Caemlyn (FULL PROLOGUE SPOILERS)

[Terez]

Rand never said he put a trap on the Caemlyn gate. He just said it was guarded. Later he used the word 'sealed' but we don't know what he meant by that.

I agree with that.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with it; that's what Rand said.

Ouch. Did'nt mean to step wrongly here. Just that I agree with your fact.

 

No worries; I just get bothered when facts are treated as subjective. You agreeing with my fact is an example of that, but even worse is all the people who try to argue around facts. It happens all the time, and both your agreement with the facts and others' disagreement with the fact stem from the same general place where facts are frighteningly subjective. (It bothers me even more in real life discussions.)

[dwn]

So... why Caemlyn? Sure, Andor is a major power, has significance to the Dragon (via birth, Elayne), and is a reasonably strategic choice for invasion. Yet is there something more to it? Given what we've seen of the Shadow's resources, would not a simultaneous invasion of Caemlyn, Cairhien, Tear, Illian, Tar Valon, and every other power centre within reach of a Waygate or Portal Stone do much more to sow dissent and despair among the alliance Rand and Egwene are starting to build?

 

Or has that actually happened and Caemlyn is the only one we've seen first hand?

 

-- dwn

[MarkDiLillo]

I definitely noticed the "dumbing down" effect in Sandersons writings, but couldnt really put it into words what bothered about the scene until it was brought up here. Definitely describes what the problem is in certain scenes. I dont recall if it happened or not in RJ's writing, but if it did it was far more subtle. Definitely jumps out of the page at you in the last two books.

[XXX]

Caemlyn's disaster could be laid on Egwene feet with her insistence that the rulers bring all their forces(No one seems to know for what as Rand never suggested that).

[methegrate]

There's been a whole lot of 'aes sedai' being made to look like fools and it didn't start with Sanderson. Most notably interactions between the vast majority of the Aes Sedai and the Aiel Wise Ones (after LoC) but to a lesser extent with the kin as well.

 

Ya, one of the few things that has bothered me throughout the entire series is that it seems as if the Aes Sedai in general are borderline retarded. Some of the major character Aes Sedai seem to have some wits about them (Moiraine, Siuan, Cadsuane) but the rest really do seem so stupid it is almost comical.

 

There's a great thread elsewhere in the forum about how and why the Aes Sedai generally act "borderline retarded," and it's definitely a good point. For all their big talk, Egwene and Elayne are some of the worst of them. Egwene's bring all the armies approach to Rand's proposal is an example of why I've never liked her character pretty much from day 1. She is always absolutely certain that she's right and very willing to use threats to get her way. Here, she never stops to consider that Rand might have a plan or why he would do this. Nor does she think through the fact that the seals are breaking anyway. The idea of meeting at his time and place to hear him out never even enters her mind, she just leaps to gathering an army to try and "convince him" that he's wrong. As a rule of thumb, when you show up with an army, you aren't trying to convince anyone of anything. Once again, she assumes she must be right and leaps right to force enforce it.

 

She won't even listen to Nynaeve on the issue. Instead, when Nynaeve mentions that Rand might have some good points (I forget the exact dialogue), Egwene just decides it's time to call Nynaeve back to the tower because she's spent too much time with Rand. I'll stop my Egwene/Elayne rant there, lest I veer too far off topic.

[methegrate]

Also, it's been a while since I read tGS. Can someone remind me why Verin didn't just tell Mat abou the impending attack? Or just give him instructions not to open the letter for three days, mail the letter to Elayne, take out an ad on Craigslist-Caemlyn, anything other than hope Mat would open the letter but give him a strong incentive not to?

[flinn]

Also, it's been a while since I read tGS. Can someone remind me why Verin didn't just tell Mat abou the impending attack? Or just give him instructions not to open the letter for three days, mail the letter to Elayne, take out an ad on Craigslist-Caemlyn, anything other than hope Mat would open the letter but give him a strong incentive not to?

Yeah that was abit contrived to me.

[jburkal'hard]

Also, it's been a while since I read tGS. Can someone remind me why Verin didn't just tell Mat abou the impending attack? Or just give him instructions not to open the letter for three days, mail the letter to Elayne, take out an ad on Craigslist-Caemlyn, anything other than hope Mat would open the letter but give him a strong incentive not to?

 

I think if Mat learned about the planned attack he would most certainly tell Elayne and she would prepare the Caemlyn for attack. It would of been impossible to withhold the reason why she was mobilizing forces to defend the city from Darkfriends within the city/her inner circle. Verin probably figured whoever was coordinating the attack would pick a new city behind the the armies of Light. Perhaps Tear or Lugard. At least that's how I see it.

[Neophyte]

So... why Caemlyn? Sure, Andor is a major power, has significance to the Dragon (via birth, Elayne), and is a reasonably strategic choice for invasion. Yet is there something more to it? Given what we've seen of the Shadow's resources, would not a simultaneous invasion of Caemlyn, Cairhien, Tear, Illian, Tar Valon, and every other power centre within reach of a Waygate or Portal Stone do much more to sow dissent and despair among the alliance Rand and Egwene are starting to build?

 

Or has that actually happened and Caemlyn is the only one we've seen first hand?

 

-- dwn

 

Um, Maradon? Tarwin's Gap? The Trollocs that attacked Tylee Khirgan's Seanchan? Lord Algarin's manor? That's literally one each in the four quadrants of Randland. And I feel comfortable saying that there is far, far more to come.

[Luckers]

Also, it's been a while since I read tGS. Can someone remind me why Verin didn't just tell Mat abou the impending attack? Or just give him instructions not to open the letter for three days, mail the letter to Elayne, take out an ad on Craigslist-Caemlyn, anything other than hope Mat would open the letter but give him a strong incentive not to?

Yeah that was abit contrived to me.

 

That felt contrived to me as well. Brandon has a problem with spilling his hand too early and thus either robbing the reveals of the weight when they come--for instance the Mesaana remains within the White Tower post Great Purge reveal--or, as more with this specific incident, making the characters seem foolish for not having realised and dealt with it--Egwene with the Silence of the Black Tower, or the Borderland invasion, for example. Jordan had a few of these himself, mind you, for instance Elaida with the Black Ajah, but meh.

 

In any case the reason I think this felt so contrived is the level of detail Verin was able to go into in her letter for a woman bound as she was. I personally think Brandon was just trying to generate a mystery for the fans in creating those letters and that it was never meant for there to be early warning, but meh--combined between that and the warning from the captured Blacks the fall of Caemlyn is a major... faux pas.

[methegrate]

I will admit, the Fall of Caemlyn did actually seem in character for Elayne. I had some other issues, but the general way it happened worked for me, it seemed to match her weaknesses. Throughout the series Elayne's character has habitually rushed into things without properly thinking them through. It's gotten her into trouble on many occasions (as was pointed out earlier in the thread), from the Stone of Tear in Dragon Reborn to the interrogation in ToM. This incident, pulling all of her troops out to take Cairhein and then confront Rand without adequately planning for contingencies, is exactly something that she'd do. So far she's been lucky enough to have backup who has had her bacon pulled from the fire every time, starting with Mat and more recently Birgette. Sooner or later her luck had to run out though, and this time help wasn't close enough at hand. After all, when you're out of dumb luck, all you're left with is the dumb.

 

The fact that she hasn't grown or developed out of this flaw makes me dislike her as a character; she shares the same adolescent, absolute certainty in her own infallibility that helps to define Egwene. It would have made an excellent flaw for the girls to grow out of as they had to leave childish things behind and grow up, but they never seemed to. That said, I think it's definitely believable that her character would leave Caemlyn that poorly defended.

[Suttree]

Here, she never stops to consider that Rand might have a plan or why he would do this. Nor does she think through the fact that the seals are breaking anyway. The idea of meeting at his time and place to hear him out never even enters her mind, she just leaps to gathering an army to try and "convince him" that he's wrong. As a rule of thumb, when you show up with an army, you aren't trying to convince anyone of anything. Once again, she assumes she must be right and leaps right to force enforce it.

 

Ermm you do realize Rand purposely antagonized her to get this reaction correct? In addition she tried to hear him out and he refused, probably because as we know he doesn't have a plan past breaking the seals. He is hoping Min figures out the answers for him. She tried to hear him out and talk about it but he refused and pushed it off...

 

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

Lastly what makes you think if Min finds the answers that she won't listen to a rational plan and fall in line. If he explains his reasoning and what needs to happen and she still opposes him then yes we have a problem. As of now all she has done is been played by one of the greatest politicians from the AoL.

 

She won't even listen to Nynaeve on the issue. Instead, when Nynaeve mentions that Rand might have some good points (I forget the exact dialogue), Egwene just decides it's time to call Nynaeve back to the tower because she's spent too much time with Rand. I'll stop my Egwene/Elayne rant there, lest I veer too far off topic.

 

Actually even though we as readers know it isn't correct Nyn concedes Eggy may be right.

 

ToM

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

[Edorion]

Here, she never stops to consider that Rand might have a plan or why he would do this. Nor does she think through the fact that the seals are breaking anyway. The idea of meeting at his time and place to hear him out never even enters her mind, she just leaps to gathering an army to try and "convince him" that he's wrong. As a rule of thumb, when you show up with an army, you aren't trying to convince anyone of anything. Once again, she assumes she must be right and leaps right to force enforce it.

 

Ermm you do realize Rand purposely antagonized her to get this reaction correct? In addition she tried to hear him out and he refused, probably because as we know he doesn't have a plan past breaking the seals. He is hoping Min figures out the answers for him. She tried to hear him out and talk about it but he refused and pushed it off...

 

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

Lastly what makes you think if Min finds the answers that she won't listen to a rational plan and fall in line. If he explains his reasoning and what needs to happen and she still opposes him then yes we have a problem. As of now all she has done is been played by one of the greatest politicians from the AoL.

 

She won't even listen to Nynaeve on the issue. Instead, when Nynaeve mentions that Rand might have some good points (I forget the exact dialogue), Egwene just decides it's time to call Nynaeve back to the tower because she's spent too much time with Rand. I'll stop my Egwene/Elayne rant there, lest I veer too far off topic.

 

Actually even though we as readers know it isn't correct Nyn concedes Eggy may be right.

 

ToM

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

 

Goldfish swimming amongst the sharks here, and you certainly have a point, but I thought Nynaeve pretty firmly reasserted her independence of thought when she walks out of her shawl test proclaiming right in front of the Amyrlin that she'll put her friends/loved ones ahead of the tower and that she'll be @ Shayol Ghul W/Rand whether they like it or not.

[Damer Sedai]

Here, she never stops to consider that Rand might have a plan or why he would do this. Nor does she think through the fact that the seals are breaking anyway. The idea of meeting at his time and place to hear him out never even enters her mind, she just leaps to gathering an army to try and "convince him" that he's wrong. As a rule of thumb, when you show up with an army, you aren't trying to convince anyone of anything. Once again, she assumes she must be right and leaps right to force enforce it.

 

Ermm you do realize Rand purposely antagonized her to get this reaction correct? In addition she tried to hear him out and he refused, probably because as we know he doesn't have a plan past breaking the seals. He is hoping Min figures out the answers for him. She tried to hear him out and talk about it but he refused and pushed it off...

 

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

Lastly what makes you think if Min finds the answers that she won't listen to a rational plan and fall in line. If he explains his reasoning and what needs to happen and she still opposes him then yes we have a problem. As of now all she has done is been played by one of the greatest politicians from the AoL.

 

She won't even listen to Nynaeve on the issue. Instead, when Nynaeve mentions that Rand might have some good points (I forget the exact dialogue), Egwene just decides it's time to call Nynaeve back to the tower because she's spent too much time with Rand. I'll stop my Egwene/Elayne rant there, lest I veer too far off topic.

 

Actually even though we as readers know it isn't correct Nyn concedes Eggy may be right.

 

ToM

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

 

Its actually a little more than that, Egwene immediately after notes that Nynaeve feels pretty equivocal about her opposition. This is their discussion in the dreamworld, on page 210. Before she leaves, Nynaeve asks Rand about his plan to break the seals on page 222.

 

Nynaeve frowned "But Rand, if you let him free, wouldn't that make it worse?"

 

"Perhaps for a short burst" Rand replied "Opening the Bore will not free him immediately, although it will give him strength, it must be done regardless. Think of our task as climing a tall stone wall. Unfortunately, we are delaying, running laps before attempting the climb. Each step tires us for the climb to come. We must face him while still strong. That is why I must break the seals."

Do you Nynaeve?" He asked, sounding oddly relieved "Do you really?"

"I do"

"Then try and convince Egwene for me. She will stop me if she can."

TOM Ch 15.

 

Thats the last word on the subject of Nynaeve's position I can find. Nynaeve and Min (and perhaps Cadsuane, although its hard to tell with her) will probably be the bridge.

Its besides the point anyway.

 

We don't know why the Field od Merrilor gathering is important... but it sure will be nice to have the while family back together. Lets just hope their armies dont try and kill each other.

[Suttree]

Here, she never stops to consider that Rand might have a plan or why he would do this. Nor does she think through the fact that the seals are breaking anyway. The idea of meeting at his time and place to hear him out never even enters her mind, she just leaps to gathering an army to try and "convince him" that he's wrong. As a rule of thumb, when you show up with an army, you aren't trying to convince anyone of anything. Once again, she assumes she must be right and leaps right to force enforce it.

 

Ermm you do realize Rand purposely antagonized her to get this reaction correct? In addition she tried to hear him out and he refused, probably because as we know he doesn't have a plan past breaking the seals. He is hoping Min figures out the answers for him. She tried to hear him out and talk about it but he refused and pushed it off...

 

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

Lastly what makes you think if Min finds the answers that she won't listen to a rational plan and fall in line. If he explains his reasoning and what needs to happen and she still opposes him then yes we have a problem. As of now all she has done is been played by one of the greatest politicians from the AoL.

 

She won't even listen to Nynaeve on the issue. Instead, when Nynaeve mentions that Rand might have some good points (I forget the exact dialogue), Egwene just decides it's time to call Nynaeve back to the tower because she's spent too much time with Rand. I'll stop my Egwene/Elayne rant there, lest I veer too far off topic.

 

Actually even though we as readers know it isn't correct Nyn concedes Eggy may be right.

 

ToM

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

 

Its actually a little more than that, Egwene immediately after notes that Nynaeve feels pretty equivocal about her opposition. This is their discussion in the dreamworld, on page 210. Before she leaves, Nynaeve asks Rand about his plan to break the seals on page 222.

 

Nynaeve frowned "But Rand, if you let him free, wouldn't that make it worse?"

 

"Perhaps for a short burst" Rand replied "Opening the Bore will not free him immediately, although it will give him strength, it must be done regardless. Think of our task as climing a tall stone wall. Unfortunately, we are delaying, running laps before attempting the climb. Each step tires us for the climb to come. We must face him while still strong. That is why I must break the seals."

Do you Nynaeve?" He asked, sounding oddly relieved "Do you really?"

"I do"

"Then try and convince Egwene for me. She will stop me if she can."

TOM Ch 15.

 

Thats the last word on the subject of Nynaeve's position I can find. Nynaeve and Min (and perhaps Cadsuane, although its hard to tell with her) will probably be the bridge.

Its besides the point anyway.

 

We don't know why the Field od Merrilor gathering is important... but it sure will be nice to have the while family back together. Lets just hope their armies dont try and kill each other.

 

Oh I agree that Nyn will take his side. Just pointing out there was still a question and it wasn't like the other poster pointed out that Egwene "wouldn't even listen to Nynaeve". In fact no one has tried to lay out a rational course of action yet.

[methegrate]

"Ermm you do realize Rand purposely antagonized her to get this reaction correct? In addition she tried to hear him out and he refused, probably because as we know he doesn't have a plan past breaking the seals. He is hoping Min figures out the answers for him. She tried to hear him out and talk about it but he refused and pushed it off..." (Sorry for the inelegant copy/paste, I haven't quite got the hang of the quote system.)

 

That does speak well of Rand, but it doesn't move my needle on Egwene. In my opinion, at least, it doesn't speak well of her that she can be antagonized like this, or that she would react by immediately starting to gather a large, threatening force. She doesn't know that he doesn't have a plan, she just knows that he's waiting to reveal it on the Fields of Merrilor. I'd be moved if she had attempted to send him an envoy, or had gathered leaders on the field to try and sway his opinion if he didn't convince her, but that's not her approach. Instead she attempts to gather a massive fighting force. It does play into Rand's hands, and good for him to have her figured out, but it doesn't speak well of her that he knows she'll respond to an idea she dislikes by summoning all the force she can muster.

[Suttree]

It does play into Rand's hands, and good for him to have her figured out, but it doesn't speak well of her that he knows she'll respond to an idea she dislikes by summoning all the force she can muster.

 

It's not just an idea she dislikes. It's one that can threaten the entire world and is what every single person in Randland believes to be true except possibly 5 or 6 people who have been told why it needs to happen and are working towards what needs to be done. Again you can't fault her for questioning him at this point. The WT has been the main force for the light for 3,000 years of course she would question something like this. Also unless you think she will launch and all out attack and not listen to him once Min finds an answer not sure what the big deal is? I will quickly condemn her if he lays out his course in a rational manner and she refuses to listen. If however she hears him out and then goes along all she did was handle the work he couldn't be bothered to do by gathering the forces which is what he wanted. As he says...

 

ToM

I've poured hot oil into the White Tower, and it will be boiling soon. Time. We don't have time! I will get help to Lan, I vow it to you, but right now I must prepare to face Egwene."

 

Considering that he was insane until shortly before the meeting, she has been hearing about his missteps(slaughtering his own men in the Damona Campaign, Natrin's Barrow, leaving a city to starve when he couldnt use them as "tools") and how much he has changed from Nyn she really couldn't handle it any other way. You can't think of it from a readers perspective, you need to view it from what she knows.

[Dollhouse]

Loved the Isam POV. Speculation on whom it was that came to him? She was described as slim and pretty. Cyndane is usually described as buxom, and isn't likely to be out wandering around anyway.

Buxom yes, but she has also been described as pretty (in the cute sense) and often hinted to be very slim and look like "just a slip of a girl".

But I wonder about that. Slayer is supposed to have been ordered to kill Rand specifically and we have seen Cyndane being really angry with Lews in her pov and thinking of killing him... But what about the epilogue of the previous book? IN it we see what we believe to be Cyndane begging Lews to save her. Now I'm not saying that this isn't a trap or anything... but the whole thing (being one of the main major foreshadowings for the last book) seems kind of odd that we would get such a definite hint at it really being a trap at the BEGINING of the last book. Wouldn't it be better to let the readers still be unsure of this until it happens? I mean since it was left open in the other book?

 

Actually David can correct me if I'm wrong but he was talking about dumbing down characters in advancing the plot such as this decision by Elayne. That is a wholely seperate issue from Brandon's penchant for dumbing down one character when two are in conflict often playing to fan gratification based on who is more popular. We see this with Egwene and the AS(fans get to see the AS look like fools), then does the same with Egwene and Rand(fans get to see their hero play Eggy) and on to Tam and Cads(that dumb bully gets turned into a caricature and shown up). It is lazy writing and allows fan gratifcation to carry the narrative. This technique has spiked under Sanderson and even those who don't agree with much of the critique talk about how much it stands out.

Yes!! There's so many bad things I could say about Sanderson's writing but I feel you said it better than I ever could. I swear... if he has Nynaeve say "excellent" one more time I'm seriously going to cry.

[Terez]

(Sorry for the inelegant copy/paste, I haven't quite got the hang of the quote system.)

 

Just use the quote button on the post you're responding to, and it will quote the post automatically for you. Then you can delete anything between the quote tags that you don't want to address. (I wish more people would learn how to do the latter.)

 

The multiquote button is for when you want to quote multiple posts. So, if you're reading and you see a post you want to quote, use multiquote and instead of giving you a response page immediately it will just keep track of that post until you're done reading and you're ready to reply. You can add more posts to the list while you're reading, and it will quote all of them for you.

[csarmi]

Ya I agree. The whole "lets bring all our armies into one spot" thing was poorly planned. There is no reason for those armies to be there and furthermore...none are camped in any type of formation ready to attack so they clearly are not even considering attacking or defending.

 

IMO this was either Brandon's plot device entirely or he was following RJs notes and the notes were a little vague to the details and may have been changed enough to make better sense by the time RJ got to that scene. Overall, I dont find it to be a big issue at all though. It's one of those things that are a little weird but given that this whole thing is a fantasy story in the first place...weird is normal.

 

It's completely stupid. If the Forsaken had one more Dreamspike, they could just Travel to the spot, put down the spike nad guard it in the dream. Light armies don't move nowhere.

[csarmi]

I think the main reason this instance bugs so many people is that a simple change in the writing would fix the problem: "She left a dozen women... but--the attack--assassins killed all but two of them before they were stopped..."

 

With poisoned weapons it's certainly plausible that a few assassins could take down several of the Kin who aren't accustomed to extra vigilance against such threats. An even better option would have been to explicitly state the assassins were Grey Men.

 

-- dwn

 

Except they ARE accustomed to that (remember, most of them have been tzravelling all their life and know how to handle threats alone).

[dwn]

I think the main reason this instance bugs so many people is that a simple change in the writing would fix the problem: "She left a dozen women... but--the attack--assassins killed all but two of them before they were stopped..."

 

With poisoned weapons it's certainly plausible that a few assassins could take down several of the Kin who aren't accustomed to extra vigilance against such threats. An even better option would have been to explicitly state the assassins were Grey Men.

 

-- dwn

 

Except they ARE accustomed to that (remember, most of them have been tzravelling all their life and know how to handle threats alone).

 

We're talking about assassins (with or without supernatural aid), not street thugs.

 

-- dwn

[boy]

Also, it's been a while since I read tGS. Can someone remind me why Verin didn't just tell Mat abou the impending attack? Or just give him instructions not to open the letter for three days, mail the letter to Elayne, take out an ad on Craigslist-Caemlyn, anything other than hope Mat would open the letter but give him a strong incentive not to?

 

Black Ajah oaths; she has to make sure he doesn't read the letter until she's dead. The promise about doing it if he opens the letter is to prevent him from opening it earlier.

[XXX]

I think the main reason this instance bugs so many people is that a simple change in the writing would fix the problem: "She left a dozen women... but--the attack--assassins killed all but two of them before they were stopped..."

 

With poisoned weapons it's certainly plausible that a few assassins could take down several of the Kin who aren't accustomed to extra vigilance against such threats. An even better option would have been to explicitly state the assassins were Grey Men.

 

-- dwn

 

Except they ARE accustomed to that (remember, most of them have been tzravelling all their life and know how to handle threats alone).

 

They spent their lives hiding from the WT,not guarding against assassins.There is a difference.

 

I hope they fix that when the book comes out. It really does look stupid that only 4 kin were left behind,Elayne comes out looking even more moronic if that can be possible.

[Sharaman]

Also, it's been a while since I read tGS. Can someone remind me why Verin didn't just tell Mat abou the impending attack? Or just give him instructions not to open the letter for three days, mail the letter to Elayne, take out an ad on Craigslist-Caemlyn, anything other than hope Mat would open the letter but give him a strong incentive not to?

 

Black Ajah oaths; she has to make sure he doesn't read the letter until she's dead. The promise about doing it if he opens the letter is to prevent him from opening it earlier.

 

Verin said

1) Don't open the letter for x days 2) Alternatively if you do open the letter promise to do as it tells you.

She could as well have said

1) Don't open the letter for x days

2) Alternatively if you do open the letter consider acting upon the information given there.

 

How would this second set of instructions break her Black Ajah oaths if the first set, which she actually gave, didn't ?