The Horn Of Valere and The Aiel

[thisguy]

While there might be an Aiel hero or two tied to the Horn, there's no mention of it. As there are only just over 100 heros tied to it, you'd think one of the people who say the heros when Mat blew the horn might have wondered "Hey, who's the guy in the ninja outfit?"

[lolguy26]

if there was an aiel i dont think they would say that they might be friends

[Luckers]

We know an Aiel hero of the horn. Rand.

 

It's entirely possible that the Heroes are born in odd cultures from time to time, and that this isn't frequent enough to reflect on their overarching self-image (which is what would be seen when the Horn is blown).

 

For instance Birgitte seems to know a lot about the Atha'an Miere.

[Knivy]

How do we know that Rand is a Hero?

[Lisa Campbell]

Hawking recognises him and talks about past turnings of the Wheel at Falme. Also, knowing that Rand (Dragon Soul) is spun out again and again to save the world is a major giveaway.

[thisguy]

We know an Aiel hero of the horn. Rand.

 

It's entirely possible that the Heroes are born in odd cultures from time to time, and that this isn't frequent enough to reflect on their overarching self-image (which is what would be seen when the Horn is blown).

 

For instance Birgitte seems to know a lot about the Atha'an Miere.

 

That's true.... But, he was a hero of the horn before he was reborn with an Aiel father...

 

Just struck me odd that some of the greatest warriors of the last 3000 years and no mention of a hero. But, good point.

[Knivy]

Hawking recognises him and talks about past turnings of the Wheel at Falme. Also, knowing that Rand (Dragon Soul) is spun out again and again to save the world is a major giveaway.

Isn't the Horn always present at the Last Battle? Id think that would be enough to have Hawkman recognize him. And isnt everyone reborn?

[thisguy]

Hawking recognises him and talks about past turnings of the Wheel at Falme. Also, knowing that Rand (Dragon Soul) is spun out again and again to save the world is a major giveaway.

Isn't the Horn always present at the Last Battle? Id think that would be enough to have Hawkman recognize him. And isnt everyone reborn?

Everyone, as far as we know, is reborn. But, since Hawkwing sees Rand as the Dragon, even though he looks different than his last incarnation of the Dragon as LTT, and because LTT is the guy who is integral to fight the DO at the last battle all the time it seems that he would be a hero of the horn. I don't know if the horn is always at the last battle. The prophecy states it will be "found" before this last battle.

[Knivy]

It just seems kinda redundant that Rand would be both the "Champion of the Light" and a Hero...

[MountaineerWV]

It's the soul, not the race or people. We see the physical appearance of a Hero from their most recent reincarnation. There may have been Aiel Heroes, but the soul of that hero has been spun out after their time as an Aiel. That soul would not maintain the appearance of an Aiel in that case.

 

Another point is that the Aiel, until recently, was a very isolated people. I can think of three main events in their history that entail a foreign force entering the Waste or the Aiel leaving the Waste. The Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing's attempted invasion, and the Aiel War. They are such an isolated people that they haven't had much impact on the action in Randland in the war on the Shadow.

[thisguy]

It's the soul, not the race or people. We see the physical appearance of a Hero from their most recent reincarnation. There may have been Aiel Heroes, but the soul of that hero has been spun out after their time as an Aiel. That soul would not maintain the appearance of an Aiel in that case.

 

Another point is that the Aiel, until recently, was a very isolated people. I can think of three main events in their history that entail a foreign force entering the Waste or the Aiel leaving the Waste. The Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing's attempted invasion, and the Aiel War. They are such an isolated people that they haven't had much impact on the action in Randland in the war on the Shadow.

I hear what you're saying, but if it is their most recent incarnation that shows up - for three thousand years you have a people who are some of the finest warriors on earth and not one is mentioned as a hero. It's not a big deal, just struck me odd.

Yes, they are isolated but I'm sure there was a bad assed one or two who went into the blight and did some serious damage to the bad guys.

[TristanWebb]

Do we see their most recent incarnation, or do we see the incarnation that most recently had a profound effect on the soul?

 

Of course LTT and Hawkwing would keep that identity, those were huge lives that would have shaped the soul living them. But what of Birgitte living as a farm wife? If the horn had of been blown then would she have to go around hitting things with a rolling pin?

[Clouded]

It's the soul, not the race or people. We see the physical appearance of a Hero from their most recent reincarnation. There may have been Aiel Heroes, but the soul of that hero has been spun out after their time as an Aiel. That soul would not maintain the appearance of an Aiel in that case.

 

Another point is that the Aiel, until recently, was a very isolated people. I can think of three main events in their history that entail a foreign force entering the Waste or the Aiel leaving the Waste. The Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing's attempted invasion, and the Aiel War. They are such an isolated people that they haven't had much impact on the action in Randland in the war on the Shadow.

I hear what you're saying, but if it is their most recent incarnation that shows up - for three thousand years you have a people who are some of the finest warriors on earth and not one is mentioned as a hero. It's not a big deal, just struck me odd.

Yes, they are isolated but I'm sure there was a bad assed one or two who went into the blight and did some serious damage to the bad guys.

 

A hero of the horn isn't strictly based on battle skill. Hawkwing hinted at the possibility of Hurin becoming Hero. It was mostly due to his courage. Hurin's battle skill was never explicitly praised, so he probably wasn't much better than your standard soldier.

 

Also, the heroes are not used very often. Birgitte is born a few times that we know of. Once in the war of shadow. Once during the founding of the white tower. Again during the trolloc wars. And possibly a few times more. Calian the Chooser and Shivan the hunter are only born at the end of an age.

 

The point is, they are not used often, and there are not many of them. I can see why odds are slim that one winds up an Aiel.

[thisguy]

It's the soul, not the race or people. We see the physical appearance of a Hero from their most recent reincarnation. There may have been Aiel Heroes, but the soul of that hero has been spun out after their time as an Aiel. That soul would not maintain the appearance of an Aiel in that case.

 

Another point is that the Aiel, until recently, was a very isolated people. I can think of three main events in their history that entail a foreign force entering the Waste or the Aiel leaving the Waste. The Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing's attempted invasion, and the Aiel War. They are such an isolated people that they haven't had much impact on the action in Randland in the war on the Shadow.

I hear what you're saying, but if it is their most recent incarnation that shows up - for three thousand years you have a people who are some of the finest warriors on earth and not one is mentioned as a hero. It's not a big deal, just struck me odd.

Yes, they are isolated but I'm sure there was a bad assed one or two who went into the blight and did some serious damage to the bad guys.

 

A hero of the horn isn't strictly based on battle skill. Hawkwing hinted at the possibility of Hurin becoming Hero. It was mostly due to his courage. Hurin's battle skill was never explicitly praised, so he probably wasn't much better than your standard soldier.

 

Also, the heroes are not used very often. Birgitte is born a few times that we know of. Once in the war of shadow. Once during the founding of the white tower. Again during the trolloc wars. And possibly a few times more. Calian the Chooser and Shivan the hunter are only born at the end of an age.

 

The point is, they are not used often, and there are not many of them. I can see why odds are slim that one winds up an Aiel.

Yeah, I get it. If facing the DO doesn't take courage than what does? Actually, from the way they talk, I think the heroes have been spun out plenty of times.

[MountaineerWV]

It's the soul, not the race or people. We see the physical appearance of a Hero from their most recent reincarnation. There may have been Aiel Heroes, but the soul of that hero has been spun out after their time as an Aiel. That soul would not maintain the appearance of an Aiel in that case.

 

Another point is that the Aiel, until recently, was a very isolated people. I can think of three main events in their history that entail a foreign force entering the Waste or the Aiel leaving the Waste. The Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing's attempted invasion, and the Aiel War. They are such an isolated people that they haven't had much impact on the action in Randland in the war on the Shadow.

I hear what you're saying, but if it is their most recent incarnation that shows up - for three thousand years you have a people who are some of the finest warriors on earth and not one is mentioned as a hero. It's not a big deal, just struck me odd.

Yes, they are isolated but I'm sure there was a bad assed one or two who went into the blight and did some serious damage to the bad guys.

 

Clouded nailed it. Fighting prowess does not make one a Hero.

 

Perhaps if Ishy himself led Trollocs into the Waste and an Aiel warrior organized and led all of the Clans and then defeated Ishy in a one v one fight AND then the coalition lead to an agreement on how Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones were selected at Rhuidean that Aiel could have been a HotH.

 

Do we see their most recent incarnation, or do we see the incarnation that most recently had a profound effect on the soul?

 

Of course LTT and Hawkwing would keep that identity, those were huge lives that would have shaped the soul living them. But what of Birgitte living as a farm wife? If the horn had of been blown then would she have to go around hitting things with a rolling pin?

 

Birgitte is always an archer. Even as a farmer's wife she would have been an extraordinary archer and she would have done something profound to correct the Pattern.

[Clouded]

Yeah, I get it. If facing the DO doesn't take courage than what does? Actually, from the way they talk, I think the heroes have been spun out plenty of times.

 

Oh, I believe they've been spun out many times. It just, they've been heroes for a while. They've been spun out once an age for many turnings of the wheel.

 

And as for the difference between Hurin and Aiel men who go to the blight, I can't be sure. I believe it is because Hurin doesn't understand whats going on and still decides to face it. He only sees that something important is happening, and decides to do as much as he can to help. On the other hand, the Aiel men are doomed to insanity and try to kill as many Trollocs and Fades as they can before dying. Seems more like a suicide pact, or dragging your enemy down with you.

 

I read your other point in the Question thread. I thought it was a good question to wonder why the heroes appeared to come from only Randland. Or, at least, the ones in bizarre garb were not noted by Rand.

[Mulk]

We have no idea what makes a Hero. We just know that all of the Heroes (at least that we are aware of) live these legendary lives full of adventure, intrigue, battle, etc.

 

Aiel haven't existed in a form that would lend itself to that kind of life for all that long in the grand scheme of things - and it's not that the Dashain were cowards, mind you. We do hear in Rand's Aiel flashback sequence of just how lion-hearted the Aiel were even when they did not carry weapons. It's just that none of the legends we hear about as linked to the Heroes of the Horn in Randland include legendary Tinkers, and given that the Dashain had very similar viewpoints, I think it likely that there were either none such or very few even in the Age of Legends. Further, the twelve warrior clans of the Aiel cemented themselves and their legacies on the far side of the Dragonwall. No one knew anything at all about them other than it's a really bad idea to go into the Waste until the giving of Avendoraldera to the Cairhienin, and even then no one really knew anything of substance about them. Any such legends the Aiel have about people who may have, in retrospect, been Heroes, are completely unknown to us - the Aiel remember their forebears but do not seem to dwell on them in the same fashion the Westlanders do, probably because they are largely a merit-based society.

 

I agree it is likely that there are likely very few, but that's not exactly a knock on them. There are very few of any nation at any point in time who can be called Heroes and most of those we think of as Heroes in the books come from nations that no longer exist on the map.

[JakeBarnes]

I've always believed that being 'tied to the horn' was something one could do voluntarily. The fact that there are precepts indicates an agreement was made.

[thisguy]

We have no idea what makes a Hero. We just know that all of the Heroes (at least that we are aware of) live these legendary lives full of adventure, intrigue, battle, etc.

 

Aiel haven't existed in a form that would lend itself to that kind of life for all that long in the grand scheme of things - and it's not that the Dashain were cowards, mind you. We do hear in Rand's Aiel flashback sequence of just how lion-hearted the Aiel were even when they did not carry weapons. It's just that none of the legends we hear about as linked to the Heroes of the Horn in Randland include legendary Tinkers, and given that the Dashain had very similar viewpoints, I think it likely that there were either none such or very few even in the Age of Legends. Further, the twelve warrior clans of the Aiel cemented themselves and their legacies on the far side of the Dragonwall. No one knew anything at all about them other than it's a really bad idea to go into the Waste until the giving of Avendoraldera to the Cairhienin, and even then no one really knew anything of substance about them. Any such legends the Aiel have about people who may have, in retrospect, been Heroes, are completely unknown to us - the Aiel remember their forebears but do not seem to dwell on them in the same fashion the Westlanders do, probably because they are largely a merit-based society.

 

I agree it is likely that there are likely very few, but that's not exactly a knock on them. There are very few of any nation at any point in time who can be called Heroes and most of those we think of as Heroes in the books come from nations that no longer exist on the map.

 

Yeah, you are all making sense. It just bothers me then. Like you said, they went to the far side of the dragonwall and so are not represented. Same with the Seanchan and those other guys whose name eludes me, right now. On the other side of the waste. It just seems like only Randland heroes are tied to the horn.

[Morden]

The heroes of the horn from my knowledge are the same as Rand. most of them are spun out as and when are needed. They do great deeds when they are needed by the pattern, Assume the Aiel have been around for 2,500 years. To the Wheel of Time that isnt very long. Birgitta herself probably wasnt spun out that many times over that period. And the Dragon was spun out once in 3,000 years. For all we know they could have had heroes spun out as Aiel.

 

According to Birgitta in ToM, she once had a life where she and Gaidal were simple farmers, she said it was the most boring life she had ever lived.

 

What has happened in the Aiel waste to warrant a legend worthy of distinguishing someone as a HotH? there could have been many born, but not had the pattern need them to do great deeds because of how secluded and localised the Aiel were, there was a lot of war and skirmishes but they were not of the same sort as the wetlands due to ji'e'toh(sp)

[thisguy]

The heroes of the horn from my knowledge are the same as Rand. most of them are spun out as and when are needed. They do great deeds when they are needed by the pattern, Assume the Aiel have been around for 2,500 years. To the Wheel of Time that isnt very long. Birgitta herself probably wasnt spun out that many times over that period. And the Dragon was spun out once in 3,000 years. For all we know they could have had heroes spun out as Aiel.

 

According to Birgitta in ToM, she once had a life where she and Gaidal were simple farmers, she said it was the most boring life she had ever lived.

 

What has happened in the Aiel waste to warrant a legend worthy of distinguishing someone as a HotH? there could have been many born, but not had the pattern need them to do great deeds because of how secluded and localised the Aiel were, there was a lot of war and skirmishes but they were not of the same sort as the wetlands due to ji'e'toh(sp)

 

You make some good points, but what's wrong with ji'e'toh? I mean that statement alone sorta goes along with what I'm saying: all the heroes seem to represent Ran Land, not the aiel, seanchan or shaara.

[Morden]

The Aiel honour rewards capturing people as gaishan more than killing, and to most Aiel they would rather surrender than give their enemy(Aiel) the honor of killing them. thats my impression atleast even though it is contradictory in a certain sense.

 

I agree in a way but I think HotH have been born into the Aiel and Seanchan, I just dont think that either culture would allow them to really fullfil what has made them heroes in the first place. Because they both have very unique mindsets of honor and duty that would be alien to many.

 

Normal people who accomplish great deeds and tales however... that is a Hero because other people talk about them and spread the legend, that is how good you have to be to get on the horns memberlist. people have to remember you.

 

The Aiel have not shown anyone that they revere as being a legend in their history, granted part of that is because they have done their best to suppress their past, so it makes sense for them to keep up that tradition to avoid people looking back and wondering.

 

As for the Seanchan, they've been around under a thousand years, and they are the ancesters of a HotH, we havent heard any of their legends, so we cant really judge whether any of them have been born there.

 

Also remember that Rand and they are tied. He would recognise them because they are linked to the wheel in the same way that all of the great souls are. and he is the dragon.

 

Maybe the whole clothing thing has to occur multiple times for it to imprint on the horn? an archer is an archer afterall, not much changes, but the seanchan armor is pretty unique, would be hard to have a hero born enough times and do great deeds in such a short space of time?

[thisguy]

The Aiel honour rewards capturing people as gaishan more than killing, and to most Aiel they would rather surrender than give their enemy(Aiel) the honor of killing them. thats my impression atleast even though it is contradictory in a certain sense.

 

 

 

Where do you get that? No, they wouldn't. If someone touches them and doesn't stab them they give themselves over as gaishan for toh. Otherwise, they'll fight to the death.

[Morden]

Bane and Chiad surrendered, but i think that might have been partially as a snub at the shaido.

[thisguy]

Bane and Chiad surrendered, but i think that might have been partially as a snub at the shaido.

 

I'm still rereading. I remember they were made gaishan with faile but forget all the subtleties.