Is Demandred Timolan?

[Terez]

It can't be Timolan for the simple reason that he does show up on screen once in Egwene's POV in LOC, ch 24.

 

 

On the other hand, she was hardly up to returning to the city. She joined the Wise Ones in their sweat tent—for once they did not make her pour water over the hot rocks; Rodera did that—luxuriating in the damp heat as it relaxed her muscles, and only left because Rhuarc and two other clan chiefs, Timolan of the Miagoma and Indirian of the Codarra, joined them, tall massive graying men with hard sober faces. That sent her diving out of the tent to hastily wrap her shawl around her.

 

Agreed, that counts as on screen. Aside from that, the theory doesn't make much sense, Aiel clan chiefs don't "rule", it ties in with nothing else that we know Demandred has been up to, etc. But some people will do anything to remain in denial.

 

Is that directed at me?

 

No. If I wanted to respond to you I would respond to you.

[Terez]

[Roedran] is mentioned in Chapter 1

 

Funnily enough, when chapter one came out Terez and I both agreed that had Jordan written that reference it almost certainly would have ment Roedran wasn't Demandred.

 

I do agree though, under Brandon that reference does make it likely Demandred is Roedran.

 

Where was the subtlety?

[yoniy0]

Funnily enough, when chapter one came out Terez and I both agreed that had Jordan written that reference it almost certainly would have ment Roedran wasn't Demandred.

 

I do agree though, under Brandon that reference does make it likely Demandred is Roedran.

Will you expound?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Timolan? Yeah right as if Demandred could pull off pretending to be an Aiel. The Aiel have so many strange and obscure customs Demandred would have to use compulsion on everyone he meets just so they wouldn't notice the discrepancies.

[thisguy]

Do we ever see the Kind of Tarabon??? Aside from the King of Murandy, I can't think of anybody else who has not been seen on screen who is a ruler.............

[herid]

Timolan? Yeah right as if Demandred could pull off pretending to be an Aiel. The Aiel have so many strange and obscure customs Demandred would have to use compulsion on everyone he meets just so they wouldn't notice the discrepancies.

not to mention that he'd have to be able to run very long distances and keep up with the other Aiel. Timolan brought his clan to Cairhien from very far away and they did it on foot. There isn't any way Demandred could pull that off.

[Terez]

Do we ever see the Kind of Tarabon??? Aside from the King of Murandy, I can't think of anybody else who has not been seen on screen who is a ruler.............

 

Felix already beat you to this theory, lol. Seriously, he mentioned it on Twitter after the Brandon alter ego quote was revealed, and I said what I've always said about that: why would he bother, when at the time the Seanchan were Semirhage's territory? And what clues do we have pointing to the King of Tarabon? We don't even know his name. At least with Roedred we have clues, particularly beginning in TPOD (well before RJ said we could figure it out in 2001).

[Cybertrolloc]

Do we ever see the Kind of Tarabon??? Aside from the King of Murandy, I can't think of anybody else who has not been seen on screen who is a ruler.............

Carridan or one of Liandrin's meet him in tSR, probably enough to count as on screen, but would RJ remember that when giving his answer? Rumor is he's dead (in story rumor), there isn't much else on Tarabon. Perrin's trip to get Forkroot was to Amadicia, yes? (See what I did there?) It's one of many places (cough borderlands) that we have next to nothing on for books and books, and anything could plausibly be happening/have happened.

 

Something mildly interesting is up with Roedran and that's been obvious for books and books, don't get me wrong there :) But the same type of thing could be going on almost anywhere that isn't Andor/2Rivers, Carhein, Tier, Altara, Arad Doman, TV and possibly Illian among the obvious choices on the main continent. That the writer hasn't thought of that when twittering isn't my fault :(

[NitroS]

brandons already tryed to let people down easy by saying its not who he is but what hes been upto so everyone wont be satisfied with Roedran unless hes been upto something really interesting such as the beginnings of the black tower.

[Terez]

Do we ever see the Kind of Tarabon??? Aside from the King of Murandy, I can't think of anybody else who has not been seen on screen who is a ruler.............

Carridan or one of Liandrin's meet him in tSR, probably enough to count as on screen, but would RJ remember that when giving his answer? Rumor is he's dead (in story rumor), there isn't much else on Tarabon.

 

The Seanchan raised a new king and a new panarch. They aren't named.

[JakeBarnes]

Does his alter-ego have to be a named character?

All the way back in TFOH we had suspicious activity, or suspicious lack of activity, coming from Tarabon. Demandred had been working with Semirhage, is it really a stretch to assume that he wasn't in with her at that point and she helped get him a throne?

[Terez]

It pretty much has to be a named character because both RJ and Brandon said we had enough clues to figure out who it is. And why would Demandred want a throne under Seanchan rule anyway?

[Amandera]

More importantly why would a Forsaken help another Forsaken get power?

[Terez]

Well, in this case, we're talking about the most solid of the Forsaken alliances, and it makes a certain amount of sense. More than it would with other Forsaken anyway (which is not saying much). But there are other things about the argument that don't make so much sense.

[FanoLan]

It pretty much has to be a named character because both RJ and Brandon said we had enough clues to figure out who it is. And why would Demandred want a throne under Seanchan rule anyway?

 

This theory is starting to interest me, primarily due to my own suspicion regarding the Taraboner soldiers and their seemingly instantaneous loyalty to the Seanchan. A couple of times in the book, we get a reference to the Taraboners "stepping right quick" or responding like "fresh recruits" from the homeland (Seanchan). Demandred as the new king would explain a few things.

 

Terez - do you know when, in WoT world terms, we should have been able to determine Dem's identity? By which book had enough clues been provided? Identifying Dem as "the new king of Tarabon" could satisfy figuring out who he has supplanted without knowing the actual name. Not too much word twisting if that was the intent.

[Terez]

2001, which was just after the release of Winter's Heart. So you'd have to find clues from between TFOH (when we learned Andric was killed, IIRC) and WH.

[yoniy0]

Terez - do you know when, in WoT world terms, we should have been able to determine Dem's identity? By which book had enough clues been provided? Identifying Dem as "the new king of Tarabon" could satisfy figuring out who he has supplanted without knowing the actual name. Not too much word twisting if that was the intent.

What she said, and also Brandon once confirmed that it might be possible to deduce his identity based solely on LoC. Now, he himself said that he doesn't remember what happened in each book, but this still might mean you don't need WH, possibly not TPoD or ACoS as well (though nothing's certain).

[Orderofolde]

It would be pretty shocking to have Dobraine or Darlin or another man Rand is depending on to turn out to be Demandred, but now that we have Jesus-Rand no one of the shadow can hide from his eyes. He'd seen several of his supporters now, maybe we should look at those he has not seen. Or perhaps General Galgan. Maybe Mat takes him down when he goes hunting the man after finding out he's hiring assassins to kill Tuon, and having them killed. Still, it will likely be someone no one ever thought about and looking back we will all be in awe at RJ's cleverness yet again. Bayle Domon or Petra, anyone?

[Terez]

Terez - do you know when, in WoT world terms, we should have been able to determine Dem's identity? By which book had enough clues been provided? Identifying Dem as "the new king of Tarabon" could satisfy figuring out who he has supplanted without knowing the actual name. Not too much word twisting if that was the intent.

What she said, and also Brandon once confirmed that it might be possible to deduce his identity based solely on LoC.

 

Not exactly. I think the questioner was going for Taimandred, and Brandon honestly couldn't remember what happened in which book.

[yoniy0]

Brandon honestly couldn't remember what happened in which book.

I agree, but even so LoC is a fairly large margin from WH.

[ta'maral'ailen]

Sorry for taking so long to react! I have read the posts and ‘compiled’ your points into three categories. (Aiel society – category, what Demandred has been up to – category and ‘rule’-category)

 

Aiel society

Interesting but apart from the on-screen appearance in LoC, the Aiel are indeed terribly difficult to penetrate. Their family ties are very intricate, understanding Toh is impossible for an outsider and always liable to trip up outsiders. Also, the WOs watch clan chiefs like a bunch of hawks and also badger them. Any minor slips or changes in behaviour would be noted, not only by WO but also by other clan chiefs and sub-chiefs who interact continuously. It would also be difficult to Compel entire bunches of female channelers to overlook changes in a chief's personality since they all hang together all the time. Demandred would have had to study the Aiel in great detail and find a way to replace Timolan seamlessly.

I do not think this to be the case. Egwene, for example was with the Aiel for only a few months and still Sorilea thought Egwene, just before she left, could have been an Aiel because of her behavior. (Egwene was with the Aiel from 08-06 till 23-11).

LOC, Courage to Strengthen

Startingly, a smile bloomed on Sorilea’s leathery face. Her multitude of bracelets clattered as she shifted her shawl in a satisfied mannier. “You see? I told you she would understand. She could be Aiel.”

You could in fact say that we, as readers, understand a considerable part of Aiel society by just reading WOT. Rand never managed to understand Aiel society because he didn’t even try. Demandred almost had a year to understand the complex Aiel society. My earlier quote of Semirhage shows that she, though being with the Seanchan, understood some very detailed parts of Aiel society. And even if Demandred made a mistake of some sort regarding ji’e’toh, it could just as well have not been admitted by those close to him (see quote below).

ACoS, Unseen Eyes

Startled, she blinked. For an instant, Amys wore cadin’sor. She made some small gesture, too. Maiden handtalk, perhaps. Neither Bair nor Melaine, sipping their tea, gave any sign that they had noticed. […] To the Aiel, shame hurt far worse than pain, but it had to be witnessed to be shame. If it was not seen, or those who saw refused to admit it, then it might as well never have happened.

And if it would have been noted it just could be passed off as Timolan being not used to the situation. I am sure Rhuarc and the other Clan Chiefs have had to make some pretty strange decisions in the last couple of years. Rand even managed to make them put aside their blood feuds by just being ta'veren. So I do think Demandred would be capable of replacing Timolan.

 

What Demandred has been up to

Another point made is that it would not serve Demandred to be Timolan if one looks at what Demandred has been up to.

Well, in this case, we're talking about the most solid of the Forsaken alliances, and it makes a certain amount of sense. More than it would with other Forsaken anyway (which is not saying much). But there are other things about the argument that don't make so much sense.

I am not entirely sure what you think Demandred has been up to, because as far as I know we don’t actually know anything at all about what Demandred has been up to. So I would rather like to explain what Demandred most likely will have been up to if he is Timolan.

 

Mesaana’s capture

After Mesaana’s failed attempt to get Rand to the White Tower, Graendal and Sammael talk about the attempt after meeting with Sevanna.

ACoS, Pattern within Patterns

“Mesaana had a hand in it, though. Maybe Demandred and Semirhage as well, despite how it ended, but Mesaana certainly.” [sammael]

If Demandred is Timolan it would fit in quite nicely with the earlier quote of Timolan being suspicious, that way Demandred would have helped Mesaana by just acting as his alter ego and being suspicious. Quite the ideal situation, not?

LOC, The Sending

“Five thousand from different societies; a few more than five. I could not bring many. Timolan was suspicious as it is that I did not go with him against the Shaido. If it becomes common knowledge that Aes Sedai hold the Car’a’carn, I fear the bleakness will swallow us all.” [Rhuarc]

Without Taim’s help Rand ‘rescue’ would have been a bit different. If Timolan hadn’t been suspicious, Rhuarc could have taken a lot more Aiel with him in the pursuit and would have been better capable of rescuing Rand.

 

Mat’s Aiel

LOC, Heading South

Something caught his ear, he was not sure what. If the night had not been so still, the faint sound might not have seemed furtive, but it was and it did. Who would be sneaking around up here? Curious, he lifted up on an elbow –and froze. Like moonshadows, shapes moved around his tent. Moonlight caught one enough for him to make out a veiled face. Aiel? What under the Light? Silently they surrounded the tent, closed in; bright metal flashed in the night, whispers of cloth being sliced, and they vanished inside.”

It still isn’t clear who sent the Aiel attack on Mat in his camp in LOC. If Demandred has control over an entire Aiel clan, I do think it would be much clearer.

 

Aiel chiefs don’t ‘rule’

TGS, What the Storm Means:

“My rule is secure,” Demandred said simply. “I gather for war. We will be ready.”

What seems clear to me is that Demandred was knowingly vague about his plans. He just doesn’t want Graendal to know anything. The quote below shows that Mesaana and Demandred aren’t too happy to be interrogated in front of Graendal by Moridin.

TGS, What the Storm Means

Mesaana paled just slightly, glancing at Graendal. Demandred’s face grew red, as if he was incredulous that they would be interrogated in front of another Chosen.

 

*salutes Ta'maral'ailen again*

 

As to Mik, my fellow-Dutchman, I thank you for your salutations and will return them: Gegroet!

[thisguy]

I have a question - if Demandred is posing as Roedran, what's he going to do? So, he gathers an army. Are they all DFs? I think pretty much any normal person would realize something's going on in the world. Unless he attacks Southward into into Altara and the Seanchan, I almost don't see the point. Unless I missed something, you can only forcibly turn channelers to the darkside. Caemlyn's being overrun with trollocs, so that's a waste. Illian? I suppose you could attack Illian, but the common soldier must know that the DR is now king of Illian....

 

Any ideas....

[ta'maral'ailen]

Last argument I forget to mention. If Demandred is Roedran, how is it possible that Graendal wouldn't know that? Graendal's network of DF has been capable of finding Mesaana in the White Tower and has been able to learn independently that Semirhage is among the Seanchan. Graendal knew were every Forsaken was, but just happened to overlook Demandred being Roedran? It is just not plausible.

[FanoLan]

2001, which was just after the release of Winter's Heart. So you'd have to find clues from between TFOH (when we learned Andric was killed, IIRC) and WH.

 

Thanks Quotemistress. As the time for speculation draws to a close, even the most wild theories succor more attention. Something is up with the Tarabon soldiers, and it seems possible Dem's involved as one of his ongoing concerns. As part of the GLoD's apparent plan to instigate as much human on human violence as possible before TG, the newly minted King of Tarabon would prove a well placed tool. Not too much time and attention required to "further the cause."

 

Amys' evaluation of Tanchico in T'a'R also seemed to require more of an explanation than Mog's passing interest would explain. The cracks in the buildings and other signs of the presence of the shadow were pervasive. IIRC, Mog had not established Tanchico as home base, but was more of a rogue presence there. Maybe the Liandrin crew inspired such a response in T'a'R, but other instances of widespread shadow impact were due to extended Forsaken presence (Illian, Tear, Tar Valon...).

[Bastor]

Egwene flees in mortification when Rhuarc, Timolan and Indirian join the Wise Ones in the sweat tent. (LoC,Ch24)

- From WoT Encyclopaedia

 

 

 

So...Timolan was in the sweat tent....so he had a ..."scene" I guess....

 

Maybe Demandred is a char without a "scene" in terms of PoV scene and not an actually presence scene?