To Live You Must Die

[Alonin]

First... what foreshadowing has there been of Nynaeve ripping Rand out of TAR or healing his death? I've read nothing that constitutes a good foreshadowing.

 

Second, I prefer the Idea of Rand dying and staying dead... or even dying twice. My favorite theory of mine is Fain kills Rand, Rand steals Moridin's body. Rand in Moridin's body, fights shadar haran who injures him while dying. Rand seals the prison (or kills the dark one... unlikely) and then dies of his SH inflicted wounds. and then STAYS dead.

 

Third, when Brigitte was ripped out of the wheel, she was the person of the legends, of every story, not just one. So, min saw all the viewings of that person, all the timelines. In comparison to rand, who is both LTT and himself, min only saw the viewings for Rand. So in summary, Min saw Brigitte as the person she was in TAR, the Hero of thousands of legends. So, it could be very likely she is still ripped from the wheel. and her cycle will no longer continue. So, if Nynaeve ripped Rand out of TAR, he'd no longer be bound to the wheel and as the wheel turns, the world would face the DO with no Dragon. and be doomed.

 

Fourth, for the he dies and is called back by the horn part... what's to say the horn survives the last battle?

 

edit: third & 4th parts added.

[Suttree]

Third, when Brigitte was ripped out of the wheel, she was the person of the legends, of every story, not just one. So, min saw all the viewings of that person, all the timelines. In comparison to rand, who is both LTT and himself, min only saw the viewings for Rand. So in summary, Min saw Brigitte as the person she was in TAR, the Hero of thousands of legends. So, it could be very likely she is still ripped from the wheel. and her cycle will no longer continue. So, if Nynaeve ripped Rand out of TAR, he'd no longer be bound to the wheel and as the wheel turns, the world would face the DO with no Dragon. and be doomed.

 

Birgitte is losing her memories of those other lives specifically because the wheel is weaving her back into the pattern so that isn't a concern. As for Rand the various "death" theories can be found here. He will not be staying dead, there is far to much forshadowing for that to happen.

 

https://docs.google....8ECoELNMgxzzkIM

[Terez]

Min's viewings are always about the future.

[MarkDiLillo]

Maybe Rand will just go back into TAR after he's done being ripped out and saving the day...

 

I cant see him surviving at the end of the story. Especially given that famous funeral quote about him.

[Randommer]

Maybe Rand will just go back into TAR after he's done being ripped out and saving the day...

 

I cant see him surviving at the end of the story. Especially given that famous funeral quote about him.

Same. I think he'll die and either be brought back or return in some way, but then die again by the end. It'll be really sad though - if any character could use a break...

[Alonin]

Well he won't be staying dead completely.... sorta. He will come back to life... then die again.

[Alonin]

Also, I don't think Min's viewings refer to future lives. Other wise she would see multiple lifespans around Rand in his role of the Dragon. So the viewings around Brigitte couldn't be future lives.

[Terez]

Rand hasn't been ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod; he was born in the normal way, and his personality was developed in the normal way. And RJ said Min's viewings are always about the future, multiple times.

[Suttree]

Also, I don't think Min's viewings refer to future lives.

Interview: Nov 11th, 1998

 

MSN eFriends Interview (Verbatim)

Slayer

 

Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the seven towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

Robert Jordan

 

Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.

[Alonin]

Yes... I get it. the Future. But does that encompass future lives, like as in lives after dying and then being born again?

[elric]

it 11 pages so far so please exuse me for not reading it , and if i repeat someone my apologies.

 

Rand is not just Rand , rand is the Dragon.

as the Dragon rand is 2 ppl combine Rand and LTT (i think LTT is the light that protect Rand from the madness that Nyn had dwelved).

 

in Order for Rand to live -> LTT who is currently part of Rand must die (as he actually want or atleast whine that he want).

[Neophyte]

Yes... I get it. the Future. But does that encompass future lives, like as in lives after dying and then being born again?

 

In Birgitte's case, it pretty much has to. To quote Winter's Heart chapter 12:

 

Besides, those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

When Min knows what a vision means, she knows, and in this case, she knows that it is more than one lifetime. Also, the "ugly man" [Gaidal] can't be both older and younger than Birgitte in the same lifetime.

[Terez]

I love that I posted on this thread and votes went up for my theory, at the moment from 22 to 27. Bodyswap was closing in; not any more. I didn't even make an argument for the theory; I just posted!

[herid]

I'm still unable to reconcile all the prophecies and viewings with the manner or even the number of Rand's deaths. Maybe it's some crazy combination of the listed choices. I really wish the people who've read the whole book (who are they?) could comment on whether or not they think all the prophecies were fulfilled satisfactorily in their opinion.

 

Anyway, speaking of various crazy possibilities, if Rand comes back a Hero of the Horn can he be killed in any way? Can any of the Heroes of the Horn even be killed when they come for the Horn? Or will they be in some sort of god mode? That would be very strange but Birgitte seemed to suggest that this is exactly the case. She told Nyn this:

 

As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us.

--TSR, CH52

And if a Hero of the Horn is killed in LB what happens to them? Are they gone for good? go back to TAR? the latter doesn't seem to make sense as the Horn seems to produce a merging of TAR and reality.

[Terez]

Which prophecies are you having trouble reconciling? The only problem I can see really is the suggested chronology of the TOM dark prophecy, but that's only a problem if you disbelieve that Moridin will kill Rand.

[herid]

yes, the chronology is a part of it. I really can't see how the Lord of the Evening in the Dark prophecy can be anybody but the DO. I do know of the argument LTT= Lord of the Morning, Moridin=Lord of the Evening but it also says

And He shall take our

eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and he shall take our skin, for

our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will

we praise.

This can only be the DO IMO. Then the Broken Champion can only be Rand. The DO would blow out anybody else like a candle. Then there is the fact Broken Champion's blood will be spilled and bring the Drakness and the other prophecy that Rand's blood will be spilled twice , once for mourning once for birth. I don't believe in convoluted interpretations of the prophecies. All the prophecies that we've seen resolve so far have been very straightforward. That must also mean that the Broken Champion is Rand and not Gawyn or Galad or anybody else sharing his blood.

 

But as I mentioned in another thread this comes after the destruction of the Broken Wolf(as you suggest that's likely Rand too) and I don't know how that can work.

Also, it would seem that Rand's death (at least one of them) has to be a willing sacrifice based on Min's viewing that Alivia will help him die. (It would fit messianic parallels well too). That rules out a quick death like by balefire for example (unless Alivia is the one who does it).

Lastly, there is the first Dark prophecy from tGH that has to fit into this somehow. It seems to indicate that Rand will be turned and made to serve Lanfear before (and after) his death. This could happen, say, if he fully merges with Moridin and loses control of his body and will have to die to break the link but again I don't see how to fit this with the rest.

[thisguy]

As far as I'm aware the Towers of Midnight are either a Seanchan military complex or The Forsaken. If it's the Forsaken, the prophecy makes is seem that he will fall to all of them - or at least all of the remaining ones.

 

Does anyone know if there's a Seanchan military group which trains or is stationed at the Towers of Midnight?

[Terez]

yes, the chronology is a part of it. I really can't see how the Lord of the Evening in the Dark prophecy can be anybody but the DO. I do know of the argument LTT= Lord of the Morning, Moridin=Lord of the Evening but it also says

And He shall take our

eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and he shall take our skin, for

our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will

we praise.

This can only be the DO IMO. Then the Broken Champion can only be Rand. The DO would blow out anybody else like a candle. As I mentioned in another thread this comes after the destruction of the Broken Wolf and I don't know how that can work.

 

With Rand as Broken Wolf, two ways: his destruction refers not to death, but either 1) the destruction of who he is as a person, or 2) destruction that he causes. I don't believe that the Lord of the Evening can only be the Dark One, though. I believe it could be either Moridin or Rand. If it's Rand, obviously the Broken Champion is someone else. Neither the Dark One nor Moridin has ever been referred to as the Lord of the Evening, and as Lord of the Morning, it actually makes a certain amount of sense for his evil twin to be called Lord of the Evening (and in that case I think the Broken Champion would have to be Gawyn). But it also makes sense for his ancient (human) enemy to be called that. It makes less sense in my mind for it to refer to the Dark One. Either way, I do think this scene probably refers to Rand's death because Rand's death should coincide with the onset of darkness.

 

And then there is my second choice for Broken Wolf, Lan, and as I've said elsewhere, the only other option I think worth mentioning. But overall I try not to worry too much about this prophecy because it's a little bit awkward. Brandon's clues do not always have the same logical consistency that RJ's clues have; he enjoys red herrings, and his deception methods are very different.

 

Also, it would seem that Rand's death (at least one of them) has to be a willing sacrifice based on Min's viewing that Alivia will help him die.

 

The 'help' implies a favor, but doesn't necessarily imply that Rand asked for the favor. It's possible it will play out like that, but I think that if it does it will be a small voice kind of thing. Rand has already embraced death, but I think the worst is yet to come for him.

[Terez]

Does anyone know if there's a Seanchan military group which trains or is stations at the Towers of Midnight?

 

No, they are ceremonially vacant.

[thisguy]

Does anyone know if there's a Seanchan military group which trains or is stations at the Towers of Midnight?

 

No, they are ceremonially vacant.

 

 

Grrrrrrrrr...... that's really annoying. Thanks.

 

If Alivia is going to help him die it could be a parallel to the idea that Judas did what Jesus wanted selling him out to the Roman authorities.

[Terez]

I don't think Alivia is being set up to play Judas...that will more likely be a combination of Mat and Gawyn.

[thisguy]

I don't think Alivia is being set up to play Judas...that will more likely be a combination of Mat and Gawyn.

You may be right. Mat seems to have been set up for that since almost the beginning.

 

Gawyn... I'm not sure. At this point he's met his mother and knows her sister's kids are Rand's kids... I wonder if he's going to use the bloodrings himself or give two of them out.

[herid]

yes, the chronology is a part of it. I really can't see how the Lord of the Evening in the Dark prophecy can be anybody but the DO. I do know of the argument LTT= Lord of the Morning, Moridin=Lord of the Evening but it also says

And He shall take our

eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and he shall take our skin, for

our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will

we praise.

This can only be the DO IMO. Then the Broken Champion can only be Rand. The DO would blow out anybody else like a candle. As I mentioned in another thread this comes after the destruction of the Broken Wolf and I don't know how that can work.

 

With Rand as Broken Wolf, two ways: his destruction refers not to death, but either 1) the destruction of who he is as a person, or 2) destruction that he causes.

I can maybe buy 1) but not 2). as I said I believe that the prophecies will have straightforward resolutions. At least the ones written by RJ. this one was written by BS of course...

BTW, Moiraine might be yet another person who plays a role in Rand's death. She promised him in tEoTW that she will kill him before she lets the DO have him and the two Dark prophecies suggest that this might happen. And of course there is also Demandred who I'm sure will have a part in Rand's death too.

But overall I try not to worry too much about this prophecy because it's a little bit awkward. Brandon's clues do not always have the same logical consistency that RJ's clues have; he enjoys red herrings, and his deception methods are very different.

 

That's what I'm really afraid of and which is why I said I wanted to hear from the people who read the book on whether on not all the prophecies had satisfactory resolutions.

Also, it would seem that Rand's death (at least one of them) has to be a willing sacrifice based on Min's viewing that Alivia will help him die.

 

The 'help' implies a favor, but doesn't necessarily imply that Rand asked for the favor. It's possible it will play out like that, but I think that if it does it will be a small voice kind of thing. Rand has already embraced death, but I think the worst is yet to come for him.

I suspect it will be more than that. I don't see Rand paying too much attention to Alivia's advice and I also think that her super strength in the power has to play a role in this somehow.

[Terez]

Moiraine might be yet another person who plays a role in Rand's death. She promised him in tEoTW that she will kill him before she lets the DO have him and the two Dark prophecies suggest that this might happen. And of course there is also Demandred who I'm sure will have a part in Rand's death too.

 

I have written a lot about Moiraine's role in Rand's death, but I've begun to doubt it for several reasons, partly because of some reverse psychology from the direction of Team Jordan (can't really go into the details of that). I think if Moiraine is involved it will be on top of Gawyn, balefiring Rand to save his soul from the Dark One, but that complicates the issue highly. As for Demandred, I doubt he will have anything to do with Rand's death, despite his efforts. 'Almost' and 'not quite' are, after all, the story of his life.

[herid]

As for Demandred, I doubt he will have anything to do with Rand's death, despite his efforts. 'Almost' and 'not quite' are, after all, the story of his life.

I think he will. Because of his name I think he is a parallel of Mordred. The other two obvious Mordreds Moridin and Mordeth already gave Rand unhealable wounds and I think Demandred is just about to do his Mordred part during the battle for Caemlyn (Camlann). He might not finish Rand off but I believe he will contribute to his eventual death.