He would almost certainly fail without a woman dead and gone

[Tommatt]

So I was reading another thread, and this viewing popped into my head. We have always assumed it means moraine, but with the end of ToM could it be Lanfear? With the woman who is dead and gone Mierin. She originally created the bore, and whlie far gone to the shadow, would rather destroy the dark one and rule as well. I don't think its likely, but has anyone ever put any thought into this? I believe the end of ToM is some sort of trap, but maybe not.

[Suttree]

I find it very hard to believe that Min wouldn't have thought about the forsaken aspect if it referred to Lanfear. It almost certainly was Moiraine.

[Ala Rubra]

I believe that that is quite possible, but pretty much everyone else here would tell you that it's highly improbable that Min could have possibly been referring to anyone other than Moiraine.

 

 

 

I find it very hard to believe that Min wouldn't have thought about the forsaken aspect if it referred to Lanfear. It almost certainly was Moiraine.

 

Your assumption here being that Min even knew who the viewing referred to in the first place.

[Suttree]

I find it very hard to believe that Min wouldn't have thought about the forsaken aspect if it referred to Lanfear. It almost certainly was Moiraine.

 

Your assumption here being that Min even knew who the viewing referred to in the first place.

 

Yeah that is true and I thought about that. I don't think it was just some symbolic picture of a generic dead woman however. I'm not totally closing my mind to the idea, just going with what I think is most likely.

[aross]

It's Moiraine. Read the passage more closely and try to think a little less like a Talmudic Rabbi.

[Terez]

It was Moiraine. Just after that she said that Moiraine was the *only* viewing of hers that ever failed. That's how we knew it was Moiraine.

[kght22]

one of min's earliest viewings was about moiraine having to be at the last battle for rand to win. and at the time where she has the thought about the woman who is dead and gone min believed moiraine to be dead, she had no more evidence than that everyone except thom at that point thought she was dead.

 

many, like me suspect that min is where moiraine learned that she would marry thom from, and is why moiraine didn't believe that thom was dead in the eye of the world. it would also explain the failed viewing, because the viewing about the last battle wasn't a certainty that she would be there, but a viewing about who she will marry would have been absolute.

[FarShainMael]

I'm in the Lanfear camp on this one, and have been for some time. Min's Viewing was of a dead woman. Moiraine was alive at the time; it was Lanfear who was dead. Min wouldn't have had any conscious knowledge of that, but that would be irrelevant to the Viewing ability. She has had many viewings whose meaning she did not know immediately.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm in the Lanfear camp on this one, and have been for some time. Min's Viewing was of a dead woman. Moiraine was alive at the time; it was Lanfear who was dead. Min wouldn't have had any conscious knowledge of that, but that would be irrelevant to the Viewing ability. She has had many viewings whose meaning she did not know immediately.

 

Actually, it wasn't clear. Min may have viewed a "dead woman" but that's not what it says. In fact it suggests the opposite, that she knew the woman, and thought she was dead. However, it could be either.

 

 

She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?

 

 

 

 

Then a few pages later we get this.

 

Min sighed regretfully, but it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.

 

I suppose it is open to possibility, I won't say that it is certain, but it is at least 90%.

 

Also, if she viewed Lanfear specifically, she would hardly have thought as she did. It would be more like "How on earth was one of the Forsaken going to help Rand." etc...

 

The only possibility is if it was as FSM said, that Min had a viewing of a "dead woman" who she had no idea who it was, but thought it strange and impossible that any dead person could be of help.

 

Edit: Also, Lanfear is resurrected at this point. Moridin holds both Mindtraps in aCoS : 25. Min brings this up in aCoS 35. Moridin tells Moggy that she had been in a vaculoe only two days, so it is definitely before Rand's visit to the rebels.

[True Source Creator]

As much as I would like it to be about Lanfear, it seems obvious it must be about Moiraine. Otherwise, what the hell was the point in bringing her back from Finnland in the first place?

[FarShainMael]

@bbm: Yes, Lanfear is resurrected when Min thinks about that vierwing, but we don't know when she actually had the viewing itself.

 

@tsc: As several have pointed out, Lanfear/Cyndane knows how the Bore was made - and therefore probably knows how to un-make it.

[Naggash]

As much as I would like it to be about Lanfear, it seems obvious it must be about Moiraine. Otherwise, what the hell was the point in bringing her back from Finnland in the first place?

She said in the note 'and I may yet have a role to play'. Min's viewing being about Lanfear doesn't make Moraine less important.

I'm in the Moraine-view camp, but I can see that the other is very possible as well. After all we have the forshadowing of Lanfear asking Rand for help in his dream.

[kght22]

As much as I would like it to be about Lanfear, it seems obvious it must be about Moiraine. Otherwise, what the hell was the point in bringing her back from Finnland in the first place?

She said in the note 'and I may yet have a role to play'. Min's viewing being about Lanfear doesn't make Moraine less important.

I'm in the Moraine-view camp, but I can see that the other is very possible as well. After all we have the forshadowing of Lanfear asking Rand for help in his dream.

min has no viewing that has been mentioned about lanfear/mieren/cyandane. she does have a viewing that is known that means rand might not win the last battle if moiraine is not there. moiraine about as blatantly as an aes sedai can say that thom wasn't dead during the eye of the world. there is only ONE way that she could say that, because she, nyn and lan would have had no reason to assume that, and moved through whitebridge far too fast to learn the truth, they walked right through. moiraine already knew that she would marry thom, so he couldn't be dead.

 

the failed viewing was that moiraine never married thom, that is the failed viewing. the only viewing about moir at the lastbattle was a possibility, if she isn't there rand might not be able to win at tarmon'gaidon. she thought that moiraine was dead. reread if you doubt this. she was certain that moiraine was dead, and that meant that one of her viewings failed, because moiraine and thom never got a chance to get married. keep in mind that if min saw two random people who had never actually met each other before, or even when she saw them, and she saw that aura, there was no question, they would be married, the point of that is hammered home about her ability. there is NOTHING to suggest that she is talking about lanfear, and while rj loved checkhov's gun he wasn't one to introduce something blind. moiraine learned that she would marry thom from min back in the eye of the world when they were together, and she like any intelligent individual well versed in the game would to put herself in the position that she needed to be in, including separating herself from thom. she made damn certain that she could meet the other bit that min had to say; that she had to be at the last battle for him to have a chance. or at least a better chance. min when she thinks those things believes that she is dead, (and she speaks of no specific viewing at the time, and the only viewing involved in the chapter has to do with her) this is a massive checkhov's gun and if you cant see it, i think you need to read it more.

[kght22]

and don't get me wrong, there is still room for lanfear to end up helping the light, but it is not in this.

[muddasssir]

It was Moiraine. Just after that she said that Moiraine was the *only* viewing of hers that ever failed. That's how we knew it was Moiraine.

ok I am going out on a limb here but I have always thought that min's viewing about moiraine had to do something with thom there is no textual evidence except one obscure line in tSR when she sends him after elayne and nynaeve and promises him that she will see him again and that he knows that she cannot lie. So, dead woman could be mierin never could get the spellings right on that one lol

[Terez]

That's some pretty loopy logic, no matter how you look at it.

[kght22]

It was Moiraine. Just after that she said that Moiraine was the *only* viewing of hers that ever failed. That's how we knew it was Moiraine.

ok I am going out on a limb here but I have always thought that min's viewing about moiraine had to do something with thom there is no textual evidence except one obscure line in tSR when she sends him after elayne and nynaeve and promises him that she will see him again and that he knows that she cannot lie. So, dead woman could be mierin never could get the spellings right on that one lol

further evidence is that she said with certainty that she knew the man that she would marry better than any of the wondergirls. something that she said with an odd ammount of certainty.

[Durinax]

I would like it to be Lanfear. Without the time or Moraine being explicitely linked to this viewing I would say we cannot tell 100%

[kght22]

I would like it to be Lanfear. Without the time or Moraine being explicitely linked to this viewing I would say we cannot tell 100%

explain, how is she not explicetely linked to this, and if not what viewing are you talking about?

[Durinax]

I would like it to be Lanfear. Without the time or Moraine being explicitely linked to this viewing I would say we cannot tell 100%

explain, how is she not explicetely linked to this, and if not what viewing are you talking about?

the "you will fail without a woman dead and gone" viewing. Nothing mentions Moraine, the only thing mentioning her is a quote from a short time later, which IMO does not create a connection between them strong enough to discount other possibilities

[Terez]

It connects her strong enough because Min said it was the *only* viewing that ever failed. And as has been pointed out, the 'dead woman' logic doesn't work either; it's doubtful Lanfear was dead for very long, assuming she died at all.

[kght22]

I would like it to be Lanfear. Without the time or Moraine being explicitely linked to this viewing I would say we cannot tell 100%

explain, how is she not explicetely linked to this, and if not what viewing are you talking about?

the "you will fail without a woman dead and gone" viewing. Nothing mentions Moraine, the only thing mentioning her is a quote from a short time later, which IMO does not create a connection between them strong enough to discount other possibilities

words have nothing to do with min's viewings. that was simply her thoughts, about a viewing she had in the past.

[kght22]

I would like it to be Lanfear. Without the time or Moraine being explicitely linked to this viewing I would say we cannot tell 100%

explain, how is she not explicetely linked to this, and if not what viewing are you talking about?

the "you will fail without a woman dead and gone" viewing. Nothing mentions Moraine, the only thing mentioning her is a quote from a short time later, which IMO does not create a connection between them strong enough to discount other possibilities

i mean realy? that isn't a viewing. it isnt a prophecy, it is just a thought on a previous viewing. it is her later interpretation on some previous viewing.

 

the only time she is 100% accurate is when she sees it and understands it, above the person's head, or at least around the person's head. her later thoughts are as accurate as cadsuane's are.

 

i am still jaw dropped that people don't understand what min does.

[kght22]

I would like it to be Lanfear. Without the time or Moraine being explicitely linked to this viewing I would say we cannot tell 100%

explain, how is she not explicetely linked to this, and if not what viewing are you talking about?

the "you will fail without a woman dead and gone" viewing. Nothing mentions Moraine, the only thing mentioning her is a quote from a short time later, which IMO does not create a connection between them strong enough to discount other possibilities

it is that he might fail, although min did exactly what a human might do, embellished. if moiraine is not at the last battle rand might fail. there is no certainty that he will fail is she isn't there. the only certainty is that he might fail if she isn't there. and there isn't even a certainty that he will succeed if she is, but he has a much better chance if she is there. and little chance if she isn't. please read the first 3 books about 5 more times. the two after at least twice more

[Durinax]

I am saying that without the original words to the viewing we cannot 100% say it was referring to Mierin or Moraine

 

"What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"

 

it is a retroactive look at it.

 

But I think she may have told Moraine about her and Thom because of how she thinks and refers to him, so that could be the 'failed' viewing.

 

Also drunken frog I understand as much as we can what min's ability does. Also I do not have time to reread certain books that many times, the 2-4 times I have will have to suffice because I cannot read them too many times due to being able to remember nearly all that happens, it just loses its excitement for me until a long period of time has elapsed.