Daved Hanlon and Lady Shiaine

[thisguy]

I should probably put this in that other thread, but after reading this one, I picture Daved Hanlon to look like David Hasselhoff

[Neophyte]

I have a thought, we know the waygate at Caemlyn is used to attack...what about the one at TV, could be nasty for the AS if the SC come via gateways as the Shadow comes in the waygate

 

Yes, especially since Egwene and a significant portion of her support are probably at the Field of Merrilor. In another thread I sort of wondered aloud if the Seanchan encountering Shadowspawn in Tar Valon would make Fortuona more or less likely to ally with the Aes Sedai - I'm still not 100% sure which way she'd come down on that.

[Suttree]

I have a thought, we know the waygate at Caemlyn is used to attack...what about the one at TV, could be nasty for the AS if the SC come via gateways as the Shadow comes in the waygate

 

Yes, especially since Egwene and a significant portion of her support are probably at the Field of Merrilor. In another thread I sort of wondered aloud if the Seanchan encountering Shadowspawn in Tar Valon would make Fortuona more or less likely to ally with the Aes Sedai - I'm still not 100% sure which way she'd come down on that.

 

You would think the AS would have have figured something out for that. Would have been a major issue in the Trolloc Wars if not.

[Neophyte]

I have a thought, we know the waygate at Caemlyn is used to attack...what about the one at TV, could be nasty for the AS if the SC come via gateways as the Shadow comes in the waygate

 

Yes, especially since Egwene and a significant portion of her support are probably at the Field of Merrilor. In another thread I sort of wondered aloud if the Seanchan encountering Shadowspawn in Tar Valon would make Fortuona more or less likely to ally with the Aes Sedai - I'm still not 100% sure which way she'd come down on that.

 

You would think the AS would have have figured something out for that. Would have been a major issue in the Trolloc Wars if not.

 

Before they were corrupted, the Ways held traps specifically designed for Shadowspawn. Some of these were apparently still semi-functional even up to the time of the main series, but during the Trolloc Wars, when the Ways were still relatively new and uncorrupted (the major corruption didn't begin until around the War of the Hundred Years) the traps would have been even more effective.

 

The Ways didn't represent a viable path for large numbers of Shadowspawn until relatively recently. At first there were the traps that were designed in, and then Machin Shin was as dangerous to Shadowspawn as to regular folks. Some accommodation with the Black Wind, or other very recent unknown change, appears to have made them safer for Shadowspawn. So, the Aes Sedai would not have needed any real protective measures until now.

 

Rand al'Thor is really the only one without an excuse for dealing with this. He was clearly aware of the problem, and didn't really take sufficiently effective measures. To be fair, he was kind of busy going mad and cleansing the taint and dealing with traitors and Darkfriends and assassins and the rest - it's not like he's just been lazy. But he did drop the ball here, somewhat.

[TristanWebb]

I disagree. The Ogier are the ones who are to blame. Rand sent emissaries to them that were flat out ignored. The wards and traps he put on the gates he knew about could be broken by a forsaken and guarding the waygates with soldiers was working fine until Elayne came along and put all the guards on the walls.

[thisguy]

Rand should have balefired the waygates out of existence.

[Suttree]

I have a thought, we know the waygate at Caemlyn is used to attack...what about the one at TV, could be nasty for the AS if the SC come via gateways as the Shadow comes in the waygate

 

Yes, especially since Egwene and a significant portion of her support are probably at the Field of Merrilor. In another thread I sort of wondered aloud if the Seanchan encountering Shadowspawn in Tar Valon would make Fortuona more or less likely to ally with the Aes Sedai - I'm still not 100% sure which way she'd come down on that.

 

You would think the AS would have have figured something out for that. Would have been a major issue in the Trolloc Wars if not.

 

Before they were corrupted, the Ways held traps specifically designed for Shadowspawn. Some of these were apparently still semi-functional even up to the time of the main series, but during the Trolloc Wars, when the Ways were still relatively new and uncorrupted (the major corruption didn't begin until around the War of the Hundred Years) the traps would have been even more effective.

 

The Ways didn't represent a viable path for large numbers of Shadowspawn until relatively recently. At first there were the traps that were designed in, and then Machin Shin was as dangerous to Shadowspawn as to regular folks. Some accommodation with the Black Wind, or other very recent unknown change, appears to have made them safer for Shadowspawn. So, the Aes Sedai would not have needed any real protective measures until now.

 

Rand al'Thor is really the only one without an excuse for dealing with this. He was clearly aware of the problem, and didn't really take sufficiently effective measures. To be fair, he was kind of busy going mad and cleansing the taint and dealing with traitors and Darkfriends and assassins and the rest - it's not like he's just been lazy. But he did drop the ball here, somewhat.

 

Interesting. Somehow I've never been aware on the timing of that corruption. Know they have gotten worse recently but had it in my head it started much earlier. Thanks Neo!

[Neophyte]

I disagree. The Ogier are the ones who are to blame. Rand sent emissaries to them that were flat out ignored. The wards and traps he put on the gates he knew about could be broken by a forsaken and guarding the waygates with soldiers was working fine until Elayne came along and put all the guards on the walls.

 

Actually, the vast majority of the Ogier in the various stedding agreed. Only 9 or 10 out of 41 known stedding refused to listen, so 3/4 of them agreed to post guards.

 

You're right about the wards and traps though - they could all be gotten around. The only safe thing to do was to remove both Avendesora leaves so the gate would be permanently sealed and die.

 

 

Rand should have balefired the waygates out of existence.

 

Not necessary, and perhaps dangerous. Waygate react strangely to the Power, and ripping them open can have have unpredictable results. Balefiring one out of existence might have been fine - or it might have let Machin Shin out, ripping open a portal between the Ways and Randland. Waygates are gates in both directions - keeping the Ways and the regular world separated. Since Rand couldn't know for sure what would happen if he balefired one, and there is another safe alternative known, just taking out both leaves would have been the most prudent and effective course.

[thisguy]

I disagree. The Ogier are the ones who are to blame. Rand sent emissaries to them that were flat out ignored. The wards and traps he put on the gates he knew about could be broken by a forsaken and guarding the waygates with soldiers was working fine until Elayne came along and put all the guards on the walls.

 

Actually, the vast majority of the Ogier in the various stedding agreed. Only 9 or 10 out of 41 known stedding refused to listen, so 3/4 of them agreed to post guards.

 

You're right about the wards and traps though - they could all be gotten around. The only safe thing to do was to remove both Avendesora leaves so the gate would be permanently sealed and die.

 

 

Rand should have balefired the waygates out of existence.

 

Not necessary, and perhaps dangerous. Waygate react strangely to the Power, and ripping them open can have have unpredictable results. Balefiring one out of existence might have been fine - or it might have let Machin Shin out, ripping open a portal between the Ways and Randland. Waygates are gates in both directions - keeping the Ways and the regular world separated. Since Rand couldn't know for sure what would happen if he balefired one, and there is another safe alternative known, just taking out both leaves would have been the most prudent and effective course.

Yeah, the removal of the leaves would have been the safest option. Also, since the Ogier have the rod of growing - or whatever it's called - they should have done this and started over if they wanted waygates later.

[Maleshub]

From The Great Hunt we know that Stedding Tsofu is new, about 600 years old (about 300 years after the end of the War of the Hundred Years); and a Waygate was grown outside it. That is how I understood this quote:

 

TGH: A Message from the Dark

 

"How many of us could sneak onto Barthanes's grounds?" Verin said dismissively. "There are other Waygates. Stedding Tsofu lies not far from the city, south and east. It is a young stedding, rediscovered only perhaps six hundred years ago, but the Ogier Elders were still growing the Ways, then. Stedding Tsofu will have a Waygate. It is there and we will ride at first light."

[mike hunt's here]

I should probably put this in that other thread, but after reading this one, I picture Daved Hanlon to look like David Hasselhoff

 

 

I see it a little differently. Although I dont expect a lot of agreement here - John Rhys Davies? Although he normally plays good guys.

[Sid]

John Rhys-Davies as hatchet-faced Daved Hanlon.

 

I think you were right to expect little agreement. That is a really tough sell.

[mike hunt's here]

hatchet face = saggy face = fat droopy john rhys davies face? right? although body type maybe not so much.

 

I can't see the "hoff" as hatchet face.

[Sid]

Hm, I look up hatchet face on dictionary.com and it says:

 

hatchet face 

 

noun

a thin face with sharp features.

 

On the free medical dictionary it says:

hatchet face

The characteristic physiognomy of advanced myotonic dystrophy; the face is drawn and lugubrious, with hollowing of muscles around temples and jaws; eyes are 'hooded,' lower lip droops, and global weakness of facial muscles, causes sagging of lower face, accompanied by marked wasting of the neck muscles, especially the flexors, which imparts a 'swan-neck' appearance; HF may be seen in amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, Curschmann-Batten-Steiner syndrome

 

Thus, I can see why we have very different opinions of what the man looked like. Yet, it seems that the rumors suggesting Doilin Mellar (Hanlon) could be the father of Elayne's child kind of suggest to me that he's the first definition rather than the second.

[TyphoonBlade]

I've been thinking about the plot lines AMOL will cover/resolve and started wondering what part these two will play in the last book.

 

Hanlon still has the duplicate medallion, and Shiaine seems pretty high ranking among dark friends.

 

I assume they are probably still in camelyn since they seemed aware of the impending attack, but I was wondering what you guys thought, will this get resolved in amol or is it one of those plot lines that isn't wrapped up?

 

I'm guessing they both had a part to play for the invasion; Hanlon might have done something with the mercenaries.

 

Yeah he probably played a part with the mercenaries, and now that I think about it those he was arsons he was commiting were probably also in preparation of the attack on caemlyn.

[Morsker]

You're right about the wards and traps though - they could all be gotten around. The only safe thing to do was to remove both Avendesora leaves so the gate would be permanently sealed and die.

We know that would break the door so it couldn't be opened again, but would it also destroy the portal? I think the portal would still work, since we saw Moiraine destroy a door completely in TEotW, but still ask for soliders to be sent to guard the portal.

[FarShainMael]

Did we ever find out what happened to the Shadar Logoth Waygate after the Cleansing?

[Neophyte]

You're right about the wards and traps though - they could all be gotten around. The only safe thing to do was to remove both Avendesora leaves so the gate would be permanently sealed and die.

We know that would break the door so it couldn't be opened again, but would it also destroy the portal? I think the portal would still work, since we saw Moiraine destroy a door completely in TEotW, but still ask for soliders to be sent to guard the portal.

 

Wow ... I had forgotten about that too - Moiraine cut her way out from the inside when the Avendesora leaf was missing. And when Loial talks about sealing the Manetheren gate in TSR ch 43 he explicitly says,

 

"The only means of opening the Gate again will be for the Elders to bring the Talisman of Growing. Though I suppose an Aes Sedai could cut a hole in it."

 

It seems then that there is no completely foolproof way to seal a Waygate. Still, I should think that removing the leaves would be a deterrent - and should have been done in combination with putting inverted or reversed traps around it, and posting guards as well. If it is not possible to make the gates completely secure, then at the very least they should have put as many obstacles as possible in place.

 

Rand could have actually destroyed them using the Choedan Kal, I suppose, but he probably didn't actually have time for that. What a mess.

 

 

Did we ever find out what happened to the Shadar Logoth Waygate after the Cleansing?

 

The Shadar Logoth Waygate was within the city itself, and the entire and everything in it was obliterated. I don't think even a Waygate could withstand the forces in play at the cleansing, so that one, at least, seems to be well and truly gone.

[FarShainMael]

You'r probably right.. but I have this funny feeling that the entry point into the Ways may have survived, since the Ways generally are in a different 'space' - a region like Skim-space, perhaps. The actual structure that the entry point was attached to was certainly destroyed. But maybe there still remains a region hanging in mid-air above the crater that could be used as an entrance if you could reach it. Or possibly, if you forcibly detach a Waygate like that, perhaps the entire Way system will begin to unravel like a holey sock!

[Sid]

Care for the Living[/i]']"I did not mean destroy, exactly." Loial leaned on his long-handled axe. "A Waygate was destroyed once, less than five hundred years after the Breaking, according to Damelle, daughter of Ala daughter of Soferra, because the Gate was near a stedding that had fallen to the Blight. There are two or three Gates lost in the Blight as it is. But she wrote that it was very difficult, and required thirteen Aes Sedai working together with a sa'angreal. Another attempt she wrote of, by only nine, during the Trolloc Wars, damaged the Gate in such a way that the Aes Sedai were pulled into-" He cut off, ears writtling with embarrassment, and knuckled his wide nose. Everyone was staring at him, even Verin and the Aiel. "I do let myself be carried away, sometimes. The Waygate. Yes. I cannot destroy it, but if I remove both Avendesora leaves completely, they will die." He grimaced that the thought. "The only means of opening the Gate again will be for the Elders to bring the Talisman of Growing. Thought I suppose an Aes Sedai could cut a hole in it."

 

Just to expand on the earlier quote.

 

Pulled into.... man I wish he'd finished that sentence.

So the leaves will die if he removes them for too long, but the doorway is still there to be forcibly cut through. The leaves control the door only, not the entry, which is some kind of permanent link to wherever the Ways actually are. It's not a permanent gateway, since Shadowspawn can pass through it safely.... it's a different thing left unexplained?

 

 

I burst out laughing at FarShainMael's post, imagining a line of Trollocs emerging from the gateway at SL one at a time, getting totally messed up by whatever wards were around it (like a fly hitting a bug zapper), and then falling hundreds of feet to the ground below to form an ever increasing pile.

[FarShainMael]

Have you ever played Lemmings, by any chance....................

[Neophyte]

LOL ... I have played Lemmings ... for probably too many hours.

 

And that is an interesting idea ... that the inter-dimensional fold or whatever we should call the essence of the Waygate that actually makes the transition between spacetimes is still hanging at what used to be ground level over Lake Logoth ... I don't think its true, mind you - if thirteen regular Aes Sedai can actually destroy a Waygate, according to Loial, with a relatively normal sa'angreal, then the amounts of Power flowing through the Choedan Kal and the concentrated cancellation of the Dark One and Shadar Logoth taint should have been more than sufficient to obliterate one.

 

But hey, who knows? Its not like its been done before ...

[thisguy]

Have you ever played Lemmings, by any chance....................

Holy crap! I haven't thought about Lemmings in a million years!!!