Dark One: Thread in the Pattern or External Being?

[Clouded]

"Imprisoned" or "Locked out", I don't think there is much of a difference. All we really need to know is that DO's can not get to where he wants to be. If someone is stuck where they do not want to be, what does it matter how we call it?

[thisguy]

"Imprisoned" or "Locked out", I don't think there is much of a difference. All we really need to know is that DO's can not get to where he wants to be. If someone is stuck where they do not want to be, what does it matter how we call it?

But, being stuck where you don't want to be is imprisonment. Not being able to go somewhere you want to be is being locked out. There is a difference.

[Clouded]

I worded that poorly. The point I was trying to make was, how we term the Dark One's state doesn't matter. All that matters is that we know his goal is to break the Pattern.

[thisguy]

I worded that poorly. The point I was trying to make was, how we term the Dark One's state doesn't matter. All that matters is that we know his goal is to break the Pattern.

 

Fair enough.

[Zorlon]

If the Wheel were in no way inherently involved with the DO, then suppose the DO one day decided "eh, whatever, i don't care anymore. I'ma do my own thing, forget the Wheel of Time" How then does the 2nd age lead into the 3rd? How then does the 3rd exist at all?

 

i'm not saying the DO is part of the wheel, i am arguing the Wheel was designed to interact with the DO, and for that reason the DO's interaction is essential for the Wheel weaving the ages as it should.

 

The only other alternative I see is the Wheel is designed to weave increasingly intricate splendor, like the upward trajectory of the 2nd age before the Bore, but the DO keeps showing up and fouling the weave. But if that were the case the entire 3rd age, as well as any age which isn't free of the DO from start to finish, is just the wheel trying to correct itself.

 

The problem with that alternative is Jordan made it clear Time in his world is meant to be circular, not linear. Without the DO it would be a constant upward climb. A concept of the Wheel of Time in which the Wheel was not designed to interact with the DO is one which violates Jordan's statements about time under the eternal Wheel.

 

It is possible that Jordan's view of the Wheel was not logically coherent, but it is not possible Jordan's view was coherent and did not involve the Wheel being designed to interact with the DO.

[Master of the Anvil]

It does appear that the Wheel is designed to be able to interact with the DO. That doesn't seem like too much of a leap. The creator knows about the DO so he makes the pattern with full knowledge that the DO will try to destory it.

 

 

I am also of the opinion that the DO is not "imprisoned" but is rather outside of the pattern(as the creator is). The DO being the destoryer wants to fight his way into the pattern because that's the only way he can destory it. I do think there is a difference in saying he's outside the patter and that he's imprisoned. First off we know RJ said the creator and DO are equal. So how did he imprison the DO? Second off, if he is imprisoned then what is he imprisoned by/in? Is it the patter? Is it soemthing completely aside from the patter, but touching the patter? And what happens if he gets free? We know from the AoL that he tried to destroy the world, but what then? Then he's not imprisoned anymore and will do what? Attack the creator(this doesn't seem possible)? Would the creator have to imprison him again in say a new pattern or something like that?

 

Idk, it seems much more logical that the DO and the creator are on a pretty level playing field both outside of the pattern. Possibly unable to contact each other, but able to interact with the pattern(we know the creator will not, but he probably can).

[EmperorAllspice]

If the Dark One is truly unkillable, then it kinda makes me see where Ba'alzamon is coming from. It's a never ending cycle and eventually, at some point in the infinity of history, the Dark One will win ONCE. And that's all it takes.

 

That's kinda depressing.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'll jump back in to say that I agree with Zorlon, the Creator created the Wheel and Pattern with the knowledge that the DO would interfere.

 

So the Wheel is equipped to interact with the DO's invasive penchant for destroying all things the Creator makes.

 

Also, just adding to Anvil's point, I could never see how the DO could be imprisoned by the Pattern. The Pattern, after all, is exactly what he is trying to destroy. And can, if he is allowed inside the Pattern. Thus, the Pattern would not be able to hold the DO back, because he can destroy it. Thus, I say there is a protective shell (possibly similar to the "light" that protects Rand's mind against the Taint madness) which prevents the DO from attacking the Pattern. That Shell is what Rand needs to repair, and LTT repaired pretty weakly.

[EmperorAllspice]

So why isn't the Creator helping out?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Because the Creator doesn't want to.

 

He intended to Create the Wheel exactly as it is, DO possibly destroying it included. The Creator isn't "good", nor is the DO "evil".

 

The Creator could possibly interfere (although it is possible that Creating is the only thing the Creator can do, not defend against the DO) but even if He can, he chooses not to. It would mean that His Creation was imperfect (which it isn't, according to Him).

 

Instead the Creator allows humans to decide for themselves. They opened the Bore and allowed the DO to touch the world. They can get themselves out of it, or else the whole thing would be pointless and they would never learn.

[nolirion]

 

 

@ BenevolentCow

 

It has been something I always believed. Firstly, as the Creator and DO are equal, the creator couldn't "imprison" the DO in any case. I believe the Wheel actually imprisons humanity and the Pattern, to safeguard it from the DO, who after all, exists outside of the Wheel and Pattern along with the Creator. The DO is an invading force, the DO, as stated by RJ, opposes everything the Creator does.

 

So they are like two kids at the beach. The Creator built a sandcastle, because he likes creating things like that. The DO, for whatever reason, hates sandcastles, and wants to destroy it. However, the Creator has protected his sandcastle (the pattern) so the DO can't destroy it. Unless the people living in the sandcastle open it from inside, letting the DO in through the secret side passage (the bore).

I think you are making a mistake there , while your reasoning is good and very interesting and make a lot of sense you're putting the creator in a position where I think he don't belong .

First you say That the Creator made the wheel as to "imprison" humanity in a never ending battle against the Do , you are half right , as a fact humanity is trapped in the conflict , as event leading to the drilling of the bore will repeat again and again , but it is in fact the hinderstap phenomenon at the scale of creation .

Hinderstap is the village Matt visit during is trap back to Andor , the village is "cursed" as every night people go crazy and kill each other , dawn comes and the village is reset . Well that is the same thing for Humanity , it is not so much a design of the Creator as an interference from the Do who make it repeat over and over .

The only safeguard the creator put is the dragon , Rand is made to fight against the Shadow he strive for it , in the Hunt we see through is many incarnation that it is in him . The Aiel dedicated themselves to this fight , by the way of the leaf and Ji'e'toh , but other people choose to fight the shadow . Humanity fight the Shadow for survival but individual choose to do so for the own reason they are is not prime directive in their dna that make them fight the shadow . Actually the creator made the wheel knowing it or She/he would offer humanity the chance to do better , witch is the corner stone of the cycle , people are not reborn to do the same mistake over and over again but to do better .

On that point we agree without free will creation is worthless

Your analogy of the Sandcastle is a bit wrong , it would be better to say that the Creator made sand , and that the DO hates sand for the simple reason that it exist , the Do like nothingness , that is why he strive to destroy creation , to make it sweet he wants humanity to do it for him to hurt the Creator .

But Creation is a powerful as either entity , the creator couldn't make it any different or he would have made it pointless .

I believe ultimately there are 3 fate that are open to humanity in wot , first the continuation of the cycle , second the victory of the shadow , third the none opening of the bore .

To be more precise humanity is an indirect creation of the Creator , this perception , humanity as the center of all creation , child of the creator , is one that come from the three main Religion . This is what I think of course , but it is the wheel who made humanity .

[thisguy]

Does anyone know if the DO has a franchise on the Ogier home world?

[XoMeltdownoX]

Does anyone know if the DO has a franchise on the Ogier home world?

We know that if he is freed in one world, he is freed in all. At least that is what Moiraine believes.

[thisguy]

Thank you, md.