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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

a legitimate speculation thread, go.


clu7ch
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Starting this out with a quote

Towers of Midnight Pg. 824

 

"...I asked for it, actually, as one of my three demands. I did not realize they would end up using it against me."

"They gave you your three demands?" Mat asked, frowning.

"I passed through the ter'angreal," she said. "The ancient treaty held for both of us, though with the doorway destroyed, there was no simple return. I knew from...previous events that I would not escape unless you came for me, no matter what my demands were or how carefully I worded them. So I used them for the best."

 

The initial purpose of this isn't entirely to debate Moriaine's other two demands, but I don't dare knock it, if you have good ideas, throw them out here.

 

My main speculation is more concerning this portion:

 

Towers of Midnight Pg. 824

 

"...The ancient treaty held for both of us..."

 

both of course means Moiraine and Lanfear, so what did Lanfear ask for. It apparently wouldn't matter, because she soon dies and becomes soultrapped.

 

If she actually died.

 

I'd say it was entirely possible, given her age, to muse that she may have been to finland before, as Moiraine had, and given a glimpse at the possibility of this fate. Could it be a stretch then, to assume that she would take preventative measures, as Moiraine had, again, to ensure her life. Moiraine said this:

 

Towers of Midnight Pg. 823

 

"They claimed to have killed Lanfear by draining her too quickly, though I think they may have been trying to make me afraid."

 

So aside from the fact that Lanfear is now Cyndane - and soultrapped, we have no proof that she ever actually died. We do, however, have grounds for speculation, if that be the case, as to what her demands were.

 

Furthermore we have this:

Towers of Midnight Pg. 823

 

"A man was there once, when they woke me. He said I was not the one he wanted."

 

Which makes sense for this to be Moridin. which begs a rather important question of: How did he get in?

Did he have knowledge of another doorframe? Did he use the tower? Did he travel straight in?

 

If he was bound by the treaty, he would have been given demands. Which could explain how he would have a soul trap of Lanfear, without her dying.

 

More speculation lol. Alright, thoughts?

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I've been speculating that the --- in the Blight may be a third doorframe.. Mat saw three spires when he went into Aelfinnland, and found himself in one of those spires, in Eelfinnland, after entering via the ToG. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that there is/was one doorframe per spire.

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I've been speculating that the --- in the Blight may be a third doorframe.. Mat saw three spires when he went into Aelfinnland, and found himself in one of those spires, in Eelfinnland, after entering via the ToG. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that there is/was one doorframe per spire.

I like it.

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I like that, and I have to modify part of my original post also, as Lanfear/Cyndane apparently has revealed one of her requests was to be stronger than any aes sedai. I don't have a direct quote, but it was stated in WoTWiki's page on her, as a reference to Cyndane's apparent weakness in the power. However this isn't solid, because Nyn, Egwene, Elayne, and Avi are all superbly powerful in the one power, along with several others - unless of course at the time of the demand, the super girls weren't technically Aes Sedai, and the Finn's are known to have a wonderful understanding of semantics that would make the Aes Sedai's affinity for grammatical cleverness seem like a babbling infant.

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given how Finnland bends time and space into unbelievable shapes, my personal take is that there are only two doorways - one destroyed for sure in Moiraine and Lanfear's fight in FOH, and the other probably destroyed by implication in ToM. Those occupy two of the spires. The third spire would then represent the Tower of Ghenjei, which is at a kind of nexus between the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, but also apparently (if you use the access key Mat has) exists as a junction between WoT-land and Finnland at every point in Finnland. Whoever it was that went in for Lanfear would have entered either by the Tower itself or the door in Tear, and I think more likely the door in Tear - he would then have destroyed it upon leaving which is why Mat and Thom saw rubble where that doorway should have been.

 

/two cents

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The only problem I have with that is a small one, based on my lack of knowledge, but I would assume that even the Finns would be able to dispatch one of the forsaken who entered via the tower. They presumably subdued both Moiraine and Lanfear.

 

The reason I cast aside Moridin entering from the Tower is that if he'd done so recently, I figure the Finn's would be on top of Mat/andco way before he made it to Moiraine. I'm still on it that Moridin came in through a doorway, or has some unmentioned means to enter.

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I would agree with that, clu7ch, which is why I think he came by a doorway. If he went by the one in Tear, it may be that he asked questions related to retrieving Lanfear. The old treaties would hold and he would have been safe for the duration of his visit. Of course, if there is another doorway, then I am wrong.

 

There is also another possibility - that the Shadow has some kind of separate agreement in place. We know that questions touching on the Shadow are punished by the Finns, but we don't know why. That might indicate a different treaty that is unknown to the Light, and if it does perhaps the one who went in for Lanfear made use of that. I consider this somewhat unlikely, but it's a snag I've never understood and that I pick at once in a while.

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given how Finnland bends time and space into unbelievable shapes, my personal take is that there are only two doorways - one destroyed for sure in Moiraine and Lanfear's fight in FOH, and the other probably destroyed by implication in ToM. Those occupy two of the spires. The third spire would then represent the Tower of Ghenjei, which is at a kind of nexus between the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, but also apparently (if you use the access key Mat has) exists as a junction between WoT-land and Finnland at every point in Finnland. Whoever it was that went in for Lanfear would have entered either by the Tower itself or the door in Tear, and I think more likely the door in Tear - he would then have destroyed it upon leaving which is why Mat and Thom saw rubble where that doorway should have been.

 

/two cents

 

The main reason I don't agree with the ToG being one of the spires is that it would ruin the symmetry of the setup. What Mat sees is 'three tall silvery spires, curving in toward each other so their points all aimed at the same spot' (TSR15). Putting the ToG in one spire and doorways in the other two sort of jars on me (but then, I'm not a 'finn.. :wink: ). In fact, I visualise that arrangement as three identical spires surrounding a space which may not be a space, but may correspond to the ToG.

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beings I'm OP and this thread was very....vague in name, i get to hijack without punishment:

 

Anyone else pick up on how the prophecy poems at the start/end of some of the books are from the 4th age? We also have Loial's book, meaning, almost completely, that we won. lol.

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This may be ridiculous but - doesn't Matt get Moiraine out by carving a hole in the side of their tower with his spear? There are other ways to reach the Finns for those with knowledge. Ish has been around for a very long time.

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true, but I'd like to think that RJ/BS wouldn't pull such a fast one on us. We've supposedly been aware of Mat's spear's power since he got it in TSR, I doubt Ishy/Moridin have a similar key laying around. But you are undoubtedly correct, there are other ways in. Slayer is able to go in, just by wanting to, in the wolf dream.

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clu7ch, I kinda think it is a given that Rand has to win in some shape or form. Very few authors end with the destruction of reality. I doubt those looking for true happy endings will be satisfied, but the abject hopelessness of a bad ending would leave a fairly bad taste in most people's mouths - there aren't many who enjoy the worst of all endings, after all. Yes, I did pick up on it, since the current age is "called the Third Age by some" but I haven't read much into it beyond Rand will win somehow and (with Loial's addition) the Ogier will not leave.

 

That brings to mind another question: if the Ogier of Randland had opened the Book of Translation to do whatever it does (moves them in time and space in some fashion, I would assume), would it have worked on all Ogier in all of the world or only those in Randland?

 

thisguy, you may very well be right. We know in world of three ways to access the Finns - two doorways, at least one of which is gone now, and the Tower. Mat's spear doesn't work from anywhere that is not the Tower, and it was given to him by the Finns so we don't know where exactly it came from. And while Ish has been around for a very long time, it's open to speculation how much if any time he spent researching the Finns, or how much he was able to do while partially trapped in the sealing of Shayol Ghul, and therefore how much knowledge he actually has. It's seems likely to me that any direct knowledge Ish has of the Finns comes directly from the Dark One and we have no idea what he knows or would have told to anyone.

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Very few authors end with the destruction of reality.

 

Quite true - but I know one who does; James Blish, in The Triumph of Time.

 

But even that wasn't the complete end ... if I remember correctly, didn't some of the characters become their own new universes?

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Very few authors end with the destruction of reality.

 

Quite true - but I know one who does; James Blish, in The Triumph of Time.

 

But even that wasn't the complete end ... if I remember correctly, didn't some of the characters become their own new universes?

 

They certainly did.. but the principal character opted to make a decidedly non-standard universe. It would probably not have been reality-as-we-know-it at all.

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Very few authors end with the destruction of reality.

 

Quite true - but I know one who does; James Blish, in The Triumph of Time.

 

But even that wasn't the complete end ... if I remember correctly, didn't some of the characters become their own new universes?

 

They certainly did.. but the principal character opted to make a decidedly non-standard universe. It would probably not have been reality-as-we-know-it at all.

 

I'm still going to maintain that Blish's ending does not have the same kind of impact that the Dark One laughing over a Pattern shredded out of existence would have.

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I assumed the man was Slayer. I think Moridin would have killed or captured Moiraine if given the chance. Moridin has the authority to take initiative, but Slayer does not. Slayer is more like a soldier; he follows orders.

 

Also, I thought Moiraine's idea to take preventative measutres comes from her visions in the Terangreal in Rhuidean and not necessarily from the doorframe in Tear; but of course, I am not an expert like many on here and could definitely be wrong.

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You are correct in that Ruthan, Moiraine knew from previous experiences that she was gonna go tumbling through. I was just postulating that Lanfear could have had a similar experience, from the age of legends or even more recently with the doorframe. It's of course completely out of sight which makes it more of a random speculation than a evidenced reality.

 

Also, I never imagined it as slayer. I don't know how well it fits but it is another free variable that could well be.

Actually makes a good deal of sense beings he can enter the tower. Probably leave just as easily.

Edited by clu7ch
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Very few authors end with the destruction of reality.

 

Quite true - but I know one who does; James Blish, in The Triumph of Time.

 

But even that wasn't the complete end ... if I remember correctly, didn't some of the characters become their own new universes?

 

They certainly did.. but the principal character opted to make a decidedly non-standard universe. It would probably not have been reality-as-we-know-it at all.

 

I'm still going to maintain that Blish's ending does not have the same kind of impact that the Dark One laughing over a Pattern shredded out of existence would have.

 

This is my point, exactly.

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Legitimate speculation?

 

The Hundred Weaves will fix the thinness of the Pattern at Shayol Ghul.

 

LOL ... If that happens I will, in order, laugh, cry, shoot up my car door, make sweet, sweet love to my wife, and then sit down with a quart of Ben and Jerry's to watch The Phantom Menace, Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen.

 

Some things, you can only wallow in.

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