Cyndane's Strength (poll)

[Thor]

Go go cwestervelt.

[chemteach1977]

Let me take a few swings at this dead horse.

 

Let's say Lanfear started at 100, strongest a woman can be. (not a terrible assumption)

 

I think the weakest we could put Siuan would be around 40-50. Siuan was one of the stronger AS in centuries. But i will weaken my point and accept that Siuan ranks around 30. Siuan and Leane were hoping that Nyn could heal them a 2nd time and maybe get EVEN HALF of what they were BEFORE (being stilled). Any other reading of that sentence is just silly.

 

So that puts Siuan at at MOST a 14. Probably less, because she thinks a bump up to half her original strength (15) would really help her standing. I would guess she is at most 1/3 her original strength judging by her fervent hope to get back to 1/2. Again i will weaken my point and say she is at 12.

 

Obviously if the loss in power is by %, then LanfeDane does not fit. But even if the loss is static, Siuan lost around 18 by my estimation which is still a loss 18% of Lanfear's original strength.

 

(By my preferred numbers i would say Siuan dropped from at least a 40 so she must be 15 or less. A drop of 25. Which would mean Cyndane is only 3/4 as strong as Lanfear was)

 

So to take the whole severed and healed by a woman we must assume:

 

1. Lanfear got severed. (not to hard to believe)

2. Lanfear got dead. (very likely if she was severed)

3. Lanfear got brought by DO. (almost certain if 2 is correct)

4. Being brought back did NOT fix the severing. (i have a big problem with this, others do not)

5. The dark side knew about healing severed channelers but did not figure out the problem with same gender healing. (possible through Delana or others but makes the dark side as stupid as everyone else)

6. Lanfear lost 1/5 of her strength but is still stronger than Graendal. (Aye, there's the rub. Depends all on one's POV)

[Graendals favourite]

Number 5 on that list brings up an additional possibility. Whilst I don't think the Shadow had at their disposal a male method of healing severing, if they didn't know about it, it isn't trivial to second Nynaeve and Flinn's feat at discovering the Healings.

 

However, they did have Semirhage. Instead of having a Black sister do the Healing, a better way might be to have her show it to Semirhage. It would not be impossible that she could do it better than Nynaeve on her first tries; even the other Yellows immediately set about bettering it, giving out opinions how Nynaeve was rough with it.

[Luckers]

Did you also like the fact that I saved you the need to explain how Siuan also used to be able to pick up about 3 times her own weight? It is right their where she talks about ho lifting something being one of the hardest things to do. Unless Gareth is a serverly obese, or Siuan in anorexic I doubt he would come in at much over 2 times Siuan's weight.

 

Oh wait, your right! Wow, Suine cannot achieve what she used to, therefore she must be barely able to channel! Well done!

 

I'm sorry? What? We all know she lost strength cwestervelt. She went from being strong to some point under the ability to achieve one of the 'hardest things to do'. We all know this.

 

But hey, if you figure you made a point, im happy for you.

 

Unless... are you actually suggesting that the ability to lift certain weights is directly proporitional to a rise in strength? Dude, Suine was never strong enough for that to be the case. The fact that it is described as one of the hardest things to do means that dude, it has to be pretty damn hard to do. Otherwise it would have gone under the other word used to describe the other things... specifically, 'easy'.

 

Or are you saying that you think Suine was three times stronger then the average Aes Sedai?

 

I notice you ignore the part that deals with how the mode of thoughts show that even Suine doesn't think the inability to lift things is indicative of any especial weakness.

 

At what point does she split her flows 3 ways? When they change the chain? That wouldn't require splitting flows. Unless you are going to start claiming that they hold the weaves for their disguises 24 x 7 when they use them.

 

Well yes, I suppose i am 'claiming that'.

 

A tied off weave is self-sustaining, not maneuvrable. A disguise would not move with its channeler if merely tied off. You want evidence? See what Elayne does in Kod when attacking the Black Ajah. Sustaining a disguise there is beyond foolish, if she could simply tie it off. A drain on strength when preparing for a confrontation? And Suine when she rides through the Rebel camp specifically releases saidar as she lets the disguise go.

 

The three weaves were the two webs that go into making cuendillar and the disguise. Three sustained weavings, all of which are inverted and therefore they must have been established a conciderable time earlier, and sustained over the time it took Leane to get in place.

 

Your right, she is completely innefectual now.

 

"If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half." That pretty much says right out that they are still less than 1/2 of what they were before being Stilled. Else half of what they were wouldn't be better than what they are now. So we have the only reliable sources concerning the strength loss claiming that they are less than 50% of her former strength. That just doesn't fit with the relatively minor strength loss that Lanfear has. Which is highly indicative of Lanfear not having had the same stilled/healed experience. You may not like it, but the books don't support you.

 

Unless... oh my... they are actually referring to whats missing. But lets not get crazy and think they're actually addressing the problem.

 

They have been healed. You seem to be forgetting that. On their minds is the difference between their current strength and their original strength, or more specifically the differences between what they were and what they are, socially speaking. Their social standing is beyond 50% of what it was. But the social hierarchy from 1 to 100, covers a range of strengths from 20% to 40%. Currently i'd guess they were somewhere around 28%, under the average and forced to bend to everyone around.

 

My god cwestervelt, the entire sentence, the entire chapter is focused on the decline in strength IN RESPECTS to the impications this has on their social standing, and you think that it irrelevant.

 

In reality we have seen that they are still perfectly effective as chanellers, and their position in the hierarchy proves that they are not so reduced in strength that they couldn't be Aes Sedai, your precious paragraphs makes it more then clear that they still outrank some Aes Sedai.

 

If, as you say, Suine and Leane lost more then 50% of their strength (you were suggesting 90% weren't you?) then that would leave them at 4% strength... they wouldn't even be able to channel, they certainly wouldn't outrank a single Aes Sedai... in fact i extremely doubt they would have been allowed to remain Aes Sedai.

 

Do you disagree that they are still strong enough to be Aes Sedai? Because if they are, then their decline in strength expressly forbids them having lost half their strength. Sorry buddy.

 

Lanfear and Suines and Leanes loss in strength are even.

 

Anyway, I should know better than to try and disprove people with an entirely unsupported pet theory. I can give textual evidence that the result of Stilling/Healing by a woman is less than 50% of the persons original strength. Your best counter is that since Lanfear didn't lose that much, Siuan and Leane couldn't have. Nice. Claim an unfounded assumption as proof to attempt to disprove a qualifiable fact. Real nice.

 

This is a waste of my time...

 

Your an arrogant bastard, which i should recognise, because i am to. Nevertheless that crosses the line...

 

You get no more respect from me. Sorry.

 

And this from someone who still thinks Taim is a good guy.

[rd2000]

I have tried and tried Luckers, but I cannot follow your reasoning.

"If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half."

 

That tells me beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were reduced to LESS than half their original strength.

[Thor]

Exactlyssimo.

[Graendals favourite]

Oh, number 4 in chemteach1977's list is simply not a problem. Being reinstalled into a new body doesn't fix their being stilled, or erase their memories or abilities. Balthamel certainly doesn't immediately adjust to womanhood, too, as far as the body is concerned, and even after enjoys flirting with Graendal whilst liking men also which I understand he didn't before. However, there's nothing turning him away from using saidin, so that is a purely spiritual thing, unlike the other. Indeed, if recycling anulled these things, we'd have a bunch of babies as Forsaken, which is why being reborn is a completely different thing. In the same way, Mordeth retained all his abilities when he took over Padan Fain's body.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hmm ...

 

Yes, that quote presents a real problem to me, because I'm sorry, Luckers, the syntax says that Siuan and Leane are at less than half of their former strength. From Lord of Chaos, chapter 30 To Heal Again:

 

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most would be as strong, and a good many stronger.

 

The phrase "what we were" is the key. She is quite clearly saying that their current state is less than half of what they were. And then she goes on to say that if Nynaeve could Heal them back to half of what they were, then most would still be as strong, and a good many stronger. That clearly implies that in their current state, they are not average in the ranks of Aes Sedai strength, but very, very close to the bottom.

 

I think I'm going to have to say I was wrong on this one ... which raises serious questions about Lanfear being Healed in the same way, since it is ludicrous to think that less than half her previous strength would be roughly equal to any of the Forsaken ...

 

The problem is, I don't see any other way Lanfear could have been weakened in the Power. It doesn't make sense for the Dark One to do it as punishment, that would only weaken his own servant, and we have no independent indications that the Eelfinn are able to affect a soul that way. The only other instance we have in the books of anyone being weakened in the power is Siuan and Leane being Healed from stilling, and Lanfear having been burned out by the ter'angreal doorway makes sense in every other way.

 

An interesting problem .... :D

[Cybertrolloc]

- Half of Suian is still pretty good (she was one of the strongest).

 

- Weaker tool isn't that great of an argument. This is the same DO that turned Bath and Ag into a woman and a farmer ;) RJ has said the DO works in ways that will be unscrutable to his characters for the most part (say Dem and company's bafflement at parts of the master plan ).

 

- That Suian and Leane have to exactly mirror what happened to Lanfear probably is a poor assumption too. Ny wasn't too happy with just using the same weave that worked on Logain for example, and Lanfear didn't reappear until a few months down the line...

[Thor]

I prefer simple explanations and the simplest is that the Finns weakened her, so simple, so simple.

 

And no, I am pretty sure that somewhere in the books there was a comment that Siuan and Leanne would barely if at all be able to test for Accepted, such is how weak they have become.

 

And I also don't buy this whole thing about DO punishing Lanfear weakening her either, it is dumb and redundant.

[V1zharan]

Cybertrolloc, what you said doesn't at all have to do with the DO weakening a tools power, making a guy into a girl and a girl into a guy isnt weakening anybody

Suian was strong, but not NEARLY strong enough to be pretty good after getting her power halved

there is no proof that the weave affects a females power differently each time a woman heals a woman, I will admit, there is no proof that it would work the same each time either, but why wouldnt it work the same if it's the same weave(and you cant try saying Nynaeve gave the weave a make-over, or that someone else did)

 

~V1zharan~

[RobertAlexWillis]

Half of Suian is still pretty good (she was one of the strongest).

 

But Leane implies that they are considerably less than half, and every Aes Sedai we've seen basically treats Siuan like a kitchen scullion.

 

This is the same DO that turned Bath and Ag into a woman and a farmer

 

Neither of which changes weakened them ... in fact, they were enabled to go about their missions more smoothly ... I doubt Delana could have passed off a male personal secretary.

 

RJ has said the DO works in ways that will be unscrutable to his characters for the most part

 

He also said that the DO isn't interested in punishment for the sake of punishment, but that he is only interested in people as tools of value. Weakening a tool you still intend to use isn't "inscrutable", its stupid, and nothing we've seen indicates that the DO is that stupid.

 

That Suian and Leane have to exactly mirror what happened to Lanfear probably is a poor assumption too. Ny wasn't too happy with just using the same weave that worked on Logain for example, and Lanfear didn't reappear until a few months down the line...

 

That could be true. While a female can't Heal another female fully, it may be that a higher percentage can be obtained with refined technique.

 

I prefer simple explanations and the simplest is that the Finns weakened her, so simple, so simple.

 

Yes, so simple that we've never seen them do it, or seen anything remotely like it from them. People give the Eelfinn way too much power. They aren't Deus Ex Machina either.

[Thor]

Which is more difficult, reading threads of pattern, stuffing memories into you, or weakening the ability to channel.

 

Well, I don't know which is most difficult, but weakening the ability to channel seems the easiest to me. Heck even Lanfear could weaken Asmodean.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Which is more difficult' date=' reading threads of pattern, stuffing memories into you, or weakening the ability to channel.

 

Well, I don't know which is most difficult, but weakening the ability to channel seems the easiest to me. Heck even Lanfear could weaken Asmodean.[/quote']

 

I don't think what Lanfear did to Asmodean was comparable to what was done when Lanfear became Cyndane. Asmodean still had his full potential but was shielded in such a way that he was prevented from drawing as much as he could handle. The description concerning Lanfear indicate that her potential is marginally less than what it was before.

[Thor]

Yes I am aware of that, but I was using it as an example.

 

Assuming the Finns are more powerful than Lanfear, which they are, then it shouldn't be beyond them to weaken Lanfear.

[cloglord]

Just to weigh in on a matter of semantics.

 

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most would be as strong, and a good many stronger.

 

What they were was the two most influential Aes Sedai in the world. I can't say that Luckers is right, but I can say that the context leaves what they were vauge. It could mean their social standing within the aes sedai or it could mean their relative OP strength.

 

Here's a few examples and you guys can decide if power means OP strength or influence.

 

TGH Ch. 7 Moraine thinks about Lanfear that.

she was the most powerful Forsaken after Ishamael.

 

And again in Chapter 50 of TDR Moraine mentions that Lanfear and Ishmael are the strongest forsaken.

 

Does this mean that Lanfear was as influential as Ishmael or does it mean that she was freakishly strong in the OP? If she is Cyandane as we suspect wouldn't you say that she is less than half as influential as she was? If she really was nearly as strong as Ishmael in the OP and Ishamel was nearly as strong as LTT, wouldn't half of that be enough to be as strong as a forsaken class female channeler? I mean Rand, was able to handle Egwene and Elayne like kittens. For that matter Lanfear was able to handle Egwene and Avhienda like kittens. Wouldn't half of Rand's strength still be a match for Graendal?

 

I will return to the safety of my fencesitting by saying that I do not believe that we have nearly enough information to conclusively determine what it was that caused Lanfear's drop in power.

[Thor]

Elayne, Aviendha and Egwene are weak so that hardly counts. Just because they are much stronger than the normal Aes Sedai doesn't really speak much for them. Nynaeve is just average strengthed as far as the powerful people are concerned.

 

Lanfear is also clearly weaker than Rand/LTT when they both had their angreals, Rad just couldn't bring himself to kill Lanfear.

 

Ishamael is not nearly as strong as Rand, Ishamael is as strong as Rand. I still don't know how Rand beat him 3 times in a roll especially when he is still so inexperienced, but meh, I'll take it as a plot device. (Probably because Ishy wanted to turn Rand the first two times and Rand had Callandor for the third time.)

 

Getting off-topic there.

 

The point is, it is highly unlikely that half of Rand/Ishy/Lanfear can be stronger than Graendal.

And since Moiraine and Siuan are reduced to less than half of their original strength, it makes it even less likely that Lanfear was healed by a woman.

 

We already eliminated the DO punishment theory.

 

That leaves the Finns.

 

Bah, now we're just going around in circles.

[cloglord]

I am unsure why you dismiss Egwene and Avhienda's strength as negligible, but that aside, Rand is signifigantly stronger than most any female channeler. For evidence of this you only need to look to LoC where LTT thinks that he could handle 3 aea sedai pretty easily. It is only when the possibility of having to face 7 at once LTT gets worried. If Rand/LTT aren't worried about being able to shield 3 aes sedai after they are already embracing the source, it would seem to me that he is at least twice as strong as any 3 aes sedai.

 

Secondly, Lanfear and Rand were pretty evenly matched at the docks in Carhien. I suggest you re-read it. Of course we know absolutely nothing about the relative strengths of the two angreal, so that battle can not be used as a definitive test of Rand's strength Vs. Lanfear's.

 

It boils down to the fact that we do not know whether Suian is refering to her loss of OP ability or her loss in social status, when she makes her comments on her loss of power in LoC. Secondly we do not know how much stronger Lanfear was than Graendal before her trip to Ghenji-land, so it is pretty pointless for us to try and determine a cause for her loss of OP strength, based on the amount of power she has lost.

[Thor]

No, they were not evenly matched. Rand is clearly stronger, read it again. That is why he was so upset about Moiraine's death, because he knew he could have destroyed Lanfear.

 

And I did not say Egwene and etc are negligible, I said they are weak. (compared to the powerful people)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Which is more difficult, reading threads of pattern, stuffing memories into you, or weakening the ability to channel.

 

That depends on who you are, Thor. For a channeler, affecting someone else's channeling is not terribly difficult, if you're stronger than they are (like Lanfear was stronger than Asmodean). However, if you can't channel (like the 'Finn's) then it is virtually impossible. They can read the Pattern because their world is "folded" in strange ways, and besides, reading the Pattern isn't linked to channeling: Min can't channel a lick. So for her, reading the Pattern is easy, but weakening someone's ability to channel would be impossible.

 

As for fulfilling Mat's requests, they just gave him some stuff they had in their treasury, and put some memories they had scavenged into his head. The Dreamwalkers have already proved you don't have to be able to channel to get into someone's head.

 

Nothing the Eelfinn have ever done gives us any reason to think that they can in any way effect a persons ability to channel. They have other abilities, yes, but they can't "just do anything". Its not like the genie in the bottle, where you get three wishes, and whatever you want can be done. People have made immense assumptions based on Mat's one experience.

[chemteach1977]

Noticed Luckers responded to others but not to my post. The numbers just don't seem to work out unless you pretend this sentence means anything other than what it says.

 

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most would be as strong, and a good many stronger.

 

Besides stating that Nynaeve's healing took them to less than 1/2 their original strength (not sure they would refer to "healing" social status) there is one other thing to note. Notice the second sentence. IF they could be healed to half of what they were "most would be as strong." Meaning from Leanne's POV anyway that she was twice as strong as MOST AS.

 

We can argue against the loss of standing. We can argue about the range of AS power levels. But here we have a direct quote about strength in the OP. Siuan and Leanne used to be twice as strong as most AS and now they are weaker than most AS. Whether the loss is static or a % of power. I just don't buy the stilling/healing theory. Unless there is a wrinkle we have not seen on stage like slightly different weaves working somewhat better.

[cloglord]

Thor, I've read that scene many many times, but on your suggestion I read it again, and I'm still right.

 

He thinks that he could kill Lanfear if he could bring himself to, but he doesn't know that for sure. At the same time that he is thinking that he could kill her he is thinking things like this.

 

"Her attempts to shield him did not slow; they came faster,stronger. He could not believe she was so strong. Clinging to the Void, to searing, freezing saidin, he defended himself wildly."

 

TFoH 631

 

Or course this is after they have both started using angreal, but these sorts of descriptions were used before Rand started using the fatman, and before Lanfear bumped into the wagon and picked up her own angreal.

 

"Frantically - even in the Void, frantic; emptiness shimmered, dwindled - he wove Spirit and Fire and Earth, flailing it wildly."

 

TFoH 630

 

Not once in the entire battle does it appear that Rand has the upper hand. Not once.

 

 

Chemteach,

 

Luckers did adress your point. He said that he didn't believe that the quote in question was related to a OP strength, but was instead refering to their social status.

 

Your basic assumption that the quote means OP strength is different than Lucker's assumption that the quote is refering to their standing within the Aes Sedai Hierarchy.

 

Even if it is the case, that your quote is in reference to OP strength, I don't see how that disqualifies Lanfear/Cyandane as a recovered burnout. If you read your quote that way it seems to suggest that Suian was twice as strong as MOST aes sedai. That would make her pretty exceptional, yet even in her current state she is strong enough to maintain the minimum strength standards for Aes Sedai. If Lanfear was an exceptionally strong forsaken, why wouldn't she still be stong enough to maintain the minimum strength standards of Forsaken?

 

Another possibility is that there is a difference between the psychic wounds inflicted by stilling and burnout. Take the case of an amputee. The end result of having an arm caught in a jet engine is amputation. So is the end result of having it blown off in an explosion, and the end result of having it cut off cleanly. However the treatment for each of those injuries is vastly different, and have different degrees of success. What if being burntout is like having your shoulder pop out of its socket, and being stilled is like having an arm amputated? In either case you lose the use of the arm, until its treated. But one is much easier to fix, and have less longterm effect.

 

Again, we simply do not know enough.

[rd2000]

I still don't see how anyone could take that to mean social standing. Siuan specifically says "strong" and "stronger" those are not terms one uses when thinking of one's social standing. It has to be her thinking of their strengths in the OP.

[Thor]

Social standing is just an eupheism of a sort for strength in power (Aes Sedai are almost like these movement protestors, everything has to be politically correct or something). So whenever they talk about "standing" they are talking about the strengts.

 

Look, you can believe what you think, but the truth is as I and many many others have said, Siuan and Leanne are barely stronger than some of the novices even.

 

About the part where Rand thinks that Lanfear's strikes are coming faster and faster, that is just because the females have greater dexterity and Rand simply couldn't bring himself to brute force his way through.

[chemteach1977]

We seem to be carrying on two thought processes in here now.

 

Original thread:

 

How can another person "heal" another's social standing. The language seems pretty clear and it takes some pretty extreme verbal gymnastics to make them say anything else.

If you read your quote that way it seems to suggest that Suian was twice as strong as MOST aes sedai. That would make her pretty exceptional, yet even in her current state she is strong enough to maintain the minimum strength standards for Aes Sedai. If Lanfear was an exceptionally strong forsaken, why wouldn't she still be stong enough to maintain the minimum strength standards of Forsaken?

 

I think the text makes it clear that Siuan and Leane went from extremely strong AS (Leanne certainly feels that she was twice as strong as most AS) to simply "meeting the standards." Lanfear on the other hand is still stronger than Graendal. Cyndane does not just "maintain the minimum strength standard of Forsaken." Cyndane is likely still the strongest female forsaken.

 

I will grant the possibility that Lanfear's healing was different for some reason. But that is complete speculation. We cannot support it from the book because we have never seen it. The reason i am so interested in this topic is because i don't think we can figure it out from info provided so far.

 

Lanfear/Rand strength thread:

 

Not sure females in general have greater dexterity but Lanfear has a few centuries of practice at channeling, certainly she could run circles around Rand who is still pretty darn new to channeling. The fact is Lanfear is trying as hard as she can (i think) to kill Rand but cannot. The tremendous experience difference would imply Rand must be stronger to be able to hold out. Purely oppinion there. The fact we only see from Rand's POV and the angreal involved make it tough to say for sure.