My Take on the RJ/BS Split

[Ashaman Kovan]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

 

You must have very limited and sheltered reference for material then.

 

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

+1

 

- 100

 

Edit:

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

So while I agree with your conclusion, I don't think that says much, since people have an amazing ability to make data fit their preconceptions anyway.

 

It says that all the people petulantly whining about how different and badly written Mat was are doing just that. Petulantly whining.

No. Your statement stands for itself. It is truly worthy of ridicule.

 

Do you have anything to say that actually matters? Or is this just in hopes terez will upvote you again?

[Cybertrolloc]

What I think you're saying has merit in a narrow sense or with a lot of qualifications. But we're not there with you in your head, you'll need to unpack that just a little more :)

 

Also hint: there's a few of us that don't particularly care for many aspects of WoT but love RJ's writing style. So yah, unless very painstakingly ghost-written, would be noticeable quickly for the most ungenerous interpretation of what you're saying.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Those seem kind of mutually exclusive.

[Terez]

Just because you can't tell much difference doesn't mean that the differences aren't extremely obvious to others. While Brandon did better than I expected, I don't see how I could have possibly read TGS without knowing by the end of chapter 1 (at the latest) that RJ wasn't writing it. Lots of people are wrong when they guess who wrote what. Some of us are not.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Forgive me if I don't think there's some small handful of you that are so special.

[XoMeltdownoX]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

 

You must have very limited and sheltered reference for material then.

 

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

+1

 

- 100

 

Edit:

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

So while I agree with your conclusion, I don't think that says much, since people have an amazing ability to make data fit their preconceptions anyway.

 

It says that all the people petulantly whining about how different and badly written Mat was are doing just that. Petulantly whining.

No. Your statement stands for itself. It is truly worthy of ridicule.

 

Do you have anything to say that actually matters? Or is this just in hopes terez will upvote you again?

LOL. More childish rants. Lets recap. You made a foolish comment that was baseless. I commented how ridiculous it was. You respond with a personal attack on the limits of my reference material. I pointed out that your foolish statement stands for itself. Now you accuse me of cowardice for not elaborating? There is not much to say to your points, because like a politician you waffle about, but have actually said nothing.

 

I am not trying to start a flame war, just stating the facts. Your original comment was ridiculous; ie, a statement worthy of ridicule.

[Terez]

Forgive me if I don't think there's some small handful of you that are so special.

 

Forgive me if I don't assume that everyone else has a reading comprehension level comparable to mine.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I actually made myself quite plain. You've stated no facts, just your opinions on my statements. Which were the actual facts.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I actually made myself quite plain. You've stated no facts, just your opinions on my statements. Which were the actual facts.

Round and round we go. When we all just reiterate what has already been said (I am guilty too), the topic is basically over.

 

Your original point was your opinion. It is a fact not opinion, that the comment was ridiculous. I am not saying you are somehow unworthy in any way. I did not mean it to sound like a personal attack. I have made foolish comments like that before and will again I am sure. Hell, the quantity of my posts is directly proportional to the amount of beer consumed, while the quality is more than likely inversely proportional. See; now I am waffling.

 

I digress. As I said I think this side topic has run its course. I will leave you to it.

[Vardar]

Yeah, the Mat - Tuon courtship is my favorite rereading material. One of my favorite scenes in right in my sig!

 

As to Mat's foul mouth and the letter to Elayne, we need to go back to his meeting with Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve in Salidar. That was hilarious. He was very funny, very rude, and very much in shock; but he wasn't dumb or at a loss for words. What I am trying to convey is that Mat could have written a very funny and very rude letter without looking very dumb, which how he came across in the letter.

 

The rudeness to Joline episode occurs early on in TGS before Hinderstap (sp.) where she asks him for horses for herself, Edesina, Teslyn, and the former sul'dam to continue their journey alone. Talmanes comments on it and says that Mat is on edge and worried about Tuon's safety.

 

But this is just a personal thing. First time I read the letter, I was laughing as hard as I've laughed at any Mat humor. But when I went back and read it again, especially in my rereads of Mat-only chapters, the letter felt like a road bump in the reading.

Rude? Really? I know the scene, I thought she was pretty rude. What she asked for was unreasonable, and she didn't even ask politely. I took it more of Mat refusing to be bossed around.

 

As for the letter, l guess I can see how it made him look stupid, but it did do what it was supposed too. Shock value. Recall that Nor said he ignored the other letters, I assume they were more politely worded and thus he did that for a reason. At least that's how it appeared in my mind.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Forgive me if I don't think there's some small handful of you that are so special.

 

Forgive me if I don't assume that everyone else has a reading comprehension level comparable to mine.

 

Unforgivable.

[Maleshub]

Rude? Really? I know the scene, I thought she was pretty rude. What she asked for was unreasonable, and she didn't even ask politely. I took it more of Mat refusing to be bossed around.

 

As for the letter, l guess I can see how it made him look stupid, but it did do what it was supposed too. Shock value. Recall that Nor said he ignored the other letters, I assume they were more politely worded and thus he did that for a reason. At least that's how it appeared in my mind.

 

Mat's comments on how dumb the fool who they chose for Amyrlin is; and how "not very bright" she is; and how he talked to Nynaeve about rescuing her again; were a bit rude. And how he talked to Elayne about "putting her on a horse" to deliver to Rand was awesomely rude.

 

One of my favorite Mat lines to Elayne and Nynaeve after his night with Birgitte: "If you want a ta'veren on a leash, go to Rand of Perrin." Priceless Mat!

[safwd]

Mat was always rude (ish) when talking about Aes Sedai and especially those that he has drug there behinds out of situations they would have had a hard time getting out of themselves. Especially those same women who tend to not only be stingy with the thanks but act like it was their idea the whole time.

 

Now that he has the medallion he is able to be rude to Aes Sedai. What are they going to do to him? And Joline was a very typical nose in the air better than everyone else Aes Sedai.

He was never overly rude to Teslyn, mainly because Teslyn was not rude to him.

Let us not forget that RJ wrote the little part about Mat paddling Joline's behind in the wagon. He was surly to Aes Sedai prior to Brandon taking over.

[Vardar]

Rude? Really? I know the scene, I thought she was pretty rude. What she asked for was unreasonable, and she didn't even ask politely. I took it more of Mat refusing to be bossed around.

 

As for the letter, l guess I can see how it made him look stupid, but it did do what it was supposed too. Shock value. Recall that Nor said he ignored the other letters, I assume they were more politely worded and thus he did that for a reason. At least that's how it appeared in my mind.

 

Mat's comments on how dumb the fool who they chose for Amyrlin is; and how "not very bright" she is; and how he talked to Nynaeve about rescuing her again; were a bit rude. And how he talked to Elayne about "putting her on a horse" to deliver to Rand was awesomely rude.

 

One of my favorite Mat lines to Elayne and Nynaeve after his night with Birgitte: "If you want a ta'veren on a leash, go to Rand of Perrin." Priceless Mat!

 

Pretty much what the guy below you said. When Mat started chatting about the Amyrlin, he didn't know it was Eggy at first right? He was talking to 3 people he thought were friends, and being open. As for the rescuing them again, considering how they treated him when it happened and afterwards, I think they deserved that. Same with speaking to Elayne, I don't dislike her, but her treatment of Mat wasn't cool. Like the guy beneath you said, most people he's rude too deserve it, except Tuon, she deserved it but never got it.

[Maleshub]

most people he's rude too deserve it, except Tuon, she deserved it but never got it.

 

Love does that to a man! But he got back at her tenfold. He'll father the next Empress; and he'll lead this one's armies! That couple is as formidable as the Moiraine-Thom duo! "I pity the fools" that might try to go against Mat-Tuon!

[master]

Love does that to a man! But he got back at her tenfold. He'll father the next Empress; and he'll lead this one's armies! That couple is as formidable as the Moiraine-Thom duo! "I pity the fools" that might try to go against Mat-Tuon!

 

 

the only problem is that tuon wants to enslave the tower while mats sister is in it.

[Luckers]

Regarding Kovan's assertion that had people not known Brandon was writing aMoL they wouldn't have picked the difference--I find it untenable. There are those with the skill to exactly mimic anothers writing style (ghostwriters), but Brandon has no such skills. By no later than the end of Chapter One of The Gathering Storm would a person be able to clearly and cleanly judge that the style had changed.

 

Perhaps the less stylistically minded would not have picked up on it being a different writer had it been claimed RJ had written it, but certainly it would have been said that his illness had compromised his writing.

[Sasha Grayes]

RJ's strength is the world building. If the Perrin POV and the Mat POV was left to other people the series as a whole would have been better. They should have left RJ as the creator and left other people to write different POVs. One-shot books for different characters would be awesome. Demandred POV by GRRM.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Regarding Kovan's assertion that had people not known Brandon was writing aMoL they wouldn't have picked the difference--I find it untenable. There are those with the skill to exactly mimic anothers writing style (ghostwriters), but Brandon has no such skills. By no later than the end of Chapter One of The Gathering Storm would a person be able to clearly and cleanly judge that the style had changed.

 

Perhaps the less stylistically minded would not have picked up on it being a different writer had it been claimed RJ had written it, but certainly it would have been said that his illness had compromised his writing.

 

Okay, allow me to clarify a bit. When I said that had no one known it was a different writer no one would have been able to tell the difference, that was a too strong. I think I said it more out of exasperation than anything else. Yes, BS and RJs' writing styles are vastly different, they both have different strengths and weaknesses, I fully realize that. I've been reading WoT since I was 12 years old, that's 14 years. A shorter time than some but a longer time than many, so when I found out RJ had died I was more than a little heartbroken and honestly thought the series would never get finished. So I guess it just really irks me to see these threads constantly popping up for various people to come in here and bash on BS and say "He wrote this person wrong" or "This felt wrong" or what have you when there was a good chance it would never have been finished without him. When someone is doing their best and was handpicked by the person closest to RJ and is taking time away from their own career (With its' own merits) to bring us the rest of a beloved story that some people have had in their lives for most of said lives, it just strikes me as extremely petty and petulant and whiny to spend time criticizing an author for not being able to do the same exact thing another author had been doing and dedicated their life to doing for 17 years. Which is well within their rights to do. But then, I suppose, so is it within mine to express my distaste for it.

[Suttree]

When someone is doing their best and was handpicked by the person closest to RJ and is taking time away from their own career (With its' own merits) to bring us the rest of a beloved story

 

I used to think along similar lines, and attributed the shortcoming in the books to the process being rushed(not enough time spent writing and a rushed editing process). Unfortunately some of those in the know have made it pretty clear that Brandon doesn't seem to be trying his best and that is a fairly significant issue.

 

that some people have had in their lives for most of said lives, it just strikes me as extremely petty and petulant and whiny to spend time criticizing an author for not being able to do the same exact thing another author had been doing and dedicated their life to doing for 17 years. Which is well within their rights to do. But then, I suppose, so is it within mine to express my distaste for it.

 

But this is what doesn't make sense to any of us. A careful critique of an author's work and calling out some of the more glaring issues is not bashing in the slightest. In fact Lucker's was requested to send a paper to Brandon highlighting many of the problems in both books from a fan perspective. It is an impressive piece of work and to me conveys the highest sign of respect in attempting to ensure the final piece is as good as it can possibly be.

 

You have been around long enough Kovan to remember that most people were very excited with the initial release of TGS. It was only once the thrill of knowing the story was going to be finished wore off that some started to be critical on rereads. Quite simply both books do not hold up that well under careful scrutiny. People have the right to disagree of course but it has been rather telling watching the gradual shift in perception once the initial plot gratification wore off. Now some of the more short term members of DM were not around back then to see the early stages of praise. They misconstrue critique as bashing instead of understanding this is a stance that has very much evolved over time as people took the time to pick apart the books in subsequent rereads.

 

For those who say the books "need to wrap up" that is entirely missing the point. There are far too many times in TGS and ToM where Brandon raced from A to B with blunt prose and zero subtlety. Wrapping up is all good, but there is a way to do so beyond lowest common denominator plot work. So while posters like Kael can shrilly protest our posts, hint at secret plots to bring Brandon down within the fandom and hilariously act as if our critique is somehow an indictment on them, per usual he is off base entirely. Instead of focusing on fellow posters, people that disagree would be far better served showing examples of how Brandon has in their estimation been doing a great job with the series. I would be interested to have a debate on the topic if someone would do so.

[master]

I think the real question is whether you'd prefer it if BS finished the series, RJs notes were released to the public or the series was just ignored after RJs death. I know which one I would pick.

[safwd]

So who are these people in the know Suttree?

I am quite sure that no one from Team Jordan is saying that Brandon isnt trying his best on this story. That is not something they would want to say even if it were true. If it were true and he didnt care to step it up they would just replace him.

 

I know Luckers has had a bit of communication with Brandon but i certainly dont think Brandon has told him he isnt trying. Again, that would be a very bad thing to tell the guy who is huge player on one of the biggest WoT sites.

 

So i ask again, who are these people in the know.

 

It is a fact that Brandon did not have a lot of time with this story before they wanted a book, it is a fact that he didnt have as much time as needed to finish TGS, it is a fact that the edit process was too short on TGS. These all contribute to what many think was not great "RJ" style work in TGS.

What also contribues is the fact that these are not Brandons characters they are RJs. What we now see is an interpretation of RJs characters through the eyes of Brandon. I am sure that Brandon is writing these characters as he sees them, which may not be how "we" see them.

Easy for me to understand, i have talked to alot of people who really like Elayne and i cant stand here. There are many that pure hate Faile and i dont mind her. How you view a character as a fan will influence where you take them in a story. Brandon has admitted this with Cadsuane, he doesnt like her, she comes off unlikeable.

 

If people have a serious complaint than they should be sending them to Harriett and the rest of Team Jordan. Let them know that you think they should have chosen ghost writers for the books instead of an author who has his own writing style. Perhaps they will agree with you.

How often have you heard a Zeppelin or Beatles cover and said "Well, that isnt nearly as good as the original!" Rarely is "It" ever as good as the original.

[capuga]

I used to think along similar lines, and attributed the shortcoming in the books to the processed being rushed(not enough time spent writing and a rushed editing process). Unfortunately some of those in the know have made it pretty clear that Brandon doesn't seem to be trying his best and that is a fairly significant issue.

 

Been awhile since I posted here but this comment provoked me enough to respond.

 

Suttree, I usually find your posts well thought out even when I don't agree with them but I find this assertion that BS isn't trying his hardest to be beyond laughably unbelievable. I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that he hasn't worked his ass off on this project and given it his absolute all. I've heard him give nothing but the highest of respect for RJ and the WoT and his desire to give it the best possible ending he's capable of.

 

To feel that he hasn't done a good job with that is one thing. To suggest it's because he's lazy and not trying is something else. And I find it pretty crappy without any proof to back it up.

[Suttree]

I used to think along similar lines, and attributed the shortcoming in the books to the processed being rushed(not enough time spent writing and a rushed editing process). Unfortunately some of those in the know have made it pretty clear that Brandon doesn't seem to be trying his best and that is a fairly significant issue.

 

Been awhile since I posted here but this comment provoked me enough to respond.

 

Suttree, I usually find your posts well thought out even when I don't agree with them but I find this assertion that BS isn't trying his hardest to be beyond laughably unbelievable. I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that he hasn't worked his ass off on this project and given it his absolute all. I've heard him give nothing but the highest of respect for RJ and the WoT and his desire to give it the best possible ending he's capable of.

 

To feel that he hasn't done a good job with that is one thing. To suggest it's because he's lazy and not trying is something else. And I find it pretty crappy without any proof to back it up.

 

I think you know that I am an open minded poster and take no offense to you asking for clarity on this topic. Here is an example of what I was referring to from another thread. Since that post others whom I trust have said much the same. Let me be clear, the opinions on the matter are not coming from dubious sources. These are people I respect and whom have a very good idea of what goes on in the process.

 

No one is saying he hasn't done an admirable job under difficult circumstances. The problem is both books were greatly rushed and not given nearly enough time for proper revisions and editing. TGS and ToM as a result suffered greatly and the prose at times is rough with blunt plot work to say the least. Both the author and Team Jordan have flat out admitted this and changed their process as a result. They have said they have to get AMoL right and I commend them for admitting the issues and taking steps to address them. Taking this into account I think AMoL should be some of Brandon's best work.

 

To be perfectly honest, some of my greatest issues with Brandon's work deals speacifically with the 'done an admirable job under the circumstances' concept. By this, I refer to the elements where Brandon being forced to write in another writers world has created difficulties beyond that which a writer would normally face... and my problem is simple. It is NOT that Brandon did not do as good a job as Jordan. I want that clear. It is that he did not try.

 

Brandon has been very clear about this. He and I discussed it directly. He has been on record about it numerous times. The issue is, simply, when Brandon has come upon an element of writing that he was not good at, which Jordan was, he shrugs his shoulders and acknowledges the innevitable--and usually thereafter leaves all elements related to such matters to Team Jordan and the Beta Readers. The Timeline is one such element. The use of Foreshadow is another, as is the poetry of the prose--these are not elements I am criticising Brandon on, these are the elements that Brandon acknowledges that he is not good at. And therefore dismissed.

 

That is my problem. When it comes to elements that Brandon is not good at or not interested in, then he does not bother with them. It is not a hubris in him, so far as I can tell. Rather it seems to be a sense of resignation. The sense of 'I can't do this well, so I won't bother trying at all'.

 

With this does he shrug of the timeline issues. With this does he set aside the clunky prose. So my issue with Sanderson Moments is not so much in what happens, as in what doesn't. The negative space is telling--and again, to be clear, this is not that he did not do as good a job as 'Jordan' could have--it's that he didn't do as good a job as 'Brandon' could have.

 

All in all the situation continues to drive home how great a loss RJ's passing was. For the record I do hold out hope that AMoL will be the best of the three. Team Jordan in taking extra time shows they understand the importance of the situation and the need for more polish. Brandon himself acknowledged issues and has changed his writing process. I can only hope the major criticisms have reached him and taken root. It is a big problem when BS acknowledges he can't do something as well as RJ so he just "slammed it on the table"(his words). Regardless they have quite clearly expressed that the quality in in the first two fell short and that they are working to get AMoL "right". Brandon has shown great skill at times in his career. It is time that we hold him to that standard in the WoT instead of taking the rather defeatist view that we are just "lucky to have the story finished".

[capuga]

I used to think along similar lines, and attributed the shortcoming in the books to the processed being rushed(not enough time spent writing and a rushed editing process). Unfortunately some of those in the know have made it pretty clear that Brandon doesn't seem to be trying his best and that is a fairly significant issue.

 

Been awhile since I posted here but this comment provoked me enough to respond.

 

Suttree, I usually find your posts well thought out even when I don't agree with them but I find this assertion that BS isn't trying his hardest to be beyond laughably unbelievable. I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that he hasn't worked his ass off on this project and given it his absolute all. I've heard him give nothing but the highest of respect for RJ and the WoT and his desire to give it the best possible ending he's capable of.

 

To feel that he hasn't done a good job with that is one thing. To suggest it's because he's lazy and not trying is something else. And I find it pretty crappy without any proof to back it up.

 

Here is an example of what I was referring to from another thread Mark. Since that post others whom I trust have said much the same. Let me be clear, the opinions on the matter are not coming from dubious sources. These are people I respect and whom have a very good idea of what goes on in the process.

 

No one is saying he hasn't done an admirable job under difficult circumstances. The problem is both books were greatly rushed and not given nearly enough time for proper revisions and editing. TGS and ToM as a result suffered greatly and the prose at times is rough with blunt plot work to say the least. Both the author and Team Jordan have flat out admitted this and changed their process as a result. They have said they have to get AMoL right and I commend them for admitting the issues and taking steps to address them. Taking this into account I think AMoL should be some of Brandon's best work.

 

To be perfectly honest, some of my greatest issues with Brandon's work deals speacifically with the 'done an admirable job under the circumstances' concept. By this, I refer to the elements where Brandon being forced to write in another writers world has created difficulties beyond that which a writer would normally face... and my problem is simple. It is NOT that Brandon did not do as good a job as Jordan. I want that clear. It is that he did not try.

 

Brandon has been very clear about this. He and I discussed it directly. He has been on record about it numerous times. The issue is, simply, when Brandon has come upon an element of writing that he was not good at, which Jordan was, he shrugs his shoulders and acknowledges the innevitable--and usually thereafter leaves all elements related to such matters to Team Jordan and the Beta Readers. The Timeline is one such element. The use of Foreshadow is another, as is the poetry of the prose--these are not elements I am criticising Brandon on, these are the elements that Brandon acknowledges that he is not good at. And therefore dismissed.

 

That is my problem. When it comes to elements that Brandon is not good at or not interested in, then he does not bother with them. It is not a hubris in him, so far as I can tell. Rather it seems to be a sense of resignation. The sense of 'I can't do this well, so I won't bother trying at all'.

 

With this does he shrug of the timeline issues. With this does he set aside the clunky prose. So my issue with Sanderson Moments is not so much in what happens, as in what doesn't. The negative space is telling--and again, to be clear, this is not that he did not do as good a job as 'Jordan' could have--it's that he didn't do as good a job as 'Brandon' could have.

 

I think the bolded item is an important distinction though. There's a difference between not trying (laziness) and knowing your limitations. Perhaps BS believes that leaving those types of issues to Team Jordan results in a better end product. Let's say that I'm painting my house and come across a wall with a hole in it. Let's say I'm a pretty good painter but I'm not that great at construction type work. Would it be laziness if I called in a handyman to patch up the hole before I painted over it? Or is that just me acknowledging something I can't do that well and letting someone else handle it so the end product looks as good as it can? And despite the fact that I greatly respect Luckers and his posts, I think he's a bit unfairly or overly critical regarding BS's work.