How the hell do they feed the armies in randland?

[Sasha Grayes]

I thought Trollocs were made like LotR's Uruk-Hai

[Maleshub]

I thought Trollocs were made like LotR's Uruk-Hai

 

They were made by crossbreeding humans with many things; and they can reproduce; Fades are Trolloc throwbacks to the human stock of the breeding tree. A Fade's father and mother are Trollocs!

[Cybertrolloc]

We don't know too much for sure on trollocs except that they really like eating people and die going through a Traveling gateway. There's plenty of throw-away that could probably be true, but we just haven't seen much of them since they stopped being any kind of threat to the mains.

 

Pick the least contradictory author comments (there's a question of the week or two, that's near canon, iirc he didn't go into specifics much, just that it's pretty icky).

[Luckers]

The real question is, what the bloody hell the Trollocs are eating in the Blight allowing millions of them to breed and flourish!?!?!?!

 

At twice the size of a man, they have to eat twice as much. They have to have Trolloc farmers or herders because there aren't enough humans in the borderlands to eat for generations.

 

Think about that.

 

I've made this point before, though people often seem resistant too it I'll throw it out there again--the Blight, for all that its a nasty ecosystem filled with poisonous evil, its also a thriving one, in its own way. In fact, from all we've seen, its damn near tropical.

 

And the Shadowspawn are children of the same poisonous evil, so there is no reason that it should be inimical to them in the way it is to humanity. Furthermore as per Perrin and the wolves--there's good hunting along the Blight. And finally, as per RJ, Trollocs are omnivours. They eat everything.

 

 

All that being said, the logistics of feeding the armies in WoT have always been a little problematic and blurry.

[Apples First]

Didn't Elayne mention feeding armies whilst she and a few other characters were discussing the problem of the Borderlander armies in one of the latter books?

[Orderofolde]

If you decide to go to College, take a few Sociology and Psychology classes, take some history classes. Things will shift into perspective in ways you wouldn't believe, and what was once impossible becomes more than possible. If people had attitudes like yours, the world would still be flat, and tales of the Forsaken would keep you in bed at night

 

What does attitude have to do with this. Fine, the food may last longer, but at the end of the day if you don't have enough food your army will starve to death.

 

The pattern is really starting to annoy me. Free food popping up everywhere, 90% of the characters are happily in love while still fulfilling political nessesity, and many other things. It just seems like an easy way out.

Wow, sorry about that last sentence people. I meant it to be encouraging. After rereading it again I saw it could be taken negatively and wasn't meant to be. Just encouragement for some exciting subjects and a joke.

[Orderofolde]

they brought he food with them initially, once they stopped moving the would have had to rely a lot on supply trains from Tear. Since Cairhein was low on food itself. But that city will have some food production still. The Aiel probably planted all the crops around their camps once they stopped moving, there is more than just "soldiers" among them, only the shaido had brought the entire clan but the others probably brought the majority of the men, even many "farmers", they may have even brought herds along behind them (slowly).

Nice catch! RJ described Rhudean after the Aiel began to move in with the empty planters in the avenues and rooftop gardens being utilized for gardens rather than for the trees and flowers likely they had been built for. Also you see that lots of space in Cold Rocks Hold is used in the same way. True, the sheer numbers of the Aiel surviving off the waste which is pretty much serious desert is a stretch, but RJ placed in just enough hints at how they survive. The robed Gaishan are responsible for tending these things and perform other labors under the watchful eyes of children. One thing I have noticed is that RJ tended to take what we view as unlikely and seldom possible and make us realize that such things actually are possible under the right conditions. It is probably one of the things we like with his story that draws us in, trying to match traits to old earth cultures and people. The closest I've seen in regards to the Aiel in our history are the Zulus. The bucklers and the short spears are telling, though bows were not really a mainstay.

 

Would they have needed supply trains? Absolutely, but with gateways and traveling later on, problem solved, or made not so much a problem any longer. Very nice catch, and yes RJ leaves much to the imagination, though he does give some glimpses, almost like small puzzles for us to solve.

[Orderofolde]

The real question is, what the bloody hell the Trollocs are eating in the Blight allowing millions of them to breed and flourish!?!?!?!

 

At twice the size of a man, they have to eat twice as much. They have to have Trolloc farmers or herders because there aren't enough humans in the borderlands to eat for generations.

 

Think about that.

This is the meat of the issue I think, and I agree. We've seen Moridin's black palace out in the Blight and men working to plant crops from one of the female forsaken's POV's, but we all know what Trollocs eat. Humans, or themselves. The sheer numbers of Trollocs tossed around has been talked about in several threads I've seen. The attack on the manner had around 100,000, close to the same with the attack on the Seanchan forces after they leave Perrin. Then we have the sea of them attacking Kandori Towers, and again at Maradon. Then we have Perrin's helping the Whitecloaks! Some crazy numbers, but it seems that the portal stones are being used to transport them, so if not just stone to stone, it might be from mirror worlds to Randland. That's all I can think of. Not many of the forces ever survived, so supply lines weren't a big deal...

[Vardar]

The real question is, what the bloody hell the Trollocs are eating in the Blight allowing millions of them to breed and flourish!?!?!?!

 

At twice the size of a man, they have to eat twice as much. They have to have Trolloc farmers or herders because there aren't enough humans in the borderlands to eat for generations.

 

Think about that.

 

I've made this point before, though people often seem resistant too it I'll throw it out there again--the Blight, for all that its a nasty ecosystem filled with poisonous evil, its also a thriving one, in its own way. In fact, from all we've seen, its damn near tropical.

 

And the Shadowspawn are children of the same poisonous evil, so there is no reason that it should be inimical to them in the way it is to humanity. Furthermore as per Perrin and the wolves--there's good hunting along the Blight. And finally, as per RJ, Trollocs are omnivours. They eat everything.

 

 

All that being said, the logistics of feeding the armies in WoT have always been a little problematic and blurry.

 

I always thought Perrin and the Wolves meant trollocs when they said good hunting, as in we're gonna kill us some trollocs boys!! HELLS YEA!

 

I give it to you the tropical enviorment, it was from our description. That's still a lot of mouths to feed, Although looking at a map online, giving the area covered, I suppose it's possible if they migrated alot.

[Luckers]

Trollocs grow faster than human babies too, and the females are kept and farmed. Its possible the population was kept smaller and only in the last couple of generations increased into Tarmon Gai'dony proportions.

 

And yes, 'Tarmon Gai'dony' is the technical term.

[Vardar]

Trollocs grow faster than human babies too, and the females are kept and farmed. Its possible the population was kept smaller and only in the last couple of generations increased into Tarmon Gai'dony proportions.

 

And yes, 'Tarmon Gai'dony' is the technical term.

Ahh. Where did we get they they grow faster (Or is it just assumed from the animal stock since all animals mature faster than humans?) They'd need even more food if they grow faster, so I guess migratory creatures is the answer here. The clans must move around from spot to spot in the "jungle" (That what it resembles). So yea I guess that makes a sort of sense, enough that I no longer have to suspend disbelief for that portion.

[Luckers]

RJ stated it. Aginor built it into them--from memory I think he said they have about half the maturation period of a human.

[Vardar]

RJ stated it. Aginor built it into them--from memory I think he said they have about half the maturation period of a human.

 

Cool. I would have accepted even less since they are animal stock. It actually makes perfect sense.

[1Brotherbill]

People in Randland don't eat as much as we do. You never find people sitting down and eating a lot of food. So maybe the food is better in Randland. Perrin and Egwene made it for the better part of two weeks without any thing besides a bit of cheese and crackers. Matt and Rand would go days without food while they walked to Camelyn. So food isn't quit the same in Randland.

[Luckers]

People in Randland don't eat as much as we do. You never find people sitting down and eating a lot of food. So maybe the food is better in Randland. Perrin and Egwene made it for the better part of two weeks without any thing besides a bit of cheese and crackers. Matt and Rand would go days without food while they walked to Camelyn. So food isn't quit the same in Randland.

 

That sort of depredation happens regularily in the real world.

[SuperFade]

People in Randland don't eat as much as we do. You never find people sitting down and eating a lot of food. So maybe the food is better in Randland. Perrin and Egwene made it for the better part of two weeks without any thing besides a bit of cheese and crackers. Matt and Rand would go days without food while they walked to Camelyn. So food isn't quit the same in Randland.

 

In Randland air molecules are actually really tiny cakes.

[Sephie913]

People in Randland don't eat as much as we do. You never find people sitting down and eating a lot of food. So maybe the food is better in Randland. Perrin and Egwene made it for the better part of two weeks without any thing besides a bit of cheese and crackers. Matt and Rand would go days without food while they walked to Camelyn. So food isn't quit the same in Randland.

 

In Randland air molecules are actually really tiny cakes.

 

That's the ONLY answer that makes sense. :D

[Luckers]

People in Randland don't eat as much as we do. You never find people sitting down and eating a lot of food. So maybe the food is better in Randland. Perrin and Egwene made it for the better part of two weeks without any thing besides a bit of cheese and crackers. Matt and Rand would go days without food while they walked to Camelyn. So food isn't quit the same in Randland.

 

In Randland air molecules are actually really tiny cakes.

 

That's the ONLY answer that makes sense. :D

 

It does open up a whole new confectionary based school of physics. I'm going to call this moment the Cupcake Catastrophy.

[MountaineerWV]

While some of the mechanics in feeding Randland's armies may be weak, I've never really questioned where they get their rations. I've read two lines of thought on feeding armies. One is that the need much more food than a civilian because they are marching and fighting. The other is that they need way less food (to maintain) than a civilian because all they do is march and wait for the fight (and perhaps load up on calories prior to a fight), while civilians need MUCH more food because they are constantly working, farming, tilling, splitting wood, etc. I remember reading about logistics from the ancient Greeks - when soldiers where on the march, their daily ration was a piece of unleavened bread and 12 olives.

 

On a side note, bodies perform just fine on caloric deficits, wiry thin soldiers far outperform heavy muscular soldiers in our elite units, and 'fit to fight'.

 

There are two types of Trolloc feeds. Inside the Blight, breeding, maturing, maintaining, and then outside the Blight fighting. I don't really question how millions of Trollocs can be fed in the Blight. There is no satisfactory answer. They are not farmers, the Blight can't support a large sustainable population of non-poisonous plants and animals to support millions of Trollocs, there are not enough Borderlands to capture and feed millions of Trollocs without eating every Borderlander within a few years. However they do it, they do it.

 

Once the Trollocs are out of the Blight, it is easy to figure out how they eat. 1. They feed off the land (animals, people, plants). 2. cannibalism (weakest first and the dead from battle). 3. They Shadow doesn't care if they starve to death.

[Vardar]

On a side note, bodies perform just fine on caloric deficits, wiry thin soldiers far outperform heavy muscular soldiers in our elite units, and 'fit to fight'.

 

Just wanted to state, this is more due to modern mechanics than anything else. A thin wiry soldier vs a heavy muscular soldier in a sword fight won't always turn out like a gun fight. A big guy has more surface area to hit with bullets.

[MountaineerWV]

On a side note, bodies perform just fine on caloric deficits, wiry thin soldiers far outperform heavy muscular soldiers in our elite units, and 'fit to fight'.

 

Just wanted to state, this is more due to modern mechanics than anything else. A thin wiry soldier vs a heavy muscular soldier in a sword fight won't always turn out like a gun fight. A big guy has more surface area to hit with bullets.

 

I disagree.

 

From a real world perspective, there is very little 1v1 gun fighting in combat. It's all about tactics and combat multipliers. Endurance, stamina, mobility are important....not who can squat 800 lbs.

 

From a WoT perspective, there are very few swordsmen. The characters we see in WoT are dang near all swordsmen...but that's because they are cool. The vast majority of troops would be foot soldiers with pikes, spears, and maces. (who in the heck wants to read about a character that forms up in a line and hopes that his pike keep the enemies away) Also, raw strength does not determine an outcome. Technique and conditioning are more important.

[TristanWebb]

Also cavalry that the lords love so much would favour lighter men.

[Vardar]

Also cavalry that the lords love so much would favour lighter men.

 

Yet we see quite a few Cavalry men as fat. Especially some Lords.

 

On a side note, bodies perform just fine on caloric deficits, wiry thin soldiers far outperform heavy muscular soldiers in our elite units, and 'fit to fight'.

 

Just wanted to state, this is more due to modern mechanics than anything else. A thin wiry soldier vs a heavy muscular soldier in a sword fight won't always turn out like a gun fight. A big guy has more surface area to hit with bullets.

 

I disagree.

 

From a real world perspective, there is very little 1v1 gun fighting in combat. It's all about tactics and combat multipliers. Endurance, stamina, mobility are important....not who can squat 800 lbs.

 

From a WoT perspective, there are very few swordsmen. The characters we see in WoT are dang near all swordsmen...but that's because they are cool. The vast majority of troops would be foot soldiers with pikes, spears, and maces. (who in the heck wants to read about a character that forms up in a line and hopes that his pike keep the enemies away) Also, raw strength does not determine an outcome. Technique and conditioning are more important.

 

Even Pikemen who are bigger and stronger will usually win. Remember, not all larger people are slower or less agile, that's a myth.And even the Two River Bowmen all had swords or pikes with them, Perrin mentioned it numerous times, so assuming they knew how to hold and swing those things, that would make them swordsmen. Good ones? EH, who knows, but they're still swordsmen.

 

And has it ever been proven that thin wiry soldiers outperform larger soldiers in today's military. How was it proven, what did they measure?

[Orderofolde]

Also cavalry that the lords love so much would favour lighter men.

 

Yet we see quite a few Cavalry men as fat. Especially some Lords.

 

On a side note, bodies perform just fine on caloric deficits, wiry thin soldiers far outperform heavy muscular soldiers in our elite units, and 'fit to fight'.

 

Just wanted to state, this is more due to modern mechanics than anything else. A thin wiry soldier vs a heavy muscular soldier in a sword fight won't always turn out like a gun fight. A big guy has more surface area to hit with bullets.

 

I disagree.

 

From a real world perspective, there is very little 1v1 gun fighting in combat. It's all about tactics and combat multipliers. Endurance, stamina, mobility are important....not who can squat 800 lbs.

 

From a WoT perspective, there are very few swordsmen. The characters we see in WoT are dang near all swordsmen...but that's because they are cool. The vast majority of troops would be foot soldiers with pikes, spears, and maces. (who in the heck wants to read about a character that forms up in a line and hopes that his pike keep the enemies away) Also, raw strength does not determine an outcome. Technique and conditioning are more important.

 

Even Pikemen who are bigger and stronger will usually win. Remember, not all larger people are slower or less agile, that's a myth.And even the Two River Bowmen all had swords or pikes with them, Perrin mentioned it numerous times, so assuming they knew how to hold and swing those things, that would make them swordsmen. Good ones? EH, who knows, but they're still swordsmen.

 

And has it ever been proven that thin wiry soldiers outperform larger soldiers in today's military. How was it proven, what did they measure?

Probably ROK troops vs. US service men. Those guys are absolutely crazy. My father shadowed one of their training sessions and told me how Republic of Korea special forces guys swung across deep canyons holding onto ropes with no regard to safety and dozens of other training methods. Swing a rope across to a guy with a thick piece of wood tied to it, the guy grabs the wood soon as it hits him and away he goes, swinging it back for the next guy in line, insane marches, hand to hand fighting...not all Asians know martial arts, but those that do can do some serious damage without weapons. I guess that their philosophy is that if you want your sorry bum to live you'll hold onto that wood and not slip off. I suppose that with a lot of guys just north of you who might come any time the cease fire breaks down who hare digging elaborate tunnels filling them with tanks and military equipment, you want the hardest fighters especially if outnumbered.

[Vardar]

Probably ROK troops vs. US service men. Those guys are absolutely crazy. My father shadowed one of their training sessions and told me how Republic of Korea special forces guys swung across deep canyons holding onto ropes with no regard to safety and dozens of other training methods. Swing a rope across to a guy with a thick piece of wood tied to it, the guy grabs the wood soon as it hits him and away he goes, swinging it back for the next guy in line, insane marches, hand to hand fighting...not all Asians know martial arts, but those that do can do some serious damage without weapons. I guess that their philosophy is that if you want your sorry bum to live you'll hold onto that wood and not slip off. I suppose that with a lot of guys just north of you who might come any time the cease fire breaks down who hare digging elaborate tunnels filling them with tanks and military equipment, you want the hardest fighters especially if outnumbered.

 

Interesting quote. although that's more a cultural difference, it would skew the results. Still cool as heck.