Is Demandred Timolan?

[morkhon]

I feel like Demandred was indeed Taim, and RJ didn't like how quickly people figured it out so he changed his mind about that.

 

I'm way too outdated on the books to even try and pose a theory. I really need to do a complete re-read before the finale. Now's a good time to start.

 

Anyway, has there been consideration Dem is posing as a female somewhere? Or is that just...absurd? It's just that the theories I see are always males. Maybe it's something people wouldn't even consider.

[yoniy0]

Anyway, has there been consideration Dem is posing as a female somewhere? Or is that just...absurd? It's just that the theories I see are always males. Maybe it's something people wouldn't even consider.

Sure, no reason why not. In fact, we know of one other instance where that has happened: it was a female FS who impersonated Rand to Masema. It's just that there are no good candidates (of whom we know, but who hasn't been seen outside of ToM), and who has a 'rule' to secure.

[jmniles]

Is there an Ashaman that was named but never shown who is close to Taim?

[Sharaman]

Is there an Ashaman that was named but never shown who is close to Taim?

 

It doesn't matter - Demandred cannot be another Ashaman.

Take a look at Demandred's PoV at the Cleansing when he meets Flynn in WH. Not only does Dem not recognise Flynn; he doesn't recognise the uniform - thinking of him as an old man in a black coat.

RJ wrote in that PoV specifically to squash the Demandred = Taim theory and also to introduce the speculation that another Chosen was impersonating Demandred when he supposedly met two Ashaman (Rochaid/ Torval) earlier in WH and ordered them to kill the DR.

In KoD when the Forsaken meet at the dream Ansaline Gardens, we see Halima's PoV that suggests she could have been impersonating Demandred.

[BFG]

This is in no way meant to spark or even suggest Taimandred. Not sure if this is the right place for it, but this is the most recent Demandred thread.

 

I'm approaching halfway of a reread, and having read it concurrently(ish) with Chapter 1, there is a similarity between the two, depending on when Taim turned. In Chapter 1, Rand specifically said that no matter the honour accorded to Demandred, he was never satisfied - this seemed echoed with Taim when Rand was handing out the Dragon pins and also when Taim wants to be equals, but Rand forces him to be second. I wonder if this is important at all or just a coincidence. If Taim's turned by this point it doesn't really matter, if he hasn't it may become more interesting.

[morkhon]

When it comes to Dem's identity, I keep coming back to trying to make sense of the beginning and ending of LoC. He visits Shayol Ghul and the Dark One tells him to let the lord of chaos rule. At the end, he asks if he's done well..to which the Dark One laughs in glee. So obviously something he did during the book is related to letting the lord of chaos (Rand) rule, and it greatly pleased the DO. I don't think RJ would have it be some behind-the-scenes action that we didn't hear or see. So it should be obvious. So what did he do? It's gotta be key to figuring out his identity. Using Taim as a proxy? Meh...seems a bit weak to me.

 

To get back on subject, let me put it this way: did Timolan do anything of significance in LoC that would explain Dem's two scenes?

[Durinax]

This is in no way meant to spark or even suggest Taimandred. Not sure if this is the right place for it, but this is the most recent Demandred thread.

 

I'm approaching halfway of a reread, and having read it concurrently(ish) with Chapter 1, there is a similarity between the two, depending on when Taim turned. In Chapter 1, Rand specifically said that no matter the honour accorded to Demandred, he was never satisfied - this seemed echoed with Taim when Rand was handing out the Dragon pins and also when Taim wants to be equals, but Rand forces him to be second. I wonder if this is important at all or just a coincidence. If Taim's turned by this point it doesn't really matter, if he hasn't it may become more interesting.

I think Taim just has a similar personality, that of an alpha that is forced to be beneath someone else.

Personally I think Taim turned sometime soon after the pins incident.

[Mik]

Next to Roedran and Timolan, I've been digging for Demandred myself these past days;

I think it's Amel

 

Please take discussion him here, if you feel like checking it out:

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/75864-miks-warp-demandred-isclick-to-find-out/

(Note that this is 'general WoT discussion' section; no spoilers please!)

 

I still think there's room fro Shadow influence with both Roedran & Timolan, but now I'm convinced it's actually Amel that Demandred is impersonating.

[MasterAblar]

I think Taim just has a similar personality, that of an alpha that is forced to be beneath someone else.

Personally I think Taim turned sometime soon after the pins incident.

 

Same here. He really seemed to "break" at one point in that conversation.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think Taim just has a similar personality, that of an alpha that is forced to be beneath someone else.

Personally I think Taim turned sometime soon after the pins incident.

 

Same here. He really seemed to "break" at one point in that conversation.

 

While the "second man" thing is common, it is a bit different. Taim wanted to be the Dragon Reborn, he wanted glory. Rand, the Real Dragon turns up and he gets put down in a lesser role. Remember Taim wanted an alliance when he first went to Rand, a compact, but Rand shut him down. Then we have Taim with his blue Dragons and styling himself M'hael. He doesn't really care about Rand, he just wants to feel important. The Shadow obviously provided that.

 

Demandred on the other hand, wasn't necessarily power hungry. I mean, he isn't a selfless guy obviously, but it was a slow developing fury that grew too large. Over 350 years of achieving grand things, only to be overshadowed by the tiniest bit by Lews Therin. It is like recieving an A on your maths test only to have your parents overlook that for the other child who got an A+, saying "why couldn't you be like LTT."

 

We then have Rand admitting that he shunned and gave a bit of crap to Demandred when he always beat him. That he should have congratulated him instead of bragging that he did better.

 

So then this guy that has always been one step ahead, I mean, even born a day before you, shoving his victories in your face, when you think you are just as good, if not better. Finally, war strikes and Demandred finds he has a talent for it, and finally equals Lews Therin in something for once in his life, and they choose Lews Therin to be commander instead.

 

Still, Demandred stays fighting for the Light for 3 years until eventually he decides that Lews Therin is a fool and with him in command, the war will be lost. (I would say he argued for better strategy and better position in this time, much like the LTT and Latra Posae situation) SO he turns to the Shadow, his hatred of Lews Therin driven to the point of pure rage.

 

Sure, it isn't like he was a saint, I am not saying he was a totally awesome guy who got bullied to the point of no return. His decision to turn to the Shadow and his actions make him a bad guy, but it was, as Rand thinks, tragic, and ultimately preventable.

 

When compared to Demandred's story, Taim is nothing more than a petty, glory seeking thug.

[MasterAblar]

I think Taim just has a similar personality, that of an alpha that is forced to be beneath someone else.

Personally I think Taim turned sometime soon after the pins incident.

 

Same here. He really seemed to "break" at one point in that conversation.

 

While the "second man" thing is common, it is a bit different. Taim wanted to be the Dragon Reborn, he wanted glory. Rand, the Real Dragon turns up and he gets put down in a lesser role. Remember Taim wanted an alliance when he first went to Rand, a compact, but Rand shut him down. Then we have Taim with his blue Dragons and styling himself M'hael. He doesn't really care about Rand, he just wants to feel important. The Shadow obviously provided that.

 

Demandred on the other hand, wasn't necessarily power hungry. I mean, he isn't a selfless guy obviously, but it was a slow developing fury that grew too large. Over 350 years of achieving grand things, only to be overshadowed by the tiniest bit by Lews Therin. It is like recieving an A on your maths test only to have your parents overlook that for the other child who got an A+, saying "why couldn't you be like LTT."

 

We then have Rand admitting that he shunned and gave a bit of crap to Demandred when he always beat him. That he should have congratulated him instead of bragging that he did better.

 

So then this guy that has always been one step ahead, I mean, even born a day before you, shoving his victories in your face, when you think you are just as good, if not better. Finally, war strikes and Demandred finds he has a talent for it, and finally equals Lews Therin in something for once in his life, and they choose Lews Therin to be commander instead.

 

Still, Demandred stays fighting for the Light for 3 years until eventually he decides that Lews Therin is a fool and with him in command, the war will be lost. (I would say he argued for better strategy and better position in this time, much like the LTT and Latra Posae situation) SO he turns to the Shadow, his hatred of Lews Therin driven to the point of pure rage.

 

Sure, it isn't like he was a saint, I am not saying he was a totally awesome guy who got bullied to the point of no return. His decision to turn to the Shadow and his actions make him a bad guy, but it was, as Rand thinks, tragic, and ultimately preventable.

 

When compared to Demandred's story, Taim is nothing more than a petty, glory seeking thug.

 

I think you're in love.

 

Just kidding, Demandred's always been one of my favourite characters. Definitely favorite Forsaken, and I always wanted to know more about him and LTT.

 

I'm probably just being slow but what did you mean by this:

 

(I would say he argued for better strategy and better position in this time, much like the LTT and Latra Posae situation)

[herid]

 

Personally I think Taim turned sometime soon after the pins incident.

whatever Taim's back story this, this is quite out of the question. There are several reasons but I'll only mention one. Taim knew the test to detect the ability to channel when he came to Rand. There is absolutely no way Taim could have figured it out by himself. The test is very lengthy and very subtle and the subjects are very few. Somebody had to teach him the test. who could it have been? Only one of the male Forsaken.

[ta'maral'ailen]

2. The Timolan theory. Wel... think about it. If Demandred is playing Timolan, how he can play perfectly Aiel chief. Yes, the Chiefs aren't kings, they are "the most wise among the people", they are just ordinary men with unordinary responsibilites. Yes, they don't lack extraordinary qualities, but still they aren't seen as very different that ordinary men by their people. And that it's where Demandred would fail to deliver - in every day life as Aiel Chief, interacting with countless Aiels, who think of him almost equal to them and so they expect him to behave in very earthy manner, and in the same time to be wise and to behave better than them when it comes to Aiel customs and ji-e-toh, and even to determine the course of clan's ji-e-toh. It's all about that - there is no way Demandret to be able to learn how to behave like AIel chief without to do countless mistakes now and then, and eventually to get cought to be poser. You don't learn to be Aiel, you are born Aiel. Yes, Rand and Egwene pretty much became half-Aiel, but they still make mistakes about ji-e-toh, they still have so much to learn about Aiel and they way of life. You don't simply become Aiel. And another one thing - to be Aiel chief would be too much time consuming for Demandred, and I imagine that he have bigger plans than one Aiel clan.

 

And another one thing, again about his pride. Rand have many Aiel clans, at least 8 beneath his banner if I am not mistaken. Demandred wouldn't satisfy to lose all that time to prepare for the Last Battle and just controling one clas. It would embaras him grealy Lews Therin to have 8 clans againts only one for him. Do you imagine a person who is so jealous to Lews Therin to end up in such kind of situation - to voluntearly place himself so much below his opponent? I don't think so. No one from the male Forsakend would do this, and at least from all Demandred. Never Demandred.

 

And don't get bored, because here comes the most important part, or at least I view it as such. There are many Wise Ones which can enter TAR. They know about the Forsaken, it wouldn't be too much if we say they should even encountered some of them in the Dream. Don't you think they would be able figure out who Timolan realy is? Or don't you think they could figure it out just by entering his tens while he is asleep and he is in TAR? They could find out with Egwene after all, and it was prety easy for them. Yeah, the circumistances aren't the same, but only one little mistake and Demandred is dead. I don't think he would risk being killed by Aiel, which in his Age wouldn't be able even to defend themselves from him. It would be shameful for Demandred, he wouldn't risk to be ashamed by such a thing, not at all.

 

Thank you for your lengthy response! I will answer your criticisms. First of all about Demandred's acting as Timolan; I have already explained this earlier at how he would have been able to study intensively for a whole year. Apart from there is the fact that a lot of toh-causing actions won't be recognized by close friends of Timolan. (See earlier post for quote) And I disagree with your idea of what an Aiel chief is supposed to do. His leadership accounts for at least 10.000(0?) warriors, not forgetting everyone involved around them. That is a bit like being king of a very small country. (I know, I know, Aiel chiefs aren't kings) But still, this sort of leadership means he spends the better part of his day delegating instead of actively deciding things. He doesn't have to deal with Aiel everyday social behavior and if he occassionely does, he knows enough by then to make no mistakes. If he however did make mistakes, he would be able to say it is because of the pressure of dealing with the Car'a'carn / because of the new ways etc etc

So I really think Demandred would be capable of faking Timolan.

 

As to the argument of Rand having 8 (in fact Rand has 10 clans) clans and Timolan/Demandred 1. How could it possible embarass Demandred? I think he would be rather proud of the fact that he has been capable of living beneath Rand's nose and still causing an awful lot of trouble. He would be proud about how he turned an entire clan of Rand's own people, the People of the Dragon, against him. If Demandred succeeds in whatever plans he may have, he would be proud of how much chaos it would cause. Not only direct, whatever his plans will be, but also indirect; if an entire Aiel clan just leaves or does whatever, I am pretty sure the Bleakness will return stronger than ever. So yes indeed, Demandred has only 1 clan, but it would make him only more proud if he would be capable of causing so much trouble just with 1. He says himself that he is a brilliant planner (WH at the Cleansing, I think) and this would only prove it to be true.

 

And as a last thing, there are only 3 Aiel Dreamers so this point is not very valid, even less so if you would take a look at what herid posted as a reaction to this.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

I'm probably just being slow but what did you mean by this:

 

(I would say he argued for better strategy and better position in this time, much like the LTT and Latra Posae situation)

 

I meant that Demandred would have been trying to change the way the war was being fought. He thought LTT overcautious. He wouldn't have just kept silent and watched. He would have been publicly arguing for a better plan (in his view) and may even have had his own cadre of supporters for action. Obviously LTT ignored or dismissed this so when it was clear LTT wouldn't listen and things took a turn for the worst, he decided it was hopeless and turned.

 

The point of that being that he didn't just turn because he wasn't top dog. He spent 3 years trying to win, but made the "cold calculation" that they were doomed.