Seanchan and the AoL

[b3arz3rg3r]

It was as purely Power driven as possible. So far we haven't heard of a single piece of advanced technology which worked without the One Power. Even lightbulbs are powered with the One Power and not electricity.

 

As for how channelling might dissappear, we already know that the percentage of channellers has been decreasing since the AOL as well as the average strength of the channellers. If that trend continues the trait of being able to touch the One Power may disappear until the Wheel turns for it to reappear. Or another possibility might be that the Stedding grow until they cover the entire world.

 

It's only decreasing in Randland. The Seanchan and Shara (Maybe even the Seafolk) have higher numbers. Plus if they decreasd a little, it's mostly due to the backlash making men go insane and removing them from the gene pool (However we've discussed this pretty extensively and come to the conclusion that his idea about genetics and how culling works is extremely flawed and so we'll just take him at his face value).

 

Did you read the BWB? Science worked with the OP to create the marvels. It started out with science, and they learned to mix the two. The OP is just a source of energy in most cases.

 

What makes you think that the decrease doesn't apply to Seanchan and Shara? From what we can see Damane don't ever get children and male channellers are hunted down and in Shara the channellers are inbred from what I can recall, only being allowed to marry one another. Neither practice sounds likely to keep numbers higher than in Randland.

 

I read the BWB- well a couple of years ago- but to me the evidence is quite clear. Their technology was all OP driven. That's why there was no electricity, no ICE, no computers etc. Their science was focussed on how to make the OP do something and they apparently never even considered how to do anything without the OP. They researched the OP in a scientific manner just like we research the real world.

[Suttree]

It was as purely Power driven as possible. So far we haven't heard of a single piece of advanced technology which worked without the One Power. Even lightbulbs are powered with the One Power and not electricity.

 

As for how channelling might dissappear, we already know that the percentage of channellers has been decreasing since the AOL as well as the average strength of the channellers. If that trend continues the trait of being able to touch the One Power may disappear until the Wheel turns for it to reappear. Or another possibility might be that the Stedding grow until they cover the entire world.

 

It's only decreasing in Randland. The Seanchan and Shara (Maybe even the Seafolk) have higher numbers. Plus if they decreasd a little, it's mostly due to the backlash making men go insane and removing them from the gene pool (However we've discussed this pretty extensively and come to the conclusion that his idea about genetics and how culling works is extremely flawed and so we'll just take him at his face value).

 

Did you read the BWB? Science worked with the OP to create the marvels. It started out with science, and they learned to mix the two. The OP is just a source of energy in most cases.

 

What makes you think that the decrease doesn't apply to Seanchan and Shara? From what we can see Damane don't ever get children and male channellers are hunted down and in Shara the channellers are inbred from what I can recall, only being allowed to marry one another. Neither practice sounds likely to keep numbers higher than in Randland.

 

I read the BWB- well a couple of years ago- but to me the evidence is quite clear. Their technology was all OP driven. That's why there was no electricity, no ICE, no computers etc. Their science was focussed on how to make the OP do something and they apparently never even considered how to do anything without the OP. They researched the OP in a scientific manner just like we research the real world.

 

Never replied to the earlier post. Guess thats why we have the Eggy/AS rule here at DM ;)

 

As for Shara not sure if it was mentioned but they essentially use the males as breeding stock and then kill them at a certain age

 

they cease being AS after Eggyms mandate. That, as you seem to be fond of saying is a legal loophole. Just because she applied it retroactively, does not mean that 1 year before she was amyrlin they were not AS. It isn't balefire. in the books we see AS still consider the BA to be part of the other ajah as well. Face it, they are still AS... or were until Eggy kicked them out.

 

Actually as Toot pointed out in the post before Mr Ares your example was nothing but a technicality.

 

This is nothing but a technicality. AS are being handed responsibility because they are upholding people to be innocent until proven guilty. It's not as though the Black Ajah is sanctioned by the Tower, so by this argument the only way around it would be to kick everyone out and start over.

 

And besides, whether the BA are still AS because they have yet to be discovered is negligible since they have sworn off all their oaths to the light and consider themselves to have a seperate allegiance. The AS have no evidence to kick certain people, but the BA has all the knowledge necessary to know that their "allegiance" to the tower is nothing but a lie to further an ill agenda.

 

Pay attention short ;) Just because AS believe them to be AS does not make it true. An athlete who cheats in the Olympics is stripped of all his titles going back to when he cheated. Not when he is caught. Just as an athlete had lied about the and given up the "spirit" of competition, the BA has given up on the "spirit" of AS, it matters little what they are called in name by others. As thisguy admitted earlier which should have ended the discussion.

 

That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO.

 

Now short, answer me this question in truth. Are you what people perceive you to be, no matter how much you lie and craft a false image or are you what you know yourself truly to be? The BA is its own distinct organization with a purpose counter to that of the WT and it's members are defined by their service to the Shadow.

[Vardar]

What makes you think that the decrease doesn't apply to Seanchan and Shara? From what we can see Damane don't ever get children and male channellers are hunted down and in Shara the channellers are inbred from what I can recall, only being allowed to marry one another. Neither practice sounds likely to keep numbers higher than in Randland.

 

I read the BWB- well a couple of years ago- but to me the evidence is quite clear. Their technology was all OP driven. That's why there was no electricity, no ICE, no computers etc. Their science was focussed on how to make the OP do something and they apparently never even considered how to do anything without the OP. They researched the OP in a scientific manner just like we research the real world.

 

RJ had a quote discussing how Seanchan and Shara had much higher populations of channelers, closer to the actual AOL numbers. The reason given for this was Suldam staying in the breeding pool, and the Shara channelers interbreeding only among themselves. (again, all evidence suggests this makes 0 sense at all and wouldn't lower the numbers in Randland by any noticable amount).

 

I'm pretty certain they discussing science and OP mixing to create the Tech. I have it on my Ipad, I'll search thru it today.

[Mulk]

For the Seanchan, the explanation makes sense (at least to me) to an extent - sul'dam being far more numerous than damane and being free to marry and have kids, they would be producing a larger number of possible channelers.

 

For Shara, I'm not sure. We don't know how many kids the Ayyad have - we just know any male product of any Ayyad womb is killed prior to..I think it was his 21st birthday? They're basically breeding stock and nothing more. And any channeler found in the at-large population is added to the pool of Ayyad, and since they only breed with other Ayyad, you would think that the resulting percentage of channelers is quite a bit higher than it would be in the general populace, so it then comes down to how often an Ayyad women tries to become pregnant. If they each have a fair number of children (3 or more at the very least) then the population of channelers is probably growing there.

 

For Randland, the Aes Sedai attempt (and we don't know how successfully - just that it is less than 100%, just based on what has gone on in the Two Rivers) to find every woman who can channel and then all who can become Aes Sedai do. We do not know for certain, but it's a reasonable assumption that no living Aes Sedai have any children (or if there are any, their numbers are so small they are irrelevant) and that all of those channelers have effectively removed themselves from the gene pool. We know a large number of those women who failed to make it all the way to AS became the Kin in and around Ebou Dar - we don't know how many of them have families and children; given the advanced ages of the Knitting Circle, I think it likely not many have any living children, but that's just opinion, not truth. But given that the Kinswomen slowed just as the AS do and given the resultant effect on their life span, I think it fairly likely that many (maybe even most) either did not have children or get married because they didn't want to deal with outliving their husbands and children to such an extreme. And therein lies the key difference between Randland and Seanchan non-sparkers - sul'dam do not slow, and therefore still maintain similar lifespans to their husbands and children and are as a result more likely to marry and bear children than equivalent TRAINED non-sparkers in Randland.

 

The only AS or former AS we know for sure has had any significant family life aside from Elayne, whose kids are still in utero, is the former Brown Martine Janata - further, the only other channeler we know for sure has any children is Morgase Trakand, whose ability is so negligible she's not likely to have any hugely significant increase to her lifespan and who is a queen in any case, who needs to bear children to ensure succession. Therefore it's likely in Randland that the numbers have been dropping just as stated by RJ - they train every channeler they can find, and most of those have wildly increased lifespans that likely result in a much smaller numbers of family due to unwillingness to outlive children and spouses to such an extent. Contrast that with the Seanchan, who train no one but damane (and thus they only remove the smaller number of sparkers from the pool). Also contrast that with the Aiel, who embrace the pain and also the duty of life in a way uncommon on the west side of the Dragonwall, and thus do not remove their channelers from the pool, save for sparking males. Against that you also have the Sharans, whose percentage of channelers seems to be totally dependent on how often the female Ayyad get pregnant, as all channelers and children of channelers breed within their own lines. Apparently the gene pool is broad enough they don't have the other issues you normally get with inbreeding, but that's a side issue. If they produce children at similar or greater rates than the general populace, then it follows that their percentage of channelers has been stable or maybe even increasing slightly over the past however long - and the Ayyad don't remove their male sparkers from the pool. They kill all males by a certain age, but they all have (apparently) multiple opportunities to pass on their genes.

 

Just my take, but it seems to me that RJ isn't out of line by saying what he said, based on what we know of how those genetics work and what we know of the behaviors of channelers and possible channelers in each of the major societies we see.

[shortkut]

It was as purely Power driven as possible. So far we haven't heard of a single piece of advanced technology which worked without the One Power. Even lightbulbs are powered with the One Power and not electricity.

 

As for how channelling might dissappear, we already know that the percentage of channellers has been decreasing since the AOL as well as the average strength of the channellers. If that trend continues the trait of being able to touch the One Power may disappear until the Wheel turns for it to reappear. Or another possibility might be that the Stedding grow until they cover the entire world.

 

It's only decreasing in Randland. The Seanchan and Shara (Maybe even the Seafolk) have higher numbers. Plus if they decreasd a little, it's mostly due to the backlash making men go insane and removing them from the gene pool (However we've discussed this pretty extensively and come to the conclusion that his idea about genetics and how culling works is extremely flawed and so we'll just take him at his face value).

 

Did you read the BWB? Science worked with the OP to create the marvels. It started out with science, and they learned to mix the two. The OP is just a source of energy in most cases.

 

What makes you think that the decrease doesn't apply to Seanchan and Shara? From what we can see Damane don't ever get children and male channellers are hunted down and in Shara the channellers are inbred from what I can recall, only being allowed to marry one another. Neither practice sounds likely to keep numbers higher than in Randland.

 

I read the BWB- well a couple of years ago- but to me the evidence is quite clear. Their technology was all OP driven. That's why there was no electricity, no ICE, no computers etc. Their science was focussed on how to make the OP do something and they apparently never even considered how to do anything without the OP. They researched the OP in a scientific manner just like we research the real world.

 

Never replied to the earlier post. Guess thats why we have the Eggy/AS rule here at DM ;)

 

As for Shara not sure if it was mentioned but they essentially use the males as breeding stock and then kill them at a certain age

 

they cease being AS after Eggyms mandate. That, as you seem to be fond of saying is a legal loophole. Just because she applied it retroactively, does not mean that 1 year before she was amyrlin they were not AS. It isn't balefire. in the books we see AS still consider the BA to be part of the other ajah as well. Face it, they are still AS... or were until Eggy kicked them out.

 

Actually as Toot pointed out in the post before Mr Ares your example was nothing but a technicality.

 

This is nothing but a technicality. AS are being handed responsibility because they are upholding people to be innocent until proven guilty. It's not as though the Black Ajah is sanctioned by the Tower, so by this argument the only way around it would be to kick everyone out and start over.

 

And besides, whether the BA are still AS because they have yet to be discovered is negligible since they have sworn off all their oaths to the light and consider themselves to have a seperate allegiance. The AS have no evidence to kick certain people, but the BA has all the knowledge necessary to know that their "allegiance" to the tower is nothing but a lie to further an ill agenda.

 

Pay attention short ;) Just because AS believe them to be AS does not make it true. An athlete who cheats in the Olympics is stripped of all his titles going back to when he cheated. Not when he is caught. Just as an athlete had lied about the and given up the "spirit" of competition, the BA has given up on the "spirit" of AS, it matters little what they are called in name by others. As thisguy admitted earlier which should have ended the discussion.

 

That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO.

 

Now short, answer me this question in truth. Are you what people perceive you to be, no matter how much you lie and craft a false image or are you what you know yourself truly to be? The BA is its own distinct organization with a purpose counter to that of the WT and it's members are defined by their service to the Shadow.

you donm understand what happens in the olympics when someone gets caught cheating. they lose their medals like you said, but they are still acknowledged to have competed and been athletes at the time the events took place. the same is true for the BA. using your own example, with extra details, you helped prove both my point and the cop analogy. thanks :D

 

it is implied that the BA see themselves as AS. they define themselves as the black ajah.an ajah is a group of AS with a common view inside the WT. it just so happens their view is in favor of the DO. if they considered themselves no AS, they had more than enough members to start their own tower openly and still train women

[Suttree]

]you donm understand what happens in the olympics when someone gets caught cheating. they lose their medals like you said, but they are still acknowledged to have competed and been athletes at the time the events took place. the same is true for the BA. using your own example, with extra details, you helped prove both my point and the cop analogy. thanks :D

 

I understand to even hold on to a thin thread of an argument you need to ignore 90% of a post and focus on splitting hairs. So to ask again...

 

As thisguy admitted earlier which should have ended the discussion.

 

That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO.

 

Now short, answer me this question in truth. Are you what people perceive you to be, no matter how much you lie and craft a false image or are you what you know yourself truly to be?

 

Do you not feel the need to respond to Toot either?

[shortkut]

check edit for your answer

[Knivy]

Even if they are not AS, being accepted as one and given the power resulting from that gives the tower responsibility for their actions. If I gave a random kid on the street my keys and he crashes it, I'm the one responsible for it.

 

And what is reality but another perception? ;)

[Suttree]

check edit for your answer

 

It is not implied in the slightest. They have a different mandate, serve the shadow instead of the light, have totally different oaths, and are working to subert AS from within. The very reason Ishy founded them was to have a secret organization targeting the WT from within. Setting up a rival organization and announcing themselves as DF's would bring the entire world down on them instantly. It is ludicrous to even make the suggestion that it would be a viable option.

And what is reality but another perception? ;)

 

That was quite good actually.

 

But Knivy no one has argued that the WT usn't responsbile for rooting them out. They most certainly are not to blaim for thei actions of them and the forsaken however.

[thisguy]

Even if they are not AS, being accepted as one and given the power resulting from that gives the tower responsibility for their actions. If I gave a random kid on the street my keys and he crashes it, I'm the one responsible for it.

 

And what is reality but another perception? ;)

Everything is perception. When the AS decide someone is ready to be raised to the shawl that is a matter of perception.

[Knivy]

Not the forsaken, but they are responsible for their actions when the BA is working with power the AS gave them.

 

Unintentionally helping the enemy does not change the fact that you helped them, or your responsibility for the mess.

[shortkut]

Not the forsaken, but they are responsible for their actions when the BA is working with power the AS gave them.

 

Unintentionally helping the enemy does not change the fact that you helped them, or your responsibility for the mess.

i tried saying things simply like this before, but the text fell on blind eyes.

 

the only organization that has a true mandate to fight the DO and DF are the WC. AS are there to bring stability to the world... and if there is time stop the DO. how many members of the WT do not seem to care about TG because they are focused on their own things? i remember it mentioned before, i think about the browns. are they not AS either?

[thisguy]

Not the forsaken, but they are responsible for their actions when the BA is working with power the AS gave them.

 

Unintentionally helping the enemy does not change the fact that you helped them, or your responsibility for the mess.

i tried saying things simply like this before, but the text fell on blind eyes.

 

the only organization that has a true mandate to fight the DO and DF are the WC. AS are there to bring stability to the world... and if there is time stop the DO. how many members of the WT do not seem to care about TG because they are focused on their own things? i remember it mentioned before, i think about the browns. are they not AS either?

And, some of the Reds would no doubt have stilled Rand or tried to control him at the very least. Kept him in a cage, shielded from the One Power, until the last battle.

 

Edit to add: By the way, very perceptive of you to see that the only organization mandated to fight for the light and root out darkfriends is the WC. I think RJ did this purposefully. The whole book plays on the fact that things aren't always what they appear to be.

[shortkut]

Not the forsaken, but they are responsible for their actions when the BA is working with power the AS gave them.

 

Unintentionally helping the enemy does not change the fact that you helped them, or your responsibility for the mess.

i tried saying things simply like this before, but the text fell on blind eyes.

 

the only organization that has a true mandate to fight the DO and DF are the WC. AS are there to bring stability to the world... and if there is time stop the DO. how many members of the WT do not seem to care about TG because they are focused on their own things? i remember it mentioned before, i think about the browns. are they not AS either?

And, some of the Reds would no doubt have stilled Rand or tried to control him at the very least. Kept him in a cage, shielded from the One Power, until the last battle.

 

Edit to add: By the way, very perceptive of you to see that the only organization mandated to fight for the light and root out darkfriends is the WC. I think RJ did this purposefully. The whole book plays on the fact that things aren't always what they appear to be.

be careful with that line of thought, it is only RJ's perspective.

[thisguy]

Not the forsaken, but they are responsible for their actions when the BA is working with power the AS gave them.

 

Unintentionally helping the enemy does not change the fact that you helped them, or your responsibility for the mess.

i tried saying things simply like this before, but the text fell on blind eyes.

 

the only organization that has a true mandate to fight the DO and DF are the WC. AS are there to bring stability to the world... and if there is time stop the DO. how many members of the WT do not seem to care about TG because they are focused on their own things? i remember it mentioned before, i think about the browns. are they not AS either?

And, some of the Reds would no doubt have stilled Rand or tried to control him at the very least. Kept him in a cage, shielded from the One Power, until the last battle.

 

Edit to add: By the way, very perceptive of you to see that the only organization mandated to fight for the light and root out darkfriends is the WC. I think RJ did this purposefully. The whole book plays on the fact that things aren't always what they appear to be.

be careful with that line of thought, it is only RJ's perspective.

lol... is that sarcasm. It's fine with me if it is - I just am sometimes unsure on the internet - tone can be lost in text.

[Vardar]

For the Seanchan, the explanation makes sense (at least to me) to an extent - sul'dam being far more numerous than damane and being free to marry and have kids, they would be producing a larger number of possible channelers.

 

For Shara, I'm not sure. We don't know how many kids the Ayyad have - we just know any male product of any Ayyad womb is killed prior to..I think it was his 21st birthday? They're basically breeding stock and nothing more. And any channeler found in the at-large population is added to the pool of Ayyad, and since they only breed with other Ayyad, you would think that the resulting percentage of channelers is quite a bit higher than it would be in the general populace, so it then comes down to how often an Ayyad women tries to become pregnant. If they each have a fair number of children (3 or more at the very least) then the population of channelers is probably growing there.

 

For Randland, the Aes Sedai attempt (and we don't know how successfully - just that it is less than 100%, just based on what has gone on in the Two Rivers) to find every woman who can channel and then all who can become Aes Sedai do. We do not know for certain, but it's a reasonable assumption that no living Aes Sedai have any children (or if there are any, their numbers are so small they are irrelevant) and that all of those channelers have effectively removed themselves from the gene pool. We know a large number of those women who failed to make it all the way to AS became the Kin in and around Ebou Dar - we don't know how many of them have families and children; given the advanced ages of the Knitting Circle, I think it likely not many have any living children, but that's just opinion, not truth. But given that the Kinswomen slowed just as the AS do and given the resultant effect on their life span, I think it fairly likely that many (maybe even most) either did not have children or get married because they didn't want to deal with outliving their husbands and children to such an extreme. And therein lies the key difference between Randland and Seanchan non-sparkers - sul'dam do not slow, and therefore still maintain similar lifespans to their husbands and children and are as a result more likely to marry and bear children than equivalent TRAINED non-sparkers in Randland.

 

The only AS or former AS we know for sure has had any significant family life aside from Elayne, whose kids are still in utero, is the former Brown Martine Janata - further, the only other channeler we know for sure has any children is Morgase Trakand, whose ability is so negligible she's not likely to have any hugely significant increase to her lifespan and who is a queen in any case, who needs to bear children to ensure succession. Therefore it's likely in Randland that the numbers have been dropping just as stated by RJ - they train every channeler they can find, and most of those have wildly increased lifespans that likely result in a much smaller numbers of family due to unwillingness to outlive children and spouses to such an extent. Contrast that with the Seanchan, who train no one but damane (and thus they only remove the smaller number of sparkers from the pool). Also contrast that with the Aiel, who embrace the pain and also the duty of life in a way uncommon on the west side of the Dragonwall, and thus do not remove their channelers from the pool, save for sparking males. Against that you also have the Sharans, whose percentage of channelers seems to be totally dependent on how often the female Ayyad get pregnant, as all channelers and children of channelers breed within their own lines. Apparently the gene pool is broad enough they don't have the other issues you normally get with inbreeding, but that's a side issue. If they produce children at similar or greater rates than the general populace, then it follows that their percentage of channelers has been stable or maybe even increasing slightly over the past however long - and the Ayyad don't remove their male sparkers from the pool. They kill all males by a certain age, but they all have (apparently) multiple opportunities to pass on their genes.

 

Just my take, but it seems to me that RJ isn't out of line by saying what he said, based on what we know of how those genetics work and what we know of the behaviors of channelers and possible channelers in each of the major societies we see.

 

The reason it doesn't make sense is the AS in Randland only get some sparkers, and women who approach who can learn. Just based on Eggy's allowing of women of all ages to be tested, they got what 1000 just from surrounding countries, shows that the vast majority of women who can channel stay in the gene pool. Add to this the fact that male sparkers are the only ones who are gentled, and they are generally after they've already bred (Since they're older than women) and male nonsparkers stay in the pool.

 

So, a very small percentage of people who have the gene are removed from the breeding pool. The percentage is so small, as to be unnoticable. So his idea that they culled the ability by remove male sparkers (only 5% of channelers) and the AS (Less than 5% since they don't catch every sparker, but even if they did and all sparkers died before they coiuld breed, it'll still be less than 10% or so of all channelers, and that's given them a lot of nonsparkers going to the Tower on their own to learn) is kinda crazy. But since he said it, it's truth, even if it makes 0 sense.

[thisguy]

Didn't someone say that in the AoL 3% of the population could channel? If that was even wittled down by a third it would be a big deal.

[Mulk]

I believe it is a large stretch to say the vast majority of the channeling population stays in the gene pool. 10% is not a negligible number of channelers. That's 1/10th of the possible channeling genes funneled out of each generation, and I would argue the number in Randland is higher than that.

 

To state that by gentling male channelers that they have culled all of humanity is probably a bit of an overstatement as the majority of male channelers will not channel without training. If you combine removing that 5% of the channelers (using your male sparker number), plus a percentage point or two for the woman sparkers who are not noticed and trained in time (remember, women hit puberty earlier than men and usually spark earlier; therefore most untrained sparkers who do not survive likely die before they bear any children), plus however many channelers are either attached to the Tower and thus not producing offspring at all or not attached to the Tower and likely not producing offspring due to the pain of heart they will likely experience in outliving spouse and children, I'd put the total of channelers pulled out of each pool in the Westlands only at 20% or more (as some of those who have channeling potential will not have kids regardless of their desire to do so - they are either physically unable, they die before they bear any children, or they just don't want kids) and when you remove 1/5th of each generation's channeling potential, that will have a noticeable effect after a few thousand years. Some of that gap can be made up with women and men who are non-sparkers that have multiple children, but all of it? I rather doubt it.

 

If we use that 5% number of sparkers and compare it to what other cultures lose, we see that the Aiel only lose the 5% for men, the Seanchan lose the 5% for men and for women (10% total), and the Sharans don't lose any of it - their males have a small window to reproduce, but the implication is that they do indeed reproduce, that they are kept as breeding stock. We don't know how long the Sharans have been breeding potential and actual channelers in this fashion, but if it started, say, 1000 or 1500 years ago, that would be time for the channeling population to trend down a bit and then back up and the actual percentage, as I said above, would be dependent on how often the women attempt to bear children. Compare that with 20% in the Westlands, double the highest other amount, and that should indeed show a noticeable difference over 3000 years.

 

While I am not a geneticist, I have studied math and probability extensively in my time in school, as math was my chosen degree. Mathematically speaking, it makes sense to me. My estimations may be off, as RJ never really gives us a firm number on how many channelers come through the Tower against how many are still floating around out there, but I think they are fair guesses. As you say, it's truth whether it makes sense or not. I'm just trying to make the case that it's not as outlandish as you seem to think. If I've failed, so be it. :)

[Vardar]

I believe it is a large stretch to say the vast majority of the channeling population stays in the gene pool. 10% is not a negligible number of channelers. That's 1/10th of the possible channeling genes funneled out of each generation, and I would argue the number in Randland is higher than that.

 

To state that by gentling male channelers that they have culled all of humanity is probably a bit of an overstatement as the majority of male channelers will not channel without training. If you combine removing that 5% of the channelers (using your male sparker number), plus a percentage point or two for the woman sparkers who are not noticed and trained in time (remember, women hit puberty earlier than men and usually spark earlier; therefore most untrained sparkers who do not survive likely die before they bear any children), plus however many channelers are either attached to the Tower and thus not producing offspring at all or not attached to the Tower and likely not producing offspring due to the pain of heart they will likely experience in outliving spouse and children, I'd put the total of channelers pulled out of each pool in the Westlands only at 20% or more (as some of those who have channeling potential will not have kids regardless of their desire to do so - they are either physically unable, they die before they bear any children, or they just don't want kids) and when you remove 1/5th of each generation's channeling potential, that will have a noticeable effect after a few thousand years. Some of that gap can be made up with women and men who are non-sparkers that have multiple children, but all of it? I rather doubt it.

 

If we use that 5% number of sparkers and compare it to what other cultures lose, we see that the Aiel only lose the 5% for men, the Seanchan lose the 5% for men and for women (10% total), and the Sharans don't lose any of it - their males have a small window to reproduce, but the implication is that they do indeed reproduce, that they are kept as breeding stock. We don't know how long the Sharans have been breeding potential and actual channelers in this fashion, but if it started, say, 1000 or 1500 years ago, that would be time for the channeling population to trend down a bit and then back up and the actual percentage, as I said above, would be dependent on how often the women attempt to bear children. Compare that with 20% in the Westlands, double the highest other amount, and that should indeed show a noticeable difference over 3000 years.

 

While I am not a geneticist, I have studied math and probability extensively in my time in school, as math was my chosen degree. Mathematically speaking, it makes sense to me. My estimations may be off, as RJ never really gives us a firm number on how many channelers come through the Tower against how many are still floating around out there, but I think they are fair guesses. As you say, it's truth whether it makes sense or not. I'm just trying to make the case that it's not as outlandish as you seem to think. If I've failed, so be it. :)

 

Ok you're missing a bit.

 

The 5% is total population, male and female. Remember, even though all Males are removed, many would have had the chance to breed already, so it's less than 5% for males. And of the females who don't go to the AS, not all of those 5% die, we know 1/4 can make it on their own. So 25% of that 1% will stay in the gene pool as well.

 

Now, AS numbers have been declining over the years, not as many women come to the tower to be trained at all. So, the VAST majority of females who can learn, 95% stay in the breeding population. All of the males who can learn 95% (Of close enough to 95% as to make 0 difference) stay in the gene pool.

 

Now while I'm not a Geneticists either, I know a little. Even removing 10% of the population with a gene wouldn't be enough to provide a noticible difference over the generations. And that's not considering that's not how genes work. All signs point towards it not being possible it's just a genetics thing,

 

Regardless, let's compare Seanchan, they catch 100% of that 5% of sparkers for women, 5% of the men die, and the rest stay in the gene pool alongside the Suldam who can breed. So, what's the difference between Seanchan and Randland? The few AS who are in the tower. How many AS are there? About 1000. Now here's where it gets funky. That's not 1000 just from this current generation, they span dozens of generations (Due to how long they live), so that's a few dozen removed, hell even 100 removed from this generation (And that's not counting that some of those sparkers and nonsparkers who do come to the tower leave and reenter the breeding pool) is a drop in the genetic bucket.

 

100 more women only in the breeding populaton would not account for a 30% difference in channelers between the two areas. Do you know what it would take to remove 30% of a population from the total population with culling?

 

Although in all honesty, it would appear that the channeling gene is carried in all humans, and can be passed on regardless, or it's a soul only thing and has nothing to do with genes at all. But it's his story and he can do what he wants.

[Mulk]

very well, then. I stand corrected. I've never looked up the numbers on what percentage can actually channel as it never really interested me enough to care, so I'll assume you're correct. :)

[TootThatHorn]

 

 

it is implied that the BA see themselves as AS. they define themselves as the black ajah.an ajah is a group of AS with a common view inside the WT. it just so happens their view is in favor of the DO. if they considered themselves no AS, they had more than enough members to start their own tower openly and still train women

 

It's only implied that the BA see themselves as AS because they themselves use the word ajah when describing themselves, and they pretend to be AS because what else are they going to infiltrate. And yes, ajah's have seperate views that are held by members that are in the same ajah, but overall the AS society is the entire collection of each ajah. So that being said, no where do you see the acknowledgement of the BA by other AS other than noting that it does exist. There are no black floor tiles, there are no black stripes on the accepted's dresses or the Amyrlin's stole....It is not accepted in the least or recognized as anything but a dark entity.

 

The governing body of the AS is the Amyrlin and the Hall, and the laws put forth by them. They have defined an AS as a person that has met the required criteria to become an AS, and the second that the BA made a conscious decision to violate that criteria and change their allegiance, they gave up their title as AS. This happened regardless of whether true AS are aware of it or not.

 

This really is a matter of taking technicalities and circumstance to circle logic to a point.

[XXX]

It is Egwene's fault.

[thisguy]

It is Egwene's fault.

Most accurate post on this thread

[shortkut]

 

 

it is implied that the BA see themselves as AS. they define themselves as the black ajah.an ajah is a group of AS with a common view inside the WT. it just so happens their view is in favor of the DO. if they considered themselves no AS, they had more than enough members to start their own tower openly and still train women

 

It's only implied that the BA see themselves as AS because they themselves use the word ajah when describing themselves, and they pretend to be AS because what else are they going to infiltrate. And yes, ajah's have seperate views that are held by members that are in the same ajah, but overall the AS society is the entire collection of each ajah. So that being said, no where do you see the acknowledgement of the BA by other AS other than noting that it does exist. There are no black floor tiles, there are no black stripes on the accepted's dresses or the Amyrlin's stole....It is not accepted in the least or recognized as anything but a dark entity.

 

The governing body of the AS is the Amyrlin and the Hall, and the laws put forth by them. They have defined an AS as a person that has met the required criteria to become an AS, and the second that the BA made a conscious decision to violate that criteria and change their allegiance, they gave up their title as AS. This happened regardless of whether true AS are aware of it or not.

 

This really is a matter of taking technicalities and circumstance to circle logic to a point.

when they are BA, they keep their previous affiliation as well. i don't see how every character, until eggy kicked them out because it suited her needs at the time, can consider them AS but you and sutt cannot

 

is verin AS? she foreswore the oaths and followed orders that furthered the DO's own cause.

[Mr Ares]

they cease being AS after Eggyms mandate. That, as you seem to be fond of saying is a legal loophole. Just because she applied it retroactively, does not mean that 1 year before she was amyrlin they were not AS. It isn't balefire. in the books we see AS still consider the BA to be part of the other ajah as well. Face it, they are still AS... or were until Eggy kicked them out.

No, they are perceived as AS. You are still arguing perception against reality. If you do not know (or believe, at the least) someone to be BA, you do not treat them as BA. That you consider another channeler to be AS when actually she is BA merely means you are mistaken in your beliefs, not that her nature as a BA is magically changed by your false perception. When you join the BA, you forfeit the right to call yourself AS. Of course, given that the BA is a secret organisation, shouting from the rooftops that you have forfeited that right isn't what you want to do, therefore you do not tell people you have forfeited the right to be called AS, and therefore they treat you as if you were still AS. But you're not.

 

Why would channeling dissapear under Seanchan rule? They may do a lot wrong, but the odds of channeling leaving under them shouldn't happen.

Given the cyclical nature of time and the fact that there are Ages without channeling, at some point humanity must lose the ability to channel. That needn't be as a result of direct action by a given human culture, but rather one of the Wheel itself in action - by the same token, new Talents (such as those displayed by Min and Hurin, as well as wolfsiblings) are re-emerging into the world, but not as a result of any particular action taken by human cultures, simply the weaving of the Wheel.

 

you donm understand what happens in the olympics when someone gets caught cheating. they lose their medals like you said, but they are still acknowledged to have competed and been athletes at the time the events took place.

Many athletes compete without winning. Medals are given to winners. Your counter is flawed, because it is the status as a winner which is stripped, not the status as a competitor. You didn't address my point. If a medalists from the last Olympics was determined to have cheated, he or she would be stripped of his or her medal. Thus determined not to have won it in the first place. And, as you say, the same is true of BA. If an athlete gets away with cheating, he or she still gets to keep the ill-gotten medals. But wins during the period they were cheating do not count, and if cheating is subsequently proved that ruling will be put into place.

 

if they considered themselves no AS, they had more than enough members to start their own tower openly and still train women

They don't necessarily consider acting openly to be a desirable course of action.

 

And what is reality but another perception? ;)

An objective fact.

 

AS are there to bring stability to the world... and if there is time stop the DO. how many members of the WT do not seem to care about TG because they are focused on their own things? i remember it mentioned before, i think about the browns. are they not AS either?

Focus on TG is not the only way for an AS to serve the Light. Therefore Browns, Whites, and all ajahs have mandates that fit within the Tower's mandate - they merely fulfill different aspects of it.

 

when they are BA, they keep their previous affiliation as well. i don't see how every character, until eggy kicked them out because it suited her needs at the time, can consider them AS but you and sutt cannot

They do not consider them AS. They perceive BA as AS, but when they know a woman to be BA, they don't consider her AS.

 

is verin AS? she foreswore the oaths and followed orders that furthered the DO's own cause.

Verin removed the 3O and swore to Shai'tan, that much is true. However, the 3O are not an essential part of being AS.While Verin swore herself to the Shadow, she continued to fulfill the AS's mandate. She followed orders from the Shadow, but took the opportunity to study it, and then gave her life in an attempt to get that knowledge to someone who could use it to strike a blow against the Shadow. She may not be an AS from a legal standpoint, but she does fulfill the spirit of what it means to be AS.