How could that other Power source be felt all of a sudden..?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahh, it is good to see an extraordinarily involved theory Mik! While I don't always agree, I am facinated by the way your mind works!

 

I have said to you before, the problem is you are too damn smart!

 

In essance, I think the theory is a good one that I like, as I have said. However, it gets confusing for most of us when you go into the depth you are known to, and it gets hard to explain/understand, as we know all to well eh?

 

So (and correct me if I have made any mistakes) this is the general theory I got from it, which I like , although I couldn't say with any certainty if it was true, as cold, hard evidence isn't available, it is more connecting the ideology of it.

 

So, we have the Dark One trying to destroy the world, basically the antithesis of creation, order, preservation - destruction, disassembly, chaos.

 

To oppose the Dark One, the theory is "order and belief give strength". We have this from Herid Fel, a prominent philosopher, who sadly died before explaining himself. However, certain deductions can be made from what we have seen. The Dark One's main game plan started with the Lord of Chaos, with Demandred's order to "let the Lord of Chaos rule". Putting aside the actual "Lord of Chaos", chaos is ordered, to be sown. Obviously this has one very practical reason, to weaken the forces of the Light.

 

However, we have reason to believe that these mundane matters are not all that important. Verin believed that the LB was not going to be fought like Rand thinks it is. Not Shadowspawn v humans, although that will be a big part, it is generally accepted that it will a much more complex affair. What we also know about the Dark One is that its essence, its very being, destroys the pattern. According to Moridin (which again, is generally accepted as the secret truth) the DO doesn't want to rule over the world as a Dark God, but wants to end time and existence completely. The DO, once free can destroy the Pattern, no matter how many oppose it, the DO seeks first and foremost freedom from the prison so it can unravel the existence.

 

So with that in mind, the Dark One asking Demandred to use balefire is put in perspective. Balefire, the one thing that humans can use to unravel the pattern. Chaos, to unravel the forces of Light. All these things ordered to destabilise the Pattern. We see that with the weakening of the seals, with the greater chaos spreading through the world, the DO gains power.

 

So, to oppose the DO, the forces of Light have to unify. That can counter the physical threat of the Shadow, but what about the ethereal threat? "Belief and Order." As with the physical realm, so to the mental. We get a sense of this through Rand and his tie to the Land as the Dragon. Strife and chaos in his mind aids the DO in the land. When "belief and order" is restored (at least a large portion of it) via VoG, so too does the Land stablize against the Dark One's presence. It is also reflected in TAR, belief and order give strength to creation, the more strongly one believes, the firmer the creation in TAR. Chaos and disruption aids destruction, but belief can restore the order, and repel the chaos, as Mesaana found out to her sorrow. Lanfear gives us a hint of it in tDR, telling Egwene it is good to call the DO a fool, it loosens his hold over the world. Now I am not suggesting everyone just needs to call the DO an ass, and he goes away, but on one level, such actions help fight the DO.

 

So, with that out of the way, the AoL, when the very meaning of War has been lost (poetic or literal), and order, peace and belief reigns, why would the DO suddenly be sensed?

 

Through the spread of chaos and disbelief. Which is where Elan comes in. His books, as stated, focus on disassembly, disbelief, unreasoning, very chaotic and destructive views. The topics themselves suggest that Elan has found something, even if he is not sure of the exact nature, his philosophy has lead to some new belief, one that coincides with the DO. So when Elan spreads this (intentionally or not) and doubt, unreasoning and other such ideas spread, the DO gains strength in the world. Or perhaps the human mind opens itself to the DO's power, finding a like-minded idea in the power of the DO.

 

So, Mierin finds the bore, incidentally, she is already "ripe for the Shadow's plucking" (able to sense the DO as above?) and drills a hole in it like BP. Nothing happens immediately though (apart from the whole Sharom collapsing, but that's not my meaning) no Dark One riding on a black horse, whose name is Death, smiting people left and right. No, nothing happens for a hundred years, except the slow decline of order, belief and the rise of chaos, disbelief and destruction, all of which makes the DO stronger. Then the DO launches it's campaign. Incidentally, Elan is the first to go over. It is Elan who explains exactly what the DO is, what the war is going to be about, and why they should join with the Shadow, and on that day the war begins. Now granted, Elan had 100 years to learn all of this, however, it is suspicious that he knows so much about the Shadow, when to most it went by relatively unnoticed until the end. Elan of course, had to seek this power, which ties in with his previous works, which seek philosophically, answers that the DO handily provides.

 

Thus, DO stronger = chaos strife etc.. possibly Elan's philosophical ideologies on unreasoning, strife and such = opens up a path to sensing the DO.

 

Now this requires a degree of assumption, a slippery slope argument, however, I think it is a nice theory, which fits in with what we know and suspect.

[Mik]

*whistles*

Just read both posts and let me just start with saying; niiice.

I don't understand for the life of me why we usually ended up in a bloody melee where after a while I just thought "forget it" and left the forum (Shivan the Hunter & Equal yet not come to mind...if you recall).

I'm going to leave the posts/replies in tact, so this will probably be two (maybe three) posts. I hope admin/ mods won't mind the double postings. (if you guys do.. let me know)

Anyway... here I go...

 

The most damning thing about this idea is, of course, that there is absolutely no evidence to support it. Just guesswork.

Well hello there, kind sir! Let's sift through your subtleties again, shall we?

 

Maybe if belief and order give strength to the Pattern then disbelief and chaos weaken it,....

Pure and utter guesswork absolutely not supported?

It's solid logic based on three well-established facts actually;

1 - RJ himself called Shai'tan the 'dark counterpart' of Creation. I could grab that quote easily but I'm pretty sure you've seen it.

2 - We've seen Chaos mentioned -and work- in the Shadow's advantage throughout the books. Even the BWB starts mentioning chaos welling up up the moment Shai'tans prison is pierced.

3 - We have Herid Fel -a philosopher, how nice!- mentioning "Belief and Order give strenght" while he's actually researching how to deal with the Shadow properly.

 

You can hardly call combining facts 1, 2 & 3 'pure and utter guesswork absolutely not supported'.

Chaos gives strenght to Shai'tan and weakens the Pattern. That fits with that Fel wrote about Order giving strenght to Rand's cause. That in turn lends credibility to Fel's assesment that Belief gives strenght to Rand's cause as well. And simple logic -combined with the fact that we've seen fact 1 literally play out here- lends credit that Disbelief strenghtens the Shadow.

 

Coincidently, Elan Morin -also a well known, well respected philosopher of his time (a well known fact again, I might add!)- wrote some books that -given it's titles- try to tell the readers of those books that Reason and Meanig are absent or folly.

Tying those together is a decent theory and not guesswork.

Actually, Mik, guesswork is exactly what it is. Chaos does not weaken the Pattern, so much as it weakens the forces of the Light. Divide and conquer. Belief and order give strength, not so much to the Pattern, but to the forces of the Light, to make them better able to resist the advances of chaos. As plausible a theory as your own, and based on the same premises. Just as much a bunch of guesswork.

Actually, Mr Ares, what you wrote isn't guesswork at all; we see your explanation of how Chaos and Order work play out throughout the books, so why would you call that 'guesswork'? But you see, what you wrote isn't the whole truth. And -again- I'm surprised I'm actually the one who has to come up with quotes for something so, so obvious. You know these books well. And from what I can tell you're a very intelligent man. So why do I have to explain it to you in such detail... while I'm sitting here thinking you wouldn't even need two sentences.

Anyway. Here I go again:

 

Let me just grab two quotes (there's probably quite a few more, but there will do by themselves just fine):

 

The fabric of society began to unravel under the onslaught of the Dark One's influence. A large part of the horror came from the simple fact that for many years, no one knew why this was all happening; chaos seemed to be welling up from nowhere, without cause.

Some people did begin to suspect, and eventually to know, the cause, but unfortunately most of these were people who saw possible gain for themselves in the Dark One's freedom

 

The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of reason and logic, the breaker of balance, the unmaker of order.

Even without Herid Fel's words about 'Belief and Order' in direct relationship to how to defeat the Dark One, these quotes alone prove my point. Your points about chaos and order are valid ones (and hardly 'speculation', I might add), but those don't disprove mine in the slightest.

I'd say if anything the first quote supports me. It is, after all, the fabric of society, not the Pattern, that is being unravelled by the chaos. The second quote can be interpreted either way. Now, it might seem obvious to you that certain things are true. Many things seem obvious to me that are unnoticed by others. It is always helpful to try to explain our reasoning on things that seem so intuitive to us, but so counter-intuitive to people we are trying to discuss with. The leap you have made is that belief and order give strength means strength to the Pattern - people who don't start from your viewpoint simply see a counter-intuitive leap, guesswork, or some such.

The thing I don't understand about your response is how this post (and the previous post) suggest that 'the fabric of society' and 'the Pattern' are two distinct seperate entities that do not relate to one another. The way I see it is that 'the fabric of society' is a big part of the Pattern itself. The Wheel (Time) weaves fabric that is constructed directly from lives and events (Threads) into the Pattern! They are not two seperate things and that's why my previous post said you were more then half right to say what you said about order and chaos, but that it wasn't the whole of it. And that it certainly wasn't guesswork!

 

Let me grab a quote that shows us how the Wheel weaves the Pattern:

The Wheel is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality

I don't see how you can state that Chaos can unravel the fabric of society, but that that's not the Pattern is... well.. I don't understand how and why you think that. Then there's the wording of that sentence I quoted earlier; the "fabric" of society "unraveled" under the unslaught of the influence of the Dark One himself. The way that is worded also fits with how I percieve the Pattern and how Time -the Wheel- weaves it; Threads of events and lives (society if you will) are being unraveled, harming the fabric of the Pattern.

 

On top of that, said quote directly linked the Dark One as the source of the Chaos twice. It was the Dark One's direct influence (without anyone realizing) that made 'fabric unravel'. And the quote said that without cause, chaos welled up from nowhere. So that's why, yes, that I still think it's obvious how I percieved things. I'm hoping that by showing -with that quote- how I envision 'the fabric of society' to be an important part of what the Pattern actually is, that you at the very least see where I'm comming from.

Actually, now that we come to the heart of the difference perspectives (I think), you might actually agree. (... I hope)

At the very least, that you'd take the 'guesswork'-factor down a notch. ;)

 

And yes, Ishy was a nihilist, and consequently his books espoused a nihilistic philosophy. It does not follow that he wrote them with an ulterior motive, or that the writing of those books lead to the discovery of Shai'tan. Not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes things are just what they appear to be, and there are no patterns within the patterns. If the world is without value or meaning, and Shai'tan intends to destroy the world, then joining the Shadow was just a logical course of action for Ishy.

Considering what and how you write, I think you're a man who (more then) appreciates logic, I reckon. So explain this to me please, because -again-, I find that obvious to anyone who appreciates logic thinking. Why would a nihilist, in this case Elan Morin who thinks creation, living, all of it, is absolutely pointless and meaningless to the point that he'd rather have it gone then know that his soul will go through a process of endless, meaningless lives, write books? Elan Morin was a man of cold logic and by that same logic that means that if everything is so pointless that you'd rather not go through all of it, there's absolutely no valid reason to write a book. In fact, cold logic means that the only valid reason for a person like Elan Morin to even consider writing books, is with the ulterior motive to end the meaningless, endless cycle. From the nihlistic point of view Elan Morin had, any other reason is absolutely moot to him; why even bother? You're right it's not a conspiracy (why would you even push our dialog in that direction?), it's logic. And using just logic -to the point that it just destroys- fits Elan Morin like a glove as we can read in TGS.

There are many nihilists in the world today, and in the past. Some of them have written books. By writing books, he can share his viewpoint with the world. His viewpoint could lead to three possible courses of action: suicide, live life, or plot to destroy the world. While he eventually opted for course three, I think there is a difference between seizing an opportunity and creating the opportunity yourself - had the Bore never been drilled, would he have been anything other than a philosopher? I see no reason to put him in the mould of supreme mastermind of a plot to unleash Shai'tan in the first place (especially given how convoluted a plan it sounds like - write books, those books become hugely influential, that influence undermines the Pattern, leads to discovery of Shai'tan, others drill through Pattern to touch Shai'tan...).

The problem with bringing our worlds 'nihilists' into the equation are three fundamental differences between our real world and the AoL world RJ created.

One, is the fact that WoT has a Creator that is acknowledged world-wide to exist, whereas our world doesn't.

Two, is that everyone knows Time is cyclic in WoT, while our world has linear time.

Three, is that souls are reborn time without end (unless stopped ofcourse).

Those are pretty hefty differences to be able to compare what you'd consider a nihilist in Real Life or the nihilist Elan Morin is. Normally, I'd rather rely on logic then on what I think are fundamentally flawed comparisons to begin with, regardless that they philosophers share the name 'nihilist'. But for the sake of argument, I'll share my thoughts on your example anyway.

 

In your example you mention the three options Elan Morin has;

"His viewpoint could lead to three possible courses of action: (1) suicide, (2) live life, or (3) plot to destroy the world."

 

Just step in Elan Morin's shoes for a second. I'd think that his take on option 1 is that that's not really an option at all, because basically that'd just mean endless rebirth. Suicide is just a meaningless 'shortcut' to an infinite number of rebirths. How does that solve his problem knowing he'd still go through the agony of meaningless, pointless lives? I think a nihilist in a world where time is cyclic and knowing his soul would be reborn regardless of suicide, that's not a solution at all. Option 2, the "just living" is meaningless in and by itself and once dead through natural death,..well..see point 1.

Option 3 however -if you figure out how Creation works and once you realize that's it's a plausable option- would paradoxally give this life a purpose; a means to a (litteral) end. It's the only option a nihilist who feels himself trapped in an endless cycle of meaningless drivel has and I do think Elan Morin came to that conclusion. Even if writing books to convince enough people of the "Absence of Meaning" was a longshot -because he might have been uncertain his theories regarding Creation/ Uncreation were right-, it's a possible way out! I'd think a man of cold logic would grab it with both hands. Option 1 and 2 just don't cut it.

 

And even IF his theories regarding how to achieve option 3 had been wrong, then what's the loss? Nothing is really lost then, but a meaningless life wasted that was useless otherwise anyway!

Just figuring out how Creation must have it's counterpart -regardless of it's shape or form and if / how it has to be freed- and deducting that unbelief in will weaken Creation and that that -regardless of how that works- could result in total annihilation of everything would be enough. Elan Morin didn't need to know how it all went down as we -the readers- have read it did, but his intend was there nonetheless, I think.

 

I'd be figuring out a way how to gain wide influence easilly available to a large part of the population; writing books is not a bad way to go.

So, Mr Ares. You being a man of reason and logic. Which option would you pick if you stood in Elan Morin's nifty (but meaningless) fancloth shoes?

 

 

and maybe Ishamael figured that out,...

Not a big if; Elan Morin was (one of the if not the) foremost philosopher of the pinacle of civilization! He's had hundreds of years to figure this out. Herid Fel only had a few years. He wasn't too far from the truth, wouldn't you agree?

Bear in mind they lived in different Ages, with access to different information. If whatever it was that lead Fel to his conclusions was based on information Ishy didn't have, then it is entirely reasonable that he could come up with something Ishy couldn't.

That's a good point, and I did consider that (and truth be told, didn't mention it because it would weaken my position). I have nothing against your point, but I still think it's likely -given their profession- and given the fact that Elan Morin was (one of the and possibly the) foremost philosopher of his time, with all the extra years he had that he figured it out. Anway, good point.

Well, I think the point of different information is pretty crucial here. Fel lives in an Age where Shai'tan has acted on the world - from observations of those actions, it is possible to make deductions. Prior to the drilling of the Bore, there would have been little to no information available on Shai'tan. So Elan Morin would lack the observations from which to make solid deductions. Now, during the Collapse, he could make the necessary observations, have a solid foundation for his reasoning. I'm reminded of the opening to The God Delusion where Richard Dawkins mentions that he focused on theologians that made arguments for God's existence, rather than those who took His existence as a given, and make arguments as to His nature. Prior to the Collapse and the Bore, Elan Morin would have to make arguments as to existence first. Fel and Ishamael post-drilling of the Bore have evidence of existence, as so can make arguments as to His nature. And that is the problem with your theory - despite little to no basis for his arguments, Elan was able to make accurate deductions as to Shai'tan's nature, and from those deductions enact a plan to unleash Him upon the world. Surely it is more plausible that when he had a basis for his deductions, he joined the Shadow - he worked out what was facing the world, and aligned himself with that being, but he wasn't the one responsible for the discovery that lead to the drilling in the first place. He merely took advantage of an opportunity.

There was evil done in the AoL, but it was very little and never on a big scale, due to the orderly manner in wich society operated. So there were very small indirect clues there, even for Elan Morin to pick up if you even need them. But well, like I said earlier regarding this point, you're totally right here. It was lots easier for Fel and yes, after the drilling of the Bore, there was direct proof of Shai'tan. So I agree with you here. While your version is absolutely more likely in and by itself, I still think -while less plausible- my version is also a decent possibility and given the whole story plus the extra time Elan Morin had compared to Fel, I think is what really happened. That'll just have to do...or not.

 

(OT Sidenote: coincidently I finished reading 'The Ancestor's Tale' by Dawkins weeks ago, (I have read 'The Greatest Show on Earth' about a year ago but no other books from Dakwins) but haven't read The God Delusion (yet). Did make me grin you've read Dawkins! I've also just finished 'The Grand Design' by Hawkins e.a. Both were good reads although I liked Dawkins book better because I just felt I'd learned more new stuff. The Grand Design was ..well.. very nicely written, but if you're already well aware of the current situation in science-land you won't read any new stuff actually. (How simple and eloquent his explantion about how time can have a 'start' and yet doesn't need a real beginning was sheer and utter brilliance though!).

 

(continued in next post!.. I tried to post full reply but hit a quote limit)...

[Mik]

(continued post)...

 

And if nothing else, they are different men with different viewpoints. Different people come to different conclusions, they reason in different ways, and sometimes things occur to one person that don't occur to another - even things which, in hindsight, appear rather obvious. So yes, again, it is guesswork, not based on evidence.

I think your conclusion here is comming on way too strong. Same as with the Chaos/ Order conclusion you wrote. Yes, different men can reach different conclusions. But they don't have to. I showed Herid Fel came to the conclusion that; "Belief and order give strenght" as a way of fighting what we know is 'the embodiment of Chaos'. Logic suggests -as I wrote above- that if Fel can figure that out in just a few years -give what we know about Elan Morin's actions and thoughts and given what we know Shai'tan to be- that Elan Morin came to a conclusion that pointed in the same directions and that reaching a conclusion like that is the only plausible, logical reason for a nihilist to even consider writing books.

True, different men don't have to come to different conclusions. But the point is that you cannot say one smart man woken this out, therefore another smart man is sure to. They were different men, with different beliefs, and access to different knowledge, and it is entirely plausible that they could come to different conclusions.

No, not sure to.....but given the titles of the books Elan Morin wrote and what we learn from Fel..to me, it looks like they did reach very similar conclusions. Elan Morin just focused on the Disassembly of Reason (Unreason) / Absence (of meaning) part whereas Fel focuses on the Reason / Belief (of meaning).

 

And, after all, nihilists do write books for reasons other than master plans to bring about world destruction.

See the previous talk about nihilism.

 

...and maybe he wrote some books..

Fact. There's no maybe. Elan Morin did write some books and the topics mentioned fit nicely with what I wrote above.

His books (among them Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and the Disassembly of Reason), while too esoteric for wide popularity, were extremely influential in many areas beyond philosophy, especially in the arts.

...which weren't widely read in order to weaken in,..

Wrong. Just because they were to hard to understand for wide polularity, does in no way mean they weren't widely read. In fact, the text literally states his books were "extremely influential in many areas". Again, with a world-wide society of billions, that means loads of readers he had an extreme influence on.

Attempting to manipulate my point via selective editing doesn't make your point any better. I did not deny that Elan Morin wrote books. Writing books that weren't widely read was one point, not two.

I apologize for tearing one point in two. It was not intentional and I'm ashamed to have made the mistake. I guess I jumped at the opportunity to prove a point wrong. It was not intentional manipulation of your point. Even though we busted heads more often then not and you have an irky way of crawling under my skin, I respect what you say (not how you say :P) too much to ever try something like that. Having said that... moving on to content:

And yes, them not being widely read is what was said. They were influential, yes, but that does not make me wrong. It is not a counter to my point. If I wrote a book that was only read by a handful of people, but one of the people went on to make a hugely influential film that was influenced by my book, then I have indirectly influenced a lot of people. but my book was not widely read. Of course, Nietzsche was very influential on the Nazis, but their philosophy was very different to what he proposed. His concept of the ubermensch being on individual lines rather than racial, for example.

Still, it said he was extremely influential in many areas. Again, simple logic suggest that with a population of billions that's loads of people, regardless of what you say. Taking your example about the nazis; they would just be one of many areas Elan Morin had extreme influence on. *shrugs*

And about the film example. That's slightly twisting what was said in the books: Elan Morin's own writing had extreme influence in many areas. Where does it say 'books/ films/ plays based on Elan Morin's work'? Anyway, I see your point, but I don't think it changes my point in any way;

Extreme influence in many areas in a population of billions still equals lots and lots of influence.

Yes, he was very influential. But what I said was that he wasn't widely read. Widely read and influential aren't the same thing. And the film example was just that - an example of how his works could be influential (as was the Nazi example). If I wrote a book that was read by everyone at, say Cambridge, but no-one who wasn't studying there in a given year, my work would not be widely read. But it would be read by the politicians, civil servants, spies, businessmen, actors, film makers, writers, and teachers of the future. So I could potentially be very influential in many areas.

I just don´t see why you can´t accept that ´influence in many areas -regardless if extreme or not- with a population of billions = a lot of people (Threads)? It's so simple really.

 

But my message could be grossly distorted, and that grossly distorted message could be what is taken away. I control what i say, but not what other people interpret my words to mean. Worse still from the point of view of an Elan Morin master plan is that he does so at a further remove - if the masses read my words I can appeal directly to them, but if my beliefs are being relayed to wider society through the lens of others perception, I am even further removed from what people ultimately take away. The further away from me it is, the more interpretations there are, so the more my message is distorted. To rely on that for a plan is rather hit and miss, I'd say.

And you're accusing me of guesswork? What's this then? I mean, I don't mind speculation at all truth be told, but I don't see why you're making such a difficult issue out of a very simple statement. If you're that bothered by 'influential in many areas, but not widely popular' in a huge (and I mean huuuge) population, meaning lots of people.... just give me a ballpark figure for just the 'Art community' and the 'Philosophy community' in the Age of Legends. I don't know how many more areas there were and how big they were, but I'm guessing the numbers for art and philosophy might be enough already, given about what was deemed important in AoL.

 

And people respecting what I say but not how I say it, well, that happens quite a lot.

(I snickered....for a long time too!... just thought you might like to know)

 

So even if Ishamael was influential, it could easily be the case that hugely corrupted versions of what he was saying are what was taken away from his writings - so even if he tried to undermine AoL culture through his writings, it's a massive stretch to think that it would work.

Now this is speculation actually. I don't think it's a massive stretch at all.

and maybe ... their influence was enough to cause Mierin and Beidomon to be able to sense Shai'tan..

Ok. So this bit is speculation. I don't see the problem of all the reasoning above leads to this, considering there had been millions of Channelers for thousands of years. *shrugs* Fine. It's a theory. Sue me.

The problem is that the reasoning above does not lead to this. You don't have a logical progression,...

Must. resist. urge. to. snap. *counts to ten* *counts to twenty* *takes deep breath*

I just can't for the life of me see how you come to that conclusion. In real life people say I'm often too much logic. My work is based on combining logic with product development. It's.. just.. I honestly don't see how someone who obviously has a decent head on his shoulders can say that. Let me just politely disagree and have me sigh behind my keyboard for the next hour or so...

if x then y, if y then z. What you have is "if x, then y is possible, but so is q. Or b for that matter. But I think y is correct. Also, I think y causes z, just because it's a cool idea." There are millions of humans on earth, we have been here for tens of thousands of years. We still make discoveries. We create new technologies, we build on what has been learnt before. Aginor could not create Shadowspawn in the Third Age because the technological base was gone. He didn't have the tool she needed to build the tools, and so on. Tamyrlin might not have had the tools to drill the Bore, or sense Shai'tan. But what he creates leads to further creations and discoveries, which lead to further creations and discoveries, which lead to eventually someone being in the right place at the right time with the right tools to find that new source of Power.

Blabbertalk to start with. Now this is baseless speculation. The Age of Legends was at it's peak for longer then we -on earth- can write. Comparing the AoL to our world and to the 3rd Age is like comparing apples and....orangesspaceships

But the AoL didn't know everything. They still had researchers and universities and so on. There were still things to learn, discoveries to be made. To say that the only thing that might lead to a new discovery of this magnitude, the only reasonable change that could be made, is the writings of a single philosopher is quite a stretch. It's surely more reasonable to think of this scientific discovery in the sense of it being akin to the Higgs-Boson of the AoL. Someone had to get around to building the LHC. Some other discovery could as easily lead to that discovery, some new technological advance could make the technology needed to drill the Bore a reality rather than a theory. Maybe it's just me, but I see a book being written that alters the fabric of reality to the extent that an evil god can manifest to be a bit more unlikely than just some new advances in science and technology are made, and they lead to more new discoveries.

Are you kidding me? Do you honestly compare both male and female channelers simply sensing a Power source -a passive act all throughout the books of just feeling something- to one of greatest technological advancements of our world? *bites own hand*

Mr Ares; all Mierin did was sense a Power that was dangled in front of her nose. All that probably took a little time was figure out how to reach it.

 

And with that, I have to bow out for tonight. It's been too long already (although I enjoyed it!), but I got someone staring at my back that could make an Aes Sedai wimper by just trying to stare her down.

 

I'll answer the other post (also from the others) tomorrow I hope!

Cheers,

Mik

[Thrasymachus]

I like interesting theories, and this one sure is interesting. Just one thing. The Old Tongue word for "heart" is "cue," as in cuendillar (heartstone) or Cuebiyar (the Heart of a people/nation/etc.). Lots of examples of this. Los Valdar Cuibiyari = Forward the Heart Guard, Mordero dagain pas duente cuebiyari = literally "death fear none holds my heart" or "my heart holds no fear of death."

 

Tel meaning "world" is no trouble, and seems reasonable.

 

amon is not seen elsewhere in the OT examples we have, where we're given a translation, but aman is, as in siswai'aman (spears of the dragon). It means "dragon." And Telamon was Lews Therin's third name, awarded to him for his deeds of service. It means literally, "Dragon of the world." Lews Therin was known as the Dragon even in his own day, and well before he went crazy.

 

Since Ba'alzamon clearly also partakes of the "dragon" suffix, it seems likely that it means "enemy of the dragon" or something similar. Though I do agree with you that it is likely an OT word, or at least derives from OT words and grammar structure.

[Mr Ares]

Why would ishy need to plan on unleashing the DO for his work to have that effect? That is even worse speculation than anything mik said. Unless i missed it, mik was saying that the weakening of the pattern happened as a result of ishy's writings, not that his writings were written with that intent

No, it is exactly what Mik said. As Mik said, why else would a man of his beliefs write books?

 

*whistles*

Just read both posts and let me just start with saying; niiice.

I don't understand for the life of me why we usually ended up in a bloody melee where after a while I just thought "forget it" and left the forum (Shivan the Hunter & Equal yet not come to mind...if you recall).

In part it's because we look at things in different ways - even if we apply the same methods, we come to different conclusions because we start from different premises. And arguments can often have a way of reinforcing positions, driving viewpoints that start out not too dissimilar further apart because neither side wants to back down. My blunt manner exacerbates this problem, by making people more defensive than they might otherwise be.

 

I'm going to leave the posts/replies in tact, so this will probably be two (maybe three) posts. I hope admin/ mods won't mind the double postings. (if you guys do.. let me know)

Anyway... here I go...

 

The most damning thing about this idea is, of course, that there is absolutely no evidence to support it. Just guesswork.

Well hello there, kind sir! Let's sift through your subtleties again, shall we?

 

Maybe if belief and order give strength to the Pattern then disbelief and chaos weaken it,....

Pure and utter guesswork absolutely not supported?

It's solid logic based on three well-established facts actually;

1 - RJ himself called Shai'tan the 'dark counterpart' of Creation. I could grab that quote easily but I'm pretty sure you've seen it.

2 - We've seen Chaos mentioned -and work- in the Shadow's advantage throughout the books. Even the BWB starts mentioning chaos welling up up the moment Shai'tans prison is pierced.

3 - We have Herid Fel -a philosopher, how nice!- mentioning "Belief and Order give strenght" while he's actually researching how to deal with the Shadow properly.

 

You can hardly call combining facts 1, 2 & 3 'pure and utter guesswork absolutely not supported'.

Chaos gives strenght to Shai'tan and weakens the Pattern. That fits with that Fel wrote about Order giving strenght to Rand's cause. That in turn lends credibility to Fel's assesment that Belief gives strenght to Rand's cause as well. And simple logic -combined with the fact that we've seen fact 1 literally play out here- lends credit that Disbelief strenghtens the Shadow.

 

Coincidently, Elan Morin -also a well known, well respected philosopher of his time (a well known fact again, I might add!)- wrote some books that -given it's titles- try to tell the readers of those books that Reason and Meanig are absent or folly.

Tying those together is a decent theory and not guesswork.

Actually, Mik, guesswork is exactly what it is. Chaos does not weaken the Pattern, so much as it weakens the forces of the Light. Divide and conquer. Belief and order give strength, not so much to the Pattern, but to the forces of the Light, to make them better able to resist the advances of chaos. As plausible a theory as your own, and based on the same premises. Just as much a bunch of guesswork.

Actually, Mr Ares, what you wrote isn't guesswork at all; we see your explanation of how Chaos and Order work play out throughout the books, so why would you call that 'guesswork'? But you see, what you wrote isn't the whole truth. And -again- I'm surprised I'm actually the one who has to come up with quotes for something so, so obvious. You know these books well. And from what I can tell you're a very intelligent man. So why do I have to explain it to you in such detail... while I'm sitting here thinking you wouldn't even need two sentences.

Anyway. Here I go again:

 

Let me just grab two quotes (there's probably quite a few more, but there will do by themselves just fine):

 

The fabric of society began to unravel under the onslaught of the Dark One's influence. A large part of the horror came from the simple fact that for many years, no one knew why this was all happening; chaos seemed to be welling up from nowhere, without cause.

Some people did begin to suspect, and eventually to know, the cause, but unfortunately most of these were people who saw possible gain for themselves in the Dark One's freedom

 

The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of reason and logic, the breaker of balance, the unmaker of order.

Even without Herid Fel's words about 'Belief and Order' in direct relationship to how to defeat the Dark One, these quotes alone prove my point. Your points about chaos and order are valid ones (and hardly 'speculation', I might add), but those don't disprove mine in the slightest.

I'd say if anything the first quote supports me. It is, after all, the fabric of society, not the Pattern, that is being unravelled by the chaos. The second quote can be interpreted either way. Now, it might seem obvious to you that certain things are true. Many things seem obvious to me that are unnoticed by others. It is always helpful to try to explain our reasoning on things that seem so intuitive to us, but so counter-intuitive to people we are trying to discuss with. The leap you have made is that belief and order give strength means strength to the Pattern - people who don't start from your viewpoint simply see a counter-intuitive leap, guesswork, or some such.

The thing I don't understand about your response is how this post (and the previous post) suggest that 'the fabric of society' and 'the Pattern' are two distinct seperate entities that do not relate to one another. The way I see it is that 'the fabric of society' is a big part of the Pattern itself. The Wheel (Time) weaves fabric that is constructed directly from lives and events (Threads) into the Pattern! They are not two seperate things and that's why my previous post said you were more then half right to say what you said about order and chaos, but that it wasn't the whole of it. And that it certainly wasn't guesswork!

 

Let me grab a quote that shows us how the Wheel weaves the Pattern:

The Wheel is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality

I don't see how you can state that Chaos can unravel the fabric of society, but that that's not the Pattern is... well.. I don't understand how and why you think that. Then there's the wording of that sentence I quoted earlier; the "fabric" of society "unraveled" under the unslaught of the influence of the Dark One himself. The way that is worded also fits with how I percieve the Pattern and how Time -the Wheel- weaves it; Threads of events and lives (society if you will) are being unraveled, harming the fabric of the Pattern.

 

On top of that, said quote directly linked the Dark One as the source of the Chaos twice. It was the Dark One's direct influence (without anyone realizing) that made 'fabric unravel'. And the quote said that without cause, chaos welled up from nowhere. So that's why, yes, that I still think it's obvious how I percieved things. I'm hoping that by showing -with that quote- how I envision 'the fabric of society' to be an important part of what the Pattern actually is, that you at the very least see where I'm comming from.

Actually, now that we come to the heart of the difference perspectives (I think), you might actually agree. (... I hope)

At the very least, that you'd take the 'guesswork'-factor down a notch. ;)

I would say that the concepts of the fabric of society and the fabric of the Pattern are quite distinct - while both society and the Pattern are concepts which are related on some level, people being threads in both, they are still separate. A solitary human being might be separate from society, but by his existence is a part of the Pattern. Some animals are social by nature, others are not, but even those animals that do not form societies still have threads in the Pattern. So while human social groups will be reflected in the Pattern, the overlap between the two concepts is not absolute - they are different things. If every human in the world went our separate ways and had nothing to do with one another, human society would cease to exist, but the Pattern would endure. Consequently, because I see them as being different concepts, I don't think it follows that an attack on one is necessarily an attack on the other.

 

 

And yes, Ishy was a nihilist, and consequently his books espoused a nihilistic philosophy. It does not follow that he wrote them with an ulterior motive, or that the writing of those books lead to the discovery of Shai'tan. Not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes things are just what they appear to be, and there are no patterns within the patterns. If the world is without value or meaning, and Shai'tan intends to destroy the world, then joining the Shadow was just a logical course of action for Ishy.

Considering what and how you write, I think you're a man who (more then) appreciates logic, I reckon. So explain this to me please, because -again-, I find that obvious to anyone who appreciates logic thinking. Why would a nihilist, in this case Elan Morin who thinks creation, living, all of it, is absolutely pointless and meaningless to the point that he'd rather have it gone then know that his soul will go through a process of endless, meaningless lives, write books? Elan Morin was a man of cold logic and by that same logic that means that if everything is so pointless that you'd rather not go through all of it, there's absolutely no valid reason to write a book. In fact, cold logic means that the only valid reason for a person like Elan Morin to even consider writing books, is with the ulterior motive to end the meaningless, endless cycle. From the nihlistic point of view Elan Morin had, any other reason is absolutely moot to him; why even bother? You're right it's not a conspiracy (why would you even push our dialog in that direction?), it's logic. And using just logic -to the point that it just destroys- fits Elan Morin like a glove as we can read in TGS.

There are many nihilists in the world today, and in the past. Some of them have written books. By writing books, he can share his viewpoint with the world. His viewpoint could lead to three possible courses of action: suicide, live life, or plot to destroy the world. While he eventually opted for course three, I think there is a difference between seizing an opportunity and creating the opportunity yourself - had the Bore never been drilled, would he have been anything other than a philosopher? I see no reason to put him in the mould of supreme mastermind of a plot to unleash Shai'tan in the first place (especially given how convoluted a plan it sounds like - write books, those books become hugely influential, that influence undermines the Pattern, leads to discovery of Shai'tan, others drill through Pattern to touch Shai'tan...).

The problem with bringing our worlds 'nihilists' into the equation are three fundamental differences between our real world and the AoL world RJ created.

One, is the fact that WoT has a Creator that is acknowledged world-wide to exist, whereas our world doesn't.

Two, is that everyone knows Time is cyclic in WoT, while our world has linear time.

Three, is that souls are reborn time without end (unless stopped ofcourse).

Those are pretty hefty differences to be able to compare what you'd consider a nihilist in Real Life or the nihilist Elan Morin is. Normally, I'd rather rely on logic then on what I think are fundamentally flawed comparisons to begin with, regardless that they philosophers share the name 'nihilist'. But for the sake of argument, I'll share my thoughts on your example anyway.

 

In your example you mention the three options Elan Morin has;

"His viewpoint could lead to three possible courses of action: (1) suicide, (2) live life, or (3) plot to destroy the world."

 

Just step in Elan Morin's shoes for a second. I'd think that his take on option 1 is that that's not really an option at all, because basically that'd just mean endless rebirth. Suicide is just a meaningless 'shortcut' to an infinite number of rebirths. How does that solve his problem knowing he'd still go through the agony of meaningless, pointless lives? I think a nihilist in a world where time is cyclic and knowing his soul would be reborn regardless of suicide, that's not a solution at all. Option 2, the "just living" is meaningless in and by itself and once dead through natural death,..well..see point 1.

Option 3 however -if you figure out how Creation works and once you realize that's it's a plausable option- would paradoxally give this life a purpose; a means to a (litteral) end. It's the only option a nihilist who feels himself trapped in an endless cycle of meaningless drivel has and I do think Elan Morin came to that conclusion. Even if writing books to convince enough people of the "Absence of Meaning" was a longshot -because he might have been uncertain his theories regarding Creation/ Uncreation were right-, it's a possible way out! I'd think a man of cold logic would grab it with both hands. Option 1 and 2 just don't cut it.

 

And even IF his theories regarding how to achieve option 3 had been wrong, then what's the loss? Nothing is really lost then, but a meaningless life wasted that was useless otherwise anyway!

Just figuring out how Creation must have it's counterpart -regardless of it's shape or form and if / how it has to be freed- and deducting that unbelief in will weaken Creation and that that -regardless of how that works- could result in total annihilation of everything would be enough. Elan Morin didn't need to know how it all went down as we -the readers- have read it did, but his intend was there nonetheless, I think.

 

I'd be figuring out a way how to gain wide influence easilly available to a large part of the population; writing books is not a bad way to go.

So, Mr Ares. You being a man of reason and logic. Which option would you pick if you stood in Elan Morin's nifty (but meaningless) fancloth shoes?

The mere fact of existence being meaningless does not mean that existence is intolerable. Bear in mind that while cyclical time is something that we can be pretty damn sure doesn't exist in our world, various cultures have believed in it. Some of those cultures have probably produced nihilists. Those nihilists would be faced with the same dilemma Elan was faced with. The mere fact of existence being meaningless doesn't itself indicate a desire to destroy existence. One could simply resign oneself to the fact that nothing one does matters, and carry on. A lot of people do just that. If you want to destroy the world, and your only chance is a long shot then it is logical to take the long shot rather than do nothing, because by taking the long shot you have a chance of success. But if Elan only later came to the desire to destroy the world, or didn't see it as a possibility that his books could accomplish, or something he could achieve at all, then the motivation you ascribe to him would not apply. Saying if he was aware that spreading unbelief and chaos would weaken the fabric of the Pattern he would do it is all well and good, but it is still a big if. If he was not aware, then his motivation is gone. There are big gaps in what we know of the Chosen and the AoL. We do not have the information to say, with any degree of certainty, that Elan knew enough to make the leap that his books would weaken the Pattern. And if his books aren't written for the purpose of weakening the Pattern, he needs a different motivation to write them. It's things like this that tend to from the foundations of our disagreements. Your reasoning is logical, but your premises are things which we do not know to be true. If Elan knew (or had reasonable suspicion) that chaos and unbelief would weaken the Pattern, then he might have written his books with the intention of weakening the Pattern. But we cannot say that the premise is true. Therefore we do not know if the conclusion is either.

 

and maybe Ishamael figured that out,...

Not a big if; Elan Morin was (one of the if not the) foremost philosopher of the pinacle of civilization! He's had hundreds of years to figure this out. Herid Fel only had a few years. He wasn't too far from the truth, wouldn't you agree?

Bear in mind they lived in different Ages, with access to different information. If whatever it was that lead Fel to his conclusions was based on information Ishy didn't have, then it is entirely reasonable that he could come up with something Ishy couldn't.

That's a good point, and I did consider that (and truth be told, didn't mention it because it would weaken my position). I have nothing against your point, but I still think it's likely -given their profession- and given the fact that Elan Morin was (one of the and possibly the) foremost philosopher of his time, with all the extra years he had that he figured it out. Anway, good point.

Well, I think the point of different information is pretty crucial here. Fel lives in an Age where Shai'tan has acted on the world - from observations of those actions, it is possible to make deductions. Prior to the drilling of the Bore, there would have been little to no information available on Shai'tan. So Elan Morin would lack the observations from which to make solid deductions. Now, during the Collapse, he could make the necessary observations, have a solid foundation for his reasoning. I'm reminded of the opening to The God Delusion where Richard Dawkins mentions that he focused on theologians that made arguments for God's existence, rather than those who took His existence as a given, and make arguments as to His nature. Prior to the Collapse and the Bore, Elan Morin would have to make arguments as to existence first. Fel and Ishamael post-drilling of the Bore have evidence of existence, as so can make arguments as to His nature. And that is the problem with your theory - despite little to no basis for his arguments, Elan was able to make accurate deductions as to Shai'tan's nature, and from those deductions enact a plan to unleash Him upon the world. Surely it is more plausible that when he had a basis for his deductions, he joined the Shadow - he worked out what was facing the world, and aligned himself with that being, but he wasn't the one responsible for the discovery that lead to the drilling in the first place. He merely took advantage of an opportunity.

There was evil done in the AoL, but it was very little and never on a big scale, due to the orderly manner in wich society operated. So there were very small indirect clues there, even for Elan Morin to pick up if you even need them. But well, like I said earlier regarding this point, you're totally right here. It was lots easier for Fel and yes, after the drilling of the Bore, there was direct proof of Shai'tan. So I agree with you here. While your version is absolutely more likely in and by itself, I still think -while less plausible- my version is also a decent possibility and given the whole story plus the extra time Elan Morin had compared to Fel, I think is what really happened. That'll just have to do...or not.

 

(OT Sidenote: coincidently I finished reading 'The Ancestor's Tale' by Dawkins weeks ago, (I have read 'The Greatest Show on Earth' about a year ago but no other books from Dakwins) but haven't read The God Delusion (yet). Did make me grin you've read Dawkins! I've also just finished 'The Grand Design' by Hawkins e.a. Both were good reads although I liked Dawkins book better because I just felt I'd learned more new stuff. The Grand Design was ..well.. very nicely written, but if you're already well aware of the current situation in science-land you won't read any new stuff actually. (How simple and eloquent his explantion about how time can have a 'start' and yet doesn't need a real beginning was sheer and utter brilliance though!).

There being evil done in the AoL indicates that humans are capable of evil, it doesn't mean that evil must be the result of an outside actor. Even with our knowledge of Shai'tan, that remains true - there are evils in the world not born of Him. And while your theory is conceivably true, Elan might have worked things out given his intelligence, and the time he had, that we don't know he did work it out is the very problem I initially put to you. Lack of evidence. We cannot be certain, or even very sure, that the premises are true, but if they are true then this is a reasonable conclusion.

[Mr Ares]

(continued post)...

 

And if nothing else, they are different men with different viewpoints. Different people come to different conclusions, they reason in different ways, and sometimes things occur to one person that don't occur to another - even things which, in hindsight, appear rather obvious. So yes, again, it is guesswork, not based on evidence.

I think your conclusion here is comming on way too strong. Same as with the Chaos/ Order conclusion you wrote. Yes, different men can reach different conclusions. But they don't have to. I showed Herid Fel came to the conclusion that; "Belief and order give strenght" as a way of fighting what we know is 'the embodiment of Chaos'. Logic suggests -as I wrote above- that if Fel can figure that out in just a few years -give what we know about Elan Morin's actions and thoughts and given what we know Shai'tan to be- that Elan Morin came to a conclusion that pointed in the same directions and that reaching a conclusion like that is the only plausible, logical reason for a nihilist to even consider writing books.

True, different men don't have to come to different conclusions. But the point is that you cannot say one smart man woken this out, therefore another smart man is sure to. They were different men, with different beliefs, and access to different knowledge, and it is entirely plausible that they could come to different conclusions.

No, not sure to.....but given the titles of the books Elan Morin wrote and what we learn from Fel..to me, it looks like they did reach very similar conclusions. Elan Morin just focused on the Disassembly of Reason (Unreason) / Absence (of meaning) part whereas Fel focuses on the Reason / Belief (of meaning).

Fair enough. Their conclusions had similarities and differences.

 

...and maybe he wrote some books..

Fact. There's no maybe. Elan Morin did write some books and the topics mentioned fit nicely with what I wrote above.

His books (among them Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and the Disassembly of Reason), while too esoteric for wide popularity, were extremely influential in many areas beyond philosophy, especially in the arts.

...which weren't widely read in order to weaken in,..

Wrong. Just because they were to hard to understand for wide polularity, does in no way mean they weren't widely read. In fact, the text literally states his books were "extremely influential in many areas". Again, with a world-wide society of billions, that means loads of readers he had an extreme influence on.

Attempting to manipulate my point via selective editing doesn't make your point any better. I did not deny that Elan Morin wrote books. Writing books that weren't widely read was one point, not two.

I apologize for tearing one point in two. It was not intentional and I'm ashamed to have made the mistake. I guess I jumped at the opportunity to prove a point wrong. It was not intentional manipulation of your point. Even though we busted heads more often then not and you have an irky way of crawling under my skin, I respect what you say (not how you say :P) too much to ever try something like that. Having said that... moving on to content:

And yes, them not being widely read is what was said. They were influential, yes, but that does not make me wrong. It is not a counter to my point. If I wrote a book that was only read by a handful of people, but one of the people went on to make a hugely influential film that was influenced by my book, then I have indirectly influenced a lot of people. but my book was not widely read. Of course, Nietzsche was very influential on the Nazis, but their philosophy was very different to what he proposed. His concept of the ubermensch being on individual lines rather than racial, for example.

Still, it said he was extremely influential in many areas. Again, simple logic suggest that with a population of billions that's loads of people, regardless of what you say. Taking your example about the nazis; they would just be one of many areas Elan Morin had extreme influence on. *shrugs*

And about the film example. That's slightly twisting what was said in the books: Elan Morin's own writing had extreme influence in many areas. Where does it say 'books/ films/ plays based on Elan Morin's work'? Anyway, I see your point, but I don't think it changes my point in any way;

Extreme influence in many areas in a population of billions still equals lots and lots of influence.

Yes, he was very influential. But what I said was that he wasn't widely read. Widely read and influential aren't the same thing. And the film example was just that - an example of how his works could be influential (as was the Nazi example). If I wrote a book that was read by everyone at, say Cambridge, but no-one who wasn't studying there in a given year, my work would not be widely read. But it would be read by the politicians, civil servants, spies, businessmen, actors, film makers, writers, and teachers of the future. So I could potentially be very influential in many areas.

I just don´t see why you can´t accept that ´influence in many areas -regardless if extreme or not- with a population of billions = a lot of people (Threads)? It's so simple really.

It's because they mean different things - his books might not have been read by many people in absolute numbers, but the people who read it were strongly influenced by it, and they themselves went on to have a great influence upon society and culture.

 

 

But my message could be grossly distorted, and that grossly distorted message could be what is taken away. I control what i say, but not what other people interpret my words to mean. Worse still from the point of view of an Elan Morin master plan is that he does so at a further remove - if the masses read my words I can appeal directly to them, but if my beliefs are being relayed to wider society through the lens of others perception, I am even further removed from what people ultimately take away. The further away from me it is, the more interpretations there are, so the more my message is distorted. To rely on that for a plan is rather hit and miss, I'd say.

And you're accusing me of guesswork? What's this then? I mean, I don't mind speculation at all truth be told, but I don't see why you're making such a difficult issue out of a very simple statement. If you're that bothered by 'influential in many areas, but not widely popular' in a huge (and I mean huuuge) population, meaning lots of people.... just give me a ballpark figure for just the 'Art community' and the 'Philosophy community' in the Age of Legends. I don't know how many more areas there were and how big they were, but I'm guessing the numbers for art and philosophy might be enough already, given about what was deemed important in AoL.

Remember, he needn't be read by an entire community. Not every artist in the world has to read his books. The numbers of people who read him could still be very low in absolute terms without conflicting with the idea of him being influential.

 

 

So even if Ishamael was influential, it could easily be the case that hugely corrupted versions of what he was saying are what was taken away from his writings - so even if he tried to undermine AoL culture through his writings, it's a massive stretch to think that it would work.

Now this is speculation actually. I don't think it's a massive stretch at all.

and maybe ... their influence was enough to cause Mierin and Beidomon to be able to sense Shai'tan..

Ok. So this bit is speculation. I don't see the problem of all the reasoning above leads to this, considering there had been millions of Channelers for thousands of years. *shrugs* Fine. It's a theory. Sue me.

The problem is that the reasoning above does not lead to this. You don't have a logical progression,...

Must. resist. urge. to. snap. *counts to ten* *counts to twenty* *takes deep breath*

I just can't for the life of me see how you come to that conclusion. In real life people say I'm often too much logic. My work is based on combining logic with product development. It's.. just.. I honestly don't see how someone who obviously has a decent head on his shoulders can say that. Let me just politely disagree and have me sigh behind my keyboard for the next hour or so...

if x then y, if y then z. What you have is "if x, then y is possible, but so is q. Or b for that matter. But I think y is correct. Also, I think y causes z, just because it's a cool idea." There are millions of humans on earth, we have been here for tens of thousands of years. We still make discoveries. We create new technologies, we build on what has been learnt before. Aginor could not create Shadowspawn in the Third Age because the technological base was gone. He didn't have the tool she needed to build the tools, and so on. Tamyrlin might not have had the tools to drill the Bore, or sense Shai'tan. But what he creates leads to further creations and discoveries, which lead to further creations and discoveries, which lead to eventually someone being in the right place at the right time with the right tools to find that new source of Power.

Blabbertalk to start with. Now this is baseless speculation. The Age of Legends was at it's peak for longer then we -on earth- can write. Comparing the AoL to our world and to the 3rd Age is like comparing apples and....orangesspaceships

But the AoL didn't know everything. They still had researchers and universities and so on. There were still things to learn, discoveries to be made. To say that the only thing that might lead to a new discovery of this magnitude, the only reasonable change that could be made, is the writings of a single philosopher is quite a stretch. It's surely more reasonable to think of this scientific discovery in the sense of it being akin to the Higgs-Boson of the AoL. Someone had to get around to building the LHC. Some other discovery could as easily lead to that discovery, some new technological advance could make the technology needed to drill the Bore a reality rather than a theory. Maybe it's just me, but I see a book being written that alters the fabric of reality to the extent that an evil god can manifest to be a bit more unlikely than just some new advances in science and technology are made, and they lead to more new discoveries.

Are you kidding me? Do you honestly compare both male and female channelers simply sensing a Power source -a passive act all throughout the books of just feeling something- to one of greatest technological advancements of our world? *bites own hand*

Mr Ares; all Mierin did was sense a Power that was dangled in front of her nose. All that probably took a little time was figure out how to reach it.

Sensing saidar and saidin is passive. But the TP has differences to the OP. It can only be sensed by the person holding it, while any male channeler can feel another man holding it, and the mere ability for another woman to hold saidar can be sensed, whether she is currently holding or not. Could the TP be sensed by anyone? It would be unlike Shai'tan to make it available to all, we have seen no channelers be aware of its presence during the series save those who can touch it. Rand was aware of the TP's existence prior to TGS, for example, but he couldn't feel it there. Once he had touched it, he was tempted to touch it again, but before that first touch there was nothing. They became aware of the existence of the TP somehow. We don't know how. Nor do we have a reliable basis for speculation.

[FarShainMael]

Why would a nihilist, in this case Elan Morin who thinks creation, living, all of it, is absolutely pointless and meaningless to the point that he'd rather have it gone then know that his soul will go through a process of endless, meaningless lives, write books? Elan Morin was a man of cold logic and by that same logic that means that if everything is so pointless that you'd rather not go through all of it, there's absolutely no valid reason to write a book.

 

There are many nihilists in the world today, and in the past. Some of them have written books. By writing books, he can share his viewpoint with the world.

 

But why would he bother? What would be the point?

 

Yes, there are many people who claim to be nihilists around in the RW (I knew one personally) and many of them have written books; but surely, a true nihilist, one who really believes what he espouses, would simply lose the will to live?

 

IMO, someone who calls himself a nihilist (which Elan Morin didn't, IIRC) but is still alive, and motivated to write books (or indeed motivated to do ANYTHING!), isn't nihilist, but destructive.

 

Accordingly, I think Elan Morin's motives in writing his books were indeed destructive. I don't think, though, that he had invoking the DO in mind specifically, though when the Bore was drilled its true nature was probably a welcome surprise (though again, why would a a nihilist welcome anything..). Nor do I think that Lanfear/Meirin had any such motivation herself; she was after power, pure and simple.

[Mik]

@Mr Ares - 'part 2'

 

I think I have to start with saying up front; thanks for your very skeptical interrogation of my posts. I don't think I've ever viewed your posts as such because of their tone and my own inability to -not- see all the connections.....but still, I just recently started to admire the way you manage to peel it off in a way I myself find next to impossible. In my mind I just see those 'patterns within the pattern'. It's hard to peel it off to all those individual aspects when they seem to form a whole to start with. (I'm not making sense again, but I just had to write it anyway. It's supposed to be a compliment...although it probably sounds like high-horsed banter)

 

And part 2:

Also, it's equally unsupported to say that Telamon means World's Heart...

Well... considering the Dragon is the Champion of Light, we have the Eye of the World and everything revolves around him and there's even loads of references that state 'He is at the heart of it', I'd hardly call it unsupported. But whatever floats your warship, self proclaimed god of war. Tel'amon.

What. A. Big. Leap. Of. Faith. that was! Wow! ;)

Yes, Rand is at the heart of it.

Ewww. Let's not forget that "The Dragon has been reborn on Dragonmount". Lews Therin Telamon is the Dragon. Rand is the sheepherder born with the same soul. That means Rand is at the heart of it too, but that doesn't exclude Lews Therin.

 

So which part of Rand al'Thor means World's Heart?

The part that's still Lews Therin ofcourse; the part that 'never did die the final death Lews Therin himself laments so often he deserves'.

The point is that why isn't it in Rand's name, considering it is he, not LTT, that is supposedly being referred to?

Aha! Hrmm. I think the heart (hehe..pun intended) of our different perspectives (why you say 'guesswork' and I say 'deduction') lies in what we think 'The Dragon Reborn' actually means. Gitarra's Foretelling in New Spring tells us:

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"

 

Lews Therin Telamon -the one person that is the Dragon- is right there. From the get-go of the rebirth of that special Soul, that what made that special Souls owner "The Dragon" in the Age of Legends -Lews Therin Telamon his Mind- is there. What becomes Rand al'Thor is the clean slate (a brandnew Body and Mind) reborn with the special Soul (we call it the Dragon Soul) and he had to be born on a specific location (Dragonmount) at a very specific time (when the Seals are weakened to the point of breaking) so that Lews Therin's Mind could re-attach to it's Soul.

You see, the way I see it, I'm talking about Lews Therin, just like Gitarra was.

 

You suppose it has to be about Rand, but actually it isn't; it's all about Lews Therin...:

“You cannot escape so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time.”

Then [ishamael] was gone, and [Dragonmount] and the island stood alone. Waiting.

 

It is completely unsupported to say that the name (not title, name) Telamon means World's Heart.

I'd say it's very well supported and fairly easily deduced from all the clues in the book. From story-line perspective, to big clues like the central role and the non-blinded Dragon seeing the whole world by holing saidin in his mind's eye on Dragonmount (VoG), the Dragon being 'one with the land' and all the way to very little hints and names all throughout the books about 'him being at the heart'. Calling that 'completely unsupported' instead of 'very plausable' feels like you're reading different books actually.

I don't see how any of these lead to your conclusion.

I.... I...just don't know how to explain it in little bits. I mean... the whole visible universe is made up out of just six leptons, six quarks and four basic forces.

If someone were to ask me "I don't see how any of these lead to human life"...where the hell do you start explaining?

 

From what I can tell just reading and remembering our posts, and how we're both looking at WoT (Rand for instance) from such, such different angles... (and recalling our diffetences about how we envision Taim/ Moridin/ Shaidar Haran back in "equal yet not" thread).... I just don't know where to start without loosing you from the get-go.

Could you please chop your problem with what I'm trying to get across into tinier questions, if you can? (for my sake)

I bet if you can tear your question into smaller bits that still make sense to you, I think I'd be able to answer it with my version. I just don't know where to start. Seriously.

 

It could as easily translate as Unseen Darkness (tel'aran'hiod being the Unseen World, and Ba'alzamon being Heart of the Dark). Or Dark World, Heart of Dreams, Dark Dreams. It's possible to see thematic appropriateness in all of those names.

You think those are appropriate for the Champion of Life -the one destined to save Creation from compete destruction- when his nemesis is called "Heart of the Dark"? Uhhh.. "Ok"?

Again, you must be reading a different story then I am.

Well, if we look at Rand's journey over the series, Unseen Darkness, for example, could be the darkness within Rand that he blinded himself to - the darkness Cadsuane was trying to correct. Given that World's heart and Heart of the Dark aren't diametrically opposed anyway, there is no reason why Rand's hidden name would have to be one that contrasted his role as champion of the Light with Moridin's as champion of the Shadow.

I don't see the thematic appropriateness in all those names you made up at all. Just forget about Rand for a second. Look at the Wheel from a distance and look at the War of the Shadow. It was already the fight it still is during all the books! The same fight. From a distance -disregarding all of Rand's adventures and groeth- it's still all about what was said at the end of the Prologue of the Eye of the World at the end of the War of the Shadow (or the beginings of the Breaking): It's still a fight between the Dragon and the Betrayer of Hope. A fight between -in this Turning- Lews Therin and Ishamael. By killing himself -and trapping his Mind inside creation somewhere due to him Sealing the Bore- all he did was buy unintended time. Lews Therin didn't die the final death...and couldn't escape the trap he spun himself (the Seal on Shai'tans prison). It's like the Soul of Shadow, the Heart of the Dark mentions to himself:

 

“You cannot escape so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time.”

 

Rand wasn't a factor when Lews Therin -the Dragon- recieved his honorific name Telamon.

 

- Ba'alzamon is Trolloc tongue, not Old Tongue,...

Wierd, for all the crappy, gutteral nonsence we hear them shout. I believe Rosel of Essam wrote a copy of a piece of paper pre-dating the Breaking that read like High Chant.

It's totally unsupported to think that something that reads as high chant that translates Ishamael (not really a Trolloc word, right) in the same way as Ba'alzamon is Old Tongue? I'd say that's actually just common sense there. You might just want to compare "Ba'alzamon" with "Narg" for a sec and see how those roll of the tongue.

The Trollocs might very well be given this name to use for the Soul of Shadow during the WoS. I'd say it's not so far fetched as you make it out to be.

That Ba'alzamon is Trolloc tongue is a fact. That it is Old Tongue is pure guesswork on your part.

Here we go again with 'pure guesswork'. Again...I figured you'd have enough info to go on with that quote but here we go in small steps:

 

1 - During AoL people spoke the Old Tongue (and nothing but the Old Tongue).

2 - Aginor and all the Forsaken we ever saw on screen spoke the Old Tongue.

3 - Trollocs were created somewhere before the WoS

4 - The only available language in the time that led to the WoS was the Old Tongue (and perhaps Ogier language, but that wasn't spoken by humans and even the Ogiers spoke what humans spoke due to their numers -per RJ's letter in '94)

5 - Ishamael was the foremost of the Council that led the Chosen in those days. Even if you do not believe he was much, much more (or from a Creations PoV less then that), he's the top dog.

6 - Rosel of Essams note mentioned the name Ba'alzamon in high chant writing and is translated and described in exactly the same manner as the name Ishamael.

7 - We see Trollocs fear Ishamael (or Ba'alzamon if you will) greatly. (TEotW / TGH)

8 - All throughout the books, we see that when Trollocs (ahum) 'speak', it sounds like harsh, gutteral cries. (loads of quotes, describe the same sounds by a multitude of human main characters). The one time one tried human speech, it was clear instantly it came from a mouth (muzzle) 'never meant for human speech'! (Hey Nargster!)

 

Now, from that we can deduct (not guess) the following;

10 - All experiments conducted by Aginor that succesfully resulted in Trolloc stock originally -the human part anyway- spoke the Old Tongue.

11 - The Dreadlords / Darkfriends leading the Trollocs spoke the Old Tongue to command them.

12 - Trollocs -the dumber then a doorknob fighting stock that they were/are- started out with what they could still understand and pronounce in the Old Tongue.

13 - Having beaks, snouts and other kinds of mouths/vocal system makes it hard to speak an eloquant language so it makes sense that Trolloc language deteriorated into what we now see described as gutteral cries and the like.

14 - Regardless of point 12 and 13, Trollocs being dumb cannon fodder, scared shitless of their top Forsaken and their Master -a being that's been called the 'uber-control-freak' by it's creator (RJ)- could very well have been given a fitting name for their foremost commander; Ishamael.

And yet it is still a guess that Ba'alzamon is a word from the old tongue, rather than one than was only ever present in the guttural Trolloc tongue. Yes, the Trolloc tongue likely began as a derivation of the old tongue. It could still possess significant linguistic differences. The quote from Rosel of Essam only indicates that the name Ba'alzamon and what it meant was known at the time of his writing, it does not indicate that the name had a prior existence in the OT, or that that prior existence was not in a form that was heavily corrupted. Or even mildly corrupted. Surely a difference of even one letter undermines your point? If the OT word was, say, amorn, and this became amon in Trolloc would indicate that if Telamon were to mean what you think it means, LTT should be Lews Therin Telamorn. So he was coincidentally and presciently given a name that has a meaning if we combine two languages together, and one of those languages was one that didn't exist at the time he was given the name.

So Rosel's "direct translation that reads almost like a bard reciting in High Chant contained Trolloc Tongue that described -what must have been Old Tongue- Ishamael in the exact same way? How is it even remotely logical to suggest she'd write Trolloc -and translate- Trolloc words that almost sound like High Chant? That are described in the same way as the name Ishamael is?

About corruption of the word; it would be really, really stupid -even by Trolloc standards (and that's saying something) to change the word for Shai'tans regent on earth! Trollocs (and even fades) soil their pants just being near to Ba'alzamon. You wouldn't dare change the name of someone that important and that mortifying.

 

So, Trollocs as a breed -somewhere during their first generations as a species without time to even start, nor care about inventing a langiage- started out with the eloquent name Ba'alzamon. Simple deduction tells us the name Ba'alzamon is either given to them (I'd say most probable ordered because of the importance of Ishamael and the uber-controlling nature of their Master), or taken from the Old Tongue (as it was the only language available to Trollocs in the first place!).

That's not guesswork. I think that's called deductive reasoning.

Or it was an early word in their language. Not an OT word, but a new word with similarities to the old word. So with several possibilities, not all of which support you, why do you think that yours is correct? Because it seems to be a case of your deductive reasoning has taken you so far, and you use guesswork to make the important leaps.

Because it's beyond silly to assume Rosel would write in Trolloc language ofcourse! Like an Italian historian directly translating both Russian and Latin in 4 sentences that are closely related, look the same in buildup and still be able to make it read like a Bard's poem.

 

Yes, Narg and Ba'alzamon are quite different words.

Yeah, because one came direclty from the Old Tongue and was given -or taken from the only language available to- the Trollocs of the earliest generations for the regent of their Master and that other name comes from the gutteral crap their language evolved (I'd prefer degenerated) into three thousand years later for a friggin Trolloc.

I'd say that's something of a stretch. You are, after all, making deductions (rather, inductions) from a sample size of two. What if Narg has a brother called Ba'alzagor? What if we take the names of the Trolloc tribes into account? I wouldn't say that Ba'alzamon is so vastly different a name from those that we have to reach the conclusion that Ba'alzamon must be an OT name imposed from on high, that has remained uncorrupted for three thousand years while the rest of their language has degenerated.

It's the name for the personification of Shai'tan. Like I said earlier; they shit their pants just being near Ishamael. You're damned right it stays exactly as is and Trollocs do their utmost best, even with beaks, muzzles, and I-don't-know-what-they-have-for-a-vocal-cord, that that particular name sounds as best as they can pronounce it!

Narg could hardly pronounce his own name properly with it's muzzle not meant for human speech. It's a friggin miracle some can even pronounce "Ba'alzamon" properly, I bet!

 

How did a word -not meant for human speech- find it's way into Rosel of Essams direct translation from what must have been Old Tongue writing and sounding like it was almost a Bard's poem?

 

 

Ba'alzamon is the Heart of the Dark.

The Dragon is at the center of the storm. The Eye of the storm if you will. Unblinded, the Dragon sees the whole world through his mind's eye!

What a big leap to say the Dragon is the Heart of the World and that Telamon means exactly that.

(Not)

Yes, a very big leap. The Dragon may be at the center of the storm. He doesn't see the whole world in his mind's eye, though.

Care to explain why that's éxactly what TGS tells us in the VoG Chapter? You know, the very first time the Dragon -being able to properly wield saidin- is no longer blinded by Leafblighter? =)

What happened at VoG is not ongoing. He might have seen it then, he doesn't see it now. Likewise, he doesn't have the memories of all his previous lives now, though he did have a brief flash of them during VoG.

You don't know what Rand experiences when he's holding saidin after VoG. And even if (big if, since the Dragon is no longer blinded) it was a one time deal...how would you explain it? As a sidenote, I don't think he saw all his past lives; he saw the lives of currently living threads, I think.

[Mik]

I'm behind on all your posts... I just can't keep up in a fairly busy week-end with 2 kids and a wife.

 

Really', really short answers;

 

@Mr Ares: raincheck!

@shortkut: it was me saying exactly that.

@Thrasymachus: I don't think it matters that heart has other Old Tongue words meaning the same. There are more Old Tongue words meaning (slightly) the same. Thanks for adding that stuff though.

@FarShainMael: you just make me smile! You got it. :)

 

I'll try to answer all tomorrow. (still got one week off with kids going to school)

[Thrasymachus]

Could other OT words mean "heart?" I guess it's possible. However, every instance where we see a phrase in the OT translated for us, and that translation includes the word "heart," the OT phrase has a word with the prefix "cue" or some derivation of the word "cuebiyar." We don't have any other word or phrase suggested to us that shares that meaning.

 

Further, to suppose that "amon" also means heart comes from only two names, Telamon, and Ba'alzamon. We are explicitly told that Ba'alzamon mean "Heart of Darkness" in trolloc tongue, not OT. We are not given a translation of Telamon at all. However, we are able to derive a translation of a very closely related word "aman" to mean "dragon." Ba'alzamon could easily have been originally an OT word meaning "enemy of the dragon" that trollocs adopted and changed to mean "heart of darkness." And it makes sense that "amon" is a form of "aman" and also means "dragon" because Lews Therin was given the name Telamon and also given the name Dragon. The word "dragon" is the Common Tongue word for "aman," so to say "Lews Therin Telamon" is to say exactly the same thing as "Lews Therin, Dragon of the World," just in different languages.

 

Trolloc language was likely derived from the OT and CT, there are, after all, no other languages to choose from, and it seems unlikely that they would have spontaneously developed a brand new language from pre-linguistic communicative noises, and we have no observations, even in the real world, of the spontaneous development of language, though it must have occurred at some point because we do have language. However, that derivation need not be at all faithful to the historical meanings or constructions of words in the OT or CT.

 

In any event, I don't think your overall theory hangs on your translation of the names being correct. That has more to do with the overall interpretation of the cosmology. I like the speculation that the nihilism of Elan's writings, which were influential, were part of a snowball effect leading to a thinning of the Pattern and a detection of the Dark One and the True Power. But I don't think that Elan did it intentionally, at least at first. Rather, I think that the nihilism, chaos and growing distrust are inevitable consequences of achieving the pinnacle of success represented by the AoL. For all intents and purposes, the AoL represented the perfection of society. But once you've attained perfection, then what? When you've reached the top, the only way left is down. The Pattern itself dictates that the chaos and disorder necessary to thin the Pattern and detect the Dark One are the necessary by-products of the perfection of the AoL. Order begets chaos and Belief begets distrust. Once Order and Belief have reached their pinnacle, then the source of Chaos and Disorder can be discovered and reassert itself. If it weren't Elan who lead the vanguard in sowing nihilism and distrust, it would have been someone else, but the Pattern doesn't work like that. Since it was time for the perfection of the AoL to begin to be undermined, by the logic of the Pattern and the nature of perfection themselves, the Pattern wove in just this agent to lead that undermining, while at the same time weaving in the Dragon to oppose this undermining, unsuccessfully I might add, in his first weaving, but thereby providing the means to re-establish Order and Belief, and keep the pendulum swinging.

[Zorlon]

I always assumed the team which drilled the Bore was just conducting their research into the workings of the universe and it in and of itself led them to suspect there must be another power hidden away. Remember, the AoL was a scientific and technological age which just happened to be run on the One Power like the internet runs on electricity. Their high energy research teams, like the one at the Sharom, were very much the particle physicists of their day.

 

And so they drilled to it with no idea what they were releasing.

 

Heck, maybe just as some nuts in our world protested the opening of the LHC because they feared it might create a black hole and consume the Earth, there were a few crazy protesters blathering that the Sharom research team has no idea what it's getting into.

 

Well just the same except that in the WoT they'd have been right.

 

Is there anything to suggest this wasn't the case? As far as I can tell its the evidence we've been given, and doesn't assume things we have no evidence for

[shortkut]

Why would ishy need to plan on unleashing the DO for his work to have that effect? That is even worse speculation than anything mik said. Unless i missed it, mik was saying that the weakening of the pattern happened as a result of ishy's writings, not that his writings were written with that intent

No, it is exactly what Mik said. As Mik said, why else would a man of his beliefs write books?

then i miss read mik's post. it works better if it was an unintended side effect of his nihilistic writings.

 

as to your question, as you said

There are many nihilists in the world today, and in the past. Some of them have written books. By writing books, he can share his viewpoint with the world.

does he need another reason to write?

[Byzantine279]

I believe that it wasn't all of a sudden. Rather they spent decades looking for a new source of power and some new technique or other allowed them to pinpoint it. Kind of like how radar is all basically the same thing, but modern radar is much more accurate and capable of finding a much smaller object (or in their case, fluctuation in the fabric of reality).

[jsbrads]

like the LHC?

 

also I don't think they starting drilling first, but found something, some slight energy seeping out and they drilled, "drill baby drill"

[Mik]

Why would ishy need to plan on unleashing the DO for his work to have that effect? That is even worse speculation than anything mik said. Unless i missed it, mik was saying that the weakening of the pattern happened as a result of ishy's writings, not that his writings were written with that intent

No, it is exactly what Mik said. As Mik said, why else would a man of his beliefs write books?

Correct. In a nuttshell: a true nihilist would not write meaningless books. And by definition all topics are meaningless from a truely nihilistic point of view. And -paradoxically- the only purely logical reason for a nihilist to write books -in a worlds that is cyclic and has rebirth of his soul!- would be if it had a chance to end the meaningless recurrence of his existence. A very selfish reason I might add. This is very much in line with the mentioned titles of his books and with the fact he was (one of the, posiibly) the foremost philosopher of his time and very likely had the mental cappacities to figure out how to achieve the end of meaningless existing.

 

 

*whistles*

Just read both posts and let me just start with saying; niiice.

I don't understand for the life of me why we usually ended up in a bloody melee where after a while I just thought "forget it" and left the forum (Shivan the Hunter & Equal yet not come to mind...if you recall).

In part it's because we look at things in different ways - even if we apply the same methods, we come to different conclusions because we start from different premises. And arguments can often have a way of reinforcing positions, driving viewpoints that start out not too dissimilar further apart because neither side wants to back down. My blunt manner exacerbates this problem, by making people more defensive than they might otherwise be.

All true. And me being a guy who likes to pay 'with equal coin', usually added some more fuel to the fire by adding more then a pinch of sarcasm and bluntness as well.

 

I'm going to leave the posts/replies in tact, so this will probably be two (maybe three) posts. I hope admin/ mods won't mind the double postings. (if you guys do.. let me know)

Anyway... here I go...

 

The most damning thing about this idea is, of course, that there is absolutely no evidence to support it. Just guesswork.

Well hello there, kind sir! Let's sift through your subtleties again, shall we?

 

Maybe if belief and order give strength to the Pattern then disbelief and chaos weaken it,....

Pure and utter guesswork absolutely not supported?

It's solid logic based on three well-established facts actually;

1 - RJ himself called Shai'tan the 'dark counterpart' of Creation. I could grab that quote easily but I'm pretty sure you've seen it.

2 - We've seen Chaos mentioned -and work- in the Shadow's advantage throughout the books. Even the BWB starts mentioning chaos welling up up the moment Shai'tans prison is pierced.

3 - We have Herid Fel -a philosopher, how nice!- mentioning "Belief and Order give strenght" while he's actually researching how to deal with the Shadow properly.

 

You can hardly call combining facts 1, 2 & 3 'pure and utter guesswork absolutely not supported'.

Chaos gives strenght to Shai'tan and weakens the Pattern. That fits with that Fel wrote about Order giving strenght to Rand's cause. That in turn lends credibility to Fel's assesment that Belief gives strenght to Rand's cause as well. And simple logic -combined with the fact that we've seen fact 1 literally play out here- lends credit that Disbelief strenghtens the Shadow.

 

Coincidently, Elan Morin -also a well known, well respected philosopher of his time (a well known fact again, I might add!)- wrote some books that -given it's titles- try to tell the readers of those books that Reason and Meanig are absent or folly.

Tying those together is a decent theory and not guesswork.

Actually, Mik, guesswork is exactly what it is. Chaos does not weaken the Pattern, so much as it weakens the forces of the Light. Divide and conquer. Belief and order give strength, not so much to the Pattern, but to the forces of the Light, to make them better able to resist the advances of chaos. As plausible a theory as your own, and based on the same premises. Just as much a bunch of guesswork.

Actually, Mr Ares, what you wrote isn't guesswork at all; we see your explanation of how Chaos and Order work play out throughout the books, so why would you call that 'guesswork'? But you see, what you wrote isn't the whole truth. And -again- I'm surprised I'm actually the one who has to come up with quotes for something so, so obvious. You know these books well. And from what I can tell you're a very intelligent man. So why do I have to explain it to you in such detail... while I'm sitting here thinking you wouldn't even need two sentences.

Anyway. Here I go again:

 

Let me just grab two quotes (there's probably quite a few more, but there will do by themselves just fine):

 

The fabric of society began to unravel under the onslaught of the Dark One's influence. A large part of the horror came from the simple fact that for many years, no one knew why this was all happening; chaos seemed to be welling up from nowhere, without cause.

Some people did begin to suspect, and eventually to know, the cause, but unfortunately most of these were people who saw possible gain for themselves in the Dark One's freedom

 

The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of reason and logic, the breaker of balance, the unmaker of order.

Even without Herid Fel's words about 'Belief and Order' in direct relationship to how to defeat the Dark One, these quotes alone prove my point. Your points about chaos and order are valid ones (and hardly 'speculation', I might add), but those don't disprove mine in the slightest.

I'd say if anything the first quote supports me. It is, after all, the fabric of society, not the Pattern, that is being unravelled by the chaos. The second quote can be interpreted either way. Now, it might seem obvious to you that certain things are true. Many things seem obvious to me that are unnoticed by others. It is always helpful to try to explain our reasoning on things that seem so intuitive to us, but so counter-intuitive to people we are trying to discuss with. The leap you have made is that belief and order give strength means strength to the Pattern - people who don't start from your viewpoint simply see a counter-intuitive leap, guesswork, or some such.

The thing I don't understand about your response is how this post (and the previous post) suggest that 'the fabric of society' and 'the Pattern' are two distinct seperate entities that do not relate to one another. The way I see it is that 'the fabric of society' is a big part of the Pattern itself. The Wheel (Time) weaves fabric that is constructed directly from lives and events (Threads) into the Pattern! They are not two seperate things and that's why my previous post said you were more then half right to say what you said about order and chaos, but that it wasn't the whole of it. And that it certainly wasn't guesswork!

 

Let me grab a quote that shows us how the Wheel weaves the Pattern:

The Wheel is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality

I don't see how you can state that Chaos can unravel the fabric of society, but that that's not the Pattern is... well.. I don't understand how and why you think that. Then there's the wording of that sentence I quoted earlier; the "fabric" of society "unraveled" under the unslaught of the influence of the Dark One himself. The way that is worded also fits with how I percieve the Pattern and how Time -the Wheel- weaves it; Threads of events and lives (society if you will) are being unraveled, harming the fabric of the Pattern.

 

On top of that, said quote directly linked the Dark One as the source of the Chaos twice. It was the Dark One's direct influence (without anyone realizing) that made 'fabric unravel'. And the quote said that without cause, chaos welled up from nowhere. So that's why, yes, that I still think it's obvious how I percieved things. I'm hoping that by showing -with that quote- how I envision 'the fabric of society' to be an important part of what the Pattern actually is, that you at the very least see where I'm comming from.

Actually, now that we come to the heart of the difference perspectives (I think), you might actually agree. (... I hope)

At the very least, that you'd take the 'guesswork'-factor down a notch. ;)

I would say that the concepts of the fabric of society and the fabric of the Pattern are quite distinct - while both society and the Pattern are concepts which are related on some level, people being threads in both, they are still separate. A solitary human being might be separate from society, but by his existence is a part of the Pattern. Some animals are social by nature, others are not, but even those animals that do not form societies still have threads in the Pattern. So while human social groups will be reflected in the Pattern, the overlap between the two concepts is not absolute - they are different things. If every human in the world went our separate ways and had nothing to do with one another, human society would cease to exist, but the Pattern would endure. Consequently, because I see them as being different concepts, I don't think it follows that an attack on one is necessarily an attack on the other.

It's no wonder our premises are so different, if we don't seem to agree on this level even. I'm sorry to still have to say it, but I seriously don't understand how you can view in it this way. It just feels like your reasoning capabilities just don't mix with this point of view. There's no reason to assume (and yes, I do think it's assumption right here) that the fabric of the Pattern as woven by Time is anything different then all the Threads, that -for atleast a part- make op the fabric of society. I would say that it's illogical to see them as different concepts.

How would you explain the effect of Balefire? The results of Balefire show how reality is actually the same as Threads woven in the Pattern; reality is destroyed before the weave actually touches reality and that's because Threads in the Pattern are burned back to a point in Time before they were destroyed! Logic suggests that reality -the fabric of society / actions and events of people / call it what you will- is the same as Threads woven in the Pattern. They are a different description of something that's essentially the same. One way of looking at it describes how it's seen by people living...while the other way of looking at it describes what happens to the system at system-level.

It's just two different ways of describing the same thing. Not two different concepts that are quite distinct.

 

As a non-perfect analogy; you can report on what you see when you throw five chemicals together. Or you can write down the chemical process that is occuring.

They are not two concepts because they look different; they are one 'thing' described in two very different ways.

I hope that makes sense. *crosses fingers*

 

 

And yes, Ishy was a nihilist, and consequently his books espoused a nihilistic philosophy. It does not follow that he wrote them with an ulterior motive, or that the writing of those books lead to the discovery of Shai'tan. Not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes things are just what they appear to be, and there are no patterns within the patterns. If the world is without value or meaning, and Shai'tan intends to destroy the world, then joining the Shadow was just a logical course of action for Ishy.

Considering what and how you write, I think you're a man who (more then) appreciates logic, I reckon. So explain this to me please, because -again-, I find that obvious to anyone who appreciates logic thinking. Why would a nihilist, in this case Elan Morin who thinks creation, living, all of it, is absolutely pointless and meaningless to the point that he'd rather have it gone then know that his soul will go through a process of endless, meaningless lives, write books? Elan Morin was a man of cold logic and by that same logic that means that if everything is so pointless that you'd rather not go through all of it, there's absolutely no valid reason to write a book. In fact, cold logic means that the only valid reason for a person like Elan Morin to even consider writing books, is with the ulterior motive to end the meaningless, endless cycle. From the nihlistic point of view Elan Morin had, any other reason is absolutely moot to him; why even bother? You're right it's not a conspiracy (why would you even push our dialog in that direction?), it's logic. And using just logic -to the point that it just destroys- fits Elan Morin like a glove as we can read in TGS.

There are many nihilists in the world today, and in the past. Some of them have written books. By writing books, he can share his viewpoint with the world. His viewpoint could lead to three possible courses of action: suicide, live life, or plot to destroy the world. While he eventually opted for course three, I think there is a difference between seizing an opportunity and creating the opportunity yourself - had the Bore never been drilled, would he have been anything other than a philosopher? I see no reason to put him in the mould of supreme mastermind of a plot to unleash Shai'tan in the first place (especially given how convoluted a plan it sounds like - write books, those books become hugely influential, that influence undermines the Pattern, leads to discovery of Shai'tan, others drill through Pattern to touch Shai'tan...).

The problem with bringing our worlds 'nihilists' into the equation are three fundamental differences between our real world and the AoL world RJ created.

One, is the fact that WoT has a Creator that is acknowledged world-wide to exist, whereas our world doesn't.

Two, is that everyone knows Time is cyclic in WoT, while our world has linear time.

Three, is that souls are reborn time without end (unless stopped ofcourse).

Those are pretty hefty differences to be able to compare what you'd consider a nihilist in Real Life or the nihilist Elan Morin is. Normally, I'd rather rely on logic then on what I think are fundamentally flawed comparisons to begin with, regardless that they philosophers share the name 'nihilist'. But for the sake of argument, I'll share my thoughts on your example anyway.

 

In your example you mention the three options Elan Morin has;

"His viewpoint could lead to three possible courses of action: (1) suicide, (2) live life, or (3) plot to destroy the world."

 

Just step in Elan Morin's shoes for a second. I'd think that his take on option 1 is that that's not really an option at all, because basically that'd just mean endless rebirth. Suicide is just a meaningless 'shortcut' to an infinite number of rebirths. How does that solve his problem knowing he'd still go through the agony of meaningless, pointless lives? I think a nihilist in a world where time is cyclic and knowing his soul would be reborn regardless of suicide, that's not a solution at all. Option 2, the "just living" is meaningless in and by itself and once dead through natural death,..well..see point 1.

Option 3 however -if you figure out how Creation works and once you realize that's it's a plausable option- would paradoxally give this life a purpose; a means to a (litteral) end. It's the only option a nihilist who feels himself trapped in an endless cycle of meaningless drivel has and I do think Elan Morin came to that conclusion. Even if writing books to convince enough people of the "Absence of Meaning" was a longshot -because he might have been uncertain his theories regarding Creation/ Uncreation were right-, it's a possible way out! I'd think a man of cold logic would grab it with both hands. Option 1 and 2 just don't cut it.

 

And even IF his theories regarding how to achieve option 3 had been wrong, then what's the loss? Nothing is really lost then, but a meaningless life wasted that was useless otherwise anyway!

Just figuring out how Creation must have it's counterpart -regardless of it's shape or form and if / how it has to be freed- and deducting that unbelief in will weaken Creation and that that -regardless of how that works- could result in total annihilation of everything would be enough. Elan Morin didn't need to know how it all went down as we -the readers- have read it did, but his intend was there nonetheless, I think.

 

I'd be figuring out a way how to gain wide influence easilly available to a large part of the population; writing books is not a bad way to go.

So, Mr Ares. You being a man of reason and logic. Which option would you pick if you stood in Elan Morin's nifty (but meaningless) fancloth shoes?

The mere fact of existence being meaningless does not mean that existence is intolerable. Bear in mind that while cyclical time is something that we can be pretty damn sure doesn't exist in our world, various cultures have believed in it. Some of those cultures have probably produced nihilists. Those nihilists would be faced with the same dilemma Elan was faced with. The mere fact of existence being meaningless doesn't itself indicate a desire to destroy existence. One could simply resign oneself to the fact that nothing one does matters, and carry on. A lot of people do just that. If you want to destroy the world, and your only chance is a long shot then it is logical to take the long shot rather than do nothing, because by taking the long shot you have a chance of success. But if Elan only later came to the desire to destroy the world, or didn't see it as a possibility that his books could accomplish, or something he could achieve at all, then the motivation you ascribe to him would not apply. Saying if he was aware that spreading unbelief and chaos would weaken the fabric of the Pattern he would do it is all well and good, but it is still a big if. If he was not aware, then his motivation is gone. There are big gaps in what we know of the Chosen and the AoL. We do not have the information to say, with any degree of certainty, that Elan knew enough to make the leap that his books would weaken the Pattern. And if his books aren't written for the purpose of weakening the Pattern, he needs a different motivation to write them. It's things like this that tend to from the foundations of our disagreements. Your reasoning is logical, but your premises are things which we do not know to be true. If Elan knew (or had reasonable suspicion) that chaos and unbelief would weaken the Pattern, then he might have written his books with the intention of weakening the Pattern. But we cannot say that the premise is true. Therefore we do not know if the conclusion is either.

"The mere fact of existence being meaningless does not mean that existence is intolerable."

The mere fact? Aren't you downplaying -or maybe, understandibly can't fully immagine- how a nihilist experiences his existence? How do the Shaido (very effectively I might add) break people (strong minds like Aes Sedai for instance) in WoT; by utterly useless, mind-numbing, hard labor. Now immagine that everything you do, in fact anything anyone does is even more useless then piling rocks and then putting them back. Add to that the fact that you can't even kill yourself to escape the loop, knowing about cyclic nature and reborn souls? Our difference lies not in our logic on this matter Mr Ares, but how we both percieve how true nihilism in Elan Morin's world feels like.

I do believe, that if you could feel how *I* feel (well... logically deducted, I'd call it..but I accept that it's not proof as such) Elan Morin must have felt, you'd find my premise the only logical conclusion given the facts we do know about.

 

 

and maybe Ishamael figured that out,...

Not a big if; Elan Morin was (one of the if not the) foremost philosopher of the pinacle of civilization! He's had hundreds of years to figure this out. Herid Fel only had a few years. He wasn't too far from the truth, wouldn't you agree?

Bear in mind they lived in different Ages, with access to different information. If whatever it was that lead Fel to his conclusions was based on information Ishy didn't have, then it is entirely reasonable that he could come up with something Ishy couldn't.

That's a good point, and I did consider that (and truth be told, didn't mention it because it would weaken my position). I have nothing against your point, but I still think it's likely -given their profession- and given the fact that Elan Morin was (one of the and possibly the) foremost philosopher of his time, with all the extra years he had that he figured it out. Anway, good point.

Well, I think the point of different information is pretty crucial here. Fel lives in an Age where Shai'tan has acted on the world - from observations of those actions, it is possible to make deductions. Prior to the drilling of the Bore, there would have been little to no information available on Shai'tan. So Elan Morin would lack the observations from which to make solid deductions. Now, during the Collapse, he could make the necessary observations, have a solid foundation for his reasoning. I'm reminded of the opening to The God Delusion where Richard Dawkins mentions that he focused on theologians that made arguments for God's existence, rather than those who took His existence as a given, and make arguments as to His nature. Prior to the Collapse and the Bore, Elan Morin would have to make arguments as to existence first. Fel and Ishamael post-drilling of the Bore have evidence of existence, as so can make arguments as to His nature. And that is the problem with your theory - despite little to no basis for his arguments, Elan was able to make accurate deductions as to Shai'tan's nature, and from those deductions enact a plan to unleash Him upon the world. Surely it is more plausible that when he had a basis for his deductions, he joined the Shadow - he worked out what was facing the world, and aligned himself with that being, but he wasn't the one responsible for the discovery that lead to the drilling in the first place. He merely took advantage of an opportunity.

There was evil done in the AoL, but it was very little and never on a big scale, due to the orderly manner in wich society operated. So there were very small indirect clues there, even for Elan Morin to pick up if you even need them. But well, like I said earlier regarding this point, you're totally right here. It was lots easier for Fel and yes, after the drilling of the Bore, there was direct proof of Shai'tan. So I agree with you here. While your version is absolutely more likely in and by itself, I still think -while less plausible- my version is also a decent possibility and given the whole story plus the extra time Elan Morin had compared to Fel, I think is what really happened. That'll just have to do...or not.

 

(OT Sidenote: coincidently I finished reading 'The Ancestor's Tale' by Dawkins weeks ago, (I have read 'The Greatest Show on Earth' about a year ago but no other books from Dakwins) but haven't read The God Delusion (yet). Did make me grin you've read Dawkins! I've also just finished 'The Grand Design' by Hawkins e.a. Both were good reads although I liked Dawkins book better because I just felt I'd learned more new stuff. The Grand Design was ..well.. very nicely written, but if you're already well aware of the current situation in science-land you won't read any new stuff actually. (How simple and eloquent his explantion about how time can have a 'start' and yet doesn't need a real beginning was sheer and utter brilliance though!).

There being evil done in the AoL indicates that humans are capable of evil, it doesn't mean that evil must be the result of an outside actor. Even with our knowledge of Shai'tan, that remains true - there are evils in the world not born of Him. And while your theory is conceivably true, Elan might have worked things out given his intelligence, and the time he had, that we don't know he did work it out is the very problem I initially put to you. Lack of evidence. We cannot be certain, or even very sure, that the premises are true, but if they are true then this is a reasonable conclusion.

Elan Morin knew there was an outside actor; the Creator. It's hard to say how hard it would be to immagine if you could come up with the thought that there had to be a counterpart when you've already read about one. Did RJ give the Soul of the Shadow his profession -a foremost philosopher- for no other reason then..well.. that he just had to have a profession in the AoL? I realise that is a bit of 'reverse engineerig' if you will. But then again, isn't that exactly what RJ did when he wrote the Wheel of Time? He knew where he was heading from the start. Elan Morin could have been a plummer...or a teacher.. or an attorny. And yet, he had the exact same occupation as the only other character in the books we see who seems to have figured it out.

[Mik]

(continued post)...

 

And if nothing else, they are different men with different viewpoints. Different people come to different conclusions, they reason in different ways, and sometimes things occur to one person that don't occur to another - even things which, in hindsight, appear rather obvious. So yes, again, it is guesswork, not based on evidence.

I think your conclusion here is comming on way too strong. Same as with the Chaos/ Order conclusion you wrote. Yes, different men can reach different conclusions. But they don't have to. I showed Herid Fel came to the conclusion that; "Belief and order give strenght" as a way of fighting what we know is 'the embodiment of Chaos'. Logic suggests -as I wrote above- that if Fel can figure that out in just a few years -give what we know about Elan Morin's actions and thoughts and given what we know Shai'tan to be- that Elan Morin came to a conclusion that pointed in the same directions and that reaching a conclusion like that is the only plausible, logical reason for a nihilist to even consider writing books.

True, different men don't have to come to different conclusions. But the point is that you cannot say one smart man woken this out, therefore another smart man is sure to. They were different men, with different beliefs, and access to different knowledge, and it is entirely plausible that they could come to different conclusions.

No, not sure to.....but given the titles of the books Elan Morin wrote and what we learn from Fel..to me, it looks like they did reach very similar conclusions. Elan Morin just focused on the Disassembly of Reason (Unreason) / Absence (of meaning) part whereas Fel focuses on the Reason / Belief (of meaning).

Fair enough. Their conclusions had similarities and differences.

 

...and maybe he wrote some books..

Fact. There's no maybe. Elan Morin did write some books and the topics mentioned fit nicely with what I wrote above.

His books (among them Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and the Disassembly of Reason), while too esoteric for wide popularity, were extremely influential in many areas beyond philosophy, especially in the arts.

...which weren't widely read in order to weaken in,..

Wrong. Just because they were to hard to understand for wide polularity, does in no way mean they weren't widely read. In fact, the text literally states his books were "extremely influential in many areas". Again, with a world-wide society of billions, that means loads of readers he had an extreme influence on.

Attempting to manipulate my point via selective editing doesn't make your point any better. I did not deny that Elan Morin wrote books. Writing books that weren't widely read was one point, not two.

I apologize for tearing one point in two. It was not intentional and I'm ashamed to have made the mistake. I guess I jumped at the opportunity to prove a point wrong. It was not intentional manipulation of your point. Even though we busted heads more often then not and you have an irky way of crawling under my skin, I respect what you say (not how you say :P) too much to ever try something like that. Having said that... moving on to content:

And yes, them not being widely read is what was said. They were influential, yes, but that does not make me wrong. It is not a counter to my point. If I wrote a book that was only read by a handful of people, but one of the people went on to make a hugely influential film that was influenced by my book, then I have indirectly influenced a lot of people. but my book was not widely read. Of course, Nietzsche was very influential on the Nazis, but their philosophy was very different to what he proposed. His concept of the ubermensch being on individual lines rather than racial, for example.

Still, it said he was extremely influential in many areas. Again, simple logic suggest that with a population of billions that's loads of people, regardless of what you say. Taking your example about the nazis; they would just be one of many areas Elan Morin had extreme influence on. *shrugs*

And about the film example. That's slightly twisting what was said in the books: Elan Morin's own writing had extreme influence in many areas. Where does it say 'books/ films/ plays based on Elan Morin's work'? Anyway, I see your point, but I don't think it changes my point in any way;

Extreme influence in many areas in a population of billions still equals lots and lots of influence.

Yes, he was very influential. But what I said was that he wasn't widely read. Widely read and influential aren't the same thing. And the film example was just that - an example of how his works could be influential (as was the Nazi example). If I wrote a book that was read by everyone at, say Cambridge, but no-one who wasn't studying there in a given year, my work would not be widely read. But it would be read by the politicians, civil servants, spies, businessmen, actors, film makers, writers, and teachers of the future. So I could potentially be very influential in many areas.

I just don´t see why you can´t accept that ´influence in many areas -regardless if extreme or not- with a population of billions = a lot of people (Threads)? It's so simple really.

It's because they mean different things - his books might not have been read by many people in absolute numbers, but the people who read it were strongly influenced by it, and they themselves went on to have a great influence upon society and culture.

While I don't see the logic of how several books from the (one of the?) foremost philosopher as judged so by a worldwide society would not be read by a lot of people (in absolute numbers) while that society is made up of billions of people, I wouldn't mind just accepting what you say is true. I guess Elan Morin would have just kept writing his take on the 'Absence if Meaning' in different books untill a certain 'threshold' of people was reached that was enough for the strange Power to be felt. In fact, now that I write this, it actually makes sense. Regardless of the number of people reached with the books, he wrote as long as it took. No longer and no shorter, because why write longer then needed? The absolute number of people doesn't matter, as long as it was enough to be sensed. We don't know how big (or small) the absolute number would be, so maybe arguing the point is fairly useless. (If you see it differently, then let's hear it).

 

But my message could be grossly distorted, and that grossly distorted message could be what is taken away. I control what i say, but not what other people interpret my words to mean. Worse still from the point of view of an Elan Morin master plan is that he does so at a further remove - if the masses read my words I can appeal directly to them, but if my beliefs are being relayed to wider society through the lens of others perception, I am even further removed from what people ultimately take away. The further away from me it is, the more interpretations there are, so the more my message is distorted. To rely on that for a plan is rather hit and miss, I'd say.

And you're accusing me of guesswork? What's this then? I mean, I don't mind speculation at all truth be told, but I don't see why you're making such a difficult issue out of a very simple statement. If you're that bothered by 'influential in many areas, but not widely popular' in a huge (and I mean huuuge) population, meaning lots of people.... just give me a ballpark figure for just the 'Art community' and the 'Philosophy community' in the Age of Legends. I don't know how many more areas there were and how big they were, but I'm guessing the numbers for art and philosophy might be enough already, given about what was deemed important in AoL.

Remember, he needn't be read by an entire community. Not every artist in the world has to read his books. The numbers of people who read him could still be very low in absolute terms without conflicting with the idea of him being influential.

*points above* I agree it neededn't be the entire community, nor did I say it needed to be. All I said was 'give me a ballpark figure', but considering what I wrote above these quotes, I don't think arguing about an absolute number would matter. Elan Morin wrote as long as it took to reach anough people...for something to happen in society. He stopped writing about the 'Absence of Meaning' the moment it was no longer neccesary, because it would be pointless.

 

 

So even if Ishamael was influential, it could easily be the case that hugely corrupted versions of what he was saying are what was taken away from his writings - so even if he tried to undermine AoL culture through his writings, it's a massive stretch to think that it would work.

Now this is speculation actually. I don't think it's a massive stretch at all.

and maybe ... their influence was enough to cause Mierin and Beidomon to be able to sense Shai'tan..

Ok. So this bit is speculation. I don't see the problem of all the reasoning above leads to this, considering there had been millions of Channelers for thousands of years. *shrugs* Fine. It's a theory. Sue me.

The problem is that the reasoning above does not lead to this. You don't have a logical progression,...

Must. resist. urge. to. snap. *counts to ten* *counts to twenty* *takes deep breath*

I just can't for the life of me see how you come to that conclusion. In real life people say I'm often too much logic. My work is based on combining logic with product development. It's.. just.. I honestly don't see how someone who obviously has a decent head on his shoulders can say that. Let me just politely disagree and have me sigh behind my keyboard for the next hour or so...

if x then y, if y then z. What you have is "if x, then y is possible, but so is q. Or b for that matter. But I think y is correct. Also, I think y causes z, just because it's a cool idea." There are millions of humans on earth, we have been here for tens of thousands of years. We still make discoveries. We create new technologies, we build on what has been learnt before. Aginor could not create Shadowspawn in the Third Age because the technological base was gone. He didn't have the tool she needed to build the tools, and so on. Tamyrlin might not have had the tools to drill the Bore, or sense Shai'tan. But what he creates leads to further creations and discoveries, which lead to further creations and discoveries, which lead to eventually someone being in the right place at the right time with the right tools to find that new source of Power.

Blabbertalk to start with. Now this is baseless speculation. The Age of Legends was at it's peak for longer then we -on earth- can write. Comparing the AoL to our world and to the 3rd Age is like comparing apples and....orangesspaceships

But the AoL didn't know everything. They still had researchers and universities and so on. There were still things to learn, discoveries to be made. To say that the only thing that might lead to a new discovery of this magnitude, the only reasonable change that could be made, is the writings of a single philosopher is quite a stretch. It's surely more reasonable to think of this scientific discovery in the sense of it being akin to the Higgs-Boson of the AoL. Someone had to get around to building the LHC. Some other discovery could as easily lead to that discovery, some new technological advance could make the technology needed to drill the Bore a reality rather than a theory. Maybe it's just me, but I see a book being written that alters the fabric of reality to the extent that an evil god can manifest to be a bit more unlikely than just some new advances in science and technology are made, and they lead to more new discoveries.

Are you kidding me? Do you honestly compare both male and female channelers simply sensing a Power source -a passive act all throughout the books of just feeling something- to one of greatest technological advancements of our world? *bites own hand*

Mr Ares; all Mierin did was sense a Power that was dangled in front of her nose. All that probably took a little time was figure out how to reach it.

Sensing saidar and saidin is passive. But the TP has differences to the OP. It can only be sensed by the person holding it, while any male channeler can feel another man holding it, and the mere ability for another woman to hold saidar can be sensed, whether she is currently holding or not. Could the TP be sensed by anyone? It would be unlike Shai'tan to make it available to all, we have seen no channelers be aware of its presence during the series save those who can touch it. Rand was aware of the TP's existence prior to TGS, for example, but he couldn't feel it there. Once he had touched it, he was tempted to touch it again, but before that first touch there was nothing. They became aware of the existence of the TP somehow. We don't know how. Nor do we have a reliable basis for speculation.

I think Barid actually added a decent point to the discussion about that. It fits very much in the line of thought I posed to start with; human threads -given the right mindset- give Shai'tan a power base. He's -literally- Nothing without it. That fits with Moiraine telling the boys in TEoTW to 'not let the Dark One attach a string to them' by denying His power and Lanfear telling Egwene (In TAR @ the Heart of the Stone) to call the Dark One a fool, so his Power fails. Now that the Dark One has a hold on the Pattern, you actually have to fight him off actively, because he's invading through the Bore and leeches Power 'like water on dry sand'. Before the Bore was drilled, people actually had to willingly give him Power (through evil doings, evil thoughts, chaos and unbelieving).

And perhaps -yes, it's assumption, but it fits nicely in the line of reasoning as a whole AND with your points about TP- it's like Barid suggests; The people to feel that strange Power, were Channelers already 'ripe (enough?) for the plucking', because they opened their hearts to Shai'tan by choice. Not that it was a deliberate choice to accept Shai'tan -the dark counterpart of the Creator-, but by embracing what he represents; Evil, Chaos or Disbelief.

 

So, Mierin finds the bore, incidentally, she is already "ripe for the Shadow's plucking" (able to sense the DO as above?)

Nice Barid.

 

And nice Mr Ares.

I seriously like it how we push eachother forward, regardless if you oppose or approve of the theory. I seriously think we're getting there. I would never have written it this clear and in digestible pieces if it weren't for the positive energy I keep getting from this discussion. Up for re-opening "Equal yet not"? I'd bet my left kidney and my best whisky we'd like it and would have different discussions then we used to have. (and I'm not going to bother if you don't feel like it)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Edit: . Not sure, so deleted just to be safe.

[Byzantine279]

like the LHC?

 

also I don't think they starting drilling first, but found something, some slight energy seeping out and they drilled, "drill baby drill"

 

Yea, I remember them finding "something" before they drilled, but they were completely unaware of what it was other than an exotic form of energy they assumed they could access.

 

The entire rest of the drill team was not ripe for the shadow's picking, though, Lanfear was simply the luck of the draw, or perhaps that it took someone as obsessed as her to keep up a dead project for decades? continuing to look closer and closer. As I said above I think it was simply they found a better, more accurate technique to look, or created even better ter'angrael, etc. We are always doing similar with our own technology.

[Mr Ares]

Why would a nihilist, in this case Elan Morin who thinks creation, living, all of it, is absolutely pointless and meaningless to the point that he'd rather have it gone then know that his soul will go through a process of endless, meaningless lives, write books? Elan Morin was a man of cold logic and by that same logic that means that if everything is so pointless that you'd rather not go through all of it, there's absolutely no valid reason to write a book.

 

There are many nihilists in the world today, and in the past. Some of them have written books. By writing books, he can share his viewpoint with the world.

 

But why would he bother? What would be the point?

 

Yes, there are many people who claim to be nihilists around in the RW (I knew one personally) and many of them have written books; but surely, a true nihilist, one who really believes what he espouses, would simply lose the will to live?

 

IMO, someone who calls himself a nihilist (which Elan Morin didn't, IIRC) but is still alive, and motivated to write books (or indeed motivated to do ANYTHING!), isn't nihilist, but destructive.

 

Accordingly, I think Elan Morin's motives in writing his books were indeed destructive. I don't think, though, that he had invoking the DO in mind specifically, though when the Bore was drilled its true nature was probably a welcome surprise (though again, why would a a nihilist welcome anything..). Nor do I think that Lanfear/Meirin had any such motivation herself; she was after power, pure and simple.

Just because existence is fundamentally meaningless, doesn't mean you can't enjoy life. If anything, the desire to commit suicide off the back of your philosophical belief is (self-)destructive, a desire to destroy the world is destructive. Merely perceiving the world as something lacking meaning or purpose doesn't mean you have to hate life. If you are of the belief that there is a meaning to life, that there is some greater purpose, then you might act according to that belief, but it doesn't mean that your every single waking moment is focused on nothing but that. It is merely an extension of that principle. You can write books because you enjoy writing, because you want to share your viewpoint with the world, even if you accept that this is a meaningless task.

 

Aha! Hrmm. I think the heart (hehe..pun intended) of our different perspectives (why you say 'guesswork' and I say 'deduction') lies in what we think 'The Dragon Reborn' actually means. Gitarra's Foretelling in New Spring tells us:

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"

 

Lews Therin Telamon -the one person that is the Dragon- is right there. From the get-go of the rebirth of that special Soul, that what made that special Souls owner "The Dragon" in the Age of Legends -Lews Therin Telamon his Mind- is there. What becomes Rand al'Thor is the clean slate (a brandnew Body and Mind) reborn with the special Soul (we call it the Dragon Soul) and he had to be born on a specific location (Dragonmount) at a very specific time (when the Seals are weakened to the point of breaking) so that Lews Therin's Mind could re-attach to it's Soul.

You see, the way I see it, I'm talking about Lews Therin, just like Gitarra was.

 

You suppose it has to be about Rand, but actually it isn't; it's all about Lews Therin...:

“You cannot escape so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time.”

Then [ishamael] was gone, and [Dragonmount] and the island stood alone. Waiting.

I know quite a few people disagree with me on this point, but I believe that while Rand and Lews Therin are separate facets of the same soul, they are different people. Of course, this does depend on your definition of "person" to an extent. Both Rand and LTT are manifestations of the Dragon soul, and consequently both are the Dragon, but that doesn't make them the same person, merely people with a shared soul and a shared purpose. (By the same token, Rand's belief in VoG that he and Lews Therin are not people, and never were, can be taken as Rand's understanding, rather than a metaphysical truth.)

 

 

It is completely unsupported to say that the name (not title, name) Telamon means World's Heart.

I'd say it's very well supported and fairly easily deduced from all the clues in the book. From story-line perspective, to big clues like the central role and the non-blinded Dragon seeing the whole world by holing saidin in his mind's eye on Dragonmount (VoG), the Dragon being 'one with the land' and all the way to very little hints and names all throughout the books about 'him being at the heart'. Calling that 'completely unsupported' instead of 'very plausable' feels like you're reading different books actually.

I don't see how any of these lead to your conclusion.

I.... I...just don't know how to explain it in little bits. I mean... the whole visible universe is made up out of just six leptons, six quarks and four basic forces.

If someone were to ask me "I don't see how any of these lead to human life"...where the hell do you start explaining?

 

From what I can tell just reading and remembering our posts, and how we're both looking at WoT (Rand for instance) from such, such different angles... (and recalling our diffetences about how we envision Taim/ Moridin/ Shaidar Haran back in "equal yet not" thread).... I just don't know where to start without loosing you from the get-go.

Could you please chop your problem with what I'm trying to get across into tinier questions, if you can? (for my sake)

I bet if you can tear your question into smaller bits that still make sense to you, I think I'd be able to answer it with my version. I just don't know where to start. Seriously.

Well, for one thing, you say that the books state that Rand is at the heart of tings, but there is a difference between being at the heart and being the heart. What Rand saw of the world on Dragonmount could be something that happens to everyone suffering his form of madness when they undergo reintegration. And being one with something and being its heart are not the same thing.

 

 

It could as easily translate as Unseen Darkness (tel'aran'hiod being the Unseen World, and Ba'alzamon being Heart of the Dark). Or Dark World, Heart of Dreams, Dark Dreams. It's possible to see thematic appropriateness in all of those names.

You think those are appropriate for the Champion of Life -the one destined to save Creation from compete destruction- when his nemesis is called "Heart of the Dark"? Uhhh.. "Ok"?

Again, you must be reading a different story then I am.

Well, if we look at Rand's journey over the series, Unseen Darkness, for example, could be the darkness within Rand that he blinded himself to - the darkness Cadsuane was trying to correct. Given that World's heart and Heart of the Dark aren't diametrically opposed anyway, there is no reason why Rand's hidden name would have to be one that contrasted his role as champion of the Light with Moridin's as champion of the Shadow.

I don't see the thematic appropriateness in all those names you made up at all. Just forget about Rand for a second. Look at the Wheel from a distance and look at the War of the Shadow. It was already the fight it still is during all the books! The same fight. From a distance -disregarding all of Rand's adventures and groeth- it's still all about what was said at the end of the Prologue of the Eye of the World at the end of the War of the Shadow (or the beginings of the Breaking): It's still a fight between the Dragon and the Betrayer of Hope. A fight between -in this Turning- Lews Therin and Ishamael. By killing himself -and trapping his Mind inside creation somewhere due to him Sealing the Bore- all he did was buy unintended time. Lews Therin didn't die the final death...and couldn't escape the trap he spun himself (the Seal on Shai'tans prison). It's like the Soul of Shadow, the Heart of the Dark mentions to himself:

 

“You cannot escape so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time.”

 

Rand wasn't a factor when Lews Therin -the Dragon- recieved his honorific name Telamon.

If he received it before the Collapse, then neither was the fight against the Shadow. Why would the First Among Servants be considered the heart of the world?

 

And yet it is still a guess that Ba'alzamon is a word from the old tongue, rather than one than was only ever present in the guttural Trolloc tongue. Yes, the Trolloc tongue likely began as a derivation of the old tongue. It could still possess significant linguistic differences. The quote from Rosel of Essam only indicates that the name Ba'alzamon and what it meant was known at the time of his writing, it does not indicate that the name had a prior existence in the OT, or that that prior existence was not in a form that was heavily corrupted. Or even mildly corrupted. Surely a difference of even one letter undermines your point? If the OT word was, say, amorn, and this became amon in Trolloc would indicate that if Telamon were to mean what you think it means, LTT should be Lews Therin Telamorn. So he was coincidentally and presciently given a name that has a meaning if we combine two languages together, and one of those languages was one that didn't exist at the time he was given the name.

So Rosel's "direct translation that reads almost like a bard reciting in High Chant contained Trolloc Tongue that described -what must have been Old Tongue- Ishamael in the exact same way? How is it even remotely logical to suggest she'd write Trolloc -and translate- Trolloc words that almost sound like High Chant? That are described in the same way as the name Ishamael is?

About corruption of the word; it would be really, really stupid -even by Trolloc standards (and that's saying something) to change the word for Shai'tans regent on earth! Trollocs (and even fades) soil their pants just being near to Ba'alzamon. You wouldn't dare change the name of someone that important and that mortifying.

They don't have to change his name. As we have seen, the Shadow has some names given from on high (Moridin, Shaidar Haran), some names given by its own (Lanfear), and some names given by the Light (Demandred, Moghedien, et al). While a word in Trolloc is unlikely to come from the Light, Ba'alzamon could very easily be a name the Trollocs themselves gave Ishy. As for Rosel's translation, I'm not sure what the problem is. Many works, including WoT itself, use words from other languages without translating them - look at all the untranslated snippets of Old Tongue scattered throughout. We know that Ba'alzamon is a name in Trolloc tongue. So either Rosel used a Trolloc tongue word and then followed up with the translation, or she used an Old Tongue word that was directly ported to the Trolloc tongue and never once in a glossary or interview or the books proper has it ever been said to be Old Tongue.

 

Or it was an early word in their language. Not an OT word, but a new word with similarities to the old word. So with several possibilities, not all of which support you, why do you think that yours is correct? Because it seems to be a case of your deductive reasoning has taken you so far, and you use guesswork to make the important leaps.

Because it's beyond silly to assume Rosel would write in Trolloc language ofcourse! Like an Italian historian directly translating both Russian and Latin in 4 sentences that are closely related, look the same in buildup and still be able to make it read like a Bard's poem.

Russian and Latin is a poor example. If we are working under the assumption that the Trolloc tongue is derived from Old Tongue, then it would be like an Italian historian throwing in a Latin word and being able to make it fit. Which doesn't sound all that unlikely to me.

 

What happened at VoG is not ongoing. He might have seen it then, he doesn't see it now. Likewise, he doesn't have the memories of all his previous lives now, though he did have a brief flash of them during VoG.

You don't know what Rand experiences when he's holding saidin after VoG. And even if (big if, since the Dragon is no longer blinded) it was a one time deal...how would you explain it? As a sidenote, I don't think he saw all his past lives; he saw the lives of currently living threads, I think.

Well, he did state that he remembered many lives, which is why most people take it as his past lives. Yours is not an interpretation I've seen before, but no matter. The simple fact is that there's no indication that what happened on Dragonmount is ongoing. He says he remembers LTT's life as if it were a dream, but no indicator that everyone else is in there as well. As for how I would explain it, I would say there is too little information for reliable speculation. But given that it came hand in hand with his reintegration of LTT's memories and personality with his own, it might well have something to do with that.

 

Why would ishy need to plan on unleashing the DO for his work to have that effect? That is even worse speculation than anything mik said. Unless i missed it, mik was saying that the weakening of the pattern happened as a result of ishy's writings, not that his writings were written with that intent

No, it is exactly what Mik said. As Mik said, why else would a man of his beliefs write books?

then i miss read mik's post. it works better if it was an unintended side effect of his nihilistic writings.

 

as to your question, as you said

There are many nihilists in the world today, and in the past. Some of them have written books. By writing books, he can share his viewpoint with the world.

does he need another reason to write?

I don't think he needs another reason. Others disagree.

[Mr Ares]

I would say that the concepts of the fabric of society and the fabric of the Pattern are quite distinct - while both society and the Pattern are concepts which are related on some level, people being threads in both, they are still separate. A solitary human being might be separate from society, but by his existence is a part of the Pattern. Some animals are social by nature, others are not, but even those animals that do not form societies still have threads in the Pattern. So while human social groups will be reflected in the Pattern, the overlap between the two concepts is not absolute - they are different things. If every human in the world went our separate ways and had nothing to do with one another, human society would cease to exist, but the Pattern would endure. Consequently, because I see them as being different concepts, I don't think it follows that an attack on one is necessarily an attack on the other.

It's no wonder our premises are so different, if we don't seem to agree on this level even. I'm sorry to still have to say it, but I seriously don't understand how you can view in it this way. It just feels like your reasoning capabilities just don't mix with this point of view. There's no reason to assume (and yes, I do think it's assumption right here) that the fabric of the Pattern as woven by Time is anything different then all the Threads, that -for atleast a part- make op the fabric of society. I would say that it's illogical to see them as different concepts.

How would you explain the effect of Balefire? The results of Balefire show how reality is actually the same as Threads woven in the Pattern; reality is destroyed before the weave actually touches reality and that's because Threads in the Pattern are burned back to a point in Time before they were destroyed! Logic suggests that reality -the fabric of society / actions and events of people / call it what you will- is the same as Threads woven in the Pattern. They are a different description of something that's essentially the same. One way of looking at it describes how it's seen by people living...while the other way of looking at it describes what happens to the system at system-level.

It's just two different ways of describing the same thing. Not two different concepts that are quite distinct.

 

As a non-perfect analogy; you can report on what you see when you throw five chemicals together. Or you can write down the chemical process that is occuring.

They are not two concepts because they look different; they are one 'thing' described in two very different ways.

I hope that makes sense. *crosses fingers*

One big stumbling block is that fabric of society is a turn of phrase in general use. It is not a fantasy term. The Pattern, on the other hand, is. You could use the phrase fabric of society in the same way the series uses it to refer to real world societies, but you couldn't do the same by referring to the Pattern. Also, while both the fabric of society and the Pattern are made up of people, they are done so in different ways. A Robinson Crusoe figure, alone on an island, or a hermit, is someone disconnected from society, but their lives are still part of the Pattern. The lives of animals are still part of the Pattern - we have been told animals have threads - but not all animals are social. So the Pattern has to have meaning and existence outside of human society, and, indeed, outside of the concept of society altogether.

 

The mere fact of existence being meaningless does not mean that existence is intolerable. Bear in mind that while cyclical time is something that we can be pretty damn sure doesn't exist in our world, various cultures have believed in it. Some of those cultures have probably produced nihilists. Those nihilists would be faced with the same dilemma Elan was faced with. The mere fact of existence being meaningless doesn't itself indicate a desire to destroy existence. One could simply resign oneself to the fact that nothing one does matters, and carry on. A lot of people do just that. If you want to destroy the world, and your only chance is a long shot then it is logical to take the long shot rather than do nothing, because by taking the long shot you have a chance of success. But if Elan only later came to the desire to destroy the world, or didn't see it as a possibility that his books could accomplish, or something he could achieve at all, then the motivation you ascribe to him would not apply. Saying if he was aware that spreading unbelief and chaos would weaken the fabric of the Pattern he would do it is all well and good, but it is still a big if. If he was not aware, then his motivation is gone. There are big gaps in what we know of the Chosen and the AoL. We do not have the information to say, with any degree of certainty, that Elan knew enough to make the leap that his books would weaken the Pattern. And if his books aren't written for the purpose of weakening the Pattern, he needs a different motivation to write them. It's things like this that tend to from the foundations of our disagreements. Your reasoning is logical, but your premises are things which we do not know to be true. If Elan knew (or had reasonable suspicion) that chaos and unbelief would weaken the Pattern, then he might have written his books with the intention of weakening the Pattern. But we cannot say that the premise is true. Therefore we do not know if the conclusion is either.

"The mere fact of existence being meaningless does not mean that existence is intolerable."

The mere fact? Aren't you downplaying -or maybe, understandibly can't fully immagine- how a nihilist experiences his existence? How do the Shaido (very effectively I might add) break people (strong minds like Aes Sedai for instance) in WoT; by utterly useless, mind-numbing, hard labor. Now immagine that everything you do, in fact anything anyone does is even more useless then piling rocks and then putting them back. Add to that the fact that you can't even kill yourself to escape the loop, knowing about cyclic nature and reborn souls? Our difference lies not in our logic on this matter Mr Ares, but how we both percieve how true nihilism in Elan Morin's world feels like.

I do believe, that if you could feel how *I* feel (well... logically deducted, I'd call it..but I accept that it's not proof as such) Elan Morin must have felt, you'd find my premise the only logical conclusion given the facts we do know about.

I don't have to imagine how a nihilist experiences existence - I know from personal experience. There's no downplaying, it is just that simple. Philosophy and emotion don't always walk hand in hand. One can do things because one enjoys them, without believing that those things one enjoys are themselves a worthwhile use of time. Does coming onto Dragonmount add meaning to our lives, or does it merely provide an entertaining pastime?

 

There being evil done in the AoL indicates that humans are capable of evil, it doesn't mean that evil must be the result of an outside actor. Even with our knowledge of Shai'tan, that remains true - there are evils in the world not born of Him. And while your theory is conceivably true, Elan might have worked things out given his intelligence, and the time he had, that we don't know he did work it out is the very problem I initially put to you. Lack of evidence. We cannot be certain, or even very sure, that the premises are true, but if they are true then this is a reasonable conclusion.

Elan Morin knew there was an outside actor; the Creator. It's hard to say how hard it would be to immagine if you could come up with the thought that there had to be a counterpart when you've already read about one. Did RJ give the Soul of the Shadow his profession -a foremost philosopher- for no other reason then..well.. that he just had to have a profession in the AoL? I realise that is a bit of 'reverse engineerig' if you will. But then again, isn't that exactly what RJ did when he wrote the Wheel of Time? He knew where he was heading from the start. Elan Morin could have been a plummer...or a teacher.. or an attorny. And yet, he had the exact same occupation as the only other character in the books we see who seems to have figured it out.

The Creator is an outside force, but it is not the case that all good comes from the Creator, save in the sense that if the Creator hadn't created us in the first place there would be no-one to do or understand good. If we are created with the capacity for good and evil, then the mere fact of their being a Creator doesn't lead to there being a dark counterpart to that Creator. The existence of the Creator allows for, but does not indicate, the existence of others like him. As for his profession, we have already seen how that has impacted his character (rather, how his character impacted his profession) - while the others joined for personal gain, Ishy joined for annihilation. As Rand said, his logic destroyed him.

 

I seriously like it how we push eachother forward, regardless if you oppose or approve of the theory. I seriously think we're getting there. I would never have written it this clear and in digestible pieces if it weren't for the positive energy I keep getting from this discussion. Up for re-opening "Equal yet not"? I'd bet my left kidney and my best whisky we'd like it and would have different discussions then we used to have. (and I'm not going to bother if you don't feel like it)

I wouldn't recommend it. I seldom change my mind (it only tends to happen if people can put forward some fact I was unaware of, or interpretation I had not considered), so we'd likely get stuck in a loop again.

[FarShainMael]

Why would a nihilist, in this case Elan Morin who thinks creation, living, all of it, is absolutely pointless and meaningless to the point that he'd rather have it gone then know that his soul will go through a process of endless, meaningless lives, write books? Elan Morin was a man of cold logic and by that same logic that means that if everything is so pointless that you'd rather not go through all of it, there's absolutely no valid reason to write a book.  

 

There are many nihilists in the world today, and in the past. Some of them have written books. By writing books, he can share his viewpoint with the world.

 

But why would he bother? What would be the point?

 

Yes, there are many people who claim to be nihilists around in the RW (I knew one personally) and many of them have written books; but surely, a true nihilist, one who really believes what he espouses, would simply lose the will to live?

 

IMO, someone who calls himself a nihilist (which Elan Morin didn't, IIRC) but is still alive, and motivated to write books (or indeed motivated to do ANYTHING!), isn't nihilist, but destructive.

 

Accordingly, I think Elan Morin's motives in writing his books were indeed destructive. I don't think, though, that he had invoking the DO in mind specifically, though when the Bore was drilled its true nature was probably a welcome surprise (though again, why would a a nihilist welcome anything..). Nor do I think that Lanfear/Meirin had any such motivation herself; she was after power, pure and simple.

 

 

Just because existence is fundamentally meaningless, doesn't mean you can't enjoy life. If anything, the desire to commit suicide off the back of your philosophical belief is (self-)destructive, a desire to destroy the world is destructive. Merely perceiving the world as something lacking meaning or purpose doesn't mean you have to hate life. If you are of the belief that there is a meaning to life, that there is some greater purpose, then you might act according to that belief, but it doesn't mean that your every single waking moment is focused on nothing but that. It is merely an extension of that principle. You can write books because you enjoy writing, because you want to share your viewpoint with the world, even if you accept that this is a meaningless task.

 

 

But then that task does have a meaning and a purpose - to provide you with enjoyment and to share with others!

 

I'm not being picky to be irritating. I'm trying to show what nihilism is when taken to its conclusion. Not all 'nihilists' take it that far, of course.

[Mr Ares]

Why would a nihilist, in this case Elan Morin who thinks creation, living, all of it, is absolutely pointless and meaningless to the point that he'd rather have it gone then know that his soul will go through a process of endless, meaningless lives, write books? Elan Morin was a man of cold logic and by that same logic that means that if everything is so pointless that you'd rather not go through all of it, there's absolutely no valid reason to write a book.

 

There are many nihilists in the world today, and in the past. Some of them have written books. By writing books, he can share his viewpoint with the world.

 

But why would he bother? What would be the point?

 

Yes, there are many people who claim to be nihilists around in the RW (I knew one personally) and many of them have written books; but surely, a true nihilist, one who really believes what he espouses, would simply lose the will to live?

 

IMO, someone who calls himself a nihilist (which Elan Morin didn't, IIRC) but is still alive, and motivated to write books (or indeed motivated to do ANYTHING!), isn't nihilist, but destructive.

 

Accordingly, I think Elan Morin's motives in writing his books were indeed destructive. I don't think, though, that he had invoking the DO in mind specifically, though when the Bore was drilled its true nature was probably a welcome surprise (though again, why would a a nihilist welcome anything..). Nor do I think that Lanfear/Meirin had any such motivation herself; she was after power, pure and simple.

 

 

Just because existence is fundamentally meaningless, doesn't mean you can't enjoy life. If anything, the desire to commit suicide off the back of your philosophical belief is (self-)destructive, a desire to destroy the world is destructive. Merely perceiving the world as something lacking meaning or purpose doesn't mean you have to hate life. If you are of the belief that there is a meaning to life, that there is some greater purpose, then you might act according to that belief, but it doesn't mean that your every single waking moment is focused on nothing but that. It is merely an extension of that principle. You can write books because you enjoy writing, because you want to share your viewpoint with the world, even if you accept that this is a meaningless task.

But then that task does have a meaning and a purpose - to provide you with enjoyment and to share with others!

 

I'm not being picky to be irritating. I'm trying to show what nihilism is when taken to its conclusion. Not all 'nihilists' take it that far, of course.

The task might have a purpose, but nihilism is a philosophy that proposes that existence is without inherent meaning. There is no "meaning of life". While you might enjoy something, it has no wider value than that. Inactivity and suicide is not the conclusion of nihilistic thought, although it is a conclusion.

[thisguy]

New Zealand isn't tropical at all, it isn't even subtropical. SG is in the north, so it would be well outside the tropics as well. Tropical has a specific meaning (being inside the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, the furthest points from the equator where the sun is still directly overhead).

 

All right. Hawaii has universities so do the virgin islands. So, back to my point, what's the big deal?

[thisguy]

 

He sat and thought for a minute, still signing the book, pondered, then answered.

The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. The way he put is was finite but infinitely reusable.

 

Makes no sense to me,but it's his series.

 

Cause then how did standing flows work? Or tied off weaves.

.

Perhaps much in the same way that you could view matter in our universe to be finite. It's billions of galaxies with billions of stars in each galaxy. Say you could channel all matter to earth much in the same way you could channel the One Power in WoT. There's no way we would be able to use all the matter present in our current universe on earth. Maybe the One Power works in much the same way. I understand the problem you're presenting, but even a finite amount of Power that recycles without entropy can be viewed as infinite for practical use.

 

New matter is being created though. The universe it inself is called infinite yet it is expanding, which means it can't be infinite. I guess when I hear finite, it means it should be able to be all used up. Just like I don't get how the "Pool of souls" is finite, yet can't be all used up. It's, well not quite an oxymoron, but makes no sense. Either something can be used all up, or it can't.

 

There's a finite amount of liquid in a bottle of soda but you can refill it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

He sat and thought for a minute, still signing the book, pondered, then answered.

The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. The way he put is was finite but infinitely reusable.

 

Makes no sense to me,but it's his series.

 

Cause then how did standing flows work? Or tied off weaves.

.

Perhaps much in the same way that you could view matter in our universe to be finite. It's billions of galaxies with billions of stars in each galaxy. Say you could channel all matter to earth much in the same way you could channel the One Power in WoT. There's no way we would be able to use all the matter present in our current universe on earth. Maybe the One Power works in much the same way. I understand the problem you're presenting, but even a finite amount of Power that recycles without entropy can be viewed as infinite for practical use.

 

New matter is being created though. The universe it inself is called infinite yet it is expanding, which means it can't be infinite. I guess when I hear finite, it means it should be able to be all used up. Just like I don't get how the "Pool of souls" is finite, yet can't be all used up. It's, well not quite an oxymoron, but makes no sense. Either something can be used all up, or it can't.

 

There's a finite amount of liquid in a bottle of soda but you can refill it.

 

I'm not sure why there is a big fuss about this, it is pretty simple.

 

Finite amount of OP available, lets say 5million litres for the sake of a measurement.

 

When a person embraces the OP, they draw on the pool, lets say 1L for Rand at full strength.

 

After he has woven whatever it is he has done, the 1L goes back into the pool.

 

Finite but infinitely reusable.

 

Edit:

Tied off weaves eventually dissolve, some are stronger than others (like the ones on Callandor) but eventually they would dissolve over the Ages (talking in the thousands/hundreds of thousands of years)

 

A tied off weave wouldn't dent the supply, it would be like removing a grain of sand from the Sahara. Even millions of tied off weaves would make no real impact. I would say that it is impossible to actually draw in the full pool of the OP, it would destroy the world before it got to that point.

 

As for HOW it manages to return, I would say, on a simple scale to demonstrate, it is like an Hourglass, it is in the pool, when someone wants to channel, it is like the hourglass tipped over, gives a bit of the sand, then when it is finished, it is tipped back again returning to the original side. (obviously on a more complex level that doesn't involve any actual tipping, but the point remains.)