[Full Prologue Spoiler] The Punishment of Cyndane

[Rufae]

I think it was in ToM that Rand felt that he was safe from the Dark One's minions because his death was either not possible now that he had fully transformed or else it would not accomplish anything towards the DO's goal.

 

So that said, what is the purpose of Cyndane's death order for Rand?

[dwn]

I think it was in ToM that Rand felt that he was safe from the Dark One's minions because his death was either not possible now that he had fully transformed or else it would not accomplish anything towards the DO's goal.

 

So that said, what is the purpose of Cyndane's death order for Rand?

 

Assuming it was Cyndane actually giving the order, I can think of a few reasons:

 

1) Pique

2) To hurt Moridin

3) To annoy Demandred

4) It would make it easier/possible for the DO to achieve a 'draw'

5) It's another distraction and not actually meant to succeed

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

There is a plot to KO Rand - unless Shaidar lied to Graendal.

The dreamscene in ToM suggests strongly that Cyndi is involved.

[yoniy0]

I think it was in ToM that Rand felt that he was safe from the Dark One's minions because his death was either not possible now that he had fully transformed or else it would not accomplish anything towards the DO's goal.

I don't believe Rand ever said anything of the sort. Will you please provide a quote?

[MarkDiLillo]

There is a plot to KO Rand - unless Shaidar lied to Graendal.

The dreamscene in ToM suggests strongly that Cyndi is involved.

 

The dream scene is almost certainly not a trap and was indeed a case of Rand/Moridin merging and seeing a Mierin that is legitimately in distress. Whether or not this will result in anything other than "Oh that sucks for her" is yet to be seen though.

[yoniy0]

The dream scene is almost certainly not a trap and was indeed a case of Rand/Moridin merging and seeing a Mierin that is legitimately in distress. Whether or not this will result in anything other than "Oh that sucks for her" is yet to be seen though.

How does that sit with Brandon's comment regarding surprises with regard to Cyndane's apparent intents?

[MarkDiLillo]

The dream scene is almost certainly not a trap and was indeed a case of Rand/Moridin merging and seeing a Mierin that is legitimately in distress. Whether or not this will result in anything other than "Oh that sucks for her" is yet to be seen though.

How does that sit with Brandon's comment regarding surprises with regard to Cyndane's apparent intents?

 

It sits fine because his comment was ambiguous at best.

 

There are too many stretches in the story that would have to be made for that dream sequence to be a trap. Given my opinion of BSs work, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that he screwed up that badly, but I find it unlikely.

 

1) How could Mierin/Moridin possibly assume that Rand would recognize her with a new body? They were just assuming that he would recognize her soul through her eyes?

2) Why wouldn't she have appeared in the body of Lanfear if it was a dream and she was attempting to trap him? So that he could actually recognize her...

3) Why would Rand even try to rescue a Forsaken? He never showed any favoritism towards Lanfear nor did he display any feelings towards her other than disgust.

 

Furthermore, a sentence in chapter 1 indicates that Rand suspects its a trap and dismisses the entire dream. If it was a trap then it was a terrible error by the author and the scene wasn't thought through at all.

[Neophyte]

The dream scene is almost certainly not a trap and was indeed a case of Rand/Moridin merging and seeing a Mierin that is legitimately in distress. Whether or not this will result in anything other than "Oh that sucks for her" is yet to be seen though.

How does that sit with Brandon's comment regarding surprises with regard to Cyndane's apparent intents?

 

It sits fine because his comment was ambiguous at best.

 

There are too many stretches in the story that would have to be made for that dream sequence to be a trap. Given my opinion of BSs work, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that he screwed up that badly, but I find it unlikely.

 

1) How could Mierin/Moridin possibly assume that Rand would recognize her with a new body? They were just assuming that he would recognize her soul through her eyes?

2) Why wouldn't she have appeared in the body of Lanfear if it was a dream and she was attempting to trap him? So that he could actually recognize her...

3) Why would Rand even try to rescue a Forsaken? He never showed any favoritism towards Lanfear nor did he display any feelings towards her other than disgust.

 

Furthermore, a sentence in chapter 1 indicates that Rand suspects its a trap and dismisses the entire dream. If it was a trap then it was a terrible error by the author and the scene wasn't thought through at all.

 

1) Recognition of people despite their changes in body is commonplace in these books. The Moggyrachnid recognizes the Graeffalump within literally seconds of seeing her in her new body. Moridin knows that Rand is aware of the Dark One's ability to transmigrate bodies, so seeing Mierin in another body would not seem impossible. It's a stretch in real life, but not in this story, apparently.

 

Perhaps being in Tel'aran'rhiod or a dreamshard (which shares some aspects of Tel'aran'rhiod) aids in the recognition of a soul. Rand is able to finally recognize Moridin in his dreamshard. Rand also felt that the pieces of himself fit together better in the dreamshard - perhaps being in a dreamshard reveals something more of one's true essence.

 

Whatever the reason, it doesn't seem that hard for people to recognize others in different bodies.

 

2) Rand would probably have been more suspicious if she had appeared in her original body. Having been transmigrated into another body means that she died - she failed - and lends credence to the idea that she is actually being punished.

 

3) He's never been as fully Lews Therin as he is right now. And whether it squares with what we think of him or not, their assessment of his attraction to her is accurate, at least according to the author. As soon as he recognizes her "he felt hatred, concern, and—like a seething viper within him—desire" (emphasis added). Moridin is certainly aware of the change in him - they may be counting on that to affect his judgment.

 

As far as chapter one goes, it actually shows that he's struggling with it. He can't simply dismiss it as a bad dream - he's aware that they are either trying to distract him, or that it may be a trap, but he's still thinking about it. A seed has been planted.

 

It may not be the best trap ever devised, but the idea that it is an attempt at a trap is not that far fetched.

[MarkDiLillo]

It's fantasy - you can rationalize anything. But I hold to my statement that it is too big of a logical stretch to assume all of that.

[Neophyte]

Fair enough.

[phoenixtrinity]

Quick question about this: " Rand is able to finally recognize Moridin in his dreamshard. Rand also felt that the pieces of himself fit together better in the dreamshard - perhaps being in a dreamshard reveals something more of one's true essence."

 

Being that the term "dreamshard" was just introduced in AMoL, I'm having a difficult time relating it to other parts of the books. Which scene and/or book is the above quote referencing in which Rand was in a dreamshard, and how do we know he was in a dreamshard and not in the standard Tel'aran'rhiod?

 

Thanks~

[Barid Bel Medar]

Quick question about this: " Rand is able to finally recognize Moridin in his dreamshard. Rand also felt that the pieces of himself fit together better in the dreamshard - perhaps being in a dreamshard reveals something more of one's true essence."

 

Being that the term "dreamshard" was just introduced in AMoL, I'm having a difficult time relating it to other parts of the books. Which scene and/or book is the above quote referencing in which Rand was in a dreamshard, and how do we know he was in a dreamshard and not in the standard Tel'aran'rhiod?

 

Thanks~

 

There have been several instances, the first being when Ishamael hunted the 3 boys in their "dreams" in EotW. That was a Dreamshard.

 

The specific scene that is being referenced is in tGS when Rand goes to sleep and has a little chat to Moridin.

[yoniy0]

If I could just pile on Neo's remarks, Rand has refused attempting to kill that same Forsaken while she was torturing him. Torturing, and he held saidin, but he never once weaved anything harmful, except to try take her captive. How would they know that he'd show her favoritism? Because he already has.

 

BTW I think it's a stretch to think Rand ended up in Moridin's dreamshard and Moridin was nowhere to be seen, unless it happened by design. That earlier instance told Moridin that their link progressed to the level that they can now bypass Rand's wards, setting the stage for this one.

[MarkDiLillo]

Quick question about this: " Rand is able to finally recognize Moridin in his dreamshard. Rand also felt that the pieces of himself fit together better in the dreamshard - perhaps being in a dreamshard reveals something more of one's true essence."

 

Being that the term "dreamshard" was just introduced in AMoL, I'm having a difficult time relating it to other parts of the books. Which scene and/or book is the above quote referencing in which Rand was in a dreamshard, and how do we know he was in a dreamshard and not in the standard Tel'aran'rhiod?

 

Thanks~

 

There have been several instances, the first being when Ishamael hunted the 3 boys in their "dreams" in EotW. That was a Dreamshard.

 

The specific scene that is being referenced is in tGS when Rand goes to sleep and has a little chat to Moridin.

 

This is an assumption really. We have no evidence that a dreamshard was ever seen before in the series. Indeed, I believe it is Brandons invention. If it wasn't then we likely would have heard about it before IMO.

[MarkDiLillo]

Quick question about this: " Rand is able to finally recognize Moridin in his dreamshard. Rand also felt that the pieces of himself fit together better in the dreamshard - perhaps being in a dreamshard reveals something more of one's true essence."

 

Being that the term "dreamshard" was just introduced in AMoL, I'm having a difficult time relating it to other parts of the books. Which scene and/or book is the above quote referencing in which Rand was in a dreamshard, and how do we know he was in a dreamshard and not in the standard Tel'aran'rhiod?

 

Thanks~

 

He was only able to recognize Moridin due to the location. He was in the same room/environment that Ishamael used in his dreams so it was kind of obvious who he was.

[phoenixtrinity]

Quick question about this: " Rand is able to finally recognize Moridin in his dreamshard. Rand also felt that the pieces of himself fit together better in the dreamshard - perhaps being in a dreamshard reveals something more of one's true essence."

 

Being that the term "dreamshard" was just introduced in AMoL, I'm having a difficult time relating it to other parts of the books. Which scene and/or book is the above quote referencing in which Rand was in a dreamshard, and how do we know he was in a dreamshard and not in the standard Tel'aran'rhiod?

 

Thanks~

 

He was only able to recognize Moridin due to the location. He was in the same room/environment that Ishamael used in his dreams so it was kind of obvious who he was.

 

This was my thinking on this, too. I wasn't sure if it was confirmed there were previous 'dreamshards' in the rest of the series, but it seemed more likely the other instances in TAR/dreams were just that - TAR and dreams, not dreamshards. Hence my confusion previously~

 

Thanks for answering that. -goes back to lurking-

[Sharaman]

It's fantasy - you can rationalize anything. But I hold to my statement that it is too big of a logical stretch to assume all of that.

Fairly easy and plausible answers to all the questions you raise

1) If he didn't recognise her, she could easily cue recognition by mentioning some intimate incident either between Meiryn/ LTT or Selene/ Rand or between both.

2) She appears as Cyndi because a) either she doesn't have that much energy to spare to put on Lanfear's appearance while busting out from Moridin's torture and into Rand's dream OR b) Moridin tells her/ forces her to appear as Cyndi because he wants Rand to hesitate about killing her in real-life when he sends her to ninja Rand as a culmination of the plot.

3) Moridin knows LTT well enough by now due to the balefire cross to be aware that deep down there's a certain amount of left-over lust and he's taking a free shot at using it. If Cyndi gets balefired in the confrontation, too bad and also quite likely if this is an environment controlled by Moridin, Rand will not be able to balefire Cyndi at all and will get an unpleasant surprise if he tries.

So, not really a stretch assuming that this is (with or without Cyndi's connivance) an attempt to trap Rand. (Edited typos)

[Neophyte]

Quick question about this: " Rand is able to finally recognize Moridin in his dreamshard. Rand also felt that the pieces of himself fit together better in the dreamshard - perhaps being in a dreamshard reveals something more of one's true essence."

 

Being that the term "dreamshard" was just introduced in AMoL, I'm having a difficult time relating it to other parts of the books. Which scene and/or book is the above quote referencing in which Rand was in a dreamshard, and how do we know he was in a dreamshard and not in the standard Tel'aran'rhiod?

 

Thanks~

 

The particular instance that I'm commenting on is in TGS ch. 15, A Place to Begin. The place doesn't quite act like regular Tel'aran'rhiod, which is why I assume it is one of Moridin's dreamshards. Moridin is surprised that Rand can get there - there would be no reason to be surprised if it was regular Tel'aran'rhiod. In addition, Rand's perceptions of himself seem affected in a way that we haven't seen in Tel'aran'rhiod before - more on that below

 

He was only able to recognize Moridin due to the location. He was in the same room/environment that Ishamael used in his dreams so it was kind of obvious who he was.

.

 

It may indeed be that he was only able to recognize Moridin due the to situation, but we certainly don't know that for certain. That place a strange effect on Rand's perceptions. To quote:

 

Oddly, Rand felt more stable - somehow - here in this place where all else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better.

 

To me, that puts a potentially new light on the sentence "Now, in this place, Rand finally knew [who Moridin was]."

 

Yes, he recognized it from the times he had been there previously. But in some ways, the dreamshard seems to be, in Moridin's words (from the same chapter), "more truthful than the waking world." The essence of things - Rand's self, as well as Moridin's identity - may be more apparent there.

 

That is, admittedly, speculative. But given Rand's recognition of Cyndane (which we know actually happened, and is described in a dreamshard-like setting) I don't think it is ridiculous speculation.

 

Of course, one may assume that Brandon was just writing crap when he made Rand recognize Cyndane. That is, obviously, it's own different conclusion.

[MarkDiLillo]

That last bit is the whole problem with analyzing the scene too much. =/

[Neophyte]

That last bit is the whole problem with analyzing the scene too much. =/

 

Well, in my opinion that is the problem with having a potentially unreliable author. If the author is known to be reliable, then we can look at what actually happened (Rand recognized Cyndane as Lanfear) and reasonably use that as the basis for drawing conclusions about the rules of the world in which the story takes place. The variable that can't be accounted for is authorial reliability because, unfortunately, Sanderson has given us some cause to doubt that.

 

Let me just state my intent to end that line of discussion here - there are other places where it is being debated with all the reasonableness of five hungry 13 year old girls whose cycles have synced up discussed at some length.

[yoniy0]

Neo, are you implying that synced cycles make for subpar arguments?

[Neophyte]

Neo, are you implying that synced cycles make for subpar arguments?

 

Oh no. They make for great arguments! Monumental, incendiary, continent-crushing arguments!

 

And if they played 18, I bet they'd be way, way over par.

[RandA lThor]

OK, my fresh ideas without reading a lot on other ideas. I think that Cyndane was being tortured because of

 

a) Attempting to betray the DO

b) Throwing Asmo under the bus

c) Trying to kill Rand

d) Failing miserably

e) Making Moridin get her

[XoMeltdownoX]

How about Cyndane was impersonating Sammael and sent the attack in Tear.

[Neophyte]

That would certainly be a new and unusual tactic for her.