CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[MasterAblar]

RJ said it was coincidence that Moridin got a nice body, because the Dark One doesn't care if you get a nice body or not. But it was implied with Aran'gar that He had a sense of humor.

 

Yeah it would be rather suprising if an incorpereal deity of death cared much for looks. I can totally see the Forsaken getting picky too:

 

 

Dark One: COME ON LANFEAR, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS ONE?

 

Lanfear: Did you see those wrinkles? And there is no way I am going around with those clown feet!

 

Dark One: DON'T YOU THINK YOU'RE BEING A LITTLE...

 

Ishamael: Hey! What's with the ears! I don't want my ears sticking out like that! And did I really have to be balding? You could have put some effort into this Shaitan!

 

Dark One: (SIGH)

[Neophyte]

"Yes. You have failed in the past." Her voice was ice. He felt a chill. This one was hard. Hard as Moridin.

 

That sounds more like Cyndane than Graendal to me.

 

 

Why? Isam never failed Cyndane. She wouldn't be that personally upset about them.

 

As to this:

 

 

One thing about Hessalam: weren't we told before that the selection of a new body had nothing to do with punishment? Weren't we told that finding new bodies was hard, and so the DO just stuffed you into what could be found?

 

The Dark One might not be too worried about it, but Moridin could be. I could imagine the following scene.

 

 

DO: GRAENDAL MUST BE PUNISHED FOR HER FAILURES.

 

Moridin: Well, she's always admired beauty. We could stuff her into this ugly body I have in stock.

 

DO: SOUNDS GOOD. WE SHOULD RENAME HER TOO!

 

Moridin: How about Hessalam? It means "without forgiveness."

 

DO: I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS, WORM. AND IT'S CLOSE TO HEFFALUMP! SOME GENIUS ON THE BOARDS WILL PROBABLY START CALLING HER "GRAEFFALUMP!" THAT'LL SHOW HER! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

Moridin: .... yeah, ok ....

 

 

 

Yeah, so I had a little fun with that, true, but the point that RJ made about the Dark One's punishments is that they aren't punitive, they're functional. Giving Graendal that body makes the point that she is utterly under the Dark One's thumb, and she better stop screwing up.

 

 

Finally ...

 

Also... as someone pointed out, the hints of Moridin's character changing are interesting. Rand is clearly "insulated" from external psychological forces now. But what of Moridin? He has none of that, presumably. Could be have been in the Town to have himself turned. How better to counteract the doubts and niceness that are coming from Rand than to use the method proven to suppress those? Moridin may be geting the Dark equivalent of the "liquid light" Rand has protecting his brain. Or maybe not.

 

I like the idea that there might be feedback to Moridin from the "liquid light" around Rand's mind. I'm not going so far as to say he had to be re-turned with the 13X13 method, but there might be something going on there.

 

Although, counter to that idea, Moridin has seemed much more ... contemplative ... since Rand encountered him (presumably in one of his dreamshards) back in TGS ch 15 and they had that little fireside chat.

[MasterAblar]

Why? Isam never failed Cyndane. She wouldn't be that personally upset about them.

 

Well I don't have the prologue so I can't really judge how upset the Forsaken sounded but the quote made me think of Cyndane simply because she is always described as cold and icy:

 

"Staring about her coldly"

 

"Cyndane's face remained cold and smooth"

 

"A beautiful doll carved from ice"

 

"And yet her tone remained frost"

 

"A chilly smile barely curved Cyndane's full lips"

 

"The girls voice was calm and cold and arrogant"

 

"Her big blue eyes were glacial"

 

To me the quote sounds like the Forsaken is uncaring, unfeeling, rather than upset.

[Terez]

For Lanfear, icy=angry. That's just how she deals with her anger. (Not that she doesn't have fits of rage from time to time; I mean when she's controlling it.) Without the emotion, it's just poise.

[Aqua Weaver]

And did anyone else notice the yellow dress? We've never seen her in that color, I think. I could well be wrong, but I have a feeling she's masquerading as a Yellow sister. I think she's gunnig for Nynaeve (as the woman who can counter her chief ability: Compulsion), as we saw hints of in ToM, and I think she may have placed herself in the Aes Sedai camp in Merrilor.

 

 

I really like that point. Graeffalump (I adore that name LOL), also mentioned that she was very busy and had things to be about which could reinforce the idea that she is indeed masquerading as an Aes Sedai (Mesaana's favourite excuse for skipping tea parties and the cleansing). But here's an interesting idea, what if she is maquerading as Nynaeve? After all, Nynaeve comes very close to Graendal in OP strength and since travelling now seems to be general knowledge it would be more difficult to ascertain who is where and doing what at any given time.

 

I also wanted to touch on the issue of Moghedien's reaction to Graendal's debut as Graeffalump. Moghedien seems to have fallen into the same trap as countless others in that she takes Graendal at face value - attributing her reputation to her extrinsic characteristics and not the intrinsic ones. Lews Therin was not afraid of Graendal becasue she was gorgeous and liked taking other gorgeous people as her "pets", but rather becasue she was manipulative, cunning and possessed unparalled skill in compulsion and reading people. During the War of Power she may not have led armies but thanks to her machinations it sounds like in most cases she pretty much put out the welcome mat for the armies of the Shadow (hint, hint Arad Doman - ripe for the taking hint, hint, people not happy with the Dragon hint, hint) . I think Moridin/DO may have put her in the body they did becaue they knew that it would not break her but rather motivate her further with the promise of a better body. When she shows up at the meeting we do not see a broken woman, but rather a woman who was so unchanged internally that Moghedien picked up on it almost instantly.

 

Aqua

[Neophyte]

Why? Isam never failed Cyndane. She wouldn't be that personally upset about them.

 

Well I don't have the prologue so I can't really judge how upset the Forsaken sounded but the quote made me think of Cyndane simply because she is always described as cold and icy:

 

"Staring about her coldly"

 

"Cyndane's face remained cold and smooth"

 

"A beautiful doll carved from ice"

 

"And yet her tone remained frost"

 

"A chilly smile barely curved Cyndane's full lips"

 

"The girls voice was calm and cold and arrogant"

 

"Her big blue eyes were glacial"

 

To me the quote sounds like the Forsaken is uncaring, unfeeling, rather than upset.

 

OK, I can see that, but in the prologue, the Chosen in question is pretty clearly upset, rather than uncaring or unfeeling. Immediately before the bit about her voice being "ice," she tells Isam:

 

"I want him gutted like and animal, his bowels spilled onto the ground, his blood a milkpan for ravens, his bones left to bleach, then gray, then crack in the heat of the sun."

 

That sounds pretty upset to me.

[MasterAblar]

OK, I can see that, but in the prologue, the Chosen in question is pretty clearly upset, rather than uncaring or unfeeling. Immediately before the bit about her voice being "ice," she tells Isam:

 

"I want him gutted like and animal, his bowels spilled onto the ground, his blood a milkpan for ravens, his bones left to bleach, then gray, then crack in the heat of the sun."

 

That sounds pretty upset to me.

 

Nonsense, she's just a tad stressed is all. She has a tough job and Moridins makes her work too hard.

 

Yeah, that does sound pretty... angry. Although like Terez said, ice + anger = Lanfear. On the other hand when Graendal is angry she's always quite flamboyant.

[fionwe1987]

And did anyone else notice the yellow dress? We've never seen her in that color, I think. I could well be wrong, but I have a feeling she's masquerading as a Yellow sister. I think she's gunnig for Nynaeve (as the woman who can counter her chief ability: Compulsion), as we saw hints of in ToM, and I think she may have placed herself in the Aes Sedai camp in Merrilor.

 

 

I really like that point. Graeffalump (I adore that name LOL), also mentioned that she was very busy and had things to be about which could reinforce the idea that she is indeed masquerading as an Aes Sedai (Mesaana's favourite excuse for skipping tea parties and the cleansing). But here's an interesting idea, what if she is maquerading as Nynaeve? After all, Nynaeve comes very close to Graendal in OP strength and since travelling now seems to be general knowledge it would be more difficult to ascertain who is where and doing what at any given time.

 

I also wanted to touch on the issue of Moghedien's reaction to Graendal's debut as Graeffalump. Moghedien seem to have fallen into the same trap as countless others in that she takes Graendal at face value - attributing her reputation to her extrinsic characteristics. Lews Therin was not afraid of Graendal becasue she was gorgeous and liked taking other gorgeous people as her "pets" but rather becasue she was manipulative, cunning and possessed unparalled skill in compulsion and reading people. During the War of Power she may not have led armies but thanks to her machinations it sounds like in most cases she pretty much put out the welcome mat for the armies of the Shadow (hint, hint Arad Doman - ripe for the taking hint, hint, people not happy with the Dragon hint, hint) . I think Moridin/DO may have put her in the body they did becaue they knew that it would not break her but rather motivate her further with the promise of a better body. When she shows up at the meeting we do not see a broken woman, but rather a woman who was so unchanged internally that Moghedien picked up on it almost instantly.

 

Aqua

That's an interesting point. Based on what Moghedien said upon sensing Hessalam's strength, it seems to me that Nynaeve is in fact exactly as strong as Graendal. Though if Graendal is playing Nynaeve, its going to be a very dangerous game. Not sure I can see much use for it outside of the Tower, either. With Rand, sure, but I doubt she wants to go that close to him in such an easily revealed disguise.

[MasterAblar]

And did anyone else notice the yellow dress? We've never seen her in that color, I think. I could well be wrong, but I have a feeling she's masquerading as a Yellow sister. I think she's gunnig for Nynaeve (as the woman who can counter her chief ability: Compulsion), as we saw hints of in ToM, and I think she may have placed herself in the Aes Sedai camp in Merrilor.

 

 

I really like that point. Graeffalump (I adore that name LOL), also mentioned that she was very busy and had things to be about which could reinforce the idea that she is indeed masquerading as an Aes Sedai (Mesaana's favourite excuse for skipping tea parties and the cleansing). But here's an interesting idea, what if she is maquerading as Nynaeve? After all, Nynaeve comes very close to Graendal in OP strength and since travelling now seems to be general knowledge it would be more difficult to ascertain who is where and doing what at any given time.

 

I also wanted to touch on the issue of Moghedien's reaction to Graendal's debut as Graeffalump. Moghedien seem to have fallen into the same trap as countless others in that she takes Graendal at face value - attributing her reputation to her extrinsic characteristics. Lews Therin was not afraid of Graendal becasue she was gorgeous and liked taking other gorgeous people as her "pets" but rather becasue she was manipulative, cunning and possessed unparalled skill in compulsion and reading people. During the War of Power she may not have led armies but thanks to her machinations it sounds like in most cases she pretty much put out the welcome mat for the armies of the Shadow (hint, hint Arad Doman - ripe for the taking hint, hint, people not happy with the Dragon hint, hint) . I think Moridin/DO may have put her in the body they did becaue they knew that it would not break her but rather motivate her further with the promise of a better body. When she shows up at the meeting we do not see a broken woman, but rather a woman who was so unchanged internally that Moghedien picked up on it almost instantly.

 

Aqua

That's an interesting point. Based on what Moghedien said upon sensing Hessalam's strength, it seems to me that Nynaeve is in fact exactly as strong as Graendal. Though if Graendal is playing Nynaeve, its going to be a very dangerous game. Not sure I can see much use for it outside of the Tower, either. With Rand, sure, but I doubt she wants to go that close to him in such an easily revealed disguise.

 

What did Moghedien say about Hessalam's strength?

[Taryntula]

The only thing that makes me doubt that the mysterious Forsaken speaking with Isam is Lanfear/Cyndane is what someone else said...she wants Lews Therin to die at her own hands. Either that is not her in this scene, or it is a scheme to draw LTT/Rand to her so she can finish the job. Otherwise, all the characteristics scream Lanfear, no questions asked.

[Neophyte]

What did Moghedien say about Hessalam's strength?

 

When she first sees the Graeffalump (before she realizes that it is Graendal transmogrified), this is from her PoV:

 

Granted, Moghedien thought, sitting, she is powerful. How had Moghedien missed noticing one with this talent among the Aes Sedai? Her sources had picked out that wretched lightskirt Nynaeve almost immediately, yet they'd missed this hag?

[fionwe1987]

What did Moghedien say about Hessalam's strength?

She says the woman was strong. She assumes she's an AS, and is surprised she was missed by her agents when "that lightskirt" Nynaeve was reported to her right away.

[b3arz3rg3r]

So now that I've finally read the prologue a couple of disjointed thoughts.

 

@Suttree

Leilwin's POV isn't as bad as I thought. Though her becoming the da'covale of Egwene still doesn't seem a rational decision from my point of view

 

Nakomi = remnant of a Jenn seems confirmed to me now. She even has an ancient Aiel name.

 

Just who is Androl? Supposedly a Taraboner, but he seems to have come around almost as much as Jain Farstrider, so he may only have affected the mannerisms of one. I once toyed with the idea that he may have been Andric the former king of Tarabon, because he is only supposedly dead, but not confirmed. But that idea now really has the final nail in the coffin because of those links to Murandy.

So we have a natural leader, who has travelled around the world for many years, taking care to hide his identity and who was the loser in a high stakes game of Daes Daemar and who participated in that rebellion in Murandy.

[Zewe]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet/is blatantly obvious/whatever, but...

 

Turned redveils - are they, possibly, Aiel men who learned they could channel, went off to "slay Sightblinder" and all that, and have been systematically captured and Turned 13x13-style for ages now?

[Neophyte]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet/is blatantly obvious/whatever, but...

 

Turned redveils - are they, possibly, Aiel men who learned they could channel, went off to "slay Sightblinder" and all that, and have been systematically captured and Turned 13x13-style for ages now?

 

That seems to be the most prevalent theory.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet/is blatantly obvious/whatever, but...

 

Turned redveils - are they, possibly, Aiel men who learned they could channel, went off to "slay Sightblinder" and all that, and have been systematically captured and Turned 13x13-style for ages now?

 

And those turned have undergone a breeding program to create dreadlords. Could be easily several hundred men and women who can channel.

[roocifer]

I am confused, I thought Isam was always Isam/Slayer in TaR and was always Luc in the real world, in both appearance and which personality is in control. Can anyone explain this to me?

[Terez]

Coincidence. He can be whichever, wherever. But he can only change as he steps in/out of Tel'aran'rhiod; that is the mechanism for the change. (But he doesn't have to change, so he can be whichever, wherever.)

[b3arz3rg3r]

I am confused, I thought Isam was always Isam/Slayer in TaR and was always Luc in the real world, in both appearance and which personality is in control. Can anyone explain this to me?

 

That was what I believed as well, but I guess we just believed wrong. There is a special Slayer thread, however.

[arianrose]

Have we seen anything similar to the phrase "By grace and banners fallen?" It just seems very awkward to me. In the text, if I recall*, Talmanes says this in response to his realization that the LB is starting.

 

It's an interesting sentiment. I would think, looking at the phrase itself, that it would be more properly applied to the end of a war, ie "by the grace of the Creator and the banners of the men who fell, we have prevailed over the Dark One." Declaring the start of the last battle of a very long war to be because of grace ("by") is counter-intuitive. Except, I suppose, if you are a very weary commander, and you just want it to be over with. That's not the feel I got from Talmanes, though, even though he is tired, a commander, etc. It seemed more like someone repeating a cultural phrase they'd heard somewhere, without truly thinking through what it implies.

 

It's like someone who doesn't have much knowledge of the American South using "bless his heart."

 

*And I may not recall. I'm supposed to be working, not lurking on message boards.

[MasterAblar]

When she first sees the Graeffalump (before she realizes that it is Graendal transmogrified), this is from her PoV:

 

Granted, Moghedien thought, sitting, she is powerful. How had Moghedien missed noticing one with this talent among the Aes Sedai? Her sources had picked out that wretched lightskirt Nynaeve almost immediately, yet they'd missed this hag?

 

Thanks.

 

She sayd the woman was strong. She assumes she's an AS, and is surprised she was missed by her agents when "that lightskirt" Nynaeve was reported to her right away.

 

Well, I think that just says that Graendal is exceptionally strong, not necessarily the same strength as Nyneave. Regardless they're probably quite close in strength. Nyneave is supposed to be the same strength as Semirhage I believe. Graendaly is either the same strength or slight stronger.

[Neophyte]

When she first sees the Graeffalump (before she realizes that it is Graendal transmogrified), this is from her PoV:

 

Granted, Moghedien thought, sitting, she is powerful. How had Moghedien missed noticing one with this talent among the Aes Sedai? Her sources had picked out that wretched lightskirt Nynaeve almost immediately, yet they'd missed this hag?

 

Thanks.

 

She sayd the woman was strong. She assumes she's an AS, and is surprised she was missed by her agents when "that lightskirt" Nynaeve was reported to her right away.

 

Well, I think that just says that Graendal is exceptionally strong, not necessarily the same strength as Nyneave. Regardless they're probably quite close in strength. Nyneave is supposed to be the same strength as Semirhage I believe. Graendaly is either the same strength or slight stronger.

 

Agreed, Moghedien doesn't directly compare their levels of strength, but it seems likely they're all in a similar neighborhood.

 

Honestly, I think people pay too much attention to who is slightly stronger than whom. Contests of any kind rarely come down to a simple measure of pure strength.

[Tavokk]

I don't see why they'd need to turn them at the Town though, for all we know it could be done anywhere. Maybe being near Shayol Ghul is necessary?

 

I doubt it would be easy to hid the presence of 13 Myrddraal from non-turned channelers, even somewhere as large as the BT grounds. Moving them to a remote location (town) makes some sense if they're trying to keep it on the sly.

[MasterAblar]

Agreed, Moghedien doesn't directly compare their levels of strength, but it seems likely they're all in a similar neighborhood.

 

Honestly, I think people pay too much attention to who is slightly stronger than whom. Contests of any kind rarely come down to a simple measure of pure strength.

 

Agreed strength is only going to decide a battle when there is substancial difference between two individuals. Otherwise it's just an additional advantage. I'm really just curious to see where everybody ranks.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I don't see why they'd need to turn them at the Town though, for all we know it could be done anywhere. Maybe being near Shayol Ghul is necessary?

 

I doubt it would be easy to hid the presence of 13 Myrddraal from non-turned channelers, even somewhere as large as the BT grounds. Moving them to a remote location (town) makes some sense if they're trying to keep it on the sly.

In regards to Tarna and others at the BT. I have assumed for a while that females who have undergone the 13 x13 conversion would be turned by 13 males and 13 fades. I do not remember reading this anywhere so I perhaps this is wrong. Can anyone clarify?