Moiraine and her new angreal

[thisguy]

I thought Gitara had to tell Luc to flee to the Blight to get Tigrane's head so messed up that she was miserable, and thus when she told her to flee to the waste, between her deadbeat husband and missing her dear brother, she was just mentally unbalanced enough to do it. That's how I read it anyway, Luc was just a pawn who had to be gotten rid of. Otherwise he would have tracked Tigrane down and ruined everything (aside from the mental anguish needed)

 

I'm not sure if that's correct or not. Could be. But, Elaida had her own foretelling which said the Royal family of Andor would be central to the final battle.

 

At this point that's:

Rand

Luc

Galad

Elayne G

Gawyn

 

I guess, Morgase, too.

 

Luc may have a bigger role than we think.

[Suttree]

I thought Gitara had to tell Luc to flee to the Blight to get Tigrane's head so messed up that she was miserable, and thus when she told her to flee to the waste, between her deadbeat husband and missing her dear brother, she was just mentally unbalanced enough to do it. That's how I read it anyway, Luc was just a pawn who had to be gotten rid of. Otherwise he would have tracked Tigrane down and ruined everything (aside from the mental anguish needed)

 

This is never stated or implied in the text. The reason given by Dyelin I posted above is the only comment we get on it.

[Vardar]

I thought Gitara had to tell Luc to flee to the Blight to get Tigrane's head so messed up that she was miserable, and thus when she told her to flee to the waste, between her deadbeat husband and missing her dear brother, she was just mentally unbalanced enough to do it. That's how I read it anyway, Luc was just a pawn who had to be gotten rid of. Otherwise he would have tracked Tigrane down and ruined everything (aside from the mental anguish needed)

 

This is never stated or implied in the text. The reason given by Dyelin I posted above is the only comment we get on it.

 

Tigrane's mental anguish over the loss of her brother were mentioned in the text, hence my conclusion. It's also mentioned Luc was a good woodsman and tracker wasn't it? I suppose it depends on how you define implied, but from the text and the context that's what I assumed.

 

Sure maybe he has some other big role to play, but it seems like sometimes the simpliest solution is the right one, he had to be removed for obvious reasons, and that was how it was done.And it fits in with your quote.

 

Yes I know, you want quotes, I'll go back through tonight and dig up some info on Luc and where I reached my conclusions from.

[Suttree]

I thought Gitara had to tell Luc to flee to the Blight to get Tigrane's head so messed up that she was miserable, and thus when she told her to flee to the waste, between her deadbeat husband and missing her dear brother, she was just mentally unbalanced enough to do it. That's how I read it anyway, Luc was just a pawn who had to be gotten rid of. Otherwise he would have tracked Tigrane down and ruined everything (aside from the mental anguish needed)

 

This is never stated or implied in the text. The reason given by Dyelin I posted above is the only comment we get on it.

 

Tigrane's mental anguish over the loss of her brother were mentioned in the text, hence my conclusion. It's also mentioned Luc was a good woodsman and tracker wasn't it? I suppose it depends on how you define implied, but from the text and the context that's what I assumed.

 

Sure maybe he has some other big role to play, but it seems like sometimes the simpliest solution is the right one, he had to be removed for obvious reasons, and that was how it was done.And it fits in with your quote.

 

Yes I know, you want quotes, I'll go back through tonight and dig up some info on Luc and where I reached my conclusions from.

 

Gitara had two foretellings here. One in relation to Luc which i mentioned and one for Tigraine. That is canon. No need for quotes.

[Vardar]

I thought Gitara had to tell Luc to flee to the Blight to get Tigrane's head so messed up that she was miserable, and thus when she told her to flee to the waste, between her deadbeat husband and missing her dear brother, she was just mentally unbalanced enough to do it. That's how I read it anyway, Luc was just a pawn who had to be gotten rid of. Otherwise he would have tracked Tigrane down and ruined everything (aside from the mental anguish needed)

 

This is never stated or implied in the text. The reason given by Dyelin I posted above is the only comment we get on it.

 

Tigrane's mental anguish over the loss of her brother were mentioned in the text, hence my conclusion. It's also mentioned Luc was a good woodsman and tracker wasn't it? I suppose it depends on how you define implied, but from the text and the context that's what I assumed.

 

Sure maybe he has some other big role to play, but it seems like sometimes the simpliest solution is the right one, he had to be removed for obvious reasons, and that was how it was done.And it fits in with your quote.

 

Yes I know, you want quotes, I'll go back through tonight and dig up some info on Luc and where I reached my conclusions from.

 

Gitara had two foretellings here. One in relation to Luc which i mentioned and one for Tigraine. That is canon. No need for quotes.

 

Huh? That "Canon" doesn't disprove my theory at all.

[jwood01]

Did I remember this right?

 

In tFoH, Moiraine puts the very powerful angreal, that she now has as of ToM, out in the open on the wagon bed, so that Lanfear would find it and go crazy on Rand et al., thus letting Moiraine push Lanfear into Finnland?

 

She also dragged Rand down to the docks for this confrontation to happen.

 

She did all this because of her trip through the doorway and the rings at Rhuidean right?

 

Does this bug anyone else that it is kind of a "seeing the future" thing? Gitara Moroso's actions e.g., sending Luke north, sending Tigraine to the Waste, etc. kind of bug me too.

 

Actually I asked Brandon about the angreal, and he stated that it was different to the one used at the docks, despite the similar physical descriptions.

 

Wow... Thanks Luckers.

[Suttree]

I thought Gitara had to tell Luc to flee to the Blight to get Tigrane's head so messed up that she was miserable, and thus when she told her to flee to the waste, between her deadbeat husband and missing her dear brother, she was just mentally unbalanced enough to do it. That's how I read it anyway, Luc was just a pawn who had to be gotten rid of. Otherwise he would have tracked Tigrane down and ruined everything (aside from the mental anguish needed)

 

This is never stated or implied in the text. The reason given by Dyelin I posted above is the only comment we get on it.

 

Tigrane's mental anguish over the loss of her brother were mentioned in the text, hence my conclusion. It's also mentioned Luc was a good woodsman and tracker wasn't it? I suppose it depends on how you define implied, but from the text and the context that's what I assumed.

 

Sure maybe he has some other big role to play, but it seems like sometimes the simpliest solution is the right one, he had to be removed for obvious reasons, and that was how it was done.And it fits in with your quote.

 

Yes I know, you want quotes, I'll go back through tonight and dig up some info on Luc and where I reached my conclusions from.

 

Gitara had two foretellings here. One in relation to Luc which i mentioned and one for Tigraine. That is canon. No need for quotes.

 

Huh? That "Canon" doesn't disprove my theory at all.

 

Sorry, thought you were claiming there was no first foretelling and it was just a scheme? Or that it was the reason Gitara sent him. Regardless with the role Slayer has and will play I find it pretty doubtful that the main reason was Tigraines mental state. Look forward to seeing the quotes and you flesh out the theory though.

[jwood01]

And for the other people saying that i shouldn't like fantasy if i don't like Foretelling and seeing the future. I LOVE fantasy, and that is why I am online commenting on a series of books I have been reading and rereading since I was 14 or 15 (I am now 31).

 

I do not necessarily have an issue with the manifest destiny aspect of much of the fantasy genre or this series; however, my gut feeling is that Gitara's involvement in Rand being born and Moiraine's orchestrated confrontation with Lanfear were just too blunt. This is just my feeling, and obviously we can all have different feeling when reading a series.

 

And at the same time, it could be that one of Gitara's actions come out in an unexpected manner, e.g., Luc/Isam's riole in the LB

[Vardar]

I thought Gitara had to tell Luc to flee to the Blight to get Tigrane's head so messed up that she was miserable, and thus when she told her to flee to the waste, between her deadbeat husband and missing her dear brother, she was just mentally unbalanced enough to do it. That's how I read it anyway, Luc was just a pawn who had to be gotten rid of. Otherwise he would have tracked Tigrane down and ruined everything (aside from the mental anguish needed)

 

This is never stated or implied in the text. The reason given by Dyelin I posted above is the only comment we get on it.

 

Tigrane's mental anguish over the loss of her brother were mentioned in the text, hence my conclusion. It's also mentioned Luc was a good woodsman and tracker wasn't it? I suppose it depends on how you define implied, but from the text and the context that's what I assumed.

 

Sure maybe he has some other big role to play, but it seems like sometimes the simpliest solution is the right one, he had to be removed for obvious reasons, and that was how it was done.And it fits in with your quote.

 

Yes I know, you want quotes, I'll go back through tonight and dig up some info on Luc and where I reached my conclusions from.

 

Gitara had two foretellings here. One in relation to Luc which i mentioned and one for Tigraine. That is canon. No need for quotes.

 

Huh? That "Canon" doesn't disprove my theory at all.

 

Sorry, thought you were claiming there was no first foretelling and it was just a scheme? Or that it was the reason Gitara sent him. Regardless with the role Slayer has and will play I find it pretty doubtful that the main reason was Tigraines mental state. Look forward to seeing the quotes and you flesh out the theory though.

 

Yea, I was just saying that was the reason for the fortelling, since technically it's fufills it. I'll get too it eventually. Runing a word search now on the first 5 books seeing if I can find it.

[Maleshub]

Vardamus, correct me if I am wrong. But you are implying that Gitara's foretelling vis-a-vis Luc was to set the stage for Tigraine's departure to the Blight. That concept sounds like Daes Daemar, not a foretelling. From Gitara's foretellings to Tigraine and when Rand was born and Elaida's foretellings in Caemlyn and Tar Valon, the image is that the foretelling is sudden and pattern-induced. It is not planned. The Aes Sedai utters the words of the foretelling without thinking about them before hand. Here is Gitara's foretelling to Tigraine, narrated by Amys and Bair in TSR:

 

An Aes Sedai called Gitara Moroso, who had the Foretelling, had told her that disaster would befall her land and her people, perhaps the world, unless she went to dwell among the Maidens of the Spear, telling no one of her going. She must become a Maiden, and she could not return to her own land until the Maidens had gone to Tar Valon.

 

 

This cannot be Daes Dae'mar because it mentions things that happened in the future. The same applies to a foretelling on Luc.

 

As to Luc's role, we know from the Dark Prophecy that he went to the Blight and fought Isam, Lan's cousin, and the two became one man with two souls. We know that Luc killed Rand's father, Janduin, after he abandoned his post as Clan Chief and went to the Blight. We know that Luc was tasked with hunting Fain, the renegade, and might end up killing him. He was tasked with killing Rand and failed. He was also tasked with helping Graendal kill Perrin and failed. What else he'll do before the end is up in the air. But he still has a role to play.

[thisguy]

Vardamus, correct me if I am wrong. But you are implying that Gitara's foretelling vis-a-vis Luc was to set the stage for Tigraine's departure to the Blight. That concept sounds like Daes Daemar, not a foretelling. From Gitara's foretellings to Tigraine and when Rand was born and Elaida's foretellings in Caemlyn and Tar Valon, the image is that the foretelling is sudden and pattern-induced. It is not planned. The Aes Sedai utters the words of the foretelling without thinking about them before hand. Here is Gitara's foretelling to Tigraine, narrated by Amys and Bair in TSR:

 

An Aes Sedai called Gitara Moroso, who had the Foretelling, had told her that disaster would befall her land and her people, perhaps the world, unless she went to dwell among the Maidens of the Spear, telling no one of her going. She must become a Maiden, and she could not return to her own land until the Maidens had gone to Tar Valon.

 

 

This cannot be Daes Dae'mar because it mentions things that happened in the future. The same applies to a foretelling on Luc.

 

As to Luc's role, we know from the Dark Prophecy that he went to the Blight and fought Isam, Lan's cousin, and the two became one man with two souls. We know that Luc killed Rand's father, Janduin, after he abandoned his post as Clan Chief and went to the Blight. We know that Luc was tasked with hunting Fain, the renegade, and might end up killing him. He was tasked with killing Rand and failed. He was also tasked with helping Graendal kill Perrin and failed. What else he'll do before the end is up in the air. But he still has a role to play.

 

I think he's another character that might have a Huge role to play in what comes. So far, his role seems to be understated.

[Vardar]

Vardamus, correct me if I am wrong. But you are implying that Gitara's foretelling vis-a-vis Luc was to set the stage for Tigraine's departure to the Blight. That concept sounds like Daes Daemar, not a foretelling. From Gitara's foretellings to Tigraine and when Rand was born and Elaida's foretellings in Caemlyn and Tar Valon, the image is that the foretelling is sudden and pattern-induced. It is not planned. The Aes Sedai utters the words of the foretelling without thinking about them before hand. Here is Gitara's foretelling to Tigraine, narrated by Amys and Bair in TSR:

 

An Aes Sedai called Gitara Moroso, who had the Foretelling, had told her that disaster would befall her land and her people, perhaps the world, unless she went to dwell among the Maidens of the Spear, telling no one of her going. She must become a Maiden, and she could not return to her own land until the Maidens had gone to Tar Valon.

 

 

This cannot be Daes Dae'mar because it mentions things that happened in the future. The same applies to a foretelling on Luc.

 

As to Luc's role, we know from the Dark Prophecy that he went to the Blight and fought Isam, Lan's cousin, and the two became one man with two souls. We know that Luc killed Rand's father, Janduin, after he abandoned his post as Clan Chief and went to the Blight. We know that Luc was tasked with hunting Fain, the renegade, and might end up killing him. He was tasked with killing Rand and failed. He was also tasked with helping Graendal kill Perrin and failed. What else he'll do before the end is up in the air. But he still has a role to play.

 

No, not the great game, I'm implying that her fortelling about Luc, was in preperation to her fortelling about Tigraine. Luc had to be out of the way for Tigraine to disappear. If he was still around, and she vanished, he would have chased her, possibly ruining everything. If she showed up in the Waste, with her brother in tow, the maidens would never have accepted her, everything would have fell apart.

 

So her initial fortelling to Luc, he must seek his fortune in the blight, to save the world, set the stage for Rand to be born, Tigrane leaving not only gave Rand a mother, but messed with her husband's head, as well as making his brother lose status leading him down his path to cutting the tree down, making Tigrane come out of the waste to give birth. All the threads, interwoven.

 

And do we know Luc and Isam fought?

[Clouded]

I thought Gitara had to tell Luc to flee to the Blight to get Tigrane's head so messed up that she was miserable, and thus when she told her to flee to the waste, between her deadbeat husband and missing her dear brother, she was just mentally unbalanced enough to do it. That's how I read it anyway, Luc was just a pawn who had to be gotten rid of. Otherwise he would have tracked Tigrane down and ruined everything (aside from the mental anguish needed)

 

No, not the great game, I'm implying that her fortelling about Luc, was in preperation to her fortelling about Tigraine. Luc had to be out of the way for Tigraine to disappear. If he was still around, and she vanished, he would have chased her, possibly ruining everything. If she showed up in the Waste, with her brother in tow, the maidens would never have accepted her, everything would have fell apart.

 

So her initial fortelling to Luc, he must seek his fortune in the blight, to save the world, set the stage for Rand to be born, Tigrane leaving not only gave Rand a mother, but messed with her husband's head, as well as making his brother lose status leading him down his path to cutting the tree down, making Tigrane come out of the waste to give birth. All the threads, interwoven.

 

And do we know Luc and Isam fought?

 

I guess the confusion comes from the word choice. The way I read your statement I gathered you are implying Gitara Moroso chose to foretell Luc in order to destabilize Tigraine. This is incorrect, no? Either way, the pattern is what forced these events.

 

As for whether or not Gitara's foretelling to Luc was solely to destabilize Tigraine, I also believe that is not true. I think something more rests on Luc being in the blight. Something more than getting Tigraine to birth Rand.

 

Also, Laman Damodred is Taringail's uncle, not brother.

 

Finally, I haven't found anything on Luc and Isam fighting, just that they must of met in the blight.

 

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom. Isam waited in the high passes. The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill. One did live, and one did die, but both are. The Time of Change has come. Blood feeds blood. Blood calls blood. Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

I guess you could interpret that as fighting, but I believe it has more to do with the merging of their souls.

[roocifer]

On the lines of that, are there any theories that have been posted as to why he has Luc's body in the waking world, but Slayer/Isam's in TAR?

[Vardar]

I guess the confusion comes from the word choice. The way I read your statement I gathered you are implying Gitara Moroso chose to foretell Luc in order to destabilize Tigraine. This is incorrect, no? Either way, the pattern is what forced these events.

 

As for whether or not Gitara's foretelling to Luc was solely to destabilize Tigraine, I also believe that is not true. I think something more rests on Luc being in the blight. Something more than getting Tigraine to birth Rand.

 

Also, Laman Damodred is Taringail's uncle, not brother.

 

Finally, I haven't found anything on Luc and Isam fighting, just that they must of met in the blight.

 

Yes I suppose it was about wording, sorry.

 

But even if he has more to do in the story, what can/will he do for the forces of light? I can't see him switching sides suddenly. I think his major contribution to the forces of light was to allow his nephew to be born, via the fortelling.

 

I guess you could interpret that as fighting, but I believe it has more to do with the merging of their souls.

 

Well I can see them fighting, I mean Isam was evil right? Do we know if Luc was? But you're right, we have no idea, hence my question. I was asking did we see that somewhere, because I couldn't recall.

[Clouded]

But even if he has more to do in the story, what can/will he do for the forces of light? I can't see him switching sides suddenly. I think his major contribution to the forces of light was to allow his nephew to be born, via the fortelling.

 

Well I can see them fighting, I mean Isam was evil right? Do we know if Luc was? But you're right, we have no idea, hence my question. I was asking did we see that somewhere, because I couldn't recall.

 

I don't think Luc will switch sides. I just think it will be important to the last battle. He could possibly do something intending to help the dark one, that will set up or accidentally help a light-sider. I am also toying with the idea that Slayers creation will provide Rand with information on how to deal with his and Moridin's link. Min's foretelling and the Dark prophecy are eerily similar.

 

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

[shortkut]

why does gitara's foretelling have to be a lightside prophecy? a prophecy is a prophecy is a prophecy regardless of who it seems to favor

[Vardar]

why does gitara's foretelling have to be a lightside prophecy? a prophecy is a prophecy is a prophecy regardless of who it seems to favor

 

You're correct, however it doesn't seem many of the prophecies on the light side tell how the dark can win the Last Battle, and likewise for the Dark Side. However given the fact that we're missing so much info, we really don't know do we.

[Suttree]

why does gitara's foretelling have to be a lightside prophecy? a prophecy is a prophecy is a prophecy regardless of who it seems to favor

 

Have we seen a single instance of a light side character having a "dark side" foretelling?

[Knivy]

We don't see many fortellings at all, do we?

 

We see Elaida have a few, and the one with Tigrane and Luc, but isnt that it?

[Vardar]

We don't see many fortellings at all, do we?

 

We see Elaida have a few, and the one with Tigrane and Luc, but isnt that it?

 

We don't even know the full Prophesies of the Dragon, and that's a major plotline of the series. I really wanna get ahold of those one day.

[Terez]

On the lines of that, are there any theories that have been posted as to why he has Luc's body in the waking world, but Slayer/Isam's in TAR?

 

Only RJ's theory.

[FarShainMael]

We don't see many fortellings at all, do we?

 

We see Elaida have a few, and the one with Tigrane and Luc, but isnt that it?

 

We see Nicola's Foretelling (LoC14), and we see Gitara's Foretelling of the Dragon's birth (NS2). We also hear about Lidya's Foretelling to Tuon about Mat (KoD36), and the Foretelling about Tellindal Terraso (ToM51). But - and this may be significant - we do not see on-screen Gitara's Foretellings about Tigraine and Luc. We only hear about those, from Dyelin (LoC16).

[thisguy]

On the lines of that, are there any theories that have been posted as to why he has Luc's body in the waking world, but Slayer/Isam's in TAR?

 

Only RJ's theory.

Thanks. I didn't realize he could choose either body.

[Terez]

It's okay; blame RJ for always portraying them that way. We never see Luc in the dream, and we never see Isam in the real world.