To Live You Must Die

[TristanWebb]

She saw too many images to make out, some concerning an older man and some a man much younger but they were both the same man.

[Tiberius]

I don't even know if they've met

 

They met in Salidar and in Caemlyn "Winter's Heart: A Lily in Winter."

 

[WH: 12, A Lily in Winter, 296-297]

BIRGITTE: "Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another… she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."

 

All I could find. Doesn't reveal much.

[thisguy]

I don't even know if they've met

 

They met in Salidar and in Caemlyn "Winter's Heart: A Lily in Winter."

 

[WH: 12, A Lily in Winter, 296-297]

BIRGITTE: "Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another… she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."

 

All I could find. Doesn't reveal much.

AH! She's going to live then. I'm almost certain Birg had said thast Cain was always older. If Min sees him as younger, I think Birg lives. Thanks, man.

[TristanWebb]

Birgitte says that Cain is usually born before her. Nyn says he is always older at a later date.

[thisguy]

Birgitte says that Cain is usually born before her. Nyn says he is always older at a later date.

 

Thanks, BC. Seems to me, either way Cain's doing pretty well for himself, the ugly bastidge. ;)

[Terez]

Gaidal was always born first. So the viewing means she lives.

[FarShainMael]

Gaidal was always born first. So the viewing means she lives.

 

Not necessarily. Consider the Viewing itself:

 

 

WH: 12, A Lily in Winter, 296-297

BIRGITTE: "Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another… she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."

 

The bolded phrases may refer to the Birgitte who was standing in front of Min at that moment, rather than the Birgittes in the images (if she did appear at all, that is). If so, the Viewing proves that Birgitte dies and resumes her place in T'A'R.

[TristanWebb]

Gaidal was always born first. So the viewing means she lives.

Quote to prove it please? I went looking for something along those lines and the closest to always was from a Nyn PoV, the Birgitte one is usually.

[thisguy]

Gaidal was always born first. So the viewing means she lives.

Quote to prove it please? I went looking for something along those lines and the closest to always was from a Nyn PoV, the Birgitte one is usually.

I thought that Birg had said that to Nyn either in T'Rond or right after she was pulled out of T'Rond in book 5.

[Clouded]

Just a quick musing, but would Birgitte be considered both older and younger that Gaidal right now? As older, we could argue that she is an adult while Gaidal is currently an infant. But as younger, we could argue that Gaidal was spun first, and that Birgitte was thrown into the real world after him. Thus making her a few months younger than him. Thoughts?

[thisguy]

Just a quick musing, but would Birgitte be considered both older and younger that Gaidal right now? As older, we could argue that she is an adult while Gaidal is currently an infant. But as younger, we could argue that Gaidal was spun first, and that Birgitte was thrown into the real world after him. Thus making her a few months younger than him. Thoughts?

I, personally, think that's some really good thinking but I think in the end it just means that she'll live and be older than he is in the waking world.

[fuzz1717]

Just a quick musing, but would Birgitte be considered both older and younger that Gaidal right now? As older, we could argue that she is an adult while Gaidal is currently an infant. But as younger, we could argue that Gaidal was spun first, and that Birgitte was thrown into the real world after him. Thus making her a few months younger than him. Thoughts?

I, personally, think that's some really good thinking but I think in the end it just means that she'll live and be older than he is in the waking world.

 

I'm probably wrong here but isn't Gaidal usually spun out of TAR first? Thus making him usually older, except this time Birgitte is the older one.

[thisguy]

Just a quick musing, but would Birgitte be considered both older and younger that Gaidal right now? As older, we could argue that she is an adult while Gaidal is currently an infant. But as younger, we could argue that Gaidal was spun first, and that Birgitte was thrown into the real world after him. Thus making her a few months younger than him. Thoughts?

I, personally, think that's some really good thinking but I think in the end it just means that she'll live and be older than he is in the waking world.

 

I'm probably wrong here but isn't Gaidal usually spun out of TAR first? Thus making him usually older, except this time Birgitte is the older one.

No, you're right. In fact, he was born right before Moghedien through Birgitte out into the real world.

[Terez]

Not usually. ALWAYS.

 

"How long do you have?" Nynaeve asked. "Years yet, surely." Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had been tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Wheel of Time did not break. She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.

[FarShainMael]

Not usually. ALWAYS.

 

"How long do you have?" Nynaeve asked. "Years yet, surely." Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had been tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Wheel of Time did not break. She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.

 

But that's Nynaeve's opinion, so isn't 100% reliable - for example, she may not have readall the stories! We need Birgitte's own view on the matter.

[Vardar]

Not usually. ALWAYS.

 

"How long do you have?" Nynaeve asked. "Years yet, surely." Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had been tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Wheel of Time did not break. She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.

 

But that's Nynaeve's opinion, so isn't 100% reliable - for example, she may not have readall the stories! We need Birgitte's own view on the matter.

 

Bridgette says herself that she always knows her time is near when she can't find Gaidel. There's that evidence too

[Tiberius]

So why is impossible for Birgitte to die normally and be born normally in the near future so that she's the proper age relative to Cain?

[Terez]

Again, because of Min's viewing.

[DrZippy]

I thought Olver was Gaidal? He's described as an ugly kid. He may be "too old," but I'm not confident enough to say I understand the way time works in TAR.

[Terez]

RJ said he was too old.

[Terez]

Not usually. ALWAYS.

 

"How long do you have?" Nynaeve asked. "Years yet, surely." Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had been tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Wheel of Time did not break. She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.

 

But that's Nynaeve's opinion, so isn't 100% reliable - for example, she may not have readall the stories!

 

None of the stories mentioned Birgitte being reborn. They were all stories supposedly about the same incarnation (though it's possible some of the stories got mixed over time...it's not because the readers knew it was the same woman reborn). Nynaeve's information comes from Birgitte herself, the only possible source.

[thisguy]

I was so sure that Birg told her that either in TLRond or not long after she was pulled into the real world (or pushed, I guess).

[Maleshub]

Currently reading The Great Hunt, and I came across this quote during Ba'alzamon's encounter with Rand in the mirror world:

 

Ch. 15: Kinslayer

 

You will serve me or die! And this time the cycle will not begin anew with your death.

 

It seems that the age ends with Rand's death; and the cycle begins anew (Rand continues to be spun out later - in a metaphorical sense - continues to live) after he dies.

 

And there is the "Twice to live and twice to die" part that I understand as:

 

Live 1: Birth

Die 1: ????

Live 2: Resurrection

Die 2: Final death

 

So, it might be that Rand ends up truly dead by AMoL's conclusion.

 

What is the "history" of discussion on Ba'alzamon's quote above?

[lilltempest]

 

Ripping someone from TAR, of Pushing them out of a place where they were placed for safety just doesn't sound too good. Or even neutral. It sounds pretty evil to me.

 

That is not a good argument.

 

Meh, I haven't posted here in forever, since it usually isn't worth the effort, but I thought I'd just put this out there...

 

Nynaeve not only has a photographic memory, but she excels at making little changes to weaves. The way she has experimented with delving brought her to curing taint-induced madness, for example. With Moghedien's weave, it was meant to kill Birgitte...she was wrapped in darkness before she was thrown into the "real" world. If Nynaeve were to tweak it a bit, perhaps merge it with some sort of Healing weave, she could probably wrap Rand in light, rather than darkness, and bring him into the real world in a gentler fashion, one that would befit the savior of the world (instead of being thrown out of "heaven" and almost dying from the shock). It would be good symbolism (bringing light back to the world in the moment it is at its darkest, as well as the whole "wrapping him in light is good, wrapping someone in darkness is evil" thing), but it would also likely mean that there would be no need for him to have a choker put around his neck in the form of a bond. He would basically be resurrected in a way that would continue his life as he left it (and be far more comparable to Jesus descending from heaven, in light, than if he were forced out using the dark, evil-intented weave Moghedien used on Birgitte). Throw in the fact that he'd come back without his connection to Moridin, without the black spikes in his head (and the need for the light that covers them), and without a bunch of bonds people could use against him, and you have the savior the world needs. Especially once everything goes to hell in a handbasket with him gone.

[thisguy]

Ripping someone from TAR, of Pushing them out of a place where they were placed for safety just doesn't sound too good. Or even neutral. It sounds pretty evil to me.

 

That is not a good argument.

 

Meh, I haven't posted here in forever, since it usually isn't worth the effort, but I thought I'd just put this out there...

 

Nynaeve not only has a photographic memory, but she excels at making little changes to weaves. The way she has experimented with delving brought her to curing taint-induced madness, for example. With Moghedien's weave, it was meant to kill Birgitte...she was wrapped in darkness before she was thrown into the "real" world. If Nynaeve were to tweak it a bit, perhaps merge it with some sort of Healing weave, she could probably wrap Rand in light, rather than darkness, and bring him into the real world in a gentler fashion, one that would befit the savior of the world (instead of being thrown out of "heaven" and almost dying from the shock). It would be good symbolism (bringing light back to the world in the moment it is at its darkest, as well as the whole "wrapping him in light is good, wrapping someone in darkness is evil" thing), but it would also likely mean that there would be no need for him to have a choker put around his neck in the form of a bond. He would basically be resurrected in a way that would continue his life as he left it (and be far more comparable to Jesus descending from heaven, in light, than if he were forced out using the dark, evil-intented weave Moghedien used on Birgitte). Throw in the fact that he'd come back without his connection to Moridin, without the black spikes in his head (and the need for the light that covers them), and without a bunch of bonds people could use against him, and you have the savior the world needs. Especially once everything goes to hell in a handbasket with him gone.

I like it. If we stay somewhat with the Jesus story, Mary Magdelene found Jesus' crypt empty, cried, two angels saw and asked why she was crying, then pointed out Jesus standing behind her.

It also works with the story very well since she saw Moghedien push Birgitte out of T'Rond. Nice one, man.