A Tinker in the Green?

[Vardar]

I seem to know more about the Aiel than modern day people. But the AoL Aiel became channelers and left their nation to join the global population, so they would not have had to keep laws of Aiel...

 

Tuathan don't seem to be casting out girls, but rather they are escourted by their people to Tar Valon, seems an honorable alternative life-style, not like a child of a Democrat family voting Republican...

 

Pretty sure the idea is it amounts to the same thing. Especially when you're 14-17 and all Emo Teen angry. You say escorting, but that kid will think, I'll never see any of my family or friends again. Hell, even most of the AS can go back to family if they want, and at least feel welcome. Tinkers really won't.

 

One thought that the "all Emo Teen angry" will have is: "if I don't go to Tar Valon, I will probably die and hurt my people." To any normal child, going to TV would be the best possible alternative to (1) stay alive, and (2) "follow the Way of the Leaf."

 

Stop and think about all the crazy things you did as a Teen that threatened your life, or think about the stuff your friends did. Teens aren't rational, nor do they really care about living. Hell, I was calm and some of the stuff I did scares me now...

 

But I do agree with you. But you're thinking like an adult.

[Orderofolde]

It would be interesting to see the other Tinkers and Seafolk who have gone to the tower. It seems that 1-2 every few years were taken or went to Tar Valon because they sparked. The Tinkers did it to honor the Aes Sedai, probably from ancient custom, while the Seafolk did it to hide the fact that they have many channelers and didn't want the Aes Sedai in their business. Still, there have to be more sisters, or if they refused the Accepted test, or failed the test for sisterhood and were put out, what happened to them? Do you think they would be able to return to their people? It might have been motivation to fail or refuse the testing to be put out so they could return, or perhaps they ran? I wonder if there are some Tinker channelers among the Kin.

[Vardar]

It would be interesting to see the other Tinkers and Seafolk who have gone to the tower. It seems that 1-2 every few years were taken or went to Tar Valon because they sparked. The Tinkers did it to honor the Aes Sedai, probably from ancient custom, while the Seafolk did it to hide the fact that they have many channelers and didn't want the Aes Sedai in their business. Still, there have to be more sisters, or if they refused the Accepted test, or failed the test for sisterhood and were put out, what happened to them? Do you think they would be able to return to their people? It might have been motivation to fail or refuse the testing to be put out so they could return, or perhaps they ran? I wonder if there are some Tinker channelers among the Kin.

 

 

 

That leads to the question, are any sparkers too weak to become AS? Do we have any examples of this, I can't think of any. (Morgrase wasn't a sparker was she)

[Lisa Campbell]

I seem to remember Moiraine telling Egwene and Nynaeve in TEoTW that sparkers are generally above average in power capacity. I could be wrong though.

[jsbrads]

I seem to remember Moiraine telling Egwene and Nynaeve in TEoTW that sparkers are generally above average in power capacity. I could be wrong though.

 

Yes, but just to introduce some complexity...

The peak of nonsparker's bell curve is just to the left of the peak of the sparker's bell curve,

so average sparker is stronger than average nonsparker,

but Egwene's campaign of including older women, showed that some nonsparkers can be very strong (prior to her campaign, I thought non sparkers were all weaker)

[Vardar]

I seem to remember Moiraine telling Egwene and Nynaeve in TEoTW that sparkers are generally above average in power capacity. I could be wrong though.

 

Yes, but just to introduce some complexity...

The peak of nonsparker's bell curve is just to the left of the peak of the sparker's bell curve,

so average sparker is stronger than average nonsparker,

but Egwene's campaign of including older women, showed that some nonsparkers can be very strong (prior to her campaign, I thought non sparkers were all weaker)

 

I was pretty sure they weren't all weaker, but I must admit I'm surprised about Sharina and her strength. While I thought they weren't all weaker, I assumed you would have to be a sparker to reach a certain level.

[Maleshub]

I seem to know more about the Aiel than modern day people. But the AoL Aiel became channelers and left their nation to join the global population, so they would not have had to keep laws of Aiel...

 

Tuathan don't seem to be casting out girls, but rather they are escourted by their people to Tar Valon, seems an honorable alternative life-style, not like a child of a Democrat family voting Republican...

 

Pretty sure the idea is it amounts to the same thing. Especially when you're 14-17 and all Emo Teen angry. You say escorting, but that kid will think, I'll never see any of my family or friends again. Hell, even most of the AS can go back to family if they want, and at least feel welcome. Tinkers really won't.

 

One thought that the "all Emo Teen angry" will have is: "if I don't go to Tar Valon, I will probably die and hurt my people." To any normal child, going to TV would be the best possible alternative to (1) stay alive, and (2) "follow the Way of the Leaf."

 

Stop and think about all the crazy things you did as a Teen that threatened your life, or think about the stuff your friends did. Teens aren't rational, nor do they really care about living. Hell, I was calm and some of the stuff I did scares me now...

 

But I do agree with you. But you're thinking like an adult.

 

First off, today's teenagers cannot be compared to WoT teenagers. The latter seem to be more mature since responsibility is thrust upon them early on. Still, any teenager would be in quite a state of distress knowing that they have exhibited a trait that will lead to their death if they didn't go to train in Tar Valon. Regardless of how rational or irrational that teenager is, she would not choose to gamble with death and not go to Tar Valon. The decision isn't really a decision at all. It is more "survival" than "choice."

[jsbrads]

Vardamus: also I doubt that tinkers figured out a girl was a sparker by age 14, more likely older as there would be noone to test and so they would all be wilders as the people would only know once she begins channeling.

[Vardar]

Vardamus: also I doubt that tinkers figured out a girl was a sparker by age 14, more likely older as there would be noone to test and so they would all be wilders as the people would only know once she begins channeling.

 

I got the impression they knew what they were about, i.e. they knew the signs of channelling.

[jsbrads]

Vardamus: also I doubt that tinkers figured out a girl was a sparker by age 14, more likely older as there would be noone to test and so they would all be wilders as the people would only know once she begins channeling.

 

I got the impression they knew what they were about, i.e. they knew the signs of channelling.

 

I'm pretty sure the only signs of channeling, are channeling, which seems to become obvious in the later teens, egwene's age or older, as egwene hasn't really got it going yet, i don't think tinkers are somehow more advanced than the rest of the world visavis channeling...

[Vardar]

Vardamus: also I doubt that tinkers figured out a girl was a sparker by age 14, more likely older as there would be noone to test and so they would all be wilders as the people would only know once she begins channeling.

 

I got the impression they knew what they were about, i.e. they knew the signs of channelling.

 

I'm pretty sure the only signs of channeling, are channeling, which seems to become obvious in the later teens, egwene's age or older, as egwene hasn't really got it going yet, i don't think tinkers are somehow more advanced than the rest of the world visavis channeling...

 

The whole luck thing, and things happening that someone really wants without explaination? Those are signs.

[Lisa Campbell]

Also the side effects (illness) in reaction to channelling without control would become obvious too. The girl has to reach TV before it is too late and she dies.

[1Brotherbill]

I have a feeling that once a Novice Tinker was put to task she would easily forget the Way of the Leaf. Penance on a farm killing chickens all day long might do the trick. Or washing pots all day long might even do it.

 

You got to figure a young girl away from home, set up to not have friends, made fun of at every point she turned around. I have a feeling that the Tower had a specific plan on how to mold a Tinker into an AS. If she was strong enough to be a sister she would be forced quickly to forget the Way of the Leaf.

 

And if she was able to lie to the sisters about not following the Way of the Leaf. She would not come out of the Accepted test. Because the test would surely place her in danger where she would have to do violence against someone else. So she would either die in the Rings or she would choose not to come out. She would just live another life as a Tinker who can channel.

 

And the thing about Elayas saying that the Tinkers were Vegans. I thought that since Elayas just ate meat all the time he would look at any veggies as way too much. You see this with Perrin where he forces himself to eat a lot of veggies. So to say the Tinkers are vegans might be wrong it was just Elayas not wanting to eat anything but Rabbit.

[jsbrads]

killing chickens ain't against the way of the leaf, that's not violence.

but tinkers definitely seem to be vegetarians...

[Suttree]

killing chickens ain't against the way of the leaf, that's not violence.

but tinkers definitely seem to be vegetarians...

 

That most certainly would be against the way of the life. "the leaf does no harm".

[TristanWebb]

The leaf falls at it's appointed time.

 

You could eat the old diseased chickens :P

[jsbrads]

I didn't write the book, but AoL Aiel did hunt, I guess they saw in an african way, its time arrives when the arrow goes thru its heart. They only diallowed swords

 

The vegetable cuisine of the tinkers was mentioned a coupld of times...

[Orderofolde]

I would say that those with the spark will channel and might tend to be stronger, but there are many among those that can learn to channel that are immensely strong. I would think that it's shaded slightly towards sparkers to be more powerful, but in the tower's laziness to search out women and test them combined with culling the ability by gentling men I would have to say that with the exception of the wonder girls it might be that more powerful channelers can be found among those able to learn rather than channel though it was not always so. It might have been even once, and of course we can't know the strength of the thousands that still haven't been found.

[jsbrads]

Thanks Orderfolde, we have to remember, AS would have to find the girls during that period (12?-19?) if they found a woman over a certain age, they would ignore her because she was a woman. I'm guessing the window for nonsparkers is even smaller (16?-19)*

We can learn from the Seachan, that a nonsparkers ability shows later, since the AS won't take someone over a certain age the window is smaller.