Why Alviarin's role in the series is ultimately futile

[Suttree]

Mesaana, this one isn't a complete fuckup like most of the DFs I have to deal with, so I want her kept alive. I'll brand her so no one else tries to kill her either

Simply saying this out loud would have been more than enough, and would have made any supernatural marks completely redundant. It would have actually been much more satisfying to the reader if Shaidar Haran explicitly told Mesaana off for her selfish intention to kill the one Darkfriend that's been consistently useful to the Shadow. It would have also been a more efficient way of degrading/shaming Mesaana. Redundant actions and unnecessary complexity are a sign of poor writing as surely as out-of-place actions.

 

"My hand reaches far, Mesaana. This creature has been a most useful servant to the Shadow, whereas you, a Chosen, ignored your summons. You will not harm her. Not unless I give you lenience to do so, and only if I say the word. Failure to comply... is death."

 

Your opinion is fair enough, however, I wouldn't say it was a proof of bad writing.

 

In counterpoint, having to point out implied meanings and everything happen without mystery or complexity makes it seem that the author thinks their audience is stupid.

 

RJ responded to similar questions (why don't you just say things outright or something similar) saying that he respected his audience enough not to treat them like idiots.

(This is not trying to imply that you are stupid, I am talking about the theory behind the writing)

 

This.

 

One of the biggest issues I have with BS's writing that he feels the need to constantly have characters announce or think about their intentions before they act.

[Sid]

Agreed, RJ's subtlety left rereads many times more enjoyable than with the latest two entries in the series. There's a few things we didn't pick up the first time through with TGS and ToM, but for the most part they're really disappointing in that regard. It makes me want to pound the arm of my chair in frustration sometimes.

[Mr Ares]

Why does it have to help root out BA hunters?

Why does a character need to show intentions and perform actions that make logical sense? Well... because they do. You don't put Rand on a boat and tell him to venture forth into the Aiel Waste, it doesn't make sense. You don't ward Alviarin against Shadowspawn and tell her to stay within the White Tower - it doesn't make sense. She doesn't need a mark that can only be seen by creatures that are nowhere to be found in the vicinity of her domain.

It doesn't make sense if you think SH is giving her a tool to help with her immediate mission. He isn't. His actions do make logical sense. Others have already expanded on the reasons.

 

When she has to be surrounded by Shadowspawn all the time, for example

Give her the mark when it's time to give her a mark. That's good writing. Making characters do things much earlier in the plot than logic dictates is poor writing, it creates a false lead that never pays off.

Never pays off? When the series is still unfinished? It hasn't paid off yet, that doesn't mean it won't. Unless you can show that it won't pay off, your point has no merit.

[Guest demortae]

There is no literary problem with Alviarin's mark nor with the Verin/black ajah hunter story arcs. The mark is a useful tool that may or may not be utilized later as well as a constant reminder to Mesaana of her failure. It also gives the shadow some action that points toward preparation for the last battle, as dreadlords will need some identification, lest they be mistaken for cookpot fodder. The black ajah hunter story arc served the purpose of putting what we get from Verin in perspective, as well as the development of a new faction in the tower that was striving for a common goal. Verin has been one of the most compelling characters of the story, with a long build up to a great conclusion. If the BA hunters did in days (and a couple books) what Verin has been working on for 70 years (and most the series,) that would have simply been disappointing.

[Luckers]

I agree that Alviarin's mark was not a problem in the slightest--if nothing else it serves to show us that Shaidar Haren can do that, and that's more than worth enough.

 

The way the BA Hunters/Alviarin storyline was ended though, was a problem. The entire storyline seemed to slide between the cracks, and it could have been resolved quite easily without any real addition to the text or change in plot.

 

To be clear I'm not blaiming Brandon for this--this was just something that slid through the cracks, one of the unfortunate realities of the shift between authors that we'll simply have to live with.

[FanoLan]

I agree that Alviarin's mark was not a problem in the slightest--if nothing else it serves to show us that Shaidar Haren can do that, and that's more than worth enough.

 

The way the BA Hunters/Alviarin storyline was ended though, was a problem. The entire storyline seemed to slide between the cracks, and it could have been resolved quite easily without any real addition to the text or change in plot.

 

To be clear I'm not blaiming Brandon for this--this was just something that slid through the cracks, one of the unfortunate realities of the shift between authors that we'll simply have to live with.

 

 

Pevara's independently gained knowledge of BA members may yet prove fateful Luckers. Try to not lose hope entirely. Another confrontation with Alviarin is almost a certainty as well. The escalated tension through tGS and ToM indicate a final resolution for Alvi will happen on-page, as it were.

 

 

As to the OP, speculation on Alvi's trip to the islands seems irrationally limited in this thread. Undoubtedly, she was sent for a purpose. A mission if you will. A mission that required a month to complete. By a channeler in service to the DO. A channeler with the DO's mark requiring Shadowspawn obedience. One might conclude Alvi's jaunt served more of a purpose than instigating the Amayar suicide pact.

 

Further, as others have mentioned above, TG is at hand and the DO just might find a use for a channeling DF that can command Shadowspawn. Maybe.

[Glyphwright]

As to the OP, speculation on Alvi's trip to the islands seems irrationally limited in this thread. Undoubtedly, she was sent for a purpose. A mission if you will. A mission that required a month to complete. By a channeler in service to the DO. A channeler with the DO's mark requiring Shadowspawn obedience. One might conclude Alvi's jaunt served more of a purpose than instigating the Amayar suicide pact.

You just restated the exact amount of information we know about Alviarin's disappearance. That Mesaana sent her on Tremalking for a full month, and we are never told why. Yes, We already know that Mesaana sent her on Tremalking for a full month. The problem is, we have no idea what the mission was, and considering how remote and irrelevant Tremalking is - it's not even possible to make an educated guess as to what her mission could have been. This is a problem.

 

the DO just might find a use for a channeling DF that can command Shadowspawn

She can't command Shadospawn, they just won't hurt her. That's what we learn from RJ's answer, because something as irrelevant as the purpose and workings of a magical mark hitherto unprecedented in the series, given in the middle of a very dramatic scene by an ominous presence that looks like the primary antagonist's own will given flesh, is clearly not worth the reader's attention. Please tell me exactly in what way the random bare-breasted Windfinder we'll never see again after her introduction raised her left eyebrow and folded her arms under her breasts.

[thisguy]

As to the OP, speculation on Alvi's trip to the islands seems irrationally limited in this thread. Undoubtedly, she was sent for a purpose. A mission if you will. A mission that required a month to complete. By a channeler in service to the DO. A channeler with the DO's mark requiring Shadowspawn obedience. One might conclude Alvi's jaunt served more of a purpose than instigating the Amayar suicide pact.

You just restated the exact amount of information we know about Alviarin's disappearance. That Mesaana sent her on Tremalking for a full month, and we are never told why. Yes, We already know that Mesaana sent her on Tremalking for a full month. The problem is, we have no idea what the mission was, and considering how remote and irrelevant Tremalking is - it's not even possible to make an educated guess as to what her mission could have been. This is a problem.

 

the DO just might find a use for a channeling DF that can command Shadowspawn

She can't command Shadospawn, they just won't hurt her. That's what we learn from RJ's answer, because something as irrelevant as the purpose and workings of a magical mark hereby unprecedented in the series, given in the middle of a very dramatic scene by an ominous presence that looks like the primary antagonist's own will given flesh, is clearly not worth the reader's attention. Please tell me exactly in what way the random bare-breasted Windfinder we'll never see again after her introduction raised her left eyebrow and folded her arms under her breasts.

lol

[XoMeltdownoX]

Does anyone know how long Alviarin has been head of the BA?

[Maleshub]

I would guess something like 20 years if she took over right after the one that Ishmael killed.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I would guess something like 20 years if she took over right after the one that Ishmael killed.

That one was killed for ordering the death of the Amyrlin right? Ok I kind of remember now. My budding theory just got squashed.

[Maleshub]

I would guess something like 20 years if she took over right after the one that Ishmael killed.

That one was killed for ordering the death of the Amyrlin right? Ok I kind of remember now. My budding theory just got squashed.

 

Yeah, the BA head killed was called Jarna something .... I don't know if anyone else headed the BA between Jarna and Alviarin; but I am assuming that no one did since Alviarin was so effective.

[Suttree]

I would guess something like 20 years if she took over right after the one that Ishmael killed.

That one was killed for ordering the death of the Amyrlin right? Ok I kind of remember now. My budding theory just got squashed.

 

Yeah, the BA head killed was called Jarna something .... I don't know if anyone else headed the BA between Jarna and Alviarin; but I am assuming that no one did since Alviarin was so effective.

 

Jarna Malari. She had Tamra questioned and killed and then sent the BA on a killing spree againt lucky men hoping to catch the DR. Ishy learned about that second part and tortured her to death in that mystery terangreal.

[Luckers]

As to the OP, speculation on Alvi's trip to the islands seems irrationally limited in this thread. Undoubtedly, she was sent for a purpose. A mission if you will. A mission that required a month to complete. By a channeler in service to the DO. A channeler with the DO's mark requiring Shadowspawn obedience. One might conclude Alvi's jaunt served more of a purpose than instigating the Amayar suicide pact.

You just restated the exact amount of information we know about Alviarin's disappearance. That Mesaana sent her on Tremalking for a full month, and we are never told why. Yes, We already know that Mesaana sent her on Tremalking for a full month. The problem is, we have no idea what the mission was, and considering how remote and irrelevant Tremalking is - it's not even possible to make an educated guess as to what her mission could have been. This is a problem.

 

Why?

 

The problem here, Glyph, is that you're not illuminating 'problems' with RJ's writing, you're illuminating things you don't like about RJ's writing. And that's fine, to each there own--but they are not problems. Because a problem has to be a mistake in the writing--for example, in tEotW with the repeated scene that was supposedly a failed attempt at a flashback on the way to Caemlyn--that's a problem.

 

But RJ having Mesaana send Alviarin on a mission and not letting us in on the specifics? That's an intentional stylistic choice. One you don't have to like--for myself I like it just fine. It lends to the realism of the piece by showing life goes on even off screen, helping to inform the sense of a real three dimensional world. I didn't, and don't, have the slightest issue with it--nor do I with the vast majority of stylistic points that you've raised in this thread and others.

 

You don't like them, that's fine. But there is nothing wrong with them from a literary sense. You personally may not have enjoyed them, maybe you prefer stories were everything gets laid out in capital letters for the reader, and nothing that's not directly useful to the plot makes it into the book--as I said, to each their own.

[FanoLan]

As to the OP, speculation on Alvi's trip to the islands seems irrationally limited in this thread. Undoubtedly, she was sent for a purpose. A mission if you will. A mission that required a month to complete. By a channeler in service to the DO. A channeler with the DO's mark requiring Shadowspawn obedience. One might conclude Alvi's jaunt served more of a purpose than instigating the Amayar suicide pact.

You just restated the exact amount of information we know about Alviarin's disappearance. That Mesaana sent her on Tremalking for a full month, and we are never told why. Yes, We already know that Mesaana sent her on Tremalking for a full month. The problem is, we have no idea what the mission was, and considering how remote and irrelevant Tremalking is - it's not even possible to make an educated guess as to what her mission could have been. This is a problem.

 

the DO just might find a use for a channeling DF that can command Shadowspawn

She can't command Shadospawn, they just won't hurt her. That's what we learn from RJ's answer, because something as irrelevant as the purpose and workings of a magical mark hitherto unprecedented in the series, given in the middle of a very dramatic scene by an ominous presence that looks like the primary antagonist's own will given flesh, is clearly not worth the reader's attention. Please tell me exactly in what way the random bare-breasted Windfinder we'll never see again after her introduction raised her left eyebrow and folded her arms under her breasts.

 

Yeah, I am far from an expert on any material/quotes that exist outside the text. Must have missed it the first time through since I skipped the majority of your posts. You seem very angry.

 

Realistically, the quote by RJ says Shadowspawn will not obey Alvi the same as they would one of the Forsaken. He does not say they would not obey her at all. Hard to believe no dark forces will hit the southern flank of the lightsiders and at this point, it seems feasible Alvi is in the mix re: preparation. The readers have been kept in the dark, but that shouldn't preclude some informed speculation based on our exposure to the rest of the series.

[Cybertrolloc]

Alviarin also visited SL, why not assume her month-long mission was there? Well I have the MMPB release, there could always be something changed.

 

It's in CoT, so whatever boring thing she did can't have been worse than the later Perrin chapters...but it's entirely possible that she could have done something successfully that was made pointless later or have been unsuccessful at what she was trying to do. Also states that she's done other tasks for Messy, no speculation on what those could be? ;)

[Glyphwright]

Why?

Because it stretches out the suspension of disbelief, when you have random things happen for no reason and with no explanation. Because RJ has time and space in the book to devote to every goddamn bit of minutia, who squinted where, who sighed and who snorted, what color dresses the random circus performer wore - but when it comes to events, battles, and useful facts - he either crumples them as much as possible to get back to the minutia and soap opera-level romantic woes, or simply skips the explanation altogether.

 

But RJ having Mesaana send Alviarin on a mission and not letting us in on the specifics? That's an intentional stylistic choice. One you don't have to like--for myself I like it just fine. It lends to the realism of the piece by showing life goes on even off screen

It's not that he didn't let us on the specifics. He didn't let us on the generalities either. We know absolutely nothing about why an important character was removed from her position, thus leading to major failures and change in position. All it does is shows that the author freely and wantonly treats his characters like lifeless dolls and plot devices, placing them wherever he feels like at the moment, if there's no logical reason for it. If this is what you call lending realism, then I am certainly baffled at your taste in fiction. Again, there's no realistic reason for RJ not to tell us where Alviarin spent the last month. The chapter was from her point of view, she just returned to the Tower, it's only expected for her to mention the task she completed in her thoughts. And yet, he simply never tells us. This is intentionally keeping the reader in the dark, and feels like someone dangling a carrot in front of your face to make you keep reading. How does this show that life happens even off screen?

 

You personally may not have enjoyed them, maybe you prefer stories were everything gets laid out in capital letters for the reader, and nothing that's not directly useful to the plot makes it into the book--as I said, to each their own

I prefer stories which don't feel like the author playing with cardboard cut-out action figures, and at some point just says "well, now I'll put Alviarin back in the drawer and take her out when I feel like it again".

 

Realistically, the quote by RJ says Shadowspawn will not obey Alvi the same as they would one of the Forsaken. He does not say they would not obey her at all

 

The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

It doesn't take long to realize that you're mistaken. He's clearly saying here "Shadowspawn will not obey Alviarin, whereas they will obey the Forsaken". This doesn't mean they will obey her to a lesser degree, the quote says "Shadospawn will obey the Forsaken, they will not obey Alviarin at all".

[Clouded]

Because it stretches out the suspension of disbelief, when you have random things happen for no reason and with no explanation. Because RJ has time and space in the book to devote to every goddamn bit of minutia, who squinted where, who sighed and who snorted, what color dresses the random circus performer wore - but when it comes to events, battles, and useful facts - he either crumples them as much as possible to get back to the minutia and soap opera-level romantic woes, or simply skips the explanation altogether.

 

It's not that he didn't let us on the specifics. He didn't let us on the generalities either. We know absolutely nothing about why an important character was removed from her position, thus leading to major failures and change in position. All it does is shows that the author freely and wantonly treats his characters like lifeless dolls and plot devices, placing them wherever he feels like at the moment, if there's no logical reason for it. If this is what you call lending realism, then I am certainly baffled at your taste in fiction. Again, there's no realistic reason for RJ not to tell us where Alviarin spent the last month. The chapter was from her point of view, she just returned to the Tower, it's only expected for her to mention the task she completed in her thoughts. And yet, he simply never tells us. This is intentionally keeping the reader in the dark, and feels like someone dangling a carrot in front of your face to make you keep reading. How does this show that life happens even off screen?

 

I prefer stories which don't feel like the author playing with cardboard cut-out action figures, and at some point just says "well, now I'll put Alviarin back in the drawer and take her out when I feel like it again".

 

It doesn't take long to realize that you're mistaken. He's clearly saying here "Shadowspawn will not obey Alviarin, whereas they will obey the Forsaken". This doesn't mean they will obey her to a lesser degree, the quote says "Shadospawn will obey the Forsaken, they will not obey Alviarin at all".

 

The theme I've gathered from your argument is that you are frustrated that Alviarin is used to go to Tremalking, without rhyme or reason. You say it makes no logical sense plot-wise, because she was head of the BA and manipulating Elaida. Why would they use her? You then use this to call out RJ's style of writing. You say it is a poor use of characters, arguing that it comes off as a situation where the creator needed someone to go to Tremalking, so he grabbed a character arbitrarily, and sent them there. You claim it feels jarring and "ruins your sense of disbelief". Is this correct?

 

First, your complaints are exactly the same as Alviarin's. She is incredibly frustrated as to why she was chosen to go to Tremalking. And you are correct that it makes no logical sense to use her, from her point of view. She was in a position of great power, and had the white tower dancing to her strings. But, what we've learned long ago, is that the DO and Forsaken have long had their own goals in mind, and their own reasoning behind decisions in a plan. Logically, it was confounding as to why the Dark One and the Forsaken did not just kill Rand in books 6-8. It isn't until we see Moridin playing Sha'rah that we understand it is one big gamble on the Dragon's soul. Just because we do not see the logic behind a decision, does not mean that no one does.

 

Character-wise, I have no problem with Alviarin being used to go to Tremalking and returning without explicitly thinking of her mission. She has no reason to think of her mission. It just happened, so recalling it makes no sense. On the other hand, her frustrations at being used make sense. She just returned to the tower and is reminded of her annoyance.

 

Stylistically, I also have no problem with Alviarin being used to go to Tremalking. In this series, we have seen many times where information is provided early that we should keep an eye on. For example, take the case when Perrin and crew meet the Aiel, Urien. Urien claims to be looking for He Who Comes With the Dawn. That information doesn't pay off until 2 books later. We have also seen many times where suspicions prove to be Red Herrings, and nothing results from it. Whether the Alviarin's trip turns out to be Chekov's Gun or a Red Herring doesn't matter, the excitement is in the suspicion.

[Glyphwright]

Whether the Alviarin's trip turns out to be Chekov's Gun or a Red Herring doesn't matter

No, this is what matters. This is what separates poor writing from good writing, a strained and ass-pulled plot from a logical and well-thought out plot. One red herring after another, one built-up plotline that doesn't lead anywhere after another, one wall of text describing minutia and irrelevances after another, one mysterious letter that isn't opened until seventeen books later. This is what makes WoT an endless soap opera series of the fantasy genre. You can derive excitement from a poorly written series... if you lack any taste, that is. That doesn't raise its quality, though.

 

She has no reason to think of her mission. It just happened, so recalling it makes no sense

Of course she had reason to think of her mission. It just happened, it's very fresh in the memory, it took a long time to complete, it tore her away from her position of power, recalling it seconds after its completion makes perfect sense, both from the character's point of view, and from the intentions of the author that doesn't try to mystify his reader. I can understand someone who simply isn't bothered by the lack of exposition in Alviarin's PoV, but to claim that having her mention the nature of her mission in her own thoughts would make no sense? Please, this is blatant fanboyism and blindness towards the objective flaws of the series.

[Sid]

The only time I've gotten the feeling of cardboard cutout action figures from WoT is in the last two books, when BS doesn't know what to do with minor characters and gives them nothing to do. As far as RJ's minutia, it's what keeps those characters from being cardboard cutouts. Juilin Sandar is a Tarien thief-catcher. He reacts to certain things in certain ways. Beslan is/was an Ebou Dari prince. His personality and background are different and he reacts differently to things. Stuff that makes Juilin gasp in shock are things Beslan might only raise an eyebrow at. When you read it, you're reminded of who these three dimensional people are.

 

Alviarin's trip to Tremalking might be something important she doesn't understand, or something as silly as Mesaana thinking she's getting too uppity and sending her on a fool's errand to teach her a lesson, as darkfriends are wont to do. She probably didn't know the exact nature of Alviarin and Elaida's relationship, and probably didn't care either. Mesaana's been safe in the tower for some time now, and likely thought her position very nearly untouchable. She didn't even bother going to the Cleansing. Therefore SH decided to set her straight.

 

Lower level darkfriends dislike following orders they don't understand, but they do it anyway out of fear. Alviarin's reactions and thoughts fall in line perfectly with what past DF pov's have shown.