My Take on the RJ/BS Split

[shortkut]

Bringing on a writer whose strengths seem to be polar opposites of RJ's is irritating to fans. RJ was great with prose sure, but managing timelines and the battle sequences are amazing, and BS has said he has trouble with those. Most of the time it doesn't matter, as non-obsessive fans won't notice a month between people 2 countries away, but the dual Tam's is blatant and give rise to assumptions about forsaken that I know I had to come here halfway through reading to dispel.

 

People seem to be conflating two separate issues with the timeline. One is when timelines actually conflict. The other is when you have two plots, one a month behind the other, alternating back and forth between each other. Did Sanderson mess up the dates so that Tam was literally in two places at once? Or are people just talking about how awkward the jumping backwards and forwards a month in time was, especially with Tam making the issue painfully obvious?

 

What I don't understand is why Sanderson didn't include a note before the first chapter about the out-of-sync plots.

 

Because he didn't realise. He openly castigated the beta's for not telling him about this...

i thought it was because fitting it all into tgs would be too long. No one told him? How did no one notice or not say anything?

[Agitel]

Bringing on a writer whose strengths seem to be polar opposites of RJ's is irritating to fans. RJ was great with prose sure, but managing timelines and the battle sequences are amazing, and BS has said he has trouble with those. Most of the time it doesn't matter, as non-obsessive fans won't notice a month between people 2 countries away, but the dual Tam's is blatant and give rise to assumptions about forsaken that I know I had to come here halfway through reading to dispel.

 

People seem to be conflating two separate issues with the timeline. One is when timelines actually conflict. The other is when you have two plots, one a month behind the other, alternating back and forth between each other. Did Sanderson mess up the dates so that Tam was literally in two places at once? Or are people just talking about how awkward the jumping backwards and forwards a month in time was, especially with Tam making the issue painfully obvious?

 

What I don't understand is why Sanderson didn't include a note before the first chapter about the out-of-sync plots.

 

Because he didn't realise. He openly castigated the beta's for not telling him about this...

i thought it was because fitting it all into tgs would be too long. No one told him? How did no one notice or not say anything?

 

No one apparently told him that the jumping back and forth in timelines was awkward or confusing or warranted clarification.

[BFG]

Well... there was that little incident with the "Flashback" in TEotW.... failed technique, whatever.... skipping backwards was likely more jarring to the most amount of readers than just being a month off I would bet.

 

Yeah, that was already addressed earlier in the thread as the one exception where RJ may have lost the integrity of the timeline. Regardless the many examples given for Brandon race straight past that. Contradiction issues, Tam being in two places at the same time, characters hearing rumors of events that haven't happened yet for them etc.

 

As an aside what Short and I are discussing is he claimed the Perrin's ripples were a result of Rand's balefiring Natrin's barrow. He refuses to believe Steven Cooper's timeline that shows Rand's scene came well over 30 days after.

 

Edit: Thank you Sid for pulling that evidence.

 

This threw me as I was reading it, but a little later in Perrins storyline he sees Rand on the DM, this cleared up the issue and thought that Perrin was just playing catch up with story line. I agree with another poster that it would have been clearer if there had been a note to say that the timelines overlapped.

 

Back to the original post...

 

 

...I believe that those who like BS' work were very unhappy with the state of the series before RJ died. I, on the other hand , and those like me could have stood another 7 books to close out the story. I truly had no problem with any of the series' books up until 9 and 10. Even those, the first time through, were pretty decent. HOWEVER, I absolutely loved the 11th book. When taking re-reads into account, the 11th book is my favorite. Knife of Dreams is the Mat Cauthon vehicle, and as for many others, Mat became my favorite character.

 

This is where I feel that Robert Jordan really created a truly transcendent series. The first 5 or 6 books focus in on Rand's story, and he is my favorite character. Then Perrin becomes prominent. And finally, Mat Cauthon comes into his own. This is why I had no problem with the longevity of the series; the characterization was so stellar. As I became tired of one or two of the characters, others would come into their own.

 

What makes the Wheel of Time so special is that, sure it has an incredibly EPIC plot, but I feel this is secondary to the characterization of so many wonderful protagonists. If you look at almost all of the characters (sure, some like Elayne never really evolved or had depth) at the beginning of the series and at the end of the eleventh book, they are in very different places. Robert Jordan developed his characters subtly and brilliantly as only the best writers can. His series is so great, because he gives us both plot AND characterization..

 

Characterization, not just in the Wheel of Time but in the Mistborn Trilogy as well, is something BS just can't really do. Look at Rand's breakthrough in TGS; it is an immediate revelatory kind of development. BS can only really make his characters change in fits and starts. And I'm not really throwing stones at the guy. There is a real trend in epic fantasy recently (the last ten or fifteen years) that emphasizes intricate and huge plot lines at the cost of interesting and deep characters. I believe the most glaring example of this is the Malazan series. I read the Mistborn trilogy, and Kelsier and Vin were pretty well done. After the first book however, Kelsier is gone, and Vin becomes very flat, only developing unnaturally in fits and starts. So, BS really suffers from poor characterization in all of his work in my opinion.

 

All in all, I believe that so many of the WoT faithful are more than willing to sacrifice characterization simply to have the plot closed out quickly. It saddens me, but I understand their feelings in wanting closure. It does anger me however when some venerate BS' closing of the plot at the expense of all of the great characterization that Robert Jordan gave us over the years. On my last couple of re-reads, even Nynaeve became this very three dimensional character who used abrasiveness as a way to separate herself to fulfill the social role she wasn't mature enough for. It's just little subtle things like that that I don't even think BS notices or cares to include.

 

I'm not so sure that it's a question of people preferring plot over characterisation, but how close BS's interpretation of a character is to the readers. Based on a discussion on the horn, within 30 posts (or so) there were four credible interpretations of (essentially) 3 words that Hawkwing said, and as such it is entirely believable that 30 people can read the same character and have 30 views of that character. The problem is that when one of those readers then continues the story that character seems off to the other readers. Using two (fairly big) examples from my PoV are Mat and Cadsuane.

 

Like several posters I think Mats character is 'off'. But I can understand that others haven't noticed the difference because his actions have remained true to how I imagine Mat acting, the badger in ToM doesn't surprise me at all, and still makes me smile!

 

I don't necessarily agree that Cadsuanes off, the scene that seems to come up with being most often quoted is the one at the end of GS with Tam. I can believe that RJ would have written this, but he'd have included several scenes earlier that detailed Cads growing frustration, and even despair that everything she'd worked towards for her entire life is going up in flames. As written by BS it seemed a bit sudden, but I can understand how her character got there. (There are elements of one character looking smart by making another look dumb, but I notice this more with Egwene and the other AS.)

 

And with the revelation scene I'm not sure how else it could have been written, I didn't think it was ever going to be a gradual descent into darkness followed by a gradual climb back out. It was always going to be a breakthrough moment and that's what it was. Rand then disappears for a few days, presumable while he thinks about it, and then reappears as Rand Sedai.

 

I don't think there can be much argument that RJ would have taken 6 books to finish the story and based on KoD they would have probably been excellent, but I'm not sure what I think about the 'BS writing 3 books' as opposed to the 'unknown author writing 6 books' debate. No matter who else wrote it they'd always be putting their interpretation of the charaters over RJs (which means more debates along the Mat, Cads, Eg line) and more books also means more things included that weren't directly referenced by RJ, and I can see the uproar about that now...

[Suttree]

This threw me as I was reading it, but a little later in Perrins storyline he sees Rand on the DM, this cleared up the issue and thought that Perrin was just playing catch up with story line. I agree with another poster that it would have been clearer if there had been a note to say that the timelines overlapped.

 

The reason I listed it with the others is it's an example of clumsy writing which could have easily been fixed with a little more effort.

 

 

Back to the original post...I don't think there can be much argument that RJ would have taken 6 books to finish the story and based on KoD they would have probably been excellent,

 

Actually there have been many discussion on how many more would have been written if RJ was alive and the consensus has been nowhere near 6. KoD showed he knew where he was going and had an increased pace. RJ was adamant things would have been done in one more book. Now I don't believe that is realistic but it could easily have been a huge book split into to two parts. TGS and ToM for all their increased pace have an absurd amount of filler.

[thisguy]

This threw me as I was reading it, but a little later in Perrins storyline he sees Rand on the DM, this cleared up the issue and thought that Perrin was just playing catch up with story line. I agree with another poster that it would have been clearer if there had been a note to say that the timelines overlapped.

 

The reason I listed it with the others is it's an example of clumsy writing which could have easily been fixed with a little more effort.

 

 

Back to the original post...I don't think there can be much argument that RJ would have taken 6 books to finish the story and based on KoD they would have probably been excellent,

 

Actually there have been many discussion on how many more would have been written if RJ was alive and the consensus has been nowhere near 6. KoD showed he knew where he was going and had an increased pace. RJ was adamant things would have been done in one more book. Now I don't believe that is realistic but it could easily have been a huge book split into to two parts. TGS and ToM for all their increased pace have an absurd amount of filler.

 

The clumsy writing bit - I think the editor of WoT throughout the series has missed so many grammatical mistakes it's unreal.

[Suttree]

This threw me as I was reading it, but a little later in Perrins storyline he sees Rand on the DM, this cleared up the issue and thought that Perrin was just playing catch up with story line. I agree with another poster that it would have been clearer if there had been a note to say that the timelines overlapped.

 

The reason I listed it with the others is it's an example of clumsy writing which could have easily been fixed with a little more effort.

 

 

Back to the original post...I don't think there can be much argument that RJ would have taken 6 books to finish the story and based on KoD they would have probably been excellent,

 

Actually there have been many discussion on how many more would have been written if RJ was alive and the consensus has been nowhere near 6. KoD showed he knew where he was going and had an increased pace. RJ was adamant things would have been done in one more book. Now I don't believe that is realistic but it could easily have been a huge book split into to two parts. TGS and ToM for all their increased pace have an absurd amount of filler.

 

The clumsy writing bit - I think the editor of WoT throughout the series has missed so many grammatical mistakes it's unreal.

 

Team Jordan has not done a great job in the rushed process. That should go without saying. For me though it comes down to a writer taking responsibility for the end product. Get more involved and don't distance yourself from the process. It needs to be a constant back and forth. As mentioned BS announced his work was done before the revision process was finished and a beta reader had even seen the book. How is that even possible?

[thisguy]

This threw me as I was reading it, but a little later in Perrins storyline he sees Rand on the DM, this cleared up the issue and thought that Perrin was just playing catch up with story line. I agree with another poster that it would have been clearer if there had been a note to say that the timelines overlapped.

 

The reason I listed it with the others is it's an example of clumsy writing which could have easily been fixed with a little more effort.

 

 

Back to the original post...I don't think there can be much argument that RJ would have taken 6 books to finish the story and based on KoD they would have probably been excellent,

 

Actually there have been many discussion on how many more would have been written if RJ was alive and the consensus has been nowhere near 6. KoD showed he knew where he was going and had an increased pace. RJ was adamant things would have been done in one more book. Now I don't believe that is realistic but it could easily have been a huge book split into to two parts. TGS and ToM for all their increased pace have an absurd amount of filler.

 

The clumsy writing bit - I think the editor of WoT throughout the series has missed so many grammatical mistakes it's unreal.

 

Team Jordan has not done a great job in the rushed process. That should go without saying. For me though it comes down to a writer taking responsibility for the end product. Get more involved and don't distance yourself from the process. It needs to be a constant back and forth. As mentioned BS announced his work was done before the revision process was finished and a beta reader had even seen the book. How is that even possible?

That is strange. But, I meant from Book 1 there are mistakes that are kinda weird for an editor to pass by. My biggest gripe is the further v farther thing. The first 3 books are almost all further even when it should be farther - except for a 100-200 page section of book 1. Then it goes away for a while and pops up again in later books.

[BFG]

This threw me as I was reading it, but a little later in Perrins storyline he sees Rand on the DM, this cleared up the issue and thought that Perrin was just playing catch up with story line. I agree with another poster that it would have been clearer if there had been a note to say that the timelines overlapped.

 

The reason I listed it with the others is it's an example of clumsy writing which could have easily been fixed with a little more effort.

 

 

Back to the original post...I don't think there can be much argument that RJ would have taken 6 books to finish the story and based on KoD they would have probably been excellent,

 

Actually there have been many discussion on how many more would have been written if RJ was alive and the consensus has been nowhere near 6. KoD showed he knew where he was going and had an increased pace. RJ was adamant things would have been done in one more book. Now I don't believe that is realistic but it could easily have been a huge book split into to two parts. TGS and ToM for all their increased pace have an absurd amount of filler.

 

Only just started a full re-read since the release of tGS and am currently only on tSR (reread quite slow as most of the books are currently on loan to a friend), but I have re-read both of BS's books a couple of times. I don't (ducks) recall a lot of filler from the books, but this could be just be because stuff happens (may not be integral to the plot, but stuff definitely happens). When I'm reading it, it's not the grammatical errors that pulled me out (possibly because my grammar isn't very good), but when a character jars with my perception of him, or her. But as I said, I think this is because of readers perceptions of the character being different and would happen with different characters no matter who wrote the books. So clearly my perception, of eg Mat, is different from BS.

 

I agree that KoD showed that the story was moving to a conclusion, and there was a faster pace (and Mat was written so strongly that it's making me re-evaluate him in tGH and tDR, where previously he was only a favourite after Couladin), but I struggle to see how he'd have finished it in 3 books (being new(ish) to the boards I haven't looked at the discussions past about page 8, so haven't read the counter-arguments). I haven't (and probably won't) read the Q & A's or interviews, as I want the story to stand by itself (in the same way that a successful film adaptation shouldn't rely on people reading the book first), and based on that, and how many plot-lines there were to tie up I couldn't see it taking less than 3, but I'll accept more informed opinions. I also can't argue that especially in this situation there should be a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between BS and readers.

 

Tam highlights a problem that epic fantasy tends to have, in the middle of the story when generally speaking characters are the furthest apart, do you finish a few character arcs while sacrificing chronology, which (imo) generally makes a stronger story, or do you follow each of the characters a bit, but the character arc may fall randomly over several books. I think Wheel of Time (and in fact Perrins storyline) can provide the problems with both. Tam is the obvious problem with the first, there are also other problems, getting Verins to tie in over tGS is also extremely problematic, based on what I've seen of others timelines. But the Faile is captured arc highlights the problem with the other method. My perception is that for a very long time Perrin does nothing except be angry and chase Faile. I think that when I get to that bit again, I'll be surprised by how little screen time is actually given to it for most of the time and it may be something that improves on rereads when I don't have to wait years for the next bit of his story that sounds exactly the same, fingers crossed

[Joebiwan]

I think it is amazing what Brandon Sanderson has done. To abandon your own work and try to finish someone else's huge series is insane. No matter what there are going to be issues, sure BS may have read the books and all of RJ's notes, but he doesn’t have everything that RJ had in his head. I've read a lot that an author's characters are based on themselves or people they know in many ways, thus BS is going to have major issues replicating any characters perfectly. I think for the most part the problems with the last two books are unavoidable, and no matter who was chose there would be just as many issues. Critiquing him is perfectly fine, but I think he also deserves a great deal of props for doing what he has done/is doing.

 

 

PS: sorry if this is a bit rambley.

[thisguy]

I think it is amazing what Brandon Sanderson has done. To abandon your own work and try to finish someone else's huge series is insane. No matter what there are going to be issues, sure BS may have read the books and all of RJ's notes, but he doesn’t have everything that RJ had in his head. I've read a lot that an author's characters are based on themselves or people they know in many ways, thus BS is going to have major issues replicating any characters perfectly. I think for the most part the problems with the last two books are unavoidable, and no matter who was chose there would be just as many issues. Critiquing him is perfectly fine, but I think he also deserves a great deal of props for doing what he has done/is doing.

 

 

PS: sorry if this is a bit rambley.

I agree. There would have been problems and criticisms no matter who was hired to finish the job.

This threw me as I was reading it, but a little later in Perrins storyline he sees Rand on the DM, this cleared up the issue and thought that Perrin was just playing catch up with story line. I agree with another poster that it would have been clearer if there had been a note to say that the timelines overlapped.

 

The reason I listed it with the others is it's an example of clumsy writing which could have easily been fixed with a little more effort.

 

 

Back to the original post...I don't think there can be much argument that RJ would have taken 6 books to finish the story and based on KoD they would have probably been excellent,

 

Actually there have been many discussion on how many more would have been written if RJ was alive and the consensus has been nowhere near 6. KoD showed he knew where he was going and had an increased pace. RJ was adamant things would have been done in one more book. Now I don't believe that is realistic but it could easily have been a huge book split into to two parts. TGS and ToM for all their increased pace have an absurd amount of filler.

 

Only just started a full re-read since the release of tGS and am currently only on tSR (reread quite slow as most of the books are currently on loan to a friend), but I have re-read both of BS's books a couple of times. I don't (ducks) recall a lot of filler from the books, but this could be just be because stuff happens (may not be integral to the plot, but stuff definitely happens). When I'm reading it, it's not the grammatical errors that pulled me out (possibly because my grammar isn't very good), but when a character jars with my perception of him, or her. But as I said, I think this is because of readers perceptions of the character being different and would happen with different characters no matter who wrote the books. So clearly my perception, of eg Mat, is different from BS.

 

I agree that KoD showed that the story was moving to a conclusion, and there was a faster pace (and Mat was written so strongly that it's making me re-evaluate him in tGH and tDR, where previously he was only a favourite after Couladin), but I struggle to see how he'd have finished it in 3 books (being new(ish) to the boards I haven't looked at the discussions past about page 8, so haven't read the counter-arguments). I haven't (and probably won't) read the Q & A's or interviews, as I want the story to stand by itself (in the same way that a successful film adaptation shouldn't rely on people reading the book first), and based on that, and how many plot-lines there were to tie up I couldn't see it taking less than 3, but I'll accept more informed opinions. I also can't argue that especially in this situation there should be a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between BS and readers.

 

Tam highlights a problem that epic fantasy tends to have, in the middle of the story when generally speaking characters are the furthest apart, do you finish a few character arcs while sacrificing chronology, which (imo) generally makes a stronger story, or do you follow each of the characters a bit, but the character arc may fall randomly over several books. I think Wheel of Time (and in fact Perrins storyline) can provide the problems with both. Tam is the obvious problem with the first, there are also other problems, getting Verins to tie in over tGS is also extremely problematic, based on what I've seen of others timelines. But the Faile is captured arc highlights the problem with the other method. My perception is that for a very long time Perrin does nothing except be angry and chase Faile. I think that when I get to that bit again, I'll be surprised by how little screen time is actually given to it for most of the time and it may be something that improves on rereads when I don't have to wait years for the next bit of his story that sounds exactly the same, fingers crossed

It's funny you say that. I'm rereading the books - just finished book 9 - I remembered Rand going over the list of women who have died for him or because of him more times than he does.

[BFG]

I think it is amazing what Brandon Sanderson has done. To abandon your own work and try to finish someone else's huge series is insane. No matter what there are going to be issues, sure BS may have read the books and all of RJ's notes, but he doesn’t have everything that RJ had in his head. I've read a lot that an author's characters are based on themselves or people they know in many ways, thus BS is going to have major issues replicating any characters perfectly. I think for the most part the problems with the last two books are unavoidable, and no matter who was chose there would be just as many issues. Critiquing him is perfectly fine, but I think he also deserves a great deal of props for doing what he has done/is doing.

 

 

PS: sorry if this is a bit rambley.

I agree. There would have been problems and criticisms no matter who was hired to finish the job.

This threw me as I was reading it, but a little later in Perrins storyline he sees Rand on the DM, this cleared up the issue and thought that Perrin was just playing catch up with story line. I agree with another poster that it would have been clearer if there had been a note to say that the timelines overlapped.

 

The reason I listed it with the others is it's an example of clumsy writing which could have easily been fixed with a little more effort.

 

 

Back to the original post...I don't think there can be much argument that RJ would have taken 6 books to finish the story and based on KoD they would have probably been excellent,

 

Actually there have been many discussion on how many more would have been written if RJ was alive and the consensus has been nowhere near 6. KoD showed he knew where he was going and had an increased pace. RJ was adamant things would have been done in one more book. Now I don't believe that is realistic but it could easily have been a huge book split into to two parts. TGS and ToM for all their increased pace have an absurd amount of filler.

 

Only just started a full re-read since the release of tGS and am currently only on tSR (reread quite slow as most of the books are currently on loan to a friend), but I have re-read both of BS's books a couple of times. I don't (ducks) recall a lot of filler from the books, but this could be just be because stuff happens (may not be integral to the plot, but stuff definitely happens). When I'm reading it, it's not the grammatical errors that pulled me out (possibly because my grammar isn't very good), but when a character jars with my perception of him, or her. But as I said, I think this is because of readers perceptions of the character being different and would happen with different characters no matter who wrote the books. So clearly my perception, of eg Mat, is different from BS.

 

I agree that KoD showed that the story was moving to a conclusion, and there was a faster pace (and Mat was written so strongly that it's making me re-evaluate him in tGH and tDR, where previously he was only a favourite after Couladin), but I struggle to see how he'd have finished it in 3 books (being new(ish) to the boards I haven't looked at the discussions past about page 8, so haven't read the counter-arguments). I haven't (and probably won't) read the Q & A's or interviews, as I want the story to stand by itself (in the same way that a successful film adaptation shouldn't rely on people reading the book first), and based on that, and how many plot-lines there were to tie up I couldn't see it taking less than 3, but I'll accept more informed opinions. I also can't argue that especially in this situation there should be a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between BS and readers.

 

Tam highlights a problem that epic fantasy tends to have, in the middle of the story when generally speaking characters are the furthest apart, do you finish a few character arcs while sacrificing chronology, which (imo) generally makes a stronger story, or do you follow each of the characters a bit, but the character arc may fall randomly over several books. I think Wheel of Time (and in fact Perrins storyline) can provide the problems with both. Tam is the obvious problem with the first, there are also other problems, getting Verins to tie in over tGS is also extremely problematic, based on what I've seen of others timelines. But the Faile is captured arc highlights the problem with the other method. My perception is that for a very long time Perrin does nothing except be angry and chase Faile. I think that when I get to that bit again, I'll be surprised by how little screen time is actually given to it for most of the time and it may be something that improves on rereads when I don't have to wait years for the next bit of his story that sounds exactly the same, fingers crossed

It's funny you say that. I'm rereading the books - just finished book 9 - I remembered Rand going over the list of women who have died for him or because of him more times than he does.

 

Double agree with joebiwan who explained what I was trying to say a lot more concisely. ANd would like to add that generally speaking I like what BS has done and am hugely appreciative the stories are being finished. Despite the problems with chronology I like tGS outline, I'd have found it really difficult for Rand to be that dark for another book!

 

That's good about the list, should also make it easier to read :) I guess I'll find out if Perrins story line works better without the wait between books being published, or if he does spend as much time moping after Faile and not doing anything as I remember :)

[thisguy]

I think it is amazing what Brandon Sanderson has done. To abandon your own work and try to finish someone else's huge series is insane. No matter what there are going to be issues, sure BS may have read the books and all of RJ's notes, but he doesn’t have everything that RJ had in his head. I've read a lot that an author's characters are based on themselves or people they know in many ways, thus BS is going to have major issues replicating any characters perfectly. I think for the most part the problems with the last two books are unavoidable, and no matter who was chose there would be just as many issues. Critiquing him is perfectly fine, but I think he also deserves a great deal of props for doing what he has done/is doing.

 

 

PS: sorry if this is a bit rambley.

I agree. There would have been problems and criticisms no matter who was hired to finish the job.

This threw me as I was reading it, but a little later in Perrins storyline he sees Rand on the DM, this cleared up the issue and thought that Perrin was just playing catch up with story line. I agree with another poster that it would have been clearer if there had been a note to say that the timelines overlapped.

 

The reason I listed it with the others is it's an example of clumsy writing which could have easily been fixed with a little more effort.

 

 

Back to the original post...I don't think there can be much argument that RJ would have taken 6 books to finish the story and based on KoD they would have probably been excellent,

 

Actually there have been many discussion on how many more would have been written if RJ was alive and the consensus has been nowhere near 6. KoD showed he knew where he was going and had an increased pace. RJ was adamant things would have been done in one more book. Now I don't believe that is realistic but it could easily have been a huge book split into to two parts. TGS and ToM for all their increased pace have an absurd amount of filler.

 

Only just started a full re-read since the release of tGS and am currently only on tSR (reread quite slow as most of the books are currently on loan to a friend), but I have re-read both of BS's books a couple of times. I don't (ducks) recall a lot of filler from the books, but this could be just be because stuff happens (may not be integral to the plot, but stuff definitely happens). When I'm reading it, it's not the grammatical errors that pulled me out (possibly because my grammar isn't very good), but when a character jars with my perception of him, or her. But as I said, I think this is because of readers perceptions of the character being different and would happen with different characters no matter who wrote the books. So clearly my perception, of eg Mat, is different from BS.

 

I agree that KoD showed that the story was moving to a conclusion, and there was a faster pace (and Mat was written so strongly that it's making me re-evaluate him in tGH and tDR, where previously he was only a favourite after Couladin), but I struggle to see how he'd have finished it in 3 books (being new(ish) to the boards I haven't looked at the discussions past about page 8, so haven't read the counter-arguments). I haven't (and probably won't) read the Q & A's or interviews, as I want the story to stand by itself (in the same way that a successful film adaptation shouldn't rely on people reading the book first), and based on that, and how many plot-lines there were to tie up I couldn't see it taking less than 3, but I'll accept more informed opinions. I also can't argue that especially in this situation there should be a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between BS and readers.

 

Tam highlights a problem that epic fantasy tends to have, in the middle of the story when generally speaking characters are the furthest apart, do you finish a few character arcs while sacrificing chronology, which (imo) generally makes a stronger story, or do you follow each of the characters a bit, but the character arc may fall randomly over several books. I think Wheel of Time (and in fact Perrins storyline) can provide the problems with both. Tam is the obvious problem with the first, there are also other problems, getting Verins to tie in over tGS is also extremely problematic, based on what I've seen of others timelines. But the Faile is captured arc highlights the problem with the other method. My perception is that for a very long time Perrin does nothing except be angry and chase Faile. I think that when I get to that bit again, I'll be surprised by how little screen time is actually given to it for most of the time and it may be something that improves on rereads when I don't have to wait years for the next bit of his story that sounds exactly the same, fingers crossed

It's funny you say that. I'm rereading the books - just finished book 9 - I remembered Rand going over the list of women who have died for him or because of him more times than he does.

 

Double agree with joebiwan who explained what I was trying to say a lot more concisely. ANd would like to add that generally speaking I like what BS has done and am hugely appreciative the stories are being finished. Despite the problems with chronology I like tGS outline, I'd have found it really difficult for Rand to be that dark for another book!

 

That's good about the list, should also make it easier to read :) I guess I'll find out if Perrins story line works better without the wait between books being published, or if he does spend as much time moping after Faile and not doing anything as I remember :)

I'm a Perrin fan. On my reread, I liked it far more than Mat during the first few books. His storyline does get bogged down by marriage, but who's doesn't?! ;)

[BFG]

I'm a Perrin fan. On my reread, I liked it far more than Mat during the first few books. His storyline does get bogged down by marriage, but who's doesn't?! ;)

 

Think I was the opposite, first read through I preferred Perrin, books 1-4, then after Mat took responsibility for the first time, I liked them equally, then Perrin got bogged down doing nothing, and Mat started his courtship of Tuon and Mat became my favourite. However, on re-reads I'm liking Mat more, earlier, although still liking Perrin until Faile is kidnapped. The thing I'm finding most interesting on re-reads is how my opinions are changing regarding the wondergirls. When I started reading I sympathsed with Eg and didn't really like Nyn until quite late. But again on rereads I like Nyn earlier and earlier, I'm kind of dreading the next bit with the circus.

[thisguy]

I'm a Perrin fan. On my reread, I liked it far more than Mat during the first few books. His storyline does get bogged down by marriage, but who's doesn't?! ;)

 

Think I was the opposite, first read through I preferred Perrin, books 1-4, then after Mat took responsibility for the first time, I liked them equally, then Perrin got bogged down doing nothing, and Mat started his courtship of Tuon and Mat became my favourite. However, on re-reads I'm liking Mat more, earlier, although still liking Perrin until Faile is kidnapped. The thing I'm finding most interesting on re-reads is how my opinions are changing regarding the wondergirls. When I started reading I sympathsed with Eg and didn't really like Nyn until quite late. But again on rereads I like Nyn earlier and earlier, I'm kind of dreading the next bit with the circus.

We're basically in the same boat. Nyn used annoyed me and then I liked her, opposite for Eg. Now, I like Nyn in most scenes except for when Lan comes back and pulls her out of the sea. She's a crazy $#%# in that scene.

That's pretty much how I feel about Mat and Perrin. I never like Mat in the first few books, even before being infected he was just a selfish ass who didn't contribute much.

[BFG]

I'm a Perrin fan. On my reread, I liked it far more than Mat during the first few books. His storyline does get bogged down by marriage, but who's doesn't?! ;)

 

Think I was the opposite, first read through I preferred Perrin, books 1-4, then after Mat took responsibility for the first time, I liked them equally, then Perrin got bogged down doing nothing, and Mat started his courtship of Tuon and Mat became my favourite. However, on re-reads I'm liking Mat more, earlier, although still liking Perrin until Faile is kidnapped. The thing I'm finding most interesting on re-reads is how my opinions are changing regarding the wondergirls. When I started reading I sympathsed with Eg and didn't really like Nyn until quite late. But again on rereads I like Nyn earlier and earlier, I'm kind of dreading the next bit with the circus.

We're basically in the same boat. Nyn used annoyed me and then I liked her, opposite for Eg. Now, I like Nyn in most scenes except for when Lan comes back and pulls her out of the sea. She's a crazy $#%# in that scene.

That's pretty much how I feel about Mat and Perrin. I never like Mat in the first few books, even before being infected he was just a selfish ass who didn't contribute much.

 

Kind of what I mean,. about liking him earlier. Easiest example for me to think of is end of tGH, Rand tells everyone to go and Mat is the first to speak up and say that rescuing Eg isn't a waste of time, even though he has no time to waste. There are other instances right through where he puts others first, it's just that it's intertwined with Rand and the Dragons stuff (in which he acts like an ass), but the hints are there.

[ViperThreat]

Hmm. I might not be as much as a critic as some, but i think that BS is doing a pretty good job. He made it clear that he is using RJ's notes to complete the series and is keeping it as close to the notes as possible. He also made it very clear that when writing the books, he did not attempt to match the writing style of RJ, and im not sure why anybody expected him to do so. In many ways, I have seen major improvements in the writing since BS took over. Character development has increased drastically, and though the style of writing has changed, I can still clearly picture each scene as I read it.

 

I trust that Brandon is doing his best to keep the series as close to RJ's wishes as possible, and though its definitely different than RJ's writing, its still the same story, and there are passages that give me shivers every time i read them. I honestly cant think of any other author who could have done as well.

 

I mean, if George RR Martin had taken over the series, everybody would have been dead by now, and Every inn would suddenly be some sort of whore-house.

[Suttree]

Hmm. I might not be as much as a critic as some, but i think that BS is doing a pretty good job. He made it clear that he is using RJ's notes to complete the series and is keeping it as close to the notes as possible. He also made it very clear that when writing the books, he did not attempt to match the writing style of RJ, and im not sure why anybody expected him to do so. In many ways, I have seen major improvements in the writing since BS took over. Character development has increased drastically, and though the style of writing has changed, I can still clearly picture each scene as I read it.

 

What people need to realize however is the notes were far less robust than initially thought. BS has had to create from scratch an incredible amount of the details. This would make things considerably more difficult for him I would think. He has had to make a large number of decisions in places that had little direction and we will never know if it is what RJ would have wanted.

 

That si one of my bigger arguments against not putting out any more books. With far less material to work with they essentially would be a "shared world" creation and not RJ's.

[BFG]

Hmm. I might not be as much as a critic as some, but i think that BS is doing a pretty good job. He made it clear that he is using RJ's notes to complete the series and is keeping it as close to the notes as possible. He also made it very clear that when writing the books, he did not attempt to match the writing style of RJ, and im not sure why anybody expected him to do so. In many ways, I have seen major improvements in the writing since BS took over. Character development has increased drastically, and though the style of writing has changed, I can still clearly picture each scene as I read it.

 

What people need to realize however is the notes were far less robust than initially thought. BS has had to create from scratch an incredible amount of the details. This would make things considerably more difficult for him I would think. He has had to make a large number of decisions in places that had little direction and we will never know if it is what RJ would have wanted.

 

That si one of my bigger arguments against not putting out any more books. With far less material to work with they essentially would be a "shared world" creation and not RJ's.

 

I agree about not wanting it to become a shared world. as well as RJ not wanting it this is a world that it wouldn't work in. These threads demonstrate that everyone views the characters differently, as such future stories wouldn't work, but mostly because RJ was against it, his world, his rules.

[Suttree]

Saw this post from fionwe over at TL and thought it did a great job highlighting some of the issues with characterization and also pinpointing worries for the future. Couldn't agree more on being nervous with the interactions moving forward into AMoL given Bs's track record of "dumbing down"

 

 

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

In ToM, the quality really plummeted. I may be wrong (and maybe Terez or someone will correct me here), but a huge ton of Egwene in ToM wasn't really in the outline, and the way she comes across in much of ToM is like a caricature of herself. Almost all subtlety in her thought process is gone, and some of her actions blatantly don't fit her characterization (especially the execrable scene where Nynaeve is raised AS- it was almost as if someone else was playing the role of Egwene, and as if Egwene had forgotten her pivotal revelations in TAR in the previous book). And the Gawyn-Egwene interaction was just pathetic.

 

So I don't know if I'd say he gets Egwene right. With her, its not so much the tone of the writing or the dialogue but the utter lack of subtlety in plot and characterization.

 

Perrin, on the other hand, Brandon seems to really get. Not just his way of thinking (which is thankfully not convoluted at all), but also the tone of his stream of consciousness.

 

But that deliberate way of thinking read awfully when applied to more complex thinkers like Egwene, Siuan, Cadsuane and Rand. I'm actually quite dreading how Brandon will deal with Zen-Rand. Given his penchant for only having one character in the scene in the forefront and "successful", I'm wondering how he'll handle the scenes where Rand interacts in greater detail with people like Egwene, Elayne, Tuon etc.

 

Take how Jordan handled the interactions between Moiraine-Rand-Egwene in tSR and tFoH. There are some really excellent conversations between them that really show how you have Moiraine trying to lead one way, Rand resisting, and Egwene caught between trying to do a really hamfisted job of mediating. Yet no one thinks of themselves that way, no one states it out. For all that, it sets the tone for Egwene thinking Rand is a little erratic and temperamental and Rand thinking Egwene was too loyal to the Tower and the Wise Ones. That really leads very well into their later actions regarding each other.

 

Can Brandon handle these kinds of interactions, especially now with these exact characters grown up and so much more experienced? In many ways, I think aMoL is going to be the true challenge for Brandon. Think Mat and Aviendha are hard to write? How about both of them interacting in the same scene? Their last time together left them with bemusingly incorrect views of each other. Now they've both been trough so much. How to write their interactions so it flows from their previous time together, yet incorporates all the changes in them?

 

And I'm really freaked by things like Tuon and Egwene meeting for the first time, or Siuan and Moiraine meeting again. Not only are these long anticipated, they are scenes that can really change the perception of the book greatly. I don't say Brandon is incapable of doing these scenes, but based on past evidence, I'm really worried about many layers in these scenes being simply stripped away

 

Reading through these last two books again it is crazy how often people tell us what they are about to do or think out their thoughts in excruciating detail. Maybe AMoL isn't exactly the time with all the battles and what not but would it kill us to get just a touch of subtlety? fionwe is absolutely correct in that AMoL will be the true test for Brandon. One last opportunity to really get things "right"(actual quote from TJ) with the WoT and grow as an author. One last chance to cement RJ's legacy within the fantasy genre. "Dovie'andi se tovya sagain."

[roocifer]

I think a bit of it is mental.

I know when I was reading the last 2 books, I kept thinking and noticing how different it was now that Brandon is writing. Only later did I find out that many of the scenes in which I was feeling this were actually completely written by RJ. I'm not saying I disagree with all that has been said above by others, but I do feel like our scrutiny has been subconsciously amplified by the fact that we know it is a different author.

[Alric]

I just finished KoD, I couldn't help noticing that I though RJ wrote somewhat differently in that one compared to earlier books. The language seemed more straightforward in several cases, and I kept pondering over some of his choices of words. It could be imagination. It could be that I expected KoD to be "different" considering how much everyone said its more action packed and that RJ finally decided to start rushing things along. I don't know. But considering how that kept popping up in my head during RJ's last book, I can easily imagine that the feeling will only get stronger in the BS books, no matter whats real and whats imagination.

[Suttree]

I think a bit of it is mental.

I know when I was reading the last 2 books, I kept thinking and noticing how different it was now that Brandon is writing. Only later did I find out that many of the scenes in which I was feeling this were actually completely written by RJ.

 

Would be interested to hear what those were? The reality is the scenes completly written by RJ are pretty few and far between. The notes are far more scarce than people think. The only one that really stands out as something people got wrong as to who the author was is the ToG sequence. In fact this idea that people frequently confuse the scenes has somehow taken on a life of it's own. I actually have never heard of it happening beyond the ToG. Things like Hinderstrap for instance, there is no way anyone would ever confuse that for RJ.

[BFG]

I think a bit of it is mental.

I know when I was reading the last 2 books, I kept thinking and noticing how different it was now that Brandon is writing. Only later did I find out that many of the scenes in which I was feeling this were actually completely written by RJ.

 

Would be interested to hear what those were? The reality is the scenes completly written by RJ are pretty few and far between. The notes are far more scarce than people think. The only one that really stands out as something people got wrong as to who the author was is the ToG sequence. In fact this idea that people frequently confuse the scenes has somehow taken on a life of it's own. I actually have never heard of it happening beyond the ToG. Things like Hinderstrap for instance, there is no way anyone would ever confuse that for RJ.

 

I'm intrigued by this. Generally I'm not good enough at analysing styles of writing well enough to differentiate between the authors, but this is one that I attributed to RJ. Any chance you could let me know? Cheers

[Suttree]

I think a bit of it is mental.

I know when I was reading the last 2 books, I kept thinking and noticing how different it was now that Brandon is writing. Only later did I find out that many of the scenes in which I was feeling this were actually completely written by RJ.

 

Would be interested to hear what those were? The reality is the scenes completly written by RJ are pretty few and far between. The notes are far more scarce than people think. The only one that really stands out as something people got wrong as to who the author was is the ToG sequence. In fact this idea that people frequently confuse the scenes has somehow taken on a life of it's own. I actually have never heard of it happening beyond the ToG. Things like Hinderstrap for instance, there is no way anyone would ever confuse that for RJ.

 

I'm intrigued by this. Generally I'm not good enough at analysing styles of writing well enough to differentiate between the authors, but this is one that I attributed to RJ. Any chance you could let me know? Cheers

 

When ToM first came out people were claiming Brandon ruined the ToG sequence. Which is of course ridiculous as we know RJ wrote most of it even if there are some Brandonisms thrown in. This is really the only part I have seen numerous people get wrong in relation to who wrote what.

[BFG]

I think a bit of it is mental.

I know when I was reading the last 2 books, I kept thinking and noticing how different it was now that Brandon is writing. Only later did I find out that many of the scenes in which I was feeling this were actually completely written by RJ.

 

Would be interested to hear what those were? The reality is the scenes completly written by RJ are pretty few and far between. The notes are far more scarce than people think. The only one that really stands out as something people got wrong as to who the author was is the ToG sequence. In fact this idea that people frequently confuse the scenes has somehow taken on a life of it's own. I actually have never heard of it happening beyond the ToG. Things like Hinderstrap for instance, there is no way anyone would ever confuse that for RJ.

 

I'm intrigued by this. Generally I'm not good enough at analysing styles of writing well enough to differentiate between the authors, but this is one that I attributed to RJ. Any chance you could let me know? Cheers

 

When ToM first came out people were claiming Brandon ruined the ToG sequence. Which is of course ridiculous as we know RJ wrote most of it even if there are some Brandonisms thrown in. This is really the only part I have seen numerous people get wrong in relation to who wrote what.

 

Thanks!

 

Quite bizarre, it's the only one I thought I was sure on.