Mat's Luck

[Agitel]

There's the phrase "the Dark One's own luck"

 

Is that just a phrase, or is the Dark One actually really lucky?

 

It's a phrase. Like here people are wont to say, that guy is lucky as hell. It doesn't mean hell or being in hell is lucky. It's just a phrase people use.

 

I assumed it's based in the Dark One actually taking a hand in things, while the Creator doesn't. It's like saying that he "must have made a deal with the devil" or something.

 

Do we have any evidence of it? (Not being smart, asking a serious question) I don't think we do. I'm pretty sure its just a phrase.

 

Human beings hate being thwarted. Evil humans do whatever they like, with no conscience right? So, if 2 people are both in the same business, one tries to do right, the other doesn't care who he screws over, the noncaring guy will probably do better. People tend to connect evil and success with being lucky, when in reality it's just by caring you screw yourself over. However sticking to your guns and beliefs is worth it to you, so you're the real winner.

 

It's a hard concept to express via text. I hope that made sense. :(

 

Yeah... it's just a phrase, like "he must have made a deal with the devil."

 

And yes, we have plenty of evidence that, in the metaphysics of this world, the Dark One tries to take a hand in molding reality while the Creator "takes no part", that the Dark One makes promises of of glory and immortality to those who swear themselves to him, while the Wheel and reality is considered neutral and unbiased in the odds. Either way it fits. We can't really make a call on whether it's the "true" origin of the phrase, of course.

 

Well yea he tries, but I mean do we have any evidence that his offered immorality was more than a Lie? I think SH is the closest we see to him doing something himself, everthing else the DO manages to do, is him speaking to people and they doing stuff or the TP.

 

It's irrelevant whether he actually can grant immortality. Only the perception matters. And "historically," people swear to the Dark One in exchange for promised favors. And we've also seen clear examples of him manipulating reality, and that's with the Seals still partially in place.

[Vardar]

Aren't the bubbles of evil the Dark One affecting the world?

 

Yes. But it's not on purpose. He releases little bubbles of chaos, he doesn't control the form they take (As far as I know, perhaps I'm wrong)

[Vardar]

It's irrelevant whether he actually can grant immortality. Only the perception matters. And "historically," people swear to the Dark One in exchange for promised favors. And we've also seen clear examples of him manipulating reality, and that's with the Seals still partially in place.

 

I believe it's perfectly relevant when discussing if being evil gives you some actual edge. Yes they swear in exchange for promises, but have any of those been delivered. (Besides promises of assistence from others who serve him). I mean seems to me, that his actual "influence" is all mortal. The only thing he can do (Up into SH hits the town) is tell people what to do and count on them obeying. Aside from granting TP. I mean, If the Trollocs, and Fades and humans stopped obeying him all together, what could he do to force someone to his will? Not a damn thing.

[Agitel]

Aren't the bubbles of evil the Dark One affecting the world?

 

Yes. But it's not on purpose. He releases little bubbles of chaos, he doesn't control the form they take (As far as I know, perhaps I'm wrong)

 

I doubt he exerts exact control over all the bubbles. But the reality around Shayol Ghul is his to command, and the Blight seems to be him exerting a corrupting influence around where he can still touch the world. The long drought and the food spoilage are certainly intentional measures, though, and his influence becomes greater the weaker the seals become.

[EmperorAllspice]

Wait, then what was with the endless winter in book 1? How did he achieve that kind of control? And how did Rand even break it?

[Vardar]

Aren't the bubbles of evil the Dark One affecting the world?

 

Yes. But it's not on purpose. He releases little bubbles of chaos, he doesn't control the form they take (As far as I know, perhaps I'm wrong)

 

I doubt he exerts exact control over all the bubbles. But the reality around Shayol Ghul is his to command, and the Blight seems to be him exerting a corrupting influence around where he can still touch the world. The long drought and the food spoilage are certainly intentional measures, though, and his influence becomes greater the weaker the seals become.

 

Yea SG is his. No doubt there. But you don't "Have" to go there.

 

Oh yea, endless winter and summer. Good point EA! We don't know what broke the first, Rand using the eye did it, but we don't know how. The second took the bowl of winds.

 

We just know he had to work hard to achieve that.

 

The food spoilage was Rand thought Agi. (I know, confusing)

[Agitel]

Wait, then what was with the endless winter in book 1? How did he achieve that kind of control? And how did Rand even break it?

 

There was an exceptionally long winter that's just ending as the series begin. I'm not sure how much of that to attribute to the Dark One. I might just say that it may have been influenced by the Dark One, but that his ability to shape reality was still too limited as the seals where still too strong. Maybe he could only push so much for so long on that issue at that time. I'm not entirely sure.

[Agitel]

Aren't the bubbles of evil the Dark One affecting the world?

 

Yes. But it's not on purpose. He releases little bubbles of chaos, he doesn't control the form they take (As far as I know, perhaps I'm wrong)

 

I doubt he exerts exact control over all the bubbles. But the reality around Shayol Ghul is his to command, and the Blight seems to be him exerting a corrupting influence around where he can still touch the world. The long drought and the food spoilage are certainly intentional measures, though, and his influence becomes greater the weaker the seals become.

 

Yea SG is his. No doubt there. But you don't "Have" to go there.

 

Oh yea, endless winter and summer. Good point EA! We don't know what broke the first, Rand using the eye did it, but we don't know how. The second took the bowl of winds.

 

We just know he had to work hard to achieve that.

 

The food spoilage was Rand thought Agi. (I know, confusing)

 

There was additional food spoilage in "Dark Rand's" presence, but the spoilage is far more pervasive and widespread than that. Our AoL flashbacks in The Shadow Rising also demonstrated that global food spoilage was a problem during the War of Power, and they relied heavily on the Voice and the Song to make crops grow.

[Vardar]

Aren't the bubbles of evil the Dark One affecting the world?

 

Yes. But it's not on purpose. He releases little bubbles of chaos, he doesn't control the form they take (As far as I know, perhaps I'm wrong)

 

I doubt he exerts exact control over all the bubbles. But the reality around Shayol Ghul is his to command, and the Blight seems to be him exerting a corrupting influence around where he can still touch the world. The long drought and the food spoilage are certainly intentional measures, though, and his influence becomes greater the weaker the seals become.

 

Yea SG is his. No doubt there. But you don't "Have" to go there.

 

Oh yea, endless winter and summer. Good point EA! We don't know what broke the first, Rand using the eye did it, but we don't know how. The second took the bowl of winds.

 

We just know he had to work hard to achieve that.

 

The food spoilage was Rand thought Agi. (I know, confusing)

 

There was additional food spoilage in "Dark Rand's" presence, but the spoilage is far more pervasive and widespread than that. Our AoL flashbacks in The Shadow Rising also demonstrated that global food spoilage was a problem during the War of Power, and they relied heavily on the Voice and the Song to make crops grow.

 

See I thought it was said by BS that all the spoilage was caused by Rand and his The Dragon is tied to the Land crap.

 

And in AOL, It was more the lands where the food was grown being destroyed was the issue I don't recall spoiling specifically being mentioned.

[Zorlon]

As to the Blademaster, your mightiest warriors throughout history seem to fall to farmers or shepherds with little more than a sling or a hayfork.

Slings and hayforks vs swords are not proper duels.

 

Citation needed for master swordsmen being defeated, in a duel, by a kid with a few weeks training being a frequent thing.

 

RJ modeled a lot of his swordplay and even his swords and weapons off Japanese weapons and forms. Fast strikes with the ultimate goal of killing your opponent quickly to preserve strength. After all, most battles aren't done with after killing only one man.

Samurai were not accustomed to fighting duels?

[Mr Ares]

Actually, where does his luck come from. Rand is a channeler. Perrin is a Wolfbrother. Both of those things existed outside of Ta'veren at one point.

 

Was superhuman luck ever a thing in the age of legends? XD

Mat's luck began when he picked up the dagger, and increased when he was severed from it. Either the dagger made him lucky, or it helped bring that power out of him.

[FarShainMael]

The EncWoT entry on Mat notes that he survived the destruction of his house in the TR when the Trollocs attacked (EotW7):

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/m/mat.html

 

Was his luck responsible?

[Mr Ares]

No, Mat's luck could not be responsible for keeping him alive in the TR. His being ta'veren could be, or it could just be ordinary human luck, nothing supernatural. But his super luck started after SL. (They became ta'veren a few weeks before Moiraine found them - so there's enough of a time lapse for there to be some indicator of increased luck.)

[FarShainMael]

Wasn't there something in ToM about Graendal realising how difficult it was to kill a ta'veren? Can't find the ref atm.

 

OK, found it:

 

It had to be done carefully. Aybara was ta'veren, and so strongly one as to be frightening. Arrows fired from afar would miss, and in a time of peaceful contemplation, he would be alerted and escape.

 

She needed a tempest with him at the centre of it. And then, the blade would fall. This is not done yet, Fallen Blacksmith. Not by an inch or by a league.

[LoLPoR]

Mat's Luck is a side effect of his time spent carrying the dagger so wouldn't it be connected to the same power that Fain is using. Just a thought.

[EmperorAllspice]

I'm sorry. Mat's luck continues to bother the living DAYLIGHTS out of me.

 

Seriously, how do you fight a person like this?

 

I thought his luck wasn't supposed to effect things that involved skill. but then his girlfriend in book 5 broke her knife on his medallion trying to stab him. A Maiden Of The Spear messed up a stab?!

 

if stuff like THAT can happen, why does he EVER need to defend himself? He could just blindfold himself and lurch about wildly. The book doesn't seem to be implying otherwise.

[Arran]

No, Mat's luck could not be responsible for keeping him alive in the TR. His being ta'veren could be, or it could just be ordinary human luck, nothing supernatural. But his super luck started after SL. (They became ta'veren a few weeks before Moiraine found them - so there's enough of a time lapse for there to be some indicator of increased luck.)

 

I think RJ said once that the three boys becoming Ta'Veren didn't happen until the moment they left the Two Rivers, so it's not that.

[Arran]

I'm sorry. Mat's luck continues to bother the living DAYLIGHTS out of me.

 

Seriously, how do you fight a person like this?

 

I thought his luck wasn't supposed to effect things that involved skill. but then his girlfriend in book 5 broke her knife on his medallion trying to stab him. A Maiden Of The Spear messed up a stab?!

 

if stuff like THAT can happen, why does he EVER need to defend himself? He could just blindfold himself and lurch about wildly. The book doesn't seem to be implying otherwise.

 

Sorry for the double post, but I think some things like this are used as a writing mechanism or something to add to the excitement of the moment or another character trait without ever having any real physics or explanation to it. You just gotta take some things at face value, I think 

[EmperorAllspice]

Why am I the only person bothered by stuff like this? Ta'veren, Mat's luck. It's blatant contrivance hiding behind a lampshade. Lampshades generally aren't a good thing

 

Mat is invincible. It's hard to be engaged in a story when I honestly don't feel like one of the main characters is EVER danger

[EmperorAllspice]

and whenever he is it's because his luck decides to stop working one day rather than his enemies genuinely outsmarting/fighting him. Which is what interests me far more than waiting for plot contrivances to save or screw over the main characters

[Jason Williams]

I've always wondered about the ethical aspects of his gambling. Isn't playing dice when you know you're going to win (overall) because of some kind of magic equivalent to gambling with loaded dice?

[Aulduron]

My crazy theory is that Lanfear gave him the luck. When he was recovering in TV she came to see him, and did something to him with the power, before she was interrupted and left. As soon as he left the tower his luck kicked in. Since there is a Ter'angreal, made by a chaneller, dealing with luck, it stands to reason that a chaneller with her knowledge and power could also deal with luck.

[Suttree]

My crazy theory is that Lanfear gave him the luck. When he was recovering in TV she came to see him, and did something to him with the power, before she was interrupted and left. As soon as he left the tower his luck kicked in. Since there is a Ter'angreal, made by a chaneller, dealing with luck, it stands to reason that a chaneller with her knowledge and power could also deal with luck.

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)

Question

In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began, is this a connection or coincidence?

Robert Jordan

That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

Isabel

[Hehe, another theory busted, and a very interesting answer. I am going for Shadar Logoth now.]

Question

In that case, what was Lanfear doing?

Robert Jordan

She was checking his health. She doesn't care very much, except that he is important to Rand, to Lews Therin, him and Perrin both, so she is interested in, the one she wants mainly is Lews Therin, or wanted anyway, and uh, so she is interested in these other two ta'veren, who seemed to be tied in with him, because they might be important to him.

[Aulduron]

Ah well. Glad I didn't start a whole thread about it.

[Torome]

All of it is really just Deus Ex Machina, but RJ decided to actually incorporate it into the consciousness of the story by adding onto it and renaming the it ta'veren.  This way his characters could overcome those 'certain death' moments and when people point out how many times this crap happens he can have a character say "Ta'veren" and that is all the explaination needed.  It is actually very clever.