mathematician that physicists have to have a good understanding of math. Well, actually, most mathematicians would probably not let it come to blows, but you'd never know when you might meet the likes of Évariste Galois (the up side being, all that time spent proving theorems makes for lousy shots ).

What I meant by a 'good' or 'strong' mind for math is compared to the general populace, not necessarily compared to mathematicians. Kind of like saying he was a really good shot with his gun in the war and suddenly all the snipers start scoffing at non-sniper aiming ability. I think you know what I meant though If you can get a degree in physics you're probably capable of coming up with formulas like we've seen in the thread. I can't think there are a terribly high percentage among authors of fiction that have degrees in physics or math, so it's more likely someone like him may have developed some kind of formula to keep things consistent than a writer without that background.

[yoniy0]

I think you know what I meant though If you can get a degree in physics you're probably capable of coming up with formulas like we've seen in the thread.

What my mind rebelled against is the notion that "coming up with formulas" is in any way what "math" is about. But never mind that, I very much doubt anyone could really see the difference who hasn't studied math; I just wanted to let you know that the distinction exists (and to warn you that some mathematicians go around challenging folks to duels ).

[Wandering Channeler]

yoniy0 - you're probably right, unless RJ has a notebook that actual contains the formula then we're just grasping at straws, but its fun to try.

 

This idea of precision seems definitely possible. It would explain why some channelers are better with certain weaves. The two most important examples of this are obviously Androl and his gateways, and do you guys remember Berowin from the Kin that can hold a shield on anyone by herself although she is not very strong. She seems like the perfect example of precision with a certain weave. She is a level 5 and says she can hold a forsaken by herself. Lanfear at level 21 has a 1385 - 78 = 1307 power output advantage over her. Assuming that percision is mulitiplied by your power level to give the "strength" of a certain weave, Berowin would need a percision of 1385/78 = 18 to be able to match Lanfear's power to be able to hold her shielded.

[Craig Jarvis]

@BFG

 

I appreciate your input. I think you are trying to incorporate everything all at once. In programming this is a mistake... you need to work on each subroutine seperately. Isolate each function seperately, work out your formulas so they work individually with a mind to making them interoperable with each other once they are assembled (thus why I am sticking with the Circle/Sphere geometry), then as each begin comming to completion start trying to run the subroutines together and see if the end result makes sense. You are correct in stating that there are portions that when assembled yield anomalies, and those are the sections where we have very little reference from the books. (Linking, and the exact nature of Angreal and Sa'Angreal, and mixed-gender linking). We keep hearing about a reduction of power in circles. But if you look at what I am proposing, when one channeler compares them self to another who is twice as strong, they cannot link with someone on their Power Level and equal this stronger AS. My formula accounts for this. You are looking for an actual power loss, when the power loss is only percieved. Linking isn't multiplying their powers but merely adding them i.e. X^2+X^2=2X^2 not X^4 or even X^3 which is a common misconception amoungst those first learning math, like both my kids, whom I had this discussion with both of them while helping them with their homework3 years apart. Yes I know that example doesn't have anything to do with our circles but it does have to do with those learning a more complicated system of combining, which is what the girls were being taught. Imaging a purely exponential scale X^1,X^2,X^3,X^4,etc... if you combined two, three, or even thirteen of these, the exponents would not add... only the results, which would yield a dissapointing result, if you expected the earlier result (X^2+X^3 doesn't equal X^5 but rather less). Remember this isn't about math from the perspective of those who already know, but rather from the perspective of those who are learning. And the AS teachers aren't really that keen on it either.

 

As to Sealing the Bore... Only LTT created the seals. and if he had gotten his way with the circle... only he would have led the circle. There was only going to be one person weaving during the sealing and it was going to be LTT. Remember any doubt you are getting from the SaSG is either from the historian who read it, or from the people who wrote it, who weren't even there. Obviously the circle could not have made him any more accurate. As they said only perfect prescision would work. And LTT managed that by himself.

 

Your chart is having Vera's Rod effect all of the linked channelers, it doesn't... It only effects the channeler holding it. So lets say Siuan @ PL12 had a 4* multiplier with the Vera's Rod, and the other nine were 7's which was the average That would be 3158 by my numbers. Nyneve is an 18 @ 1017 and she stated that she didn't think she could channel half that much power. That wouldn't be out of line by much. She still hadn't peaked, as women don't peak until much later in life unless "Forced" and her perception was off. But still quite amazing that she could channel 1/3 the power that 10 AS linked with a 4X Sa'Angreal in the mix.

[Craig Jarvis]

@yoniy0

 

That's very clever, saying it can't be done to make us try harder! I see what you did there!

 

Actually Jodan does have a Notebook, or rather a forrest of Fileing cabinets. Read the various interviews with Maria and how she got started then promoted from housekeeper to official Jordan file manager. There is an entire room of notes on everything Jordan had penned and thought about characters, nations, histories, and the complex "science" of channeling. The Wheel of Time has been lauded for having the most detailed and "logical" magic system of any Fiction out there. To not try and understand it would be denying yourself the greater satisfaction of a deeper understanding of this world Jordan created. Plus seeing it in action in the last book, I will be better able to visualize what is going on if I understand the mechanics. That's how I roll. This series is meant to be enjoyed on many levels, this is one of the levels I really enjoy and am fascinated with. not everyone will enjoy this nor see why it is fascinating... Just like me with football and baseball.. I don't see the point but I won't be walking into a sport's bar and saying "you guys shouldn't be watching this or keeping statistics... it is futile." That would just be kinda rude.

 

BFG and I aren't seeing things the same in this issue, but we both are really enjoying seeing each other's input.. he/she has already made me rething and re-evaluate some of my math. I hope he/she continues to challenge me. No one should go un-opposed in their thinking. But providing a check on someone's thought process isn't the same as saying "Whoa, don't do this thing! You might discover something new, or un-thought of!" Is just so 1880 of you.

 

I believe it was the International Sciences Convention in the late 1800's that made the bold statement that "everything that can be known about science has already been discovered". oops.

[Craig Jarvis]

@Wandering Channeler

 

Both of those examples were also labeled as "Nearly talents", which leads me to believe that there are Talents concerning just one weave, which is backed up by talents for healing which is just another weave but lacking that talent the weave isn't possible except to the barest degree. Also compulsion, lacking the talent at best you can only make a strong suggestion. Androl can make a gateway when he is far below the required power level. Not only can he make on, he can make the largest gateway of anyone at the black tower. Possible surpassing Rand. What would happen if her were in a circle or had an Angreal or Sa'Angreal? Same with Beorwin. It is just a talent. It defies the logic of the order, and is there to add value to those who lack the raw strength... This leads back to where in the AoL even lesser strength channelers were not discarded as they are in the Third Age. This talents can make them more valuable in certain weaves, than even the strongest. Rand and LTT do not have many talents other than those I listed above. None other have been mentioned or alluded to.

[Craig Jarvis]

The talent for healing is said to be beyond the powerlevel as well, The Wiki's state that Healing isn't power dependant, the weakest of channelers with a strong talent can perform as well if not better than Nyneve and all her strength.

[Craig Jarvis]

@Danjaman

 

As to the unweaving, WE really on have 2 event's of that and it is clearly a specialty that can be learned. Once by an experienced "unweaver" and once by a pure novice "unweaver" perhaps if we see it again we can then start working on it.

[yoniy0]

Read the various interviews with Maria and how she got started then promoted from housekeeper to official Jordan file manager. There is an entire room of notes on everything Jordan had penned and thought about characters, nations, histories, and the complex "science" of channeling.

Oh, I've read most everything there is, which is part of the reason I'm not certain regarding this endeavor. RJ was said to have tables comparing the strength of channelers, into a fixed number of groups, implying that he wasn't using any exact formula.

 

This series is meant to be enjoyed on many levels, this is one of the levels I really enjoy and am fascinated with. not everyone will enjoy this nor see why it is fascinating... Just like me with football and baseball.. I don't see the point but I won't be walking into a sport's bar and saying "you guys shouldn't be watching this or keeping statistics... it is futile." That would just be kinda rude.

Well then, more power to you. I wasn't trying to be rude, but I do want my perspective here for everyone, that this attempt is more about having fun with calculations and less about "figuring out what RJ had in mind", because as I said I don't think he had anything concrete like this in mind. I'd like people to know that going in, is all.

 

No one should go un-opposed in their thinking. But providing a check on someone's thought process isn't the same as saying "Whoa, don't do this thing! You might discover something new, or un-thought of!" Is just so 1880 of you.

 

I believe it was the International Sciences Convention in the late 1800's that made the bold statement that "everything that can be known about science has already been discovered". oops.

Okay. This wasn't what I said, but I certainly don't mean to dissuade anyone from this discussion (just change their mindset).

[Craig Jarvis]

@yoniy0

 

Thanks for not taking what i said too harshly.

 

Because it was totally too brash and broad-stroking of me to put it that way.

[Craig Jarvis]

As to the weaves listed as a talent or talent required we could say that a talent could be listed as a percentage. The percentage of your talent is your ability to use that weave at up too 100% effectiveness.

 

Thus Androl has say an 89% talent at Traveling (this is just leaving some headroom for someone possibly being more talented), with that, regardless of his poor channeling power, he can do 89% of what is possible in the traveling weave, with his limited channeling ability.

 

The same with Healing, as some of the 5's and 9's out there are matching or out-performing Nyneve in healing now. They have as much or more talent in healing than she does. Nyneve has a talent for learning new weaves that don't exist before she does them... not just rediscovering them, but rather creating them.

 

I wold presume the same with shielding and Berowin. This could explain the author's leisure with breaking the rules when he needs to, for literary purposes.

[BFG]

@Craig

 

Excellent point about the sa'angreal, if it is a multiplier it's unlikely to multiply the strength of the circle.

 

The SaSG was written within a century of the bore, so is probably actually as acurate as you're ever going to get. Also I think the fact that LTT didn't need a circle to accurately place the seals doesn't necessarily mean that circles don't increase precision/accuracy as he was still worried that without the circles he wouldn't be able to do it. You're right though, it is a secondhand account and thus has to be treated with some caution - unfortunately off the top of my head I can't think of any other examples. The wot.wiki talks about linking, but it also doesn't quote examples, and is made by fans (I think) so again isn't word of God.

 

I guess we're going to disagree on the power loss. I'm viewing the 1-26 as the power level, could equally be a-z. The numbers you initialy came up with as the power output. If you simply add together the power outputs of two different channelers then they're never going to equal even one level higher than the higher of the two linked, but their is no diminshment in their output. For it to be percieved there has to be some loss factor.

 

From my pov the first step is to determine the power outputs of the various levels, which since we have no information on it, other than it's not linear the pi r^2 method seems as good as any. Second would be to determine the power loss that occurs within a circle. Third factor in sa'angreal/angreal (again no real information - but I like your theory that there is an actual difference in them other than simply a number, say angreal <1000, sa'angreal>1000 sort of thing). Fourth would be to look at precision levels - I still can't think of any other reason for 13 L1s to shield anyone else. I'm not sure yet as to whether or not I'd consider them two seperate terms, or a multiplication factor - it gets very complicated if a multiplication factor, because it would then counteract the power loss that occurs. As a factor of this would come adeptness for different elements - Windfinders are great at air and water and shockingly bad at fire. I'd probably also consider the effect of men at this point - the fact that they're stronger wouldn't be any different from adding two people of different strengths. But men and women traditionally have different strengths, so logically it should be considered at this point. There are other things that would also need to be considered - if you split your weaves, what happens? the number of times you split your weaves isn't directly related to power - Eg splits her weaves 14 ways when dosed with forkroot (So skill and power are two seperate things), but in tGH it's described in an exponential pattern of difficulty - splitting weaves twice is more than twice as difficult as performing the two weaves individually, three weaves more than twice as hard again etc... And I don't know if splitting weaves works as a parallel circuit, or series circuit, but that's getting really complicated and would seem to be a debate for much later. Also time spent channelling, although I guess this should probably be considered before linking at all, as it needs to be worked out for an individual before anything else.

 

Since stage 1 is effectively deciding between the different methods of calculating the power levels, your circle method, exponential, multiplication, etc there doesn't seem much to say, there's so little info available at the moment there's no real point in arguing the different methods - thematically yours works really well and I don't have any strong feelings on any of the others, so... From my pov the next thing is to try and work out the power loss, which we disagree on :)

 

(not sure why you brought up the x^2 + x^2 = 2x^2 and not x^3 (unless x=2) or x^4, I wasn't implying that it did - in fact my argument is that it can't as that would make 2x's linked more powerful than 2 x's individually (unless x<1), and I wasn't saying that I thought that was what you were saying - sorry if you thought I was).

 

 

@yoniyo - I agree there isn't enough information to work this out precisely, and I don't know RJs method of writing well enough to know if he'd work it out (Tolkien probbaly would, for example). So thanks for the input - it's still fun to debate.

[Nightstrike]

I've always figured those with particular Talents (or weaknesses, for that matter) could potentially break every rule. Like the strongest may have this weakness in something that most have a Talent in, and that require strength in some elements this same person has more than enough of. Or maybe like some of the weaker who could have a Talent with a particular weave that normally means you should have some strength in order to make it work, and maybe there's even a large fraction of those who can't make it work (a Talent that is very rare, instead of pretty common?)? That's how I've thought of it when I've read the books. Maybe there's something in Harriet's encyclopedia that explains this? Will be interesting, if that's the case.

[AquilaInfernus]

Any chance of seeing the actual formulas? For those of us who are mathematically inclined of course

 

I would imagine linking started as the sum x 80% or something. Add in 13 as a limit based on superstitions etc. It would be fun to do, and I don't doubt RJ has something like this floating around

[Wandering Channeler]

@BFG and Craig

 

If I am understanding everyone correctly then BFG thinks there needs to be a power loss added into the equation for linking and Craig thinks that it already exists due to the circle area forumla for power output (not meaning to put keys under anyone's fingers, I apologize if I'm way off base on this). The only thing we know is that 2 linked channelers would have a power output less than their individual power outputs added together. So Craig is looking at this as 2 level 5s (individual output = 78) linked would have a power output of 156, while a level 10 would have output 314 which is much higher than the 2 level 5s put together. The problem with this is that the in book perception does not go off of these levels. If you saw a level 5 at power output 78 linked with another level five and they had output of 156 then it would be too high of an output for what they should be able to do together. Therefore there does need to be some kind of loss added to the equation.

 

On the subject of talents, I do not agree with the way the term "talent" is thrown around in the books. My understanding is that a talent is something a certain channeler can do that is exceptionally rare and does not really involve channeling or strength in the power. The examples of this are dreaming, foretelling, reading ter'angreal, creating 'greal, I'm sure there are more. These are merely something a channeler can do unrelated to them channeling at all. Elaida doesn't channel to have a foretelling, she just foretells. Egwene doesn't channel to go into TAR, she just goes. So when we get into Egwene being talented with earth weaves (discovered when she was captured by the seachan), I do not like the use of the term talent here. I would say she is just good with earth weaves. Androl's and Berowin's special abilities to do weaves outside of their power levels (in Berowin's case it is not outside of her power level, she should just not be able to hold people so much stronger than herself) are not talents to me. They are just very good at those particular weaves. With that in mind a term like percsion would make sense. It would account for the specific differences channelers have with different weaves regardless of power level. For example, you take two asha'man with the exact same power level say level 10 with power output 314. Asha'man A is really good at blowing up the earth and Asha'man B is really good at setting things on fire. Other then that they are exactly the same. So when A is using earth his power level would appear to be 400 and when B is using fire his power level would appear 400, but if they indiviaully ran into Asha'man C whose power level is 350 and has no particuler specialties, he could shield either one of them because they are all at their originial power levels when trying to use/fight a shield.

[Nightstrike]

On the subject of talents, I do not agree with the way the term "talent" is thrown around in the books. My understanding is that a talent is something a certain channeler can do that is exceptionally rare and does not really involve channeling or strength in the power. The examples of this are dreaming, foretelling, reading ter'angreal, creating 'greal, I'm sure there are more. These are merely something a channeler can do unrelated to them channeling at all. Elaida doesn't channel to have a foretelling, she just foretells. Egwene doesn't channel to go into TAR, she just goes. So when we get into Egwene being talented with earth weaves (discovered when she was captured by the seachan), I do not like the use of the term talent here. I would say she is just good with earth weaves. Androl's and Berowin's special abilities to do weaves outside of their power levels (in Berowin's case it is not outside of her power level, she should just not be able to hold people so much stronger than herself) are not talents to me. They are just very good at those particular weaves. With that in mind a term like percsion would make sense. It would account for the specific differences channelers have with different weaves regardless of power level. For example, you take two asha'man with the exact same power level say level 10 with power output 314. Asha'man A is really good at blowing up the earth and Asha'man B is really good at setting things on fire. Other then that they are exactly the same. So when A is using earth his power level would appear to be 400 and when B is using fire his power level would appear 400, but if they indiviaully ran into Asha'man C whose power level is 350 and has no particuler specialties, he could shield either one of them because they are all at their originial power levels when trying to use/fight a shield.

Those who aren't channelers can't do most of all that, and there are examples where strength apparently matters. Sorilea who's not strong enough to make a working Gateway, and Androl who's Talented enough to do what's considered impossible.

[Tyler Glembo]

Rather than resistors I would consider channelers to be similar to a closed thermodynamic loop (Carnot cycle) to do work. I.E. work done has to do with their own efficiency and also the hot and cold reservoirs are basically how well they can touch the source.

 

Like your work though!

[BFG]

On the subject of talents, I do not agree with the way the term "talent" is thrown around in the books. My understanding is that a talent is something a certain channeler can do that is exceptionally rare and does not really involve channeling or strength in the power. The examples of this are dreaming, foretelling, reading ter'angreal, creating 'greal, I'm sure there are more. These are merely something a channeler can do unrelated to them channeling at all. Elaida doesn't channel to have a foretelling, she just foretells. Egwene doesn't channel to go into TAR, she just goes. So when we get into Egwene being talented with earth weaves (discovered when she was captured by the seachan), I do not like the use of the term talent here. I would say she is just good with earth weaves. Androl's and Berowin's special abilities to do weaves outside of their power levels (in Berowin's case it is not outside of her power level, she should just not be able to hold people so much stronger than herself) are not talents to me. They are just very good at those particular weaves. With that in mind a term like percsion would make sense. It would account for the specific differences channelers have with different weaves regardless of power level. For example, you take two asha'man with the exact same power level say level 10 with power output 314. Asha'man A is really good at blowing up the earth and Asha'man B is really good at setting things on fire. Other then that they are exactly the same. So when A is using earth his power level would appear to be 400 and when B is using fire his power level would appear 400, but if they indiviaully ran into Asha'man C whose power level is 350 and has no particuler specialties, he could shield either one of them because they are all at their originial power levels when trying to use/fight a shield.

Those who aren't channelers can't do most of all that, and there are examples where strength apparently matters. Sorilea who's not strong enough to make a working Gateway, and Androl who's Talented enough to do what's considered impossible.

 

I agree with Wandering Channeler on this one -

 

Using Nightstrikes reasoning (forgive me if I've misunderstood) in the same way, if the story had been told from the Winfinders objective (heaven forbid) then making fireballs could be considered a Talent, as so few Windfinders can use fire weaves, but we know it's not a Talent, it's actually pretty straightforward, it's just the WF have no ability with fire. So making Gateways isn't a Talent, anyone can do it that has the requisite skill and power level. Talents are things that don't rely on Power or skill - Dreaming, foretelling identifying Taveran don't require Power, making Cuendillar (sp?) doesn't rely on power, although the ability to do it does appear to be more widespread than the other Talents, it's possible that Nyns ability to repeat a weave after seeing it once could also be called a Talent (as we have yet to find anybody else that can also do it).

 

I don't think anybodies arguing that channelers aren't talented (as in skilled) - but that's different from Talents.

[Craig Jarvis]

@ Wandering Channeler

 

I believe you have the gist of the discussion. The main reason I wanted to make an exponential power scale is mainly because at lower levels there isn't that much difference between channelers, but at higher rankings the difference of even a point is greater than two or three powerlevels combined. We see that in the books. The difference between Moiraine/Siuan/Elaida and the super girls (two ranks different) makes a world of difference in general capabilities and endurance, and (most of) the super girls aren't even at their peak yet.

 

To the talent's and skills and not-a-talent discussion. Healing is listed as a talent by the author(s) and staff and the Big Book. It has also been confirmed that healing DOES require the power, but the Talent overrides any power requirement. Thus any AesSedai who has the same amount of talent for healing as Nyneve even tho she is only a PL4 AS can heal just the same as Nyneve. The Talent for Nyneve's form of healing is different AND seperate form the old school style of healing talent. There can be talents that do not require the power (Fortelling, Dreaming, Viewing, Wolf Brother, etc...) and "Near-Talents" that only make doing something possible with the power easier/more powerful (Androl and his gateways, and Berowin and her shields). That is why I recommended that talents be listed as a Percentage of the most that is possible. That way regardless of channeling ability (for those that are power related) that percentage of the max capable is allowed.

 

Nyneve has, say, an 89% 5-powers healing, and 72% 3-powers healing. Androl has a 95% Gateways Talent, and Berowin has a 95% Shielding Talent. So in Berowin's case only a PL26 Male or a PL21 Female could have a chance of breaking her shield unles they had a Talent for breaking shields (which I think Lanfear mentions in tFoH, referring to Asmo's shield.

[Craig Jarvis]

As to the Shielding with a circle of 13 and the holding a shield with a circle of 6... I put this down to a stool needs 3 legs to stand on its own. There are certain minimums that without which some things are not guaranteed. A stool with less that three legs is not guaranteed to stand on its own... it may be precariously balanced, and stand for a time but once any force comes along great enough to disrupt that balance it will fall. It is just a literary balance technique to show that women tho less "powerful" can do things that men cannot and in ways men cannot. Plus add a man to the circle and the abilities become even more so, but the descriptions have not been fully disclosed at this point in the book. Great fun to discuss. However if you guys want to discuss other philosophies as to what you see in the power/linking debate. please divulge. These are just my thoughts. I need other's viewpoints to see if my thoughts stand up, if they do not then I need to re-tool them... Also others will have a completely diferent take due to different life experiences and viewpoints... some will never be resolved. And neither may be right, or both only partly so. So, pitch in. I respect all input so long as at least a little thought and observation have been used in formulating them.

[Vardar]

Glad I'm not the only one who constantly tries to work this out! Damn good math (I have a love hate things going on with math). One thought, and this gave me problems too when I tried to work out a system, Elayne is a lvl 15, while Ny is an 18. In one of the books, Elayne gains a "relatively weak" angreal (by relatively weak, I guess we can assume it's not too strong, and not too weak, so just below or near average), which makes her more than two times as strong as Ny. Taking that into context, the actualy levels must be slightly different from the number systems we're thinking of, otherwise any at least average Angreal (Which adds a static number not multiplying) would make near any channeler stronger than any unaided channeler. That just doesn't sit right with me for some reason. Not sure if you knew of that, or can somehow take it into your thought process.

[Craig Jarvis]

Well, First I am seeing the channelers comparing each other as looking at boulders (being a gold prospector, we spend alot of time looking at boulders, mind you). If you see one round boulder that is 10 feet wide (5 foot radius) and compare it to another round boulder that is 20 feet wide (10 foot radius) you would say the second boulder is twice as large. But if you were comparing weight you would say that the second boulder was almost 8 times heavier, given same density. (math involved, volume of a sphere 4/3*pi*radius^3 at a radius of 5 for the first boulder = 523 cubic feet and radius of 10 = 4188 cubic feet) if you multiplied the mass of the first boulder by 3 (with a rock'angreal) you would still not be half of the second boulders mass. (1569 cubic feet). If you link 3 boulders (in a stoning circle, LOL) with a radius of 3 would you have the same mass of a boulder of a radius of 9? No, not even close Radius 3 boulder contains 113 cubic feet, added together 3 times and you get 339 cubic feet, whereas a boulder of a radius of 9 would have a mass of 3053 cubic feet.

 

This is what I keep saying about statements in the book. It is about their perceptions. They see a channeling ability of ten (radius of 10) and might think that 2 sixes linked would exceed the 10, but it falls short, alot. But it is still twice what a six alone could do. In my mind when they say it doesn't add up, well it does, but not in the way they WANT it to. When an angreal doubles or triples a woman's channeling ability, it only triples the "mass" of their ability not their radius, to stick with my analogy, that is.

[Kamin_Majere]

I love this topic. Very interesting take on this.

 

I have not much more to add then that, but i love both the math that supports the scale of power and the idea of increases and multiplication differences with the different 'greal... this is truly inspired work i think

[Craig Jarvis]

Oh, I forgot to respond to your Elaine/Nyneve question. First a note, I think there is a difference between how much of the power you can use in your channeling before you blow a fuse, and how much you can spend over a time before you exhaust your battery. There I have incorporated some of the electrical theory into mine, still got alot to work on there. I am not sure which an angreal or sa'angreal increases, maybe both, maybe one more than the other, depending on which you are accessing.

With that out of the way , I think Angreal increase mainly the amount you can use before you are exhausted. So here goes:

 

Elaine at a 15 Powerlevel (say radius)= 4/3*pi*15^3=14137 in "how much she can channel (before exhaustion)" Times that by 3 with the angreal would be 42411.

 

Nyneve at a powerlevel of 18 (Radius of 18)=4/3*pi*18^3=24429.

 

So if it is a straight multiplier of Elaine's ability it would only make her a little less than twice as Power-full as Nyneve. That is if all my if's are correct... but enhh? who know.. pick what suits your fancy.

 

If we are talking about increasing how strong your channeling is being increased then let's look at the formulas for that (being area of a circle, not volume of a sphere):

 

Elaine at a 15 again=pi*15^2=706, then multiply it by 3 equals 2118.

 

Nyneve at an 18=pi*18^2=1017

 

*edited - because I fudged the circumference of a circle and the area of a circle formulas together.*

 

Now Elaine would be a bit more than twice as powerful as Nyneve, but does that mean that Elaine would exhaust herself three times as fast? Or does it also increase her capacity before exhaustion. I believe that Angreals only increase your capacity before exhaustion, and Sa'Angreals increase both your ability to channel "harder" and "longer". There is a sexual joke in there somewhere, if someone wants to pick that off.

 

But still not all the math adds up. So it isn't perfect. Refer back to the original post to see the formula for exhaustion, and the constants I have added in there to try and make the channeling durations at various powerlevels.

 

And thanks for posting.