Rand vs Cadsuane

[Vardar]

Well the multiplier could always be something like 1.2 . That would be a steady increase, but not too ridiculous. And Nyn wouldn't be twice as powerful at two levels above. She'd be 1.44 times stronger than them. Which means should could hold 44% more power than them, if that is the metric for power levels.

 

Yea that makes sense. That's still getting crazy!

[driedraspberry]

Actually crap, just reread this, Elayne says a not strong Angreal will give her Twice the Strength of Ny.

 

Hmm, none of this makes sense now. Power levels must not have standard increments in power between them, i,e, the power increase from 1 to 2 isn't the same as 14-15. Let me rethink this.

 

It makes sense if you make the scale logarithmic. That is, each increase in level is a multiplier in strength. Such as, someone at level 4 would be twice as powerful as someone at level 3. Or, someone at level 17 would be twice as powerful as someone at 16, and 4 times as powerful as someone at 15.

 

Since angreals seem to be a purely static addition, then an angreal that would jump you from a 2 to a 12, would push you from a 12 to a 13. These level examples could change depending on what the multiplier difference is between the levels.

 

That said, I think we are digging a little deep. As much as I love trying to determine how the rules in a fantasy world work, I simply don't think there is enough evidence in the books to determine exactly how it works.

 

Hmm that makes a lot of sense. So when women grow in the power their clime is steady, as in they go from one level to the next, whereas men jump up multiple levels at once.

 

My only problem with the power level chart is it presumes every level is currently represented in the story, but since there so few occupy the highest levels that doesn't have to be the case. Lanfear could be level 23 for all we know, with no one living in Randland right now at 21 and 22.

[Mr Ares]

Firstly, you have the problem of finding the Chosen. Not all of them broadcast their whereabouts. Then you ave to deal with whatever guards and other forces they have. She can't just Travel into their countries, she has to do it the old fashioned way. Even if she was able to find and kill one or two, the others would rapidly become aware of the threat facing them and turn their attentions to destroying her. They have a lot more knowledge of the Power than she does, and experience of dealing with things like rival channelers trying to kill them. She has a few advantages, such as her ability to disrupt enemy weaving, but that by no means renders her a god, and capable of laying waste to the Chosen. It's your stance that makes no sense.

 

Moraine was able to find a few of them rather easily. At first they made no secret of their whereabouts. Guards? They barely trusted each other, What guards did Belal have? Sam? Ravhin? In all those cases, not many is the answer. They had a few traps and such, but her other hair items could help with that.

Some of them made little secret of their whereabouts. Others very much did. So she'd probably find Be'lal, Sammael and Rahvin without too much difficulty, if she knew to look, but beyond that, she's going to struggle. As for guards, Be'lal had a fortress full of them - they were distracted by an Aiel assault, which a lone Cadsuane wouldn't have. Sammael had a city full of guards, who were kept out of the fighting by the Legion of the Dragon. And Rahvin had a city full of guards, and a small army of Trollocs, and it was the Aiel again who kept them away from the Rand/Rahvin fight. Cadsuane has no back up. So it is one woman against the armies and fortresses of her foes. And the Chosen themselves. Now, if you consider several hundred armed men to be "not many" guards, then our views are so divergent that reasonable debate is impossible.

 

More knowledge, yes, a lot more? Well, at this point in the game that becomes debatable. The forsaken, while old, were all near her age before sealing (at or around) so while they know things, so does she, things not known in AOL (like the warder bond, etc).

OP knowledge in the AoL was far more comprehensive than it is now. The Chosen most definitely know more than she does. Yes, she does have some knowledge that they don't. I don't know how much help the Warder bond will be, but she knows it and they don't. Anything else? Whereas they know Traveling, Inverting and Reversing weaves, fighting weaves that aren't just fireballs and lightning.

 

So what it comes down to is her advantages vs the disadvantages.

 

Advantages:

1) Surprise. If she slays forsaken, she'll keep this element, they don't know about weave blocking items. It's a huge advantage (By slaying them I'm implying leaving no witnesses to report exactly what happened)

2) Raw Power: Her Angreal. It makes her more powerful than them, again, she'll keep this one.

3) Her other items that provide assistence.

 

Disadvantages:

1) Experience. That's it. however, her advanced age makes her nearly equal. It's not a huge disadvantage,

For surprise to work, she's got to cross back and forth over the entire continent, assassinating Chosen, with none of them noting the disappearance of a fellow and moving to investigate. We know Graendal looted both Sammael and Rahvin's bases of operations after their deaths. As for witnesses, there are still palaces full of servants and soldiers. She will have to be very careful to avoid being noticed by any of those hundreds of people. So her ability to hold on to the element of surprise is increasingly compromised as time passes. She has an angreal, so she has a strength advantage. She has other tools. The advantages the Chosen have: numbers, reinforcements, knowledge, experience, they've dealt with this specific problem (attempted assassination by channelers) before, they aren't bound by the Three Oaths (meaning they can try to attack her right off the bat - she can't attack until she's sure that they're trying to kill her or that they are one of the Chosen (or a Darkfriend at least), and if nothing else they are better able to run away (and then they will be prepared for her if she tries to carry on). Further, we've seen Cyndane adapt very quickly to being faced by Alivia, who was the stronger thanks to her angreal, and had a weave dissolving ter'angreal. Cadsuane's advantages won't go away, but the Chosen have demonstrated just how quickly it is possible to adapt to them. In other words, she has a very small window of opportunity with any given Chosen, and in more protracted fights things turn increasingly against her. Also, if nothing else, most of them could probably just physically overpower her.

 

I think you have far too simplistic a view of things. It is entirely possible to win in a fight against someone who, on paper, seems to enjoy every advantage over you. Alivia has a lot of experience, but does not have as extensive a knowledge of the OP as the Chosen. Her experience is more limited than theirs - she fulfilled a battlefield role, and outside of that role is very inexperienced. She's the equivalent of an artilleryman of some years standing, being compared to a special forces operative. Different skill sets. Rand has a lot of experience and skills, as does Cadsuane. Her ter'angreal give her a number of advantages. But they are just advantages, not instant win buttons. They blunt some of the offensive and defensive capabilities of her opponents. But they don't remove them completely. Some opponents will be better able to adjust - most male channelers are lacking in knowledge and experience, and therefore would find it harder to adjust. The Chosen or Rand would be better able to. Her own defensive and offensive capabilities are far from insurmountable. In combination, she's a difficult opponent to beat, but Rand and the Chosen are all people who are capable of adapting and overcoming her in a fight. It wouldn't necessarily be easy, but she's just a tough opponent, not god.

 

You are correct. It is possible on paper to win a fight against someone who has all the advantages, that statement applies very well in things like sports. However, somethings it doesn't apply very well. Sometimes things are just too far skewed, and off the wall. I'm implying her advantages are SOOOOOO many and powerful, that they should negate anything else. That's my stance. It's a simplistic view, because that's the way it would read on paper.

But that's not at all how it reads on paper, unless you just start ignoring the factors weighed against her. She has some advantages, but we are talking about the people best able to adapt to those advantages.

 

Let us take a hypothetical attack on Rahvin. Assuming she doesn't start by trying to storm the palace single-handed, he would likely meet her before they start fighting. He would likely try to compel her, and in doing so discover her ter'angreal. Unless she has received confirmation, in her own mind, that he is a Chosen, she still cannot try to kill him, but he is aware that she has at least some degree of resistance to direct weaves. So he will likely have the opportunity to strike first. She is forced into being reactive right from the start. I see no point at which her advantages become insurmountable. He knows he is faced with a threat, so he can plan his first attack - if she strikes first, she's limited, while he isn't. Your argument just boils down to you saying she should be god, but not providing any reason to think so. What advantage does she have that cannot be compensated for?

[Entreri]

Rand Sedai would win against Cadsuane.

 

When a much weaker Rand (than he is currently) was fighting Lanfear in book 5, if LTT took over, he would have finished her (according to Rand's PoV).

 

Men are much stronger in the Power, and LTT was the greatest Aes Sedai in AoL.

 

Rand also has access to the True Power and knows about those medallions.

 

Alivia just barely managed to hold off against Cydnane. LTT would be much stronger and more skilled than Lanfear.

 

Cadsuane is toast.

[Entreri]

Does the ter'angreal affect shielding? It seems like it wouldn't and I would think Rand's first move would be to try and slam a shield in. I'm not sure how much more powerful than someone you have to be to throw a shield in when they're already embrassing the source, but it seems possible.

 

Regardless of being able to shield her, i don't think Cads ever wins. I don't think she'd be able to hit him with anything. She is the only non-forsaken, non-taim character(not sure he has a chance, we haven't seen much) that would even put up a fight though.

 

Yes, Cadsuane will never be able to hit Rand with anything, unless she started using balefire (which is a forbidden weave she will not use).

 

Rand will take her. He will use weaves she could never imagine or let alone use.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

Does the ter'angreal affect shielding? It seems like it wouldn't and I would think Rand's first move would be to try and slam a shield in. I'm not sure how much more powerful than someone you have to be to throw a shield in when they're already embrassing the source, but it seems possible.

 

Regardless of being able to shield her, i don't think Cads ever wins. I don't think she'd be able to hit him with anything. She is the only non-forsaken, non-taim character(not sure he has a chance, we haven't seen much) that would even put up a fight though.

 

Yes, Cadsuane will never be able to hit Rand with anything, unless she started using balefire (which is a forbidden weave she will not use).

 

Rand will take her. He will use weaves she could never imagine or let alone use.

Some of the stuff he used against the armies of the DO at Maradon come to mind. Like what he used against the Draghkar. If Cadsuane was frozen its game over. (was that a direct weave?)

[Vardar]

Let us take a hypothetical attack on Rahvin. Assuming she doesn't start by trying to storm the palace single-handed, he would likely meet her before they start fighting. He would likely try to compel her, and in doing so discover her ter'angreal. Unless she has received confirmation, in her own mind, that he is a Chosen, she still cannot try to kill him, but he is aware that she has at least some degree of resistance to direct weaves. So he will likely have the opportunity to strike first. She is forced into being reactive right from the start. I see no point at which her advantages become insurmountable. He knows he is faced with a threat, so he can plan his first attack - if she strikes first, she's limited, while he isn't. Your argument just boils down to you saying she should be god, but not providing any reason to think so. What advantage does she have that cannot be compensated for?

 

Why wouldn't she know Rahvin was a forsaken if she's attacking him. So you start this hypothetical attack on someone and then give the first move to the guy being attacked? How does that work. Even if he starts with compelling, he doesn't know instantly her Ter'Angral blocks all direct weaves, at that point he just knows she cannot be compelled. Point Cads. Now she's free to attack, mind you at this point he's in for surprise #2, because she's as strong or stronger than him with her Angral. She also is used to fighting male channelers, so one would assume she can slice weaves she can't see.

 

I've stated my reasoning, I've stated my thoughts on her advantage. If you choose not to accept them, that's on you. However don't claim I didn't state any, that's just a lie.

[Mr Ares]

Let us take a hypothetical attack on Rahvin. Assuming she doesn't start by trying to storm the palace single-handed, he would likely meet her before they start fighting. He would likely try to compel her, and in doing so discover her ter'angreal. Unless she has received confirmation, in her own mind, that he is a Chosen, she still cannot try to kill him, but he is aware that she has at least some degree of resistance to direct weaves. So he will likely have the opportunity to strike first. She is forced into being reactive right from the start. I see no point at which her advantages become insurmountable. He knows he is faced with a threat, so he can plan his first attack - if she strikes first, she's limited, while he isn't. Your argument just boils down to you saying she should be god, but not providing any reason to think so. What advantage does she have that cannot be compensated for?

 

Why wouldn't she know Rahvin was a forsaken if she's attacking him. So you start this hypothetical attack on someone and then give the first move to the guy being attacked? How does that work. Even if he starts with compelling, he doesn't know instantly her Ter'Angral blocks all direct weaves, at that point he just knows she cannot be compelled. Point Cads. Now she's free to attack, mind you at this point he's in for surprise #2, because she's as strong or stronger than him with her Angral. She also is used to fighting male channelers, so one would assume she can slice weaves she can't see.

She would have to establish he was a Chosen before first meeting him. Without the prior knowledge that the Chosen were free, of course. And he wasn't quite as inclined to broadcast his identity as Sammael and Be'lal. Now, him being a male channeler in a position of power is reason enough for her to take a hand in trying to deal with him - leaving someone who will go insane in charge of one of the most powerful countries in the world is not a good idea. So firstly, how does she know he is a Chosen? What leads her to that conclusion? Because if she doesn't reach that conclusion before fighting him, then she is reliant on him trying to kill her before she is free to act. Also,Cyndane switched to indirect weaves after her one direct attack failed - I see no reason why the others couldn't draw the same conclusions and adapt in the same way. How does she deal with his army? What if he flees into t'a'r? She can't follow, and even if she did suddenly discover how to, he has the advantage of her there. She has experience of dealing with male channelers, that is true. She has experience dealing with men with no training, who don't know what they are doing for the most part. She does not have experience of fighting men who learnt how to channel when the knowledge of channeling was far more extensive than it is now, men who have been comprehensively trained, and with years of experience using the OP in war, against channeling opponents with as much knowledge as them, and alongside allies who are trying to kill them. So we are dealing with a man who is paranoid, skilled, experienced, well trained, with an army to back him up, not hindered by any Oaths. Her strength compared to his even with the angreal is unknown.

 

I've stated my reasoning, I've stated my thoughts on her advantage. If you choose not to accept them, that's on you. However don't claim I didn't state any, that's just a lie.

You've stated her advantages are too great to be overcome, but not why. Yes, she has a bunch of advantages - but given that you flat out ignored the advantages the Chosen have, even when I pointed them out to you, I'm no closer to understanding why you think no-one could stand against her.

[Vardar]

She would have to establish he was a Chosen before first meeting him. Without the prior knowledge that the Chosen were free, of course. And he wasn't quite as inclined to broadcast his identity as Sammael and Be'lal.

 

No he didn't however she is rather bright. If Morianne can figure out Sam/Be'Lal, I think Cads could figure out something was funny with Cads. There were AS spies in the Palace, I think if Cads went Forsaken slayer mode, there were enough hints for her to figure it out.

 

 

Now, him being a male channeler in a position of power is reason enough for her to take a hand in trying to deal with him - leaving someone who will go insane in charge of one of the most powerful countries in the world is not a good idea. So firstly, how does she know he is a Chosen? What leads her to that conclusion? Because if she doesn't reach that conclusion before fighting him, then she is reliant on him trying to kill her before she is free to act.

 

Research, check my statement above. We're dealing with hypothetical situations, I think she's bright enough to figure it out.

 

Also,Cyndane switched to indirect weaves after her one direct attack failed - I see no reason why the others couldn't draw the same conclusions and adapt in the same way.

 

Actually we don't know that. We know she was surprised by the attack, and came to the conclusion that he direct weave didn't work, but do we see the next attack?

 

How does she deal with his army? What if he flees into t'a'r? She can't follow, and even if she did suddenly discover how to, he has the advantage of her there.

 

True. However I'm counting on his egotistical nature to keep him dumbfounded long enough for her to destroy him.

 

She has experience of dealing with male channelers, that is true. She has experience dealing with men with no training, who don't know what they are doing for the most part. She does not have experience of fighting men who learnt how to channel when the knowledge of channeling was far more extensive than it is now, men who have been comprehensively trained, and with years of experience using the OP in war, against channeling opponents with as much knowledge as them, and alongside allies who are trying to kill them.

 

Now in the last thread you said Logain knew enough to be a danger before she captured him, now he's untrained? The second part I'll give you, however she gets an advantage because his nature will interfere. He won't expect much from her, and will dismiss her as a threat. Much like he did with Mograse.

 

So we are dealing with a man who is paranoid, skilled, experienced, well trained, with an army to back him up, not hindered by any Oaths. Her strength compared to his even with the angreal is unknown.

 

Unknown, but can be assumed, it should put her on the Level near Rand, above Ravhin. The math get's rather sketchy, due to not knowing exactly how Power Levels work between numbers, but a relatively weak Angreal can raise Elayne to twice Ny's strength, which means a few levels at least. Assuming Cad's is more powerful than a relatively weak Angreal, or an average one, it means she'll be more powerful than Rav who has none.

[thisguy]

Rand weaves a cloak of invisibility and sits waiting outside of Cadsuane's room. When she comes out he uses a blow dart dipped in fork root tea and some sleeping agent Nynaeve gave him. She falls down asleep unable to touch the source. Rand takes away all of her terangreal and leaves her in Sanchean controlled Tanchico.

[Suttree]

Rand weaves a cloak of invisibility and sits waiting outside of Cadsuane's room. When she comes out he uses a blow dart dipped in fork root tea and some sleeping agent Nynaeve gave him. She falls down asleep unable to touch the source. Rand takes away all of her terangreal and leaves her in Sanchean controlled Tanchico.

 

Her Terangreal would disrupt the invisibility weave like it did Semi's disguise, not to mention she would have already been alerted to the presence of channeling.

 

True. However I'm counting on his egotistical nature to keep him dumbfounded long enough for her to destroy him.

 

We have already seen him run to Tar when threatened against Rand at a time when he wasn't all that trained.

[thisguy]

Rand weaves a cloak of invisibility and sits waiting outside of Cadsuane's room. When she comes out he uses a blow dart dipped in fork root tea and some sleeping agent Nynaeve gave him. She falls down asleep unable to touch the source. Rand takes away all of her terangreal and leaves her in Sanchean controlled Tanchico.

 

Her Terangreal would disrupt the invisibility weave like it did Semi's disguise, not to mention she would have already been alerted to the presence of channeling.

 

True. However I'm counting on his egotistical nature to keep him dumbfounded long enough for her to destroy him.

 

We have already seen him run to Tar when threatened against Rand at a time when he wasn't all that trained.

Ok, Rand wears wears a wise one outfit, stuffing his bra with indigenous fruit from the waste and waits outside her door. When she comes out he uses a blow dart dipped in fork root tea and some sleeping agent Nynaeve gave him. She falls down asleep unable to touch the source. Rand takes away all of her terangreal and leaves her in Sanchean controlled Tanchico.

[Suttree]

Rand weaves a cloak of invisibility and sits waiting outside of Cadsuane's room. When she comes out he uses a blow dart dipped in fork root tea and some sleeping agent Nynaeve gave him. She falls down asleep unable to touch the source. Rand takes away all of her terangreal and leaves her in Sanchean controlled Tanchico.

 

Her Terangreal would disrupt the invisibility weave like it did Semi's disguise, not to mention she would have already been alerted to the presence of channeling.

 

True. However I'm counting on his egotistical nature to keep him dumbfounded long enough for her to destroy him.

 

We have already seen him run to Tar when threatened against Rand at a time when he wasn't all that trained.

Ok, Rand wears wears a wise one outfit, stuffing his bra with indigenous fruit from the waste and waits outside her door. When she comes out he uses a blow dart dipped in fork root tea and some sleeping agent Nynaeve gave him. She falls down asleep unable to touch the source. Rand takes away all of her terangreal and leaves her in Sanchean controlled Tanchico.

 

Lol! That was actually quite good.

[Kamin_Majere]

If we are going off of mundane means why not just use a good two rivers long bow. Rand was about the 2nd best shot in the Edmonds Field and if one of their archers can hit a banner pole in Perrins hand while hidden by trees at 200+ paces then he should be able to snipe her dead.

 

But thats a very boring battle... we want weaves that will terrify being thrown around

[Vardar]

Rand weaves a cloak of invisibility and sits waiting outside of Cadsuane's room. When she comes out he uses a blow dart dipped in fork root tea and some sleeping agent Nynaeve gave him. She falls down asleep unable to touch the source. Rand takes away all of her terangreal and leaves her in Sanchean controlled Tanchico.

 

Her Terangreal would disrupt the invisibility weave like it did Semi's disguise, not to mention she would have already been alerted to the presence of channeling.

 

True. However I'm counting on his egotistical nature to keep him dumbfounded long enough for her to destroy him.

 

We have already seen him run to Tar when threatened against Rand at a time when he wasn't all that trained.

 

Would he consider her a Threat? The scorn they show these half trained children is amazing. Even Moggy remarks that she would like to see Ravhin come up against Ny without her block, that's gotta count for something.

[driedraspberry]

Rand weaves a cloak of invisibility and sits waiting outside of Cadsuane's room. When she comes out he uses a blow dart dipped in fork root tea and some sleeping agent Nynaeve gave him. She falls down asleep unable to touch the source. Rand takes away all of her terangreal and leaves her in Sanchean controlled Tanchico.

 

Her Terangreal would disrupt the invisibility weave like it did Semi's disguise, not to mention she would have already been alerted to the presence of channeling.

 

True. However I'm counting on his egotistical nature to keep him dumbfounded long enough for her to destroy him.

 

We have already seen him run to Tar when threatened against Rand at a time when he wasn't all that trained.

Ok, Rand wears wears a wise one outfit, stuffing his bra with indigenous fruit from the waste and waits outside her door. When she comes out he uses a blow dart dipped in fork root tea and some sleeping agent Nynaeve gave him. She falls down asleep unable to touch the source. Rand takes away all of her terangreal and leaves her in Sanchean controlled Tanchico.

 

Omg. I can't breathe. The lengths Rand would have to go to....lol

[Entreri]

Does the ter'angreal affect shielding? It seems like it wouldn't and I would think Rand's first move would be to try and slam a shield in. I'm not sure how much more powerful than someone you have to be to throw a shield in when they're already embrassing the source, but it seems possible.

 

Regardless of being able to shield her, i don't think Cads ever wins. I don't think she'd be able to hit him with anything. She is the only non-forsaken, non-taim character(not sure he has a chance, we haven't seen much) that would even put up a fight though.

 

Yes, Cadsuane will never be able to hit Rand with anything, unless she started using balefire (which is a forbidden weave she will not use).

 

Rand will take her. He will use weaves she could never imagine or let alone use.

Some of the stuff he used against the armies of the DO at Maradon come to mind. Like what he used against the Draghkar. If Cadsuane was frozen its game over. (was that a direct weave?)

 

Against Shai'tan's armies he used lightning, giant icicles raining down, tornados, all of which would be indirect weaves. Someone like Rand Sedai would know 1000's of indirect weaves, he is greatest AS of AoL, and has been an AS close to 400 years or so.

[Mr Ares]

She would have to establish he was a Chosen before first meeting him. Without the prior knowledge that the Chosen were free, of course. And he wasn't quite as inclined to broadcast his identity as Sammael and Be'lal.

 

No he didn't however she is rather bright. If Morianne can figure out Sam/Be'Lal, I think Cads could figure out something was funny with Cads. There were AS spies in the Palace, I think if Cads went Forsaken slayer mode, there were enough hints for her to figure it out.

Moiraine started from the perspective that the Chosen were already free (having faced them already). That's a leg up Cadsuane doesn't have. And, as stated, Be'lal and Sammael broadcast their identities for anyone who knew what to look for. Rahvin didn't. What hints does she have available that make this guy being a Chosen not just a reasonable deduction, but a certainty?

 

Now, him being a male channeler in a position of power is reason enough for her to take a hand in trying to deal with him - leaving someone who will go insane in charge of one of the most powerful countries in the world is not a good idea. So firstly, how does she know he is a Chosen? What leads her to that conclusion? Because if she doesn't reach that conclusion before fighting him, then she is reliant on him trying to kill her before she is free to act.

 

Research, check my statement above. We're dealing with hypothetical situations, I think she's bright enough to figure it out.

So she learns via deus ex machina, and has no realistic way of learning it. Gotcha.

 

Also,Cyndane switched to indirect weaves after her one direct attack failed - I see no reason why the others couldn't draw the same conclusions and adapt in the same way.

Actually we don't know that. We know she was surprised by the attack, and came to the conclusion that he direct weave didn't work, but do we see the next attack?

Do we need to? She deduces that Alivia has a ter'angreal based off one failed attack. And it does state that the earth heaved as Cyndane made her counter-attack.

 

How does she deal with his army? What if he flees into t'a'r? She can't follow, and even if she did suddenly discover how to, he has the advantage of her there.

True. However I'm counting on his egotistical nature to keep him dumbfounded long enough for her to destroy him.

Well, that worked so well facing Rand. He was so dumbfounded at him bypassing all of his wards, that he didn't then proceed into a running battle, and then into t'a'r.

 

She has experience of dealing with male channelers, that is true. She has experience dealing with men with no training, who don't know what they are doing for the most part. She does not have experience of fighting men who learnt how to channel when the knowledge of channeling was far more extensive than it is now, men who have been comprehensively trained, and with years of experience using the OP in war, against channeling opponents with as much knowledge as them, and alongside allies who are trying to kill them.

 

Now in the last thread you said Logain knew enough to be a danger before she captured him, now he's untrained? The second part I'll give you, however she gets an advantage because his nature will interfere. He won't expect much from her, and will dismiss her as a threat. Much like he did with Mograse.

Yes, Logain is untrained. That doesn't mean complete ignorance, so there is no conflict in what I say. A male channeler who just sparks and has no-one around to teach him might figure some things out, but it is a hit and miss approach to learning, and Rand couldn't even consistently grasp the Source on demand until Asmo taught him. There is likely to be a vast degree of difference between whatever Logain or others can figure out, and a man trained at the height of OP knowledge. As for dismissing her as a threat, it is likely he will at first. But as soon as he discovers that his weaves can't touch her, that's likely to change. We've seen how quickly the Chosen can adapt to this knowledge. Cadsuane's advantage in that disappears quickly. So she has a brief period in which to kill him. Thus she is incredibly reliant on surprise.

 

Ok, Rand wears wears a wise one outfit, stuffing his bra with indigenous fruit from the waste and waits outside her door. When she comes out he uses a blow dart dipped in fork root tea and some sleeping agent Nynaeve gave him. She falls down asleep unable to touch the source. Rand takes away all of her terangreal and leaves her in Sanchean controlled Tanchico.

So does he just have a Wise Ones outfit and some fruit for bra stuffing handy? I didn't know he was into that sort of thing.

 

Against Shai'tan's armies he used lightning, giant icicles raining down, tornados, all of which would be indirect weaves. Someone like Rand Sedai would know 1000's of indirect weaves, he is greatest AS of AoL, and has been an AS close to 400 years or so.

Rand isn't an AS at all. He's not even 40 years old, let alone 400.

[Vardar]

Moiraine started from the perspective that the Chosen were already free (having faced them already). That's a leg up Cadsuane doesn't have. And, as stated, Be'lal and Sammael broadcast their identities for anyone who knew what to look for. Rahvin didn't. What hints does she have available that make this guy being a Chosen not just a reasonable deduction, but a certainty?

 

AS Spies in the Palace are acting strangely, Morgase herself is acting strangely. A little study, a little research to see this "Country Lord" has 0 background, BAM, something is up. The Forsaken are free, it's a few logical jumps to the conclusion that something is up with this guy.

 

Do we need to? She deduces that Alivia has a ter'angreal based off one failed attack. And it does state that the earth heaved as Cyndane made her counter-attack.

 

That is a far cry from what you claimed. She dediced that it interrupted that attack. She doesn't know how well it works, what it works on, how powerful it is. As far as she knows, it stops fireballs. You claimed she instantly knew what to do against it.

 

Yes, Logain is untrained. That doesn't mean complete ignorance, so there is no conflict in what I say. A male channeler who just sparks and has no-one around to teach him might figure some things out, but it is a hit and miss approach to learning, and Rand couldn't even consistently grasp the Source on demand until Asmo taught him. There is likely to be a vast degree of difference between whatever Logain or others can figure out, and a man trained at the height of OP knowledge. As for dismissing her as a threat, it is likely he will at first. But as soon as he discovers that his weaves can't touch her, that's likely to change. We've seen how quickly the Chosen can adapt to this knowledge. Cadsuane's advantage in that disappears quickly. So she has a brief period in which to kill him. Thus she is incredibly reliant on surprise.

 

Now you're just backtracking. In the last thread I said Logain has learned a lot and jumped in power, and your claim was he hasn't learned that much, because he knew quite a bit when he was caught, thus a battle against him now wouldn't be that different. Make up your mind.

 

Well, that worked so well facing Rand. He was so dumbfounded at him bypassing all of his wards, that he didn't then proceed into a running battle, and then into t'a'r.

 

At that point Rand was still doing a lot of things by accident. Cads knows how to attack, when to attack and such. She's no novice with the power. She's been at this thing for over 300 years. Rand had a few months.

 

Rand isn't an AS at all. He's not even 40 years old, let alone 400.

 

Rand is now fully intergrated with LTT, and thus has access to all of his memories and experiences. Rand himself calls himself AS. He is AS.

[Suttree]

That is a far cry from what you claimed. She dediced that it interrupted that attack. She doesn't know how well it works, what it works on, how powerful it is. As far as she knows, it stops fireballs. You claimed she instantly knew what to do against it.

 

No Cyndane immediately says it must be a ter that unravels "webs". It wasn't just that attack.

[thisguy]

Moiraine started from the perspective that the Chosen were already free (having faced them already). That's a leg up Cadsuane doesn't have. And, as stated, Be'lal and Sammael broadcast their identities for anyone who knew what to look for. Rahvin didn't. What hints does she have available that make this guy being a Chosen not just a reasonable deduction, but a certainty?

 

AS Spies in the Palace are acting strangely, Morgase herself is acting strangely. A little study, a little research to see this "Country Lord" has 0 background, BAM, something is up. The Forsaken are free, it's a few logical jumps to the conclusion that something is up with this guy.

 

Do we need to? She deduces that Alivia has a ter'angreal based off one failed attack. And it does state that the earth heaved as Cyndane made her counter-attack.

 

That is a far cry from what you claimed. She dediced that it interrupted that attack. She doesn't know how well it works, what it works on, how powerful it is. As far as she knows, it stops fireballs. You claimed she instantly knew what to do against it.

 

Yes, Logain is untrained. That doesn't mean complete ignorance, so there is no conflict in what I say. A male channeler who just sparks and has no-one around to teach him might figure some things out, but it is a hit and miss approach to learning, and Rand couldn't even consistently grasp the Source on demand until Asmo taught him. There is likely to be a vast degree of difference between whatever Logain or others can figure out, and a man trained at the height of OP knowledge. As for dismissing her as a threat, it is likely he will at first. But as soon as he discovers that his weaves can't touch her, that's likely to change. We've seen how quickly the Chosen can adapt to this knowledge. Cadsuane's advantage in that disappears quickly. So she has a brief period in which to kill him. Thus she is incredibly reliant on surprise.

 

Now you're just backtracking. In the last thread I said Logain has learned a lot and jumped in power, and your claim was he hasn't learned that much, because he knew quite a bit when he was caught, thus a battle against him now wouldn't be that different. Make up your mind.

 

Well, that worked so well facing Rand. He was so dumbfounded at him bypassing all of his wards, that he didn't then proceed into a running battle, and then into t'a'r.

 

At that point Rand was still doing a lot of things by accident. Cads knows how to attack, when to attack and such. She's no novice with the power. She's been at this thing for over 300 years. Rand had a few months.

 

Rand isn't an AS at all. He's not even 40 years old, let alone 400.

 

Rand is now fully intergrated with LTT, and thus has access to all of his memories and experiences. Rand himself calls himself AS. He is AS.

Yes, around the time Rand goes to Far Madding to kill the Ashaman, we see that he can draw and play music that LTT knew. He couldn't draw at all before then. He's using skills, and not by accident, of LTT's by book 9. By the time he's fully intergrated, he remembers pretty much everything that was in LTT's mind.

[Mr Ares]

Moiraine started from the perspective that the Chosen were already free (having faced them already). That's a leg up Cadsuane doesn't have. And, as stated, Be'lal and Sammael broadcast their identities for anyone who knew what to look for. Rahvin didn't. What hints does she have available that make this guy being a Chosen not just a reasonable deduction, but a certainty?

 

AS Spies in the Palace are acting strangely, Morgase herself is acting strangely. A little study, a little research to see this "Country Lord" has 0 background, BAM, something is up. The Forsaken are free, it's a few logical jumps to the conclusion that something is up with this guy.

"Something is up" and "he is a Chosen" are very different conclusions. Given that compulsion is one of the most common wilder tricks, and a man starting to channel is often accompanied by luck or a sudden rise to prominence - actually a result of his channeling - so this could easily just be a male channeler who has set himself up as a king. When does she learn that the Chosen are free? And what, specifically, lets her know that this guy is a Chosen and not just a male channeler? Because, as I've said, the Oaths will hold her unless her life is threatened or unless she knows he is Shadowsworn.

 

Do we need to? She deduces that Alivia has a ter'angreal based off one failed attack. And it does state that the earth heaved as Cyndane made her counter-attack.

 

That is a far cry from what you claimed. She dediced that it interrupted that attack. She doesn't know how well it works, what it works on, how powerful it is. As far as she knows, it stops fireballs. You claimed she instantly knew what to do against it.

No, it is exactly what I said. She deduced that Alivia had a ter'angreal of a type unknown in the AoL after one failed attack. She then reacts accordingly. Now,it might only work on fireballs. Likewise, Rahvin's first move might be the only thing that it stops. But given that it is a battlefield situation, against a stronger opponent, it's not really the ideal time for idle experimentation. If you touch it with the OP and the weave used dissolves, then maybe it's only some weaves that are dissolved, but why not just skip straight to not touching her directly with the OP? Cyndane did, and there's no reason Rahvin shouldn't.

 

Yes, Logain is untrained. That doesn't mean complete ignorance, so there is no conflict in what I say. A male channeler who just sparks and has no-one around to teach him might figure some things out, but it is a hit and miss approach to learning, and Rand couldn't even consistently grasp the Source on demand until Asmo taught him. There is likely to be a vast degree of difference between whatever Logain or others can figure out, and a man trained at the height of OP knowledge. As for dismissing her as a threat, it is likely he will at first. But as soon as he discovers that his weaves can't touch her, that's likely to change. We've seen how quickly the Chosen can adapt to this knowledge. Cadsuane's advantage in that disappears quickly. So she has a brief period in which to kill him. Thus she is incredibly reliant on surprise.

 

Now you're just backtracking. In the last thread I said Logain has learned a lot and jumped in power, and your claim was he hasn't learned that much, because he knew quite a bit when he was caught, thus a battle against him now wouldn't be that different. Make up your mind.

Provide a link to the thread or drop it. Making unsubstantiated claims about what I said in some other thread however many months previously isn't helping your case at all.

 

Well, that worked so well facing Rand. He was so dumbfounded at him bypassing all of his wards, that he didn't then proceed into a running battle, and then into t'a'r.

 

At that point Rand was still doing a lot of things by accident. Cads knows how to attack, when to attack and such. She's no novice with the power. She's been at this thing for over 300 years. Rand had a few months.

Not really a response to my point. Rahvin's egotistical nature didn't stop him reacting when taken by surprise, and running away. Why would Cadsuane taking him by surprise be different?

 

Rand isn't an AS at all. He's not even 40 years old, let alone 400.

Rand is now fully intergrated with LTT, and thus has access to all of his memories and experiences. Rand himself calls himself AS. He is AS.

Which Ajah does he belong to? Has he sworn the Three Oaths? Did he take the test for the shawl, or was he raised by the decree of the Amyrlin? He remembers being AS. The man that was an AS died a long, long time ago. Rand was never AS. And, given that the requirements for being AS have changed since LTT's day, Rand is currently incapable of being AS, unless they change the rules. Him calling himself AS is more an example of him being a dick than of him being an AS.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Rand isn't an AS at all. He's not even 40 years old, let alone 400.

Rand is now fully intergrated with LTT, and thus has access to all of his memories and experiences. Rand himself calls himself AS. He is AS.

Which Ajah does he belong to? Has he sworn the Three Oaths? Did he take the test for the shawl, or was he raised by the decree of the Amyrlin? He remembers being AS. The man that was an AS died a long, long time ago. Rand was never AS. And, given that the requirements for being AS have changed since LTT's day, Rand is currently incapable of being AS, unless they change the rules. Him calling himself AS is more an example of him being a dick than of him being an AS.

 

Na, him calling himself Aes Sedai is to stop Cadsuane being a bitch. And she deserved it. And I'd say now that he has fully integrated his former life he can claim the title without lying. Though I doubt he would seriously claim the title for himself. It all depends on what you think determines the nature of a human being. The sum of one's experiences or the physical body. If it's the body then Moridin isn't Ishamael, Aran'gar wasn't Balthamel and Osan'gar wasn't Dashiva.

If it's the experiences then Rand and LTT are one. Rand knows everything he did as LTT and LTT's victories and defeats are his own victories and defeats. Rand as LTT was raised as an Aes Sedai 3,000 years ago and no one since then stripped him of his title. In a way that makes him a more proper Aes Sedai- as they were originally intended- than the modern day imitations.

[Vardar]

"Something is up" and "he is a Chosen" are very different conclusions. Given that compulsion is one of the most common wilder tricks, and a man starting to channel is often accompanied by luck or a sudden rise to prominence - actually a result of his channeling - so this could easily just be a male channeler who has set himself up as a king. When does she learn that the Chosen are free? And what, specifically, lets her know that this guy is a Chosen and not just a male channeler? Because, as I've said, the Oaths will hold her unless her life is threatened or unless she knows he is Shadowsworn.

 

Knowledge that the Forsaken is free is availble to anyone who wishes to believe and wants to know. The AS know, not all believe.

 

No, it is exactly what I said. She deduced that Alivia had a ter'angreal of a type unknown in the AoL after one failed attack. She then reacts accordingly. Now,it might only work on fireballs. Likewise, Rahvin's first move might be the only thing that it stops. But given that it is a battlefield situation, against a stronger opponent, it's not really the ideal time for idle experimentation. If you touch it with the OP and the weave used dissolves, then maybe it's only some weaves that are dissolved, but why not just skip straight to not touching her directly with the OP? Cyndane did, and there's no reason Rahvin shouldn't.

 

Actually you said:

 

Also,Cyndane switched to indirect weaves after her one direct attack failed - I see no reason why the others couldn't draw the same conclusions and adapt in the same way

 

In the chapter Lanfear thinks to herself that Alivi not knowing how to reverse weaves might be enough for her to take her, and when the earth moves under both their feet, Alivi was counter attacking. Nothing says Lanfear did the attack. In fact, it says Alivi channeled. That was her attack. Point, moot.

 

Not really a response to my point. Rahvin's egotistical nature didn't stop him reacting when taken by surprise, and running away. Why would Cadsuane taking him by surprise be different?

 

Because he was fearful of Rand before even meeting him. he has no reason to be scared of Cads. And it was in response to your point, Cads should be able to attack faster than Rand could at that point.

 

Which Ajah does he belong to? Has he sworn the Three Oaths? Did he take the test for the shawl, or was he raised by the decree of the Amyrlin? He remembers being AS. The man that was an AS died a long, long time ago. Rand was never AS. And, given that the requirements for being AS have changed since LTT's day, Rand is currently incapable of being AS, unless they change the rules. Him calling himself AS is more an example of him being a dick than of him being an AS.

 

So you're suggesting that another group who took the name from the original group now gets precedence over the original? No. LTT is Rand, all memories, thoughts, powers, etc. LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

[Vardar]

Rand isn't an AS at all. He's not even 40 years old, let alone 400.

Rand is now fully intergrated with LTT, and thus has access to all of his memories and experiences. Rand himself calls himself AS. He is AS.

Which Ajah does he belong to? Has he sworn the Three Oaths? Did he take the test for the shawl, or was he raised by the decree of the Amyrlin? He remembers being AS. The man that was an AS died a long, long time ago. Rand was never AS. And, given that the requirements for being AS have changed since LTT's day, Rand is currently incapable of being AS, unless they change the rules. Him calling himself AS is more an example of him being a dick than of him being an AS.

 

Na, him calling himself Aes Sedai is to stop Cadsuane being a bitch. And she deserved it. And I'd say now that he has fully integrated his former life he can claim the title without lying. Though I doubt he would seriously claim the title for himself. It all depends on what you think determines the nature of a human being. The sum of one's experiences or the physical body. If it's the body then Moridin isn't Ishamael, Aran'gar wasn't Balthamel and Osan'gar wasn't Dashiva.

If it's the experiences then Rand and LTT are one. Rand knows everything he did as LTT and LTT's victories and defeats are his own victories and defeats. Rand as LTT was raised as an Aes Sedai 3,000 years ago and no one since then stripped him of his title. In a way that makes him a more proper Aes Sedai- as they were originally intended- than the modern day imitations.

 

 

Exactly! If they're still forsaken after being transmogged, Rand is still AS.