To Live You Must Die

[Vardar]

And to be technical again, the prophesy of the dragon doesn't mention dying at all. It's all how you read it.

[Vardar]

Oh, but you are. And I'm done with you; not sure why I responded to you in the first place; should have learned from experience.

That's... a real shame.

I don't see how I could have offended you in any way, shape or form, besides having some (I thought very decent) arguments against what you brought up.

Some replies to what you said, compulsion, Aridhol.

All decent enough, I reckon.

 

Anyone else who likes that theory and who also thinks the weave is not evil...?

 

 

Edit:

(@Terez: sorry for upsetting you. I still don't know how I did that. Regardless, I respect the time and effort you put into your hobby and I feel bad for upsetting you. I hope it helps to know that. And I hope it helps to know that all I want is to debate the content of what RJ wrote. Nothing more...nothing less.)

 

Although I find some of your theories out there, with this one I think you're spot on. The weave seems evil, no doubt about it.

[Terez]

Why is that lame? He can't do it himself; he has to depend on Nynaeve to figure it out and come get him. It's possible that other methods are used in other Turnings and he won't remember, but either way it doesn't matter much. There's plenty of tension there; you just have to use your imagination a little. A lot of the tension will be in the circumstances, and in the way events play out in the world while Rand is dead. They will probably have to win the military side of the Last Battle without him, and might well have to figure out how to seal the Bore without him. There's something he will be needed for after his resurrection, but we can't be sure exactly what that is.

 

I've been following Rand's story since I was nine, that's almost twenty years now, through all his highs and lows and this is supposed to be his final moment where he triumphs over the DO after all that struggle. However, if he is ripped out of TAR he won't really be Rand anymore.

 

He hasn't been for a long time...not since he started getting Lews Therin's memories, and especially not since the end of TGS. I'm sure his past life memories will fade after he's ripped out just as Birgitte's have been fading.

 

He'll be the Dragon who is effectively a new character.

 

No, he'll still be Rand.

 

The amalgamation of all his lives and not just the current one (plus LTT since TOM).

 

It's not an amalgamation. It's the same person, born over and over again. It's always nature + nurture, but the nature is always the same. He won't be any different than he is now—perhaps even less different than he is now, when the memories finally fade.

 

And at that point one has to ask oneself just what exactly the point of all Rand's struggles was.

 

RJ said his main inspiration for the series was the question of what it would really be like to be tapped on the shoulder and told you had to save the world, and that you'd probably die in the process. That's your point. He had to make it through a number of obstacles to get to the end. He has to die to prevent the Dark One from winning; he has to be resurrected to prevent the Dark One from winning; he had to do his thing at Dragonmount to prevent the Dark One from winning. I could go on.

 

What need would there be for his character development if at the crucial moment he just gets replaced by a perfect alter ego?

 

Dragonmount, for one. The Dark One would have won there without character development. There are other similar events where his character development has been important. Presumably it's important for what happens between now and when he dies, too. Maybe even his death, when it comes...there's foreshadowing of him choosing to die, so it wouldn't surprise me despite the elements of betrayal that have been foreshadowed. And while Rand is necessary for what remains to happen after his resurrection, I don't think his Perfectness will be the only thing going on.

[Terez]

And to be technical again, the prophesy of the dragon doesn't mention dying at all. It's all how you read it.

 

There are four prophecies saying he will die. Only one of them is in the Prophecies of the Dragon (twice and twice), and that's the vaguest of all of them. Min is the clearest; when she says someone will die, they die. There are no alternate interpretations.

[Terez]

Strong words.

 

Strong theories call for strong words. This one is as strong as they come.

 

Eggy used the Need before anyone taught it to any of them.

 

And they all used it at the Eye of the World. Thing is, when it was explained to the reader as a skill in Tel'aran'rhiod, Nynaeve was the one learning it.

 

Just went back to Fires of Heaven to see if Ny even saw what Moggy did. It's inconclusive.

 

No, it isn't. She was watching; her POV described what was happening. Not the exact weave, but it's rare we get descriptions of weaves so that's not unexpected.

 

I have to agree that we don't know if ripping someone out of TAR is evil, it just appears to be evil, I'd find it hard to see it as a good thing.

 

Why?

 

1) If you say so. I'm not a fan of such assertive words. It implies you know something. But hey, I understand

 

I do know something. I know it because of the depth and intricacy of the foreshadowing; there's no way it's accidental.

 

2) No I mean Eggy used it in TAR in book 3. She closed her eyes and said she Needed to help Rand, and BAM, she shifted. So the skill in TAR was shown by Eggy before anyone else was taught it.

 

I know exactly what you meant. What was it in what I said that made you think I didn't?

 

4) Because it goes against the pattern

 

It does not, and I have demonstrated that it does not. Saying something over and over doesn't make it true.

 

The pattern has placed them there for a reason, and then gives them a way to be thrown out regularly and when need arises. Just because the pattern allows something to happen doesn't mean it's not evil.

 

As I have said several times, which you apparently did not read, it does not make it evil either. You have no evidence that it is evil.

 

The pattern allowed the way for the bore to be made to happen, it allowed Balefire to be discovered.

 

You are comparing apples and oranges. The Bore had serious consequences. Balefire has serious consequences. Ripping someone out of Tel'aran'rhiod only has consequences in certain circumstances, like Birgitte's circumstances, and those consequences are more inconvenient than dire. Those consequences don't exist at all in Rand's situation.

 

Ripping someone from TAR, of Pushing them out of a place where they were placed for safety just doesn't sound too good. Or even neutral. It sounds pretty evil to me.

 

That is not a good argument.

[b3arz3rg3r]

He hasn't been for a long time...not since he started getting Lews Therin's memories, and especially not since the end of TGS. I'm sure his past life memories will fade after he's ripped out just as Birgitte's have been fading.

 

Rand has been integrating pieces of LTT for 10 books. That's something completely different from just becoming the hero Dragon.

 

He'll be the Dragon who is effectively a new character.

 

No, he'll still be Rand.

 

No, he won't. Rand will just be one lives among many. Rand al'Thor will be just as important as every other life he has lived. The experiences he had a hundred lives before will be just as important as what he experienced as Rand al'Thor.

 

The amalgamation of all his lives and not just the current one (plus LTT since TOM).

 

It's not an amalgamation. It's the same person, born over and over again. It's always nature + nurture, but the nature is always the same. He won't be any different than he is now—perhaps even less different than he is now, when the memories finally fade.

 

His nature may be the same, but of course he would be different. He would have the experiences of who knows how many lives and not just two. All that would be part of him and that would obviously have an effect.

 

And at that point one has to ask oneself just what exactly the point of all Rand's struggles was.

 

RJ said his main inspiration for the series was the question of what it would really be like to be tapped on the shoulder and told you had to save the world, and that you'd probably die in the process. That's your point. He had to make it through a number of obstacles to get to the end. He has to die to prevent the Dark One from winning; he has to be resurrected to prevent the Dark One from winning; he had to do his thing at Dragonmount to prevent the Dark One from winning. I could go on.

 

Wrong, his character development would have been pointless. Rand could have died at any point since Nynaeve saw Birgitte get ripped out of TAR. To the hero Dragon it wouldn't have made any difference. But it would have skipped this whole descent into dark Rand. VoG would have been unnecessary.

That's why I say to rip the Dragon out of TAR is just too convenient. He could have died hundreds of times along the line and then get brought back just in time for the last battle.

 

 

What need would there be for his character development if at the crucial moment he just gets replaced by a perfect alter ego?

 

Dragonmount, for one. The Dark One would have won there without character development. There are other similar events where his character development has been important. Presumably it's important for what happens between now and when he dies, too. Maybe even his death, when it comes...there's foreshadowing of him choosing to die, so it wouldn't surprise me despite the elements of betrayal that have been foreshadowed. And while Rand is necessary for what remains to happen after his resurrection, I don't think his Perfectness will be the only thing going on.

 

I stick by what I've said. Instead of all those complex prophecies they should just have said to kill the DR as quickly as possible and then just bring him back from TAR.

[Terez]

He hasn't been for a long time...not since he started getting Lews Therin's memories, and especially not since the end of TGS. I'm sure his past life memories will fade after he's ripped out just as Birgitte's have been fading.

 

Rand has been integrating pieces of LTT for 10 books. That's something completely different from just becoming the hero Dragon.

 

Only in your imagination. If you'd take the time to read what's there instead of making stuff up you might enjoy the last book more.

[Mik]

Mik, I like your train of thought on evil weaves. Would you consider Balefire an evil weave?

A weave that messes with Time, burns back Threads from the Pattern and distorts the relation between actions and memories?

A weave that can have the Pattern itself screams and make reality waver?

A weave Shai'tan wants used, regardless of the fact that it limits some of His power?

A weave Moridin tells Rand the benefits from?

Is this a retorical question? :)

 

Is it an evil weave? I think it is, yes.

Same goes for Compulsion.

Same goes for Moghediens Weave.

Same goes for items like the a'dam.

Same goes for the Domination Band (recall Egwene's feeling in TAR? They caused her to feel a sense of darkness and pain)

 

Can you decide to use those evil weaves/ items with good intentions? Yes.

Can it even have good results? Yes. We've seen some in the books actually.

Much in the same way that Aridhol had good intentions and used evil to do good. In the end, the result is evil. I didn't 'asume' that; RJ wrote it.

It's a slipery slope and more often then not it's a one way track going downhill.

Some stuff just is inherently evil and people can choose to use them or not.

 

Would I believe RJ ever using them -in the slightest- to play a pivotal role in -or leading up to- the Last Battle? Never in a million years.

 

But you shouldn't be asking -my- opinion here to be honest.

There you have it anyway.

 

My two sad bracelets worth..

Cheers,

Mik

[b3arz3rg3r]

He hasn't been for a long time...not since he started getting Lews Therin's memories, and especially not since the end of TGS. I'm sure his past life memories will fade after he's ripped out just as Birgitte's have been fading.

 

Rand has been integrating pieces of LTT for 10 books. That's something completely different from just becoming the hero Dragon.

 

Only in your imagination. If you'd take the time to read what's there instead of making stuff up you might enjoy the last book more.

 

Well, then I guess all those times we saw Rand speaking from LTT's memories starting with TDR and LTT's voice were just a figment of my imagination. Just exactly what do we know of all of the Dragon's other lives? Right nothing. The Dragon ripped from TAR however knows everything.

[Guest The Dragons People]

I think that that Rand will die, and his resurrection has something to do with the bonds to his three wifes.

Because no one else have three warder bonds and no one else has three wifes in the wheel of time.

 

The key to his resurrection will come from these bonds, but how it will be done I have no clue. This is just a guess.

But somehow I believe that Morindin will die and Rand will be deadly wounded by Callandor during the last battle on Shayol Ghul,

and Alivia will help him die in such away so he can be resurrected by his wifes.

 

Because Rand died during the Last Battle(Great Battle), the forces of light loses this Battle in front of Shayol Ghul.

Rand dead and the battle lost, all hope is gone and everything is dark for three days until Rand is resurected.

After his resurrection he goes together with Nynaeve and makes a suprise attack and seals the bore forever.

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."

[Morden]

One word: Mat...

One sentence: Mat died in Rhuidion, yet came back to life because it was the creators will. it was how the pattern was meant to be played out. He was told he would be going against the pattern if he didnt go to Rhuidion to die there.

 

 

So surely the creator would do the same for the Dragon...

 

In a sense Rand cured death by resurrecting Mat, whether the Creator just made sure there was enough spark of life for him to do it or not, there is precedence other than Tel'aran'rhiod for coming back to life.

 

And bear in mind the Dark One seems to enjoy twisting the pattern when he can, but that the pattern is woven by the creator. and that Tav'eren do not follow the same laws as everyone else, the pattern bends around them to an extent. Rand is the creators golden child...

[Vardar]

And to be technical again, the prophesy of the dragon doesn't mention dying at all. It's all how you read it.

 

There are four prophecies saying he will die. Only one of them is in the Prophecies of the Dragon (twice and twice), and that's the vaguest of all of them. Min is the clearest; when she says someone will die, they die. There are no alternate interpretations.

 

A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood, lightning around you, some striking at you, some coming out of you. You and I will meet again.

 

This one? It doesn't say die, technically. What are the other 2?

 

I do know something. I know it because of the depth and intricacy of the foreshadowing; there's no way it's accidental.

 

At the end of the day, you cannot be sure. Perhaps we have different definitions of the word sure, but unless you've read the book that hasn't been printed, you can only say what you believe will happen.

 

I know exactly what you meant. What was it in what I said that made you think I didn't?

 

Your Eye of the World quote. What did the Eye of the World have to do with TAR?

 

It does not, and I have demonstrated that it does not. Saying something over and over doesn't make it true.

 

As I have said several times, which you apparently did not read, it does not make it evil either. You have no evidence that it is evil.

 

 

Actually you haven't. And I do believe you're the one repeating your argument over and over, denying that something that threatened the life of a person was evil. Of course, your argument is based on the fact that someone was able to save her, therefore it's not good? That makes no sense. The process of using this ability would kill a person, luckily, someone was nearby who made a study of something she shouldn't have (for a good reason which had nothing to do with the situaiton at hand) and managed to save her, so that means the ability isn't evil. That makese no sense. What have we seen in book, that kills someone without serious interference, that is good? Please point out somehting else.

 

Not to mention it goes against the precepts put into place to prevent something like this from happening. (Which makes me wonder who tells them the precepts if the creator doesn't interfer).

 

I see your point, I clearly understand your theory, it just seems to me that you are totally ignoring other things to make it work

[Vardar]

One word: Mat...

One sentence: Mat died in Rhuidion, yet came back to life because it was the creators will. it was how the pattern was meant to be played out. He was told he would be going against the pattern if he didnt go to Rhuidion to die there.

 

 

So surely the creator would do the same for the Dragon...

 

In a sense Rand cured death by resurrecting Mat, whether the Creator just made sure there was enough spark of life for him to do it or not, there is precedence other than Tel'aran'rhiod for coming back to life.

 

And bear in mind the Dark One seems to enjoy twisting the pattern when he can, but that the pattern is woven by the creator. and that Tav'eren do not follow the same laws as everyone else, the pattern bends around them to an extent. Rand is the creators golden child...

 

Mat wasn't dead. Well, I guess it depends on how you define dead. Can CPR bring people back to life or just save those who are dying. Mat stlll had a weak heartbeat.

[TristanWebb]

Mat didn't die from the hanging, he died and was rezzed by balefire in Andor.

[Lisa Campbell]

Just to throw a friendly spanner Terez...

 

what if Rand forgets how to re-seal the bore after he is torn out? Before he gets (back) to Shayol Ghul to finish the job I mean

[TristanWebb]

It has taken Birgitte months to forget up to the founding of the Tower and that was 4 lives ago. Since LTT has only had one life since the breaking it would take some time for him to forget the sealing.

[Terez]

Yeah, we don't have any particular reason to believe that will happen. I think it's probably important for him to have those memories. That's not the only reason why he has to die, but it's definitely one of them. I just don't believe that those memories will be the answer to everything.

[Lisa Campbell]

I think he already has those memories from VOG.

 

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

[pamela]

Your Eye of the World quote. What did the Eye of the World have to do with TAR?

 

They used the Need to find it.

[Mik]

I think he already has those memories from VOG.

 

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

I think you might be focussing on the wrong section there;

 

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

If you recall the first few pages in the books, Lews Therin Travels to a flat plane where he can sense that there were no people within a hundred leagues. Considering the quote above -the Dragon being no longer blinded and seeing the entire world with his mind's eye-, I think he's not experiencing his past lives, but he's remembering the lives of all Threads woven into the Pattern at that moment. The Dragon is no longer blinded and sees/ remembers all of life.

 

I also think that fits with how Lews Therin senses noone around for a hundred leagues.

[Lisa Campbell]

Sensing no life is different from remembering lives, love, peace, joy and hope, IMO. He also didn't sense life in the mirror world IIRC?

 

Bear in mind this is only my opinion and I mentioned it here after TGS was released but everyone many people seem to focus on LTT's memories because that has been portrayed throughout the series. Zen Rand is more than himself + LTT. Yes he says somewhere (in TOM I off the top of my head) that he was raised better than LTT but he also says in Apples (CH 1 - TOM) about not being able to look too closely without being blinded/burned blah blah (I'll dig out the quote if you want). He never had that with his knowledge of LTT's memories before VOG.

 

I guess if I had left out the first part of the quote some people might still ignore my inference, but generally, that is not a tactic I use. Any quote from the series can be argued from differing interpretations. I am simply offering mine, which differs from yours.

[pamela]

I also think it was just a flash, whether of his own lives or not necessarily his. But we have to RAFO, and it's so exciting.

 

But I was wondering... with LTT's memories, how can Rand not know what's the case with Callandor? Apparently this another flaw - or whatever it actually is - was something even its creators in the AoL weren't aware of. But how is it possible, that they made something of that much importance, not knowing about it? By accident?... Then, after the Sealing, there were some Foretellings, so the Aes Sedai put Callandor in the Stone - still not knowing, what for actually. If there's something I just don't remember, please remind me.

[Lisa Campbell]

Did LTT even know about Callandor? I got the impression it was after his time. Those AS had his banner too which indicates to me that it was after his death. That being said, how else would Cadsuane know about the flaw if there weren't ancient writings left by those who lived then?

[Terez]

I also think it was just a flash, whether of his own lives or not necessarily his. But we have to RAFO, and it's so exciting.

 

But I was wondering... with LTT's memories, how can Rand not know what's the case with Callandor? Apparently this another flaw - or whatever it actually is - was something even its creators in the AoL weren't aware of. But how is it possible, that they made something of that much importance, not knowing about it? By accident?... Then, after the Sealing, there were some Foretellings, so the Aes Sedai put Callandor in the Stone - still not knowing, what for actually. If there's something I just don't remember, please remind me.

Did LTT even know about Callandor? I got the impression it was after his time. Those AS had his banner too which indicates to me that it was after his death. That being said, how else would Cadsuane know about the flaw if there weren't ancient writings left by those who lived then?

 

It was made during the War of Power, so Lews Therin probably knew about its flaws. There's nothing to say that he should have known about its ultimate purpose; that seems to have come out of Foretellings and dreams from the Breaking, not all of which were necessarily recorded in the KC.

[Vardar]

Your Eye of the World quote. What did the Eye of the World have to do with TAR?

 

They used the Need to find it.

 

I know that part. But it had nothing to do with my quote and my statement.