Could Egwene turn from the light?

[thisguy]

If you believe Fel's reasoning, the bore could not be sealed by LTT at that time. This means that there had to be some flaw in any plan used by the As of the time to seal the bore.

 

As for the present age: does anybody know if Egwene has set any of the AS to figuring out how to seal the bore? I have no memory of her doing so.

 

huh? the bore could not be sealed at that time? That's just BS. nowhere does fel say that. The flaw was using a plaster to heal a wound that needed to be stiched actually. That's what fel was trying to say at that time. Pity it took LTT 3000 years to realise this fact

Fel says at this point in the pattern the bore is completely sealed, that means when time moves to that point again, it will be completely sealed again. The major moves of every age are the same.

[Elan Tedronai]

If you mean that wheel is doomed to repeat the same cycle of breaking and sealing then you're right. My point is fel was saying in order to reach the age of legends the prison has to be sealed completely in the current age.

 

But whatever LTT or rand does in this age to seal the bore completely it could have also be done in the war of power. At least that's what i think. When you and i read AMOL in a few months time and see the prison closed up only then we can say whether it was something LTT could not do in the previous age

[thisguy]

If you mean that wheel is doomed to repeat the same cycle of breaking and sealing then you're right. My point is fel was saying in order to reach the age of legends the prison has to be sealed completely in the current age.

 

But whatever LTT or rand does in this age to seal the bore completely it could have also be done in the war of power. At least that's what i think. When you and i read AMOL in a few months time and see the prison closed up only then we can say whether it was something LTT could not do in the previous age

Is Rand's age the age before the age of Legends? What we know is that the bore needs to be completely sealed like new at the start of the age of legends.

If the pattern didn't want a completely sealed bore there wouldn't be one. I don't believe it was in LTT's, or anyone's power, to seal the bore correctly at the time of the AoL.

 

edit: I predict that whatever Rand decides to do - or whatever happens, regardless of what he decides - there will be a new flaw in the how the bore is sealed. Rand's age is only the third age out of 7 ages. Unless the bore is sealed perfectly twice and opened perfectly twice by the end of the AoL, I don't think's going to be seal properly in this age.

[Thrasymachus]

Is Rand's age the age before the age of Legends?

Yes, due to the nature of circular time. It's not the immediately prior age to the Age of Legends, I believe that the general consensus is that that's our age, but, if you keep going from the end of the 3rd age eventually you'll end up back at the AoL. That's the point Fel was making. The 3rd age is both before and after the drilling of the Bore. And since the Creator doesn't take a hand in his creations, and any action by the "Pattern" to "self-correct" will appear, from within the Pattern, to be the result of innate (if rare) potentialities of the people, places and things within the Pattern, then it must appear to be within the power of the people, places and things within the Pattern to seal the Bore "permanently." If Rand al'Thor does it, then LTT could have done it, if circumstances and knowledge were different. Put it this way, Rand (and Nyn) cleansed the taint. AoL/Breaking channelers would have been able to do the same thing, in fact they did in creating the Eye on a smaller scale, if they had or could create a large enough repository of an equal and opposite power that could cancel out all the taint.

 

And this whole thread is stupid and has turned into just another Egwene bashing thread with some Latra bashing on the side for flavor. Dumb.

[thisguy]

Is Rand's age the age before the age of Legends?

Yes, due to the nature of circular time. It's not the immediately prior age to the Age of Legends, I believe that the general consensus is that that's our age, but, if you keep going from the end of the 3rd age eventually you'll end up back at the AoL. That's the point Fel was making. The 3rd age is both before and after the drilling of the Bore. And since the Creator doesn't take a hand in his creations, and any action by the "Pattern" to "self-correct" will appear, from within the Pattern, to be the result of innate (if rare) potentialities of the people, places and things within the Pattern, then it must appear to be within the power of the people, places and things within the Pattern to seal the Bore "permanently." If Rand al'Thor does it, then LTT could have done it, if circumstances and knowledge were different. Put it this way, Rand (and Nyn) cleansed the taint. AoL/Breaking channelers would have been able to do the same thing, in fact they did in creating the Eye on a smaller scale, if they had or could create a large enough repository of an equal and opposite power that could cancel out all the taint.

 

And this whole thread is stupid and has turned into just another Egwene bashing thread with some Latra bashing on the side for flavor. Dumb.

that's what I was asking. If it's not the age immediately prior to the AoL, there's a good chance the bore is not going to be sealed properly.

[Thrasymachus]

Well, it was bored into a thinness in the Pattern anyway, so maybe. But it'll no doubt be a better seal than LTT's and at some point, the Dark One has to be sealed up well enough that everybody forgets about him, even in legend and myth. And when he gets sealed up like that, it'll be the result of the people, places and things within the Pattern doing something. It follows, therefore, that it is within the power of a person or people who are currently alive in Randland or will be alive at some point in the future to "permanently" seal the Dark One, or at least seal him up well enough as to make no appreciable difference between their sealing and the Creator's sealing.

[thisguy]

Well, it was bored into a thinness in the Pattern anyway, so maybe. But it'll no doubt be a better seal than LTT's and at some point, the Dark One has to be sealed up well enough that everybody forgets about him, even in legend and myth. And when he gets sealed up like that, it'll be the result of the people, places and things within the Pattern doing something. It follows, therefore, that it is within the power of a person or people who are currently alive in Randland or will be alive at some point in the future to "permanently" seal the Dark One, or at least seal him up well enough as to make no appreciable difference between their sealing and the Creator's sealing.

Right. But, if the pattern doesn't want a perfect seal at the end of the 3rd age, there won't be a perfect seal. The time isn't ripe for that.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Is Rand's age the age before the age of Legends?

Yes, due to the nature of circular time. It's not the immediately prior age to the Age of Legends, I believe that the general consensus is that that's our age, but, if you keep going from the end of the 3rd age eventually you'll end up back at the AoL. That's the point Fel was making. The 3rd age is both before and after the drilling of the Bore. And since the Creator doesn't take a hand in his creations, and any action by the "Pattern" to "self-correct" will appear, from within the Pattern, to be the result of innate (if rare) potentialities of the people, places and things within the Pattern, then it must appear to be within the power of the people, places and things within the Pattern to seal the Bore "permanently." If Rand al'Thor does it, then LTT could have done it, if circumstances and knowledge were different. Put it this way, Rand (and Nyn) cleansed the taint. AoL/Breaking channelers would have been able to do the same thing, in fact they did in creating the Eye on a smaller scale, if they had or could create a large enough repository of an equal and opposite power that could cancel out all the taint.

 

And this whole thread is stupid and has turned into just another Egwene bashing thread with some Latra bashing on the side for flavor. Dumb.

that's what I was asking. If it's not the age immediately prior to the AoL, there's a good chance the bore is not going to be sealed properly.

 

Quite the opposite. Rand's age is the one immediately after the AOL. The Age of Legends was the 2nd Age and Rand's age is the 3rd Age. At the end of the 3rd Age the DO's prison has to be in its original state.

[thisguy]

Is Rand's age the age before the age of Legends?

Yes, due to the nature of circular time. It's not the immediately prior age to the Age of Legends, I believe that the general consensus is that that's our age, but, if you keep going from the end of the 3rd age eventually you'll end up back at the AoL. That's the point Fel was making. The 3rd age is both before and after the drilling of the Bore. And since the Creator doesn't take a hand in his creations, and any action by the "Pattern" to "self-correct" will appear, from within the Pattern, to be the result of innate (if rare) potentialities of the people, places and things within the Pattern, then it must appear to be within the power of the people, places and things within the Pattern to seal the Bore "permanently." If Rand al'Thor does it, then LTT could have done it, if circumstances and knowledge were different. Put it this way, Rand (and Nyn) cleansed the taint. AoL/Breaking channelers would have been able to do the same thing, in fact they did in creating the Eye on a smaller scale, if they had or could create a large enough repository of an equal and opposite power that could cancel out all the taint.

 

And this whole thread is stupid and has turned into just another Egwene bashing thread with some Latra bashing on the side for flavor. Dumb.

that's what I was asking. If it's not the age immediately prior to the AoL, there's a good chance the bore is not going to be sealed properly.

 

Quite the opposite. Rand's age is the one immediately after the AOL. The Age of Legends was the 2nd Age and Rand's age is the 3rd Age. At the end of the 3rd Age the DO's prison has to be in its original state.

good point. D'uh. It is the next age, right. So, I doubt the bore will be sealed properly this time either.

[Morden]

What Egwene and many others seem to have forgotten, and perhaps a few of you as well is that LTT lived during the time after the Bore had been drilled until the breaking(cant remmeber exactly how long but 50-100years). So would it be wrong to think that he would not know how much impact that would have? if the DO could freely touch the world. There were limits then, and there will be limits now. Just because everyone seems to think it automatically means 'OMG we're all going to die in 5... 4... 3... 2.. 1..'

 

when its plainly obvious it is and never was that simple. Yes the DO can seriously mess things up, but the limits are just as firm, that and with how weak the seals are it doesnt make a great deal of difference, except that for every action there is a reaction. the stronger the shadow grows, the stronger Rand becomes.

 

As for Egwene and turning to the shadow? seriously doubt it, it would be counter productive for the DO to do that, as all he has to do is manipulate her into opposing Rand, if she was turned, Rand would realise as soon as he saw her.

 

As for those moaning about Min being the one to find out the answers, with her being uneducated etc. Rand is erm Tav'eren... he kinda pulls people to him that he needs and pushes them into the right direction.... couldnt be something as crazy as someone who has the ability to see the pattern to an extent having a better chance than an Aes Sedai who is convinced that the three must become one, mean three cities...

 

Aes Sedai are not all knowing, they are as flawed as everyone else in the WoT, that is their greatest weakness and biggest strength. The problem is most seem to think they are gods gift, and everyone has treated them like they were for so long that they have forgotten that they can make mistakes. They make a concerted effort to cover up all mistakes, and because of this still dont learn. However when you point them in the right direction, they will try their best even if they dislike being proved wrong by unworthy people who cannot channel.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Is Rand's age the age before the age of Legends?

Yes, due to the nature of circular time. It's not the immediately prior age to the Age of Legends, I believe that the general consensus is that that's our age, but, if you keep going from the end of the 3rd age eventually you'll end up back at the AoL. That's the point Fel was making. The 3rd age is both before and after the drilling of the Bore. And since the Creator doesn't take a hand in his creations, and any action by the "Pattern" to "self-correct" will appear, from within the Pattern, to be the result of innate (if rare) potentialities of the people, places and things within the Pattern, then it must appear to be within the power of the people, places and things within the Pattern to seal the Bore "permanently." If Rand al'Thor does it, then LTT could have done it, if circumstances and knowledge were different. Put it this way, Rand (and Nyn) cleansed the taint. AoL/Breaking channelers would have been able to do the same thing, in fact they did in creating the Eye on a smaller scale, if they had or could create a large enough repository of an equal and opposite power that could cancel out all the taint.

 

And this whole thread is stupid and has turned into just another Egwene bashing thread with some Latra bashing on the side for flavor. Dumb.

that's what I was asking. If it's not the age immediately prior to the AoL, there's a good chance the bore is not going to be sealed properly.

 

Quite the opposite. Rand's age is the one immediately after the AOL. The Age of Legends was the 2nd Age and Rand's age is the 3rd Age. At the end of the 3rd Age the DO's prison has to be in its original state.

good point. D'uh. It is the next age, right. So, I doubt the bore will be sealed properly this time either.

 

No, the bore has to be sealed properly this time. The Last Battle doesn't have its name for the fun of it. It is the last battle against the DO in this turning of the Wheel. After this the DO won't be seen again until the AOL comes again and the next Mierin and the next Beidomon create another Bore.

[Morden]

good point. D'uh. It is the next age, right. So, I doubt the bore will be sealed properly this time either.

 

Only if we're assuming that there are X amount of ages when there could infact be Y amount.

 

For instance:

 

Age 1: Dark Age/resurgence of the OP

Age 2: AoL/Bore

Age 3: Post Breaking/Dragon Reborn.

Age 4: Post LB Industrial age/loss of the OP

 

Always saw it as circular and split into quarters but for all I know it could be divided differently

[thisguy]

good point. D'uh. It is the next age, right. So, I doubt the bore will be sealed properly this time either.

 

Only if we're assuming that there are X amount of ages when there could infact be Y amount.

 

For instance:

 

Age 1: Dark Age/resurgence of the OP

Age 2: AoL/Bore

Age 3: Post Breaking/Dragon Reborn.

Age 4: Post LB Industrial age/loss of the OP

 

Always saw it as circular and split into quarters but for all I know it could be divided differently

Unless I'm mistaken - there are 7 ages to a complete revolution of the wheel.

[thisguy]

Is Rand's age the age before the age of Legends?

Yes, due to the nature of circular time. It's not the immediately prior age to the Age of Legends, I believe that the general consensus is that that's our age, but, if you keep going from the end of the 3rd age eventually you'll end up back at the AoL. That's the point Fel was making. The 3rd age is both before and after the drilling of the Bore. And since the Creator doesn't take a hand in his creations, and any action by the "Pattern" to "self-correct" will appear, from within the Pattern, to be the result of innate (if rare) potentialities of the people, places and things within the Pattern, then it must appear to be within the power of the people, places and things within the Pattern to seal the Bore "permanently." If Rand al'Thor does it, then LTT could have done it, if circumstances and knowledge were different. Put it this way, Rand (and Nyn) cleansed the taint. AoL/Breaking channelers would have been able to do the same thing, in fact they did in creating the Eye on a smaller scale, if they had or could create a large enough repository of an equal and opposite power that could cancel out all the taint.

 

And this whole thread is stupid and has turned into just another Egwene bashing thread with some Latra bashing on the side for flavor. Dumb.

that's what I was asking. If it's not the age immediately prior to the AoL, there's a good chance the bore is not going to be sealed properly.

 

Quite the opposite. Rand's age is the one immediately after the AOL. The Age of Legends was the 2nd Age and Rand's age is the 3rd Age. At the end of the 3rd Age the DO's prison has to be in its original state.

good point. D'uh. It is the next age, right. So, I doubt the bore will be sealed properly this time either.

 

No, the bore has to be sealed properly this time. The Last Battle doesn't have its name for the fun of it. It is the last battle against the DO in this turning of the Wheel. After this the DO won't be seen again until the AOL comes again and the next Mierin and the next Beidomon create another Bore.

You may be correct, but even RJ said that this is A Last Battle, not The Last Battle.

[Morden]

good point. D'uh. It is the next age, right. So, I doubt the bore will be sealed properly this time either.

 

Only if we're assuming that there are X amount of ages when there could infact be Y amount.

 

For instance:

 

Age 1: Dark Age/resurgence of the OP

Age 2: AoL/Bore

Age 3: Post Breaking/Dragon Reborn.

Age 4: Post LB Industrial age/loss of the OP

 

Always saw it as circular and split into quarters but for all I know it could be divided differently

Unless I'm mistaken - there are 7 ages to a complete revolution of the wheel.

 

Interesting that it would be 7, that strikes me as oddly unbalanced, which is something the whole series is based upon. thats why I assumed it was 4 myself. that way there would be 2 ages where the DO was able to cause chaos, and 2 where the world was free.

 

But I suppose that if there are 7, then a good 3 of them would be totally meaningless with no reason except to forget the existence of the DO and everything else. still makes no sense to me though.

[thisguy]

good point. D'uh. It is the next age, right. So, I doubt the bore will be sealed properly this time either.

 

Only if we're assuming that there are X amount of ages when there could infact be Y amount.

 

For instance:

 

Age 1: Dark Age/resurgence of the OP

Age 2: AoL/Bore

Age 3: Post Breaking/Dragon Reborn.

Age 4: Post LB Industrial age/loss of the OP

 

Always saw it as circular and split into quarters but for all I know it could be divided differently

Unless I'm mistaken - there are 7 ages to a complete revolution of the wheel.

 

Interesting that it would be 7, that strikes me as oddly unbalanced, which is something the whole series is based upon. thats why I assumed it was 4 myself. that way there would be 2 ages where the DO was able to cause chaos, and 2 where the world was free.

 

But I suppose that if there are 7, then a good 3 of them would be totally meaningless with no reason except to forget the existence of the DO and everything else. still makes no sense to me though.

His idea of the Wheel is based on the Vedic belief in the Yugas.

So:

Top of the wheel are basically the golden ages: 1 in ascension one descending

Below that on either side, the silver ages: again, one ascending (left side), one descending

Below that on either side, the bronze age (dwarpa): same again, one on each side.

On the bottom is the dark age.

7 ages in total.

[Morden]

Interesting, I wonder at what point Randland is at though. And what they consider to be the golden age, for all we know the AoL is merely silver.

[thisguy]

Interesting, I wonder at what point Randland is at though. And what they consider to be the golden age, for all we know the AoL is merely silver.

I'm guessing that the AoL is the golden age. But the bit of it that we see is on the descending side. I don't really see Rand's time as a silver age. Then again, RJ based the WoT on this, doesn't mean he didn't take his own liberties with it.

 

Also, thinking about it, I believe Rand's age might be two ages after the Breaking. The Trolloc wars, and what comes before, may be the silver age. They were more powerful (the Randlandians) at that point than in Rand's time....

[b3arz3rg3r]

Is Rand's age the age before the age of Legends?

Yes, due to the nature of circular time. It's not the immediately prior age to the Age of Legends, I believe that the general consensus is that that's our age, but, if you keep going from the end of the 3rd age eventually you'll end up back at the AoL. That's the point Fel was making. The 3rd age is both before and after the drilling of the Bore. And since the Creator doesn't take a hand in his creations, and any action by the "Pattern" to "self-correct" will appear, from within the Pattern, to be the result of innate (if rare) potentialities of the people, places and things within the Pattern, then it must appear to be within the power of the people, places and things within the Pattern to seal the Bore "permanently." If Rand al'Thor does it, then LTT could have done it, if circumstances and knowledge were different. Put it this way, Rand (and Nyn) cleansed the taint. AoL/Breaking channelers would have been able to do the same thing, in fact they did in creating the Eye on a smaller scale, if they had or could create a large enough repository of an equal and opposite power that could cancel out all the taint.

 

And this whole thread is stupid and has turned into just another Egwene bashing thread with some Latra bashing on the side for flavor. Dumb.

that's what I was asking. If it's not the age immediately prior to the AoL, there's a good chance the bore is not going to be sealed properly.

 

Quite the opposite. Rand's age is the one immediately after the AOL. The Age of Legends was the 2nd Age and Rand's age is the 3rd Age. At the end of the 3rd Age the DO's prison has to be in its original state.

good point. D'uh. It is the next age, right. So, I doubt the bore will be sealed properly this time either.

 

No, the bore has to be sealed properly this time. The Last Battle doesn't have its name for the fun of it. It is the last battle against the DO in this turning of the Wheel. After this the DO won't be seen again until the AOL comes again and the next Mierin and the next Beidomon create another Bore.

You may be correct, but even RJ said that this is A Last Battle, not The Last Battle.

 

And in what way is that in conflict with what I've said? The Last Battle of a turning of the Wheel means there'll be another at the same point of each turning. So it's "A" Last Battle.

 

As for the 7 ages I think it's something like this:

 

1st Age Fall of Man, Exodus

2nd Age AOL

3rd Age Current Age

4th Age The height of mankind. One Power + tech

5th Age Loss of the OP, disappearance of everything magical in the world, Ogier and Finn retreat

6th Age The "real world" Age

7th Age Genesis chapter. Mankind living in Paradise under the sheltering hand of the Creator. Creation of divine artifacts like the Horn of Valere

[thisguy]

There is no conflict with what you said, it just doesn't mean this is where the bore gets sealed for good. It may, it may not.

[b3arz3rg3r]

There is no conflict with what you said, it just doesn't mean this is where the bore gets sealed for good. It may, it may not.

 

Oh come on. As if that was even remotely possible. This is epic fantasy and epic fantasy has certain rules. One of those is that at the end the hero achieves complete victory.

[thisguy]

There is no conflict with what you said, it just doesn't mean this is where the bore gets sealed for good. It may, it may not.

 

Oh come on. As if that was even remotely possible. This is epic fantasy and epic fantasy has certain rules. One of those is that at the end the hero achieves complete victory.

If you say so. That's not done in LOTR or the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, though. Or, in David Edding's books either.

[b3arz3rg3r]

There is no conflict with what you said, it just doesn't mean this is where the bore gets sealed for good. It may, it may not.

 

Oh come on. As if that was even remotely possible. This is epic fantasy and epic fantasy has certain rules. One of those is that at the end the hero achieves complete victory.

If you say so. That's not done in LOTR or the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, though. Or, in David Edding's books either.

 

It sure is done in LOTR. Every villain in the story gets his ass kicked and the ring and Sauron get destroyed for good and they won't ever rise again.

I don't know about Thomas Covenant since I only read the first two books of it. As for Eddings, you can bet your ass that the heroes achieve complete victory. Both Belgarion and Sparhawk end up killing first the evil god and then the evil stone.

 

Just so you know complete victory doesn't mean that there isn't a price the heroes have to pay. The hero sacrificing something to achieve the complete victory is really nothing special.

[thisguy]

The Silmarillion - Morgoth is defeated but Sauron is let go and so are some of the other baddies - the balrog of Moria being one. They torment the people of ME later on.

The Akallabeth - Sauron is defeated but not destroyed. However, his plan destroys Numenor and the Undying Lands are removed from the circles of the world.

LOTR - Sauron is destroyed but the destruction of his ring also destroys the power of the three Elvish rings and most of them leave ME. Gandalf says that evil will rise again but they only have to worry about the evil of that age.

 

Eddings - The characters defeat Torak but haven't fixed the problem. that's done in the second series.

 

Rand will defeat the DO in these books but may or many not seal the bore perfectly. Even if he does, it will be pierced in another age and he will be reborn to fight it again. There is no absolute victory.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The Silmarillion - Morgoth is defeated but Sauron is let go and so are some of the other baddies - the balrog of Moria being one. They torment the people of ME later on.

The Akallabeth - Sauron is defeated but not destroyed. However, his plan destroys Numenor and the Undying Lands are removed from the circles of the world.

 

Very bad examples. Those aren't epic fantasy they are basically a collection of short stories written in an atrocious biblical style. In fact reading the bible is probably more entertaining than reading the Silmarillon.

 

LOTR - Sauron is destroyed but the destruction of his ring also destroys the power of the three Elvish rings and most of them leave ME. Gandalf says that evil will rise again but they only have to worry about the evil of that age.

 

The elves were already starting to leave at the beginning of LOTR and the elven rings were just part of the sacrifice to achieve the complete victory. As for Gandalfs words, well in the Wheel of time there too will be evil in the age after the current one, it just will be only the evil of mankind. Not of the DO. Same as in LOTR.

 

 

Eddings - The characters defeat Torak but haven't fixed the problem. that's done in the second series.

 

Another bad example. The problem of the other magical stone isn't even alluded to in the first series. Taken by itself the Belariad has complete victory and if you take both series as one there still is a complete victory. It's even more complete than before, because this time Eddings manage to have everyone pair up. Besides I don't see a WOT part 2 coming.

 

Rand will defeat the DO in these books but may or many not seal the bore perfectly. Even if he does, it will be pierced in another age and he will be reborn to fight it again. There is no absolute victory.

 

It'll be as complete a victory as the world RJ has created allows. I won't continue to argue about this, since I regard this as pointless. Rand will seal the DO completely that's a fact for me, that's something I've knows since TEOTW. If you think it's a mystery you can keep doing that, but don't expect me to take your opinion in this regard seriously.