Mat Cauthon

[thisguy]

So, I debated about putting this here or in the general discussion but...

 

Mat Cauthon is somewhat based on Odin from Norse myths.

 

Symbols of Odin - the spear and the raven

 

Odin is known to be a trickster and gives up one of his eyes in exchange for wisdom.

 

Odin is hung upside down on the world tree

 

During Ragnarok (Nordic armageddon), Odin fights Fenris the wolf and is swallowed by the wolf. One of Odin's sons then kills the wold by tearing its jaws apart. I think there's a chance that Olver either saves or avenges Mat in the last book.

[shortkut]

The closest thing we have to fenrir are darkhounds which are more Perrin's territory. Just because RJ borrows a lot from one mythological character for a particular character does not mean he takes everything. Olver might still save Mat, but not from a fenrir

[thisguy]

No, I don't mean from a wolf but Mat matches up with Odin quite a bit. Odin has two ravens, their names translate to "Thought" and "Memory". Obviously, memories have a lot to do with Mat.

[bcspeer]

So Olver will somehow save Mat during the Last Battle or the Battle for Caemlyn or whatever conflict Mat gets caught up in

[thisguy]

So Olver will somehow save Mat during the Last Battle or the Battle for Caemlyn or whatever conflict Mat gets caught up in

That's my guess.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

So, I debated about putting this here or in the general discussion but...

 

Mat Cauthon is somewhat based on Odin from Norse myths.

 

Symbols of Odin - the spear and the raven

 

Odin is known to be a trickster and gives up one of his eyes in exchange for wisdom.

 

Odin is hung upside down on the world tree

 

During Ragnarok (Nordic armageddon), Odin fights Fenris the wolf and is swallowed by the wolf. One of Odin's sons then kills the wold by tearing its jaws apart. I think there's a chance that Olver either saves or avenges Mat in the last book.

I would say thats pretty sound thinking but who is Fenris represented as?

[thisguy]

So, I debated about putting this here or in the general discussion but...

 

Mat Cauthon is somewhat based on Odin from Norse myths.

 

Symbols of Odin - the spear and the raven

 

Odin is known to be a trickster and gives up one of his eyes in exchange for wisdom.

 

Odin is hung upside down on the world tree

 

During Ragnarok (Nordic armageddon), Odin fights Fenris the wolf and is swallowed by the wolf. One of Odin's sons then kills the wold by tearing its jaws apart. I think there's a chance that Olver either saves or avenges Mat in the last book.

I would say thats pretty sound thinking but who is Fenris represented as?

I don't think Fenris matters. But when Odin hung himself from the world tree he did it to get a method of writing - runes - so that he could write down and keep memories. I don't know if Fenris matters at all, just that a son figure either avenges him or saves him. Mat may get two tattoos - one on each shoulder - of ravens. Odin's ravens sat on his shoulders.

[Luckers]

No, I don't mean from a wolf but Mat matches up with Odin quite a bit. Odin has two ravens, their names translate to "Thought" and "Memory". Obviously, memories have a lot to do with Mat.

 

'Thought is the arrow of time. Memory never fades'.

[thisguy]

No, I don't mean from a wolf but Mat matches up with Odin quite a bit. Odin has two ravens, their names translate to "Thought" and "Memory". Obviously, memories have a lot to do with Mat.

 

'Thought is the arrow of time. Memory never fades'.

 

BAM! Nice catch, Luckers!!!

[thisguy]

So, I debated about putting this here or in the general discussion but...

 

Mat Cauthon is somewhat based on Odin from Norse myths.

 

Symbols of Odin - the spear and the raven

 

Odin is known to be a trickster and gives up one of his eyes in exchange for wisdom.

 

Odin is hung upside down on the world tree

 

During Ragnarok (Nordic armageddon), Odin fights Fenris the wolf and is swallowed by the wolf. One of Odin's sons then kills the wold by tearing its jaws apart. I think there's a chance that Olver either saves or avenges Mat in the last book.

I would say thats pretty sound thinking but who is Fenris represented as?

 

IF - and this is a big if - RJ came up with a character who was supposed to be a Fenris to Matt's Odin, I'd guess the giant myrddraal guy. Fenris was so big his top jaw touched the heavens and his bottom the earth when he opened his mouth.

[Vardar]

So, I debated about putting this here or in the general discussion but...

 

Mat Cauthon is somewhat based on Odin from Norse myths.

 

Symbols of Odin - the spear and the raven

 

Odin is known to be a trickster and gives up one of his eyes in exchange for wisdom.

 

Odin is hung upside down on the world tree

 

During Ragnarok (Nordic armageddon), Odin fights Fenris the wolf and is swallowed by the wolf. One of Odin's sons then kills the wold by tearing its jaws apart. I think there's a chance that Olver either saves or avenges Mat in the last book.

I would say thats pretty sound thinking but who is Fenris represented as?

 

IF - and this is a big if - RJ came up with a character who was supposed to be a Fenris to Matt's Odin, I'd guess the giant myrddraal guy. Fenris was so big his top jaw touched the heavens and his bottom the earth when he opened his mouth.

 

Which would make a sick sort of sense since channeling can't stop the Super-Fade. So who do you get to stop a super-fade?

 

A Super-Soldier.

 

And since the Capt is busy, Mat to the rescue!

[Neophyte]

Assuming that Mat's foxhead medallion ter'angreal can protect him from the direct effects of the True Power, which Shaidar Haran seems to wield, then Mat would be the best bet to go against him.

 

Skill, courage, and luck - who better to dance with Jak o' the Shadows?

[Vardar]

Assuming that Mat's foxhead medallion ter'angreal can protect him from the direct effects of the True Power, which Shaidar Haran seems to wield, then Mat would be the best bet to go against him.

 

Skill, courage, and luck - who better to dance with Jak o' the Shadows?

 

And to get serious for a second.

 

1) Mat wields a spear. Yes longer, but it's still a spear.

2) The vast majority of the spear wielders in the story call war dance.

3) Mat's theme song is what? That's right, Dance the Jak O' Shadows

4) You have a villian who channelers can't touch.

5) You already have Mat beating someone who channelrs can't touch.

 

Biggest foreshadowing of the series? Perhaps...

[Sharaman]

Darkside channelers can't touch Shaidar Haran. We don't know for sure if lightside channelers can't.

[snooze1128]

Not gonna lie, I'm happy I didn't realize that so many events & characters from the wheel of time are based on mythology. I was perfectly content being under the impression that all this stuff was novel!

[thisguy]

Not gonna lie, I'm happy I didn't realize that so many events & characters from the wheel of time are based on mythology. I was perfectly content being under the impression that all this stuff was novel!

 

Tolkien, who is the grandfather of the Fantasy genre, took so much from mythology (mostly Nordic) that I see no problem in RJ doing the same. From what I can see, RJ was inspired by Tolkien's work, Nordic myths, various European mythology (one example is the Green Man), Judeo-Christian mythology/religion, Arthurian tales, possibly the tales of Robin Hood (which has many ties to Arthurian/Christ legends) and on and on. Just because a writer borrows or is inspired by other works doesn't devalue their own work. Most writer's do that.

[thisguy]

Assuming that Mat's foxhead medallion ter'angreal can protect him from the direct effects of the True Power, which Shaidar Haran seems to wield, then Mat would be the best bet to go against him.

 

Skill, courage, and luck - who better to dance with Jak o' the Shadows?

 

And to get serious for a second.

 

1) Mat wields a spear. Yes longer, but it's still a spear.

2) The vast majority of the spear wielders in the story call war dance.

3) Mat's theme song is what? That's right, Dance the Jak O' Shadows

4) You have a villian who channelers can't touch.

5) You already have Mat beating someone who channelrs can't touch.

 

Biggest foreshadowing of the series? Perhaps...

 

Great catches! The only thing is, if it sticks with the Odin myths completely, Matt dies. :(

[thisguy]

I've been trying to reason out who Perrin might be based on. Rand to some degree is based on Christ and Arthur (and other messianic figures). Matt on Odin and Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns. Perrin is a hard one - if I had to look make a guess, I'd say inspiration came from Conan, Thor and old European wolf myths/legends that were turned on their ear.

[Vardar]

Darkside channelers can't touch Shaidar Haran. We don't know for sure if lightside channelers can't.

 

Doesn't matter who's side you're on, the power comes from the same pool. He cuts them off from the source completely. Not just cut off, they can't even sense it. He's a walking stedding. A walking evil stedding.

[Treebeard]

In this case i think RJ went a little to far. I mean some lines just screams to me when i read them , even if don't think that borrowing is bad in general there must be a portion of subtlety needed.

[LoLPoR]

Subtlety is overrated, he wanted people to know that he was drawing from different mythologies since the stories are changed so much by the time the age they were dawned in comes back around on the wheel. By doing this he leaves it open as to whether or not we could be an age that merely forgot about the one power and have our own legends that are similar to the ones he is creating in RandLand. Some mythological references were subtle and others blatant, it was intentional and well done in my opinion.

[Treebeard]

Subtlety is overrated, he wanted people to know that he was drawing from different mythologies since the stories are changed so much by the time the age they were dawned in comes back around on the wheel. By doing this he leaves it open as to whether or not we could be an age that merely forgot about the one power and have our own legends that are similar to the ones he is creating in RandLand. Some mythological references were subtle and others blatant, it was intentional and well done in my opinion.

Well i cant see how you can say subtlety is overrated. To make such blunt parallel to Odin just makes me think that he underestimated his readers ( for the only time in my opinion). You say subtlety is overrated can you give an example or explain more closely ? ( i am not mocking you , i am totally sincere i want to get other viewpoints)

[thisguy]

I think it was done purposefully. Drawing callandor from the stone is possibly the most blatant in your face drawing from mythology, unless you think Rand - the messiah figure - being stabbed in the side is. If you know enough Nordic mythology, you'll see Tolkien borrowed heavily from it. I actually have no problem with it at all. They call Matt the trickster, which is what Odin was sometimes called, early in the books. They also say (they being B'alzamon) that they've dealt with him before. I think LoLPoR has it right. He did it all purposefully.

Even before I realized how heavily he borrowed from mythology, I realized how heavily he borrowed from history. The Cairhienins shave the front of their head like the Chinese did. They where their flags on their armor, rising off their back and over their heads, like the Japanese did. He mix and matches and makes it his own. Personally, I like it and think it takes great skill to pull off as well as he did.

[Neophyte]

Subtlety is overrated, he wanted people to know that he was drawing from different mythologies since the stories are changed so much by the time the age they were dawned in comes back around on the wheel. By doing this he leaves it open as to whether or not we could be an age that merely forgot about the one power and have our own legends that are similar to the ones he is creating in RandLand. Some mythological references were subtle and others blatant, it was intentional and well done in my opinion.

Well i cant see how you can say subtlety is overrated. To make such blunt parallel to Odin just makes me think that he underestimated his readers ( for the only time in my opinion). You say subtlety is overrated can you give an example or explain more closely ? ( i am not mocking you , i am totally sincere i want to get other viewpoints)

 

Well, I'm not sure how the references to Odin for Mat are any more "blunt" than say, for example, Perrin making a hammer called Mah'alleinir.

 

References to mythology are interwoven through the narrative, but in each case they are made more complicated. This is consonant with the theory of the Wheel - Jordan isn't merely lifting from other myths, he's actually pretending to create the origin of those stories. We're supposedly seeing the origin of the myths we now associate with Odin, Thor, Tyr, etc., just as we're supposedly living in the origin of the Randlanders' myths about "Mosk and Merc," etc. It fits with the idea of the Wheel. We can argue about how "subtle" it is, or the relative value of that "subtlety," I suppose, but at least he's consistent.

[Iroquois Pliskin]

Subtlety is overrated, he wanted people to know that he was drawing from different mythologies since the stories are changed so much by the time the age they were dawned in comes back around on the wheel. By doing this he leaves it open as to whether or not we could be an age that merely forgot about the one power and have our own legends that are similar to the ones he is creating in RandLand. Some mythological references were subtle and others blatant, it was intentional and well done in my opinion.

Well i cant see how you can say subtlety is overrated. To make such blunt parallel to Odin just makes me think that he underestimated his readers ( for the only time in my opinion). You say subtlety is overrated can you give an example or explain more closely ? ( i am not mocking you , i am totally sincere i want to get other viewpoints)

 

Well, I'm not sure how the references to Odin for Mat are any more "blunt" than say, for example, Perrin making a hammer called Mah'alleinir.

 

References to mythology are interwoven through the narrative, but in each case they are made more complicated. This is consonant with the theory of the Wheel - Jordan isn't merely lifting from other myths, he's actually pretending to create the origin of those stories. We're supposedly seeing the origin of the myths we now associate with Odin, Thor, Tyr, etc., just as we're supposedly living in the origin of the Randlanders' myths about "Mosk and Merc," etc. It fits with the idea of the Wheel. We can argue about how "subtle" it is, or the relative value of that "subtlety," I suppose, but at least he's consistent.

 

This I agree with.

 

it's even deeper than that though. I think the point is we aren't seeing any "origins" because of the fact that "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the wheel of time". These ideas and concepts are eternally present because the souls they represent are eternally present. So long as there exists an age, these things WILL necessarily become part of mythos. The concepts exist separately from the things the represent eternally, but there will always be instantiations of the concepts, even within our own reality because we are part of the turning of the wheel.

 

I think the reason that RJ isn't being subtle is because we are taking the point of view of the Creator, we see all of the pattern for what it is. We have "all the information" so things seems obvious to us,but within the pattern of things,it's a new adventure for those participating. I think it's kind of a commentary on the nature of legends and humanity, that it's possible for things to both be novel and repetitive, it only depends on were you stand.