To Live You Must Die

[thisguy]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more your idea seems to be something like what's coming. Very nice

[Tiberius]

Again, because of Min's viewing.

Maybe I'm not reading it right, but I see nothing in Min's viewing that would make my scenario impossible. What am I missing?

[Terez]

Again, because of Min's viewing.

Maybe I'm not reading it right, but I see nothing in Min's viewing that would make my scenario impossible. What am I missing?

 

The fact that Min sees she will be older than Gaidal. If she were to die and return to Tel'aran'rhiod and then be born the normal way, she would be younger than him just like she always has been.

[Terez]

Ripping someone from TAR, of Pushing them out of a place where they were placed for safety just doesn't sound too good. Or even neutral. It sounds pretty evil to me.

 

That is not a good argument.

 

Meh, I haven't posted here in forever, since it usually isn't worth the effort, but I thought I'd just put this out there...

 

Nynaeve not only has a photographic memory, but she excels at making little changes to weaves. The way she has experimented with delving brought her to curing taint-induced madness, for example. With Moghedien's weave, it was meant to kill Birgitte...she was wrapped in darkness before she was thrown into the "real" world. If Nynaeve were to tweak it a bit, perhaps merge it with some sort of Healing weave, she could probably wrap Rand in light, rather than darkness, and bring him into the real world in a gentler fashion, one that would befit the savior of the world (instead of being thrown out of "heaven" and almost dying from the shock). It would be good symbolism (bringing light back to the world in the moment it is at its darkest, as well as the whole "wrapping him in light is good, wrapping someone in darkness is evil" thing), but it would also likely mean that there would be no need for him to have a choker put around his neck in the form of a bond. He would basically be resurrected in a way that would continue his life as he left it (and be far more comparable to Jesus descending from heaven, in light, than if he were forced out using the dark, evil-intented weave Moghedien used on Birgitte). Throw in the fact that he'd come back without his connection to Moridin, without the black spikes in his head (and the need for the light that covers them), and without a bunch of bonds people could use against him, and you have the savior the world needs. Especially once everything goes to hell in a handbasket with him gone.

 

Rand has never seen his bond with his three chosen women as a choker around his neck, and the three women are part of the resurrection prophecies, so this seems overcomplicated to me, especially considering that the Pattern seems to have purposefully put Elayne in the right spot to figure out the second half of the resurrection process.

[TristanWebb]

The Nyn quote is suspect IMO. She is stil upset from causing Birgitte getting ripped out, as the rest of the passage explained. The Birgitte quote from the book prior is that he is almost always born years before her. Min's viewing shows that the cycle is disrupted a bit if he is always born before her anyway. Some images are him older and some are him younger, but they are both the same person.

[Terez]

No, it says he is almost always born 'well before' her. There's nothing suspect about Nynaeve's information unless you are grasping.

[TristanWebb]

Min's vision shows both younger and older versions of Gaidel. So either the ripping out screwed the rebirth cycle so that it is no longer true, or that it was never true. Either way the quote is now wrong, no grasping needed.

[Terez]

Yes, her birth cycle is screwed up, and it's not going to be fixed. That's the whole point. She's not going to be returned to Tel'aran'rhiod; she is going to continue living and she will be much older than Gaidal when he shows up.

[Tiberius]

Again, because of Min's viewing.

Maybe I'm not reading it right, but I see nothing in Min's viewing that would make my scenario impossible. What am I missing?

 

The fact that Min sees she will be older than Gaidal. If she were to die and return to Tel'aran'rhiod and then be born the normal way, she would be younger than him just like she always has been.

 

But she sees him as both older AND younger. It doesn't state unequivocally that she WILL be older than him. I'm not seeing where it is not possible for her to be born again and have her viewing be invalid.

[Terez]

Again, because of Min's viewing.

Maybe I'm not reading it right, but I see nothing in Min's viewing that would make my scenario impossible. What am I missing?

 

The fact that Min sees she will be older than Gaidal. If she were to die and return to Tel'aran'rhiod and then be born the normal way, she would be younger than him just like she always has been.

 

But she sees him as both older AND younger. It doesn't state unequivocally that she WILL be older than him.

 

It does because her viewings are about the future.

 

I'm not seeing where it is not possible for her to be born again and have her viewing be invalid.

 

You could argue that she will die and return to Tel'aran'rhiod and be born again younger as usual this time (as mandated by Gaidal's birth having already occurred) and then at some point in the future she will be reborn yet again, this time before him, but it's overly convoluted IMO. I think people want Birgitte to return to Tel'aran'rhiod because they want her problem to be fixed, but Birgitte is a forerunner for Rand, meant to prove that the situation is workable, even in her circumstances which are more inconvenient than Rand's would be. It's just not necessary for her to return because she's losing most of her memories, and whether or not she retains any in the end, we know she'll find Gaidal. And she'll be someone for Rand to relate to in the years after the Last Battle; one of the themes of the series is that Rand will eventually get to go home and go back to being a shepherd, even if two of his wives are destined for public life. And Birgitte, being Elayne's Warder, would almost certainly be on the shortlist of people who know Rand is alive.

[Tiberius]

Not to convolute it any further, but I always assumed the viewing was in a state of temporal flux due to Cain already being born, but Min's vision pertains to the future where she will be younger. Hence the sometimes older sometimes younger part of the vision.

[Neophyte]

Not to convolute it any further, but I always assumed the viewing was in a state of temporal flux due to Cain already being born, but Min's vision pertains to the future where she will be younger. Hence the sometimes older sometimes younger part of the vision.

 

It seems pretty clear that the sometimes older sometimes younger bit is referring to different lives, not temporal flux. Min sees indications of "more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime," So, I doubt it is "temporal flux." The simpler explanation also makes more sense - Occam and all that.

 

In this spinning, she is functionally older than Gaidal because of the method of her incorporation into the Pattern. At least most, and possibly every other time, she is his junior. Luckily, because of Min, we know that Birgitte's worries are groundless - the Pattern will see them together, even though she is the elder this time around.

[Datakim]

It does because her viewings are about the future.

 

Just a random question. Is this actually confirmed in the series? I mean most people don't read RJ's comments online, so it seems to me that in order for Birgitte to serve as an example that being ripped out is not evil and does not permanently break the reincarnation process of a Hero, you would have to first have it established in the series that Mins visions are always of the future.

 

Would an average reader who is not aware of RJ's comments (vast majority) have the knowledge to realise that Mins vision mean that Birgitte is still tied to the wheel and as such its ok to rip out Rand too?

[FarShainMael]

Again, because of Min's viewing.

Maybe I'm not reading it right, but I see nothing in Min's viewing that would make my scenario impossible. What am I missing?

 

The fact that Min sees she will be older than Gaidal. If she were to die and return to Tel'aran'rhiod and then be born the normal way, she would be younger than him just like she always has been.

 

But she sees him as both older AND younger. It doesn't state unequivocally that she WILL be older than him. I'm not seeing where it is not possible for her to be born again and have her viewing be invalid.

 

I agree with you. Consider this:

 

 

Consider the Viewing itself:

 

 

WH: 12, A Lily in Winter, 296-297

BIRGITTE: "Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another… she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."

 

The bolded phrases may refer to the Birgitte who was standing in front of Min at that moment, rather than the Birgittes in the images (if she did appear at all, that is).

 

By which I mean that the Gaidal in the visions may be sometimes older and sometimes younger than Birgitte as she is now - alive, having been ripped out of T'A'R - rather than sometimes older and sometimes younger than the Birgitte in the visions. So really, this Viewing tells us that Birgitte is still tied to the Wheel, but does not say for certain if her relationship is changed in any way. It may; it may not.

[TristanWebb]

I don't think so FSM, there seems to be an approximatly equal number of older and younger and too many of them to be in a single lifetime. If it was just based on his as relative to the current time, there would be no reason for her to think it strange, she could be having adventures until she is 80 with a 60 year old. The age of a person in the vision would just serve to give an approximate date of it coming true and thus wouldn't really be anything to take special note of. Birgitte would have to be in the visions herself as older or younger, or something else about the visions told Min specifically about the age difference for it to be noteworthy.

[FarShainMael]

What I find odd is that Min was 'certain' the visions referred to more than one lifetime, so why should she find it strange that in different lifetimes Birgitte would be involved with a man who is sometimes older and sometimes younger than she is during those lifetimes? There is nothing at all strange about that. Has Min not realised that she's viewing lots of future lifetimes, not just the current lifetime of the woman standing in front of her?

[Terez]

It does because her viewings are about the future.

 

Just a random question. Is this actually confirmed in the series?

 

Yes, if not in so many words. Min saying things like when she sees it, it always happens, and her only doubt being in relation to things she has seen not being confirmed to have happened and in some cases (like Moiraine) it seems impossible.

 

I mean most people don't read RJ's comments online...

 

Most people would not even consider the question if they didn't trawl the forums. It usually comes out of things like Min saying Taim has 'blood in his past and blood in his future' or that Hanlon would commit 'more' rapes and murders, etc. But those can be understood in the context of single viewings that predict the future but include elements of the past. A more descriptive one is her viewing of Lan. She saw him as a baby and the giving of his oath, but the viewing represented the future, and the fulfillment of that oath. You might say it was fulfilled when he finally proclaimed himself king at the end of TOM, because that was what the oath represented. The battle against the Shadow is just one part of the king's duties. But anyway, non-internet-trawling fans usually don't consider questions like that, judging by the ones that show up on forum doorsteps regularly.

 

...so it seems to me that in order for Birgitte to serve as an example that being ripped out is not evil and does not permanently break the reincarnation process of a Hero, you would have to first have it established in the series that Mins visions are always of the future.

 

I assume that will be done in AMOL, when they get the idea to resurrect Rand this way. Min has the knowledge that makes it all possible; Nynaeve and Elayne and Birgitte probably all still think of it as a purely awful thing.

[Tiberius]

What I find odd is that Min was 'certain' the visions referred to more than one lifetime, so why should she find it strange that in different lifetimes Birgitte would be involved with a man who is sometimes older and sometimes younger than she is during those lifetimes? There is nothing at all strange about that. Has Min not realised that she's viewing lots of future lifetimes, not just the current lifetime of the woman standing in front of her?

Was Min in on the secret of her identity at that point? Or even now? Can't remember. We know that her "viewings" are always of the future, never of the past. One thing that I don't think was ever answered was: are the "aura's"(not viewings she knows the meaning of) she sees and the visions that go with them about the future, or just about that person's life thread. The "auras" maybe consist of the past as well. But it is most likely as you said, she is seeing the many many futures of Birgitte in a glance. I say it could land either way. Either as I postulated (death, born very soon afterward naturally, now younger than Cain), or it could mean that for this cycle she will be the elder. Either way, I suppose the important thing is that they are together in life.

[78WARLOCK]

I've thought about this. "To live,you must die ". Well how about Rand losing his ability to channel ? being Ta'veren ? It has been said throughout the books that women stilled feel dead. Lose a part of them. He might not have to actually physically die. Which might lead Logains glory being the next strongest male channeler.

[TristanWebb]

What I find odd is that Min was 'certain' the visions referred to more than one lifetime, so why should she find it strange that in different lifetimes Birgitte would be involved with a man who is sometimes older and sometimes younger than she is during those lifetimes? There is nothing at all strange about that. Has Min not realised that she's viewing lots of future lifetimes, not just the current lifetime of the woman standing in front of her?

Was Min in on the secret of her identity at that point? Or even now? Can't remember. We know that her "viewings" are always of the future, never of the past. One thing that I don't think was ever answered was: are the "aura's"(not viewings she knows the meaning of) she sees and the visions that go with them about the future, or just about that person's life thread. The "auras" maybe consist of the past as well. But it is most likely as you said, she is seeing the many many futures of Birgitte in a glance. I say it could land either way. Either as I postulated (death, born very soon afterward naturally, now younger than Cain), or it could mean that for this cycle she will be the elder. Either way, I suppose the important thing is that they are together in life.

That was when learned she was Birgitte Silverbow, from the amount of viewing she had that couldn't possibly be from one lifetime. She also recognized her from Falme, but probably wouldn't of connected it without the viewings. Odd that she didn't see them in Salidar though.

[mauifranko78]

Just came across this.. WH, Norry..

 

"From what I saw of him, my Lady, I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse."

 

===

 

Curious, will having an empty/dead body in the real world allow the Birgitte-like resurrection to be slightly different. Will Nynaeve simply do what she saw Moh' do, or will this allow her to return him to his body and maybe not immediately need the Warder bond.

 

Has anyone ever asked RJ or BS why she needed the bond to survive her artificial return from T'A'R??

[Ananta]

I tossed a coin on whether I vote for 1st or 2nd option.

 

Really, both are plausible in my opinion. It's been foreshadowed that Nynaeve will heal death... But then again, I would guess that it requires that she gives up her own life...

 

And TAR ripping has been done before, and I could see it happening again to Rand...

 

Blah, I dunno. xD

[thisguy]

Anybody think that Perrin might have something to do with either keeping Rand alive or resurrecting him?

 

If they're in TAR, he might be able to. Why? If you remember his last battle with Slayer at TV, Slayer cuts him up a bit and puts an arrow through his leg. Perrin envisions himself healthy. Slayer says he (Perrin) hasn't learned how to heal himself but has figured out how to pump fresh blood through his body.

 

Who knows what might be possible in TAR???

[Aulduron]

Perrin was able to re-animate Hopper, but not give him life.

[thisguy]

Perrin was able to re-animate Hopper, but not give him life.

Right. That and the whole shtick with Slayer telling him he doesn't know how to heal himself yet in TAR made me think he's going to have something to do with Rand in the last book.