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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

How do we know anything about the DO?


Dagon Thyne
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In the Age of Legends, it has been so long since the DO had last been freed (assuming that the pattern is always the same, with the DO being released in the third age each time, that the people during the AOL did not even remember he existed. So, how do they know anything about him? How do we know that the creator actually sealed him, or anything else about him?

 

I don't see the DO as being the type of being thay admits weakness. So I doubt he would just come out and say that he was defeated and sealed by the creator. So, how and when did humans learn about it.

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Oh, that part about the Creator Sealing Him away at the time of creation is just folklore, and obviously erroneous at that (it also mentions the Forsaken being Sealed at the moment of creation). They knew that they drilled through something, and what else but the Creator (which, basically, they just believe in) could've made that something?

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I have also thought the same thing. Like how they know the Wheel is a wheel. If everything is forgotten and the wheel turns, how do people know that the wheel turns and ages repeat?

 

I think it is a bit of an assumption on their part.

 

The DO would have told them some things, like he existed all the time. Since they had to drill a hole in the pattern, they can assume that he has been imprisoned (I say sealed out, but either way) before that. When LTT failed to seal the Bore properly, they can assume that it was not humanly possible to seal the DO out completely, therefore the Creator must have sealed him out.

 

I could see the DO raging about the bastard Creator "imprisoning" him for all this time, and him pretending to be happy that people had "freed" him, and that in revenge, he would take back the world and make it his own.

 

All of this is half-truth and assumption on peoples part, which leads to the current belief. It makes sense with that in mind.

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Oh, that part about the Creator Sealing Him away at the time of creation is just folklore, and obviously erroneous at that (it also mentions the Forsaken being Sealed at the moment of creation). They knew that they drilled through something, and what else but the Creator (which, basically, they just believe in) could've made that something?

 

Well the DO's prison is remade perfect after every turning of the wheel. So someone has to be remaking the prison.

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I have also thought the same thing. Like how they know the Wheel is a wheel. If everything is forgotten and the wheel turns, how do people know that the wheel turns and ages repeat?

 

I think it is a bit of an assumption on their part.

 

The DO would have told them some things, like he existed all the time. Since they had to drill a hole in the pattern, they can assume that he has been imprisoned (I say sealed out, but either way) before that. When LTT failed to seal the Bore properly, they can assume that it was not humanly possible to seal the DO out completely, therefore the Creator must have sealed him out.

 

I could see the DO raging about the bastard Creator "imprisoning" him for all this time, and him pretending to be happy that people had "freed" him, and that in revenge, he would take back the world and make it his own.

 

All of this is half-truth and assumption on peoples part, which leads to the current belief. It makes sense with that in mind.

 

I always assumed that the DO and Creator are one and the same. Like the force, two halfs of a single whole. They take turns being dominant in order to keep the balance of nature intact. The Creator creates the universe, and then when the world needs to end, the DO brings about it's destruction. They work together. The Dark One knows he will eventually be resealed, but lets his followers believe they will rule the world in order to get them to do the work.

Edited by Dagon Thyne
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Oh, I completely agree, I just don't think that's how they view things. Barid is right, RJ thought the presence of the True Source was evidence enough for the existence of a Creator and the Wheel, and therefore belief in Him is simply good sense, but that seems contrived to me. They just believe because they do, and that seems to be it.

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Oh, I completely agree, I just don't think that's how they view things. Barid is right, RJ thought the presence of the True Source was evidence enough for the existence of a Creator and the Wheel, and therefore belief in Him is simply good sense, but that seems contrived to me. They just believe because they do, and that seems to be it.

 

I think the Creator and DO were born of the TS.

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I always assumed that the DO and Creator are one and the same. Like the force, two halfs of a single whole. They take turns being dominant in order to keep the balance of nature intact.

 

I am not sure about "same", as in jekyll and hyde thing, but definitely two halves of the whole. They are kind of like Saidin and Saidar. Derived from the same source, but different in nature. I think of them as twins, born of the same parents.

 

The "religion" concerning the Creator and Dark One I suspect is incorrect, as yoniy0 says. It is just what the people believe, which makes sense given the information they have on the subject, to which they added assumptions that seem logical.

 

I have always believed that they have got it wrong about the DO from the start. That the Creator didn't imprison the DO, since they are supposed to be equal. I think that the Creator sealed Creation inside a protective shell so the DO couldn't get inside and destroy it.

 

The characters couldn't possibly know that, and one of RJ's biggest themes is misinformation and distortion of facts.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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It's entirely possible most of the information about the Dark One either came from him, or is anecdotal. We know, for instance, that it was the Dark One who told the world his name. We know he told Ishamael many things, some of which Ishamael shared, and there would likely have been others. For the rest--observation of his behaviour and what he can do. For instace the connection with the Grave likely came about as the result of witnessed transmigration, and the dead rising--which likely happened during the Collapse as well, and so on. It's not hard to see how the mythos developed.

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It's entirely possible most of the information about the Dark One either came from him, or is anecdotal. We know, for instance, that it was the Dark One who told the world his name. We know he told Ishamael many things, some of which Ishamael shared, and there would likely have been others. For the rest--observation of his behaviour and what he can do. For instace the connection with the Grave likely came about as the result of witnessed transmigration, and the dead rising--which likely happened during the Collapse as well, and so on. It's not hard to see how the mythos developed.

 

Ishy seems to remember many things about his past lives as well. Perhaps the DO is able to give him a perfect memory, simular to how Rand remembers all of LTT's life as well as his own.

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Ishy is insane, he may know some stuff but much is probably guess work, he was a philosopher after all. I don't think he actually knows his past either. As the other forsaken put it he almost thought he was the dark one himself so much of his rambling was just his insanity showing.

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The Do as admitted weakness , he can't do nothing against time , and one of is name is "father of lies " so he has spread , notably trough Isha , a lot of information about him .

People in the Aol didn't know that the Do existed , they surely would have been more cautious during the drilling , they had a concept for evil , gods ,and the devil , all civilization does . Aol people seems to be rather the scientific kind , so they must have made research on the nature of creation , than there is the foretelling and the prophecies .

The folklore about him been bound by the creator is most likely a deformed tale about LTT strike at Shayo Ghul ,for the rest three thousand year and the lack of proper historical record , or the lack of access to proper record .

After all there is no school in wot beside the White Tower , and the White Tower jealously keep the knowledge for itself , and few book from whom to pick any education at all .

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I have thought about this a lot. I think the Dark One was once a man. We know of one person who survived death and has powers that don't come from the one power. Mordeth survived death in a form.

Mordeth has un-natural powers

Mordeth is said to be an amalgamation never before seen in the pattern

 

I think Mordeth and the DO are like cancers on the pattern. Which is why they have to be lock away outside the pattern.

 

 

In the end i think Mordeth/Rand will kill the darkone and Mordeth will become the new darkone/great evil and be seal away to be released when the wheel turns back to the second age.

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It's entirely possible most of the information about the Dark One either came from him, or is anecdotal. We know, for instance, that it was the Dark One who told the world his name. We know he told Ishamael many things, some of which Ishamael shared, and there would likely have been others. For the rest--observation of his behaviour and what he can do. For instace the connection with the Grave likely came about as the result of witnessed transmigration, and the dead rising--which likely happened during the Collapse as well, and so on. It's not hard to see how the mythos developed.

 

Ishy seems to remember many things about his past lives as well. Perhaps the DO is able to give him a perfect memory, simular to how Rand remembers all of LTT's life as well as his own.

 

We know he doesn't have a perfect memory because he gets mad about the knowledge lost in the turning of the wheel in prologue for path of daggers. Pg 44. (I am reading the books and i am on that book)

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I have thought about this a lot. I think the Dark One was once a man. We know of one person who survived death and has powers that don't come from the one power. Mordeth survived death in a form.

Mordeth has un-natural powers

Mordeth is said to be an amalgamation never before seen in the pattern

 

I think Mordeth and the DO are like cancers on the pattern. Which is why they have to be lock away outside the pattern.

 

 

In the end i think Mordeth/Rand will kill the darkone and Mordeth will become the new darkone/great evil and be seal away to be released when the wheel turns back to the second age.

 

We know per RJ that the DO is the "dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books".

 

As for what is new to the pattern that is Fain not Mordeth. RJ said he has unwittingly "side-stepped" the pattern.

Edited by Suttree
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