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SparrowHawk

Understanding Perrin

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He only thinks he will lose himself. ToM shows it was a choice to go feral by that guy. rand's gift is less his ta'vereness and more his extreme channelling ability, which is far more likely to destroy him than being a wolfbrother is to Perrin.

He was wrong when thinking that the mere contact with the wolves would make him lose himself, but he still needs to find that balance. That is for certain. If he didn't find it he would become just like Noam (?¿ I think that was the name) eventually, or lose himself in another way I don't know. Elyas sais that he had had the same problem, but that he had found his balance.

And maybe Rand was in more risk pre-cleanse but that's not the point.

I never said that Rand and Mat didn't have their own problems, I only said that, from my PoV, the one with less help (understood as abilities too) and resources to do what he had to do was Perrin.

 

Perrin had Elyas and Hopper from the start (TEotW). Rand started getting help only after Asmodean was bound to him (TSR, I think). Perrin had the tools to help him right from the start; whereas Rand didn't have them till much later. And that is not counting his unbelievable sense of smell that picks up complex emotions rather accurately. He's got a few tools Mat and Rand don't have.

Edited by Theodril

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Perrin I feel it the one who has done so little with so much. Even though all the players have issues that Dr Phil couldn't figure out. Perrin is the one who doesn't want to be what he is. He fights it all the time. Only accomplishes anything when he is forced to do so because it is the only choice left.

 

All that being said, his parts of the books are still better than some of the girls parts. I do believe BS is better at writing women than RJ was. Because the women parts of the books now are tolerable compared to the parts were Egwene and Elayne were in the tower as Accepted.

 

That's funny because didn't BS say that the Egwene parts are mostly RJ with a little BS?

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He only thinks he will lose himself. ToM shows it was a choice to go feral by that guy. rand's gift is less his ta'vereness and more his extreme channelling ability, which is far more likely to destroy him than being a wolfbrother is to Perrin.

He was wrong when thinking that the mere contact with the wolves would make him lose himself, but he still needs to find that balance. That is for certain. If he didn't find it he would become just like Noam (?¿ I think that was the name) eventually, or lose himself in another way I don't know. Elyas sais that he had had the same problem, but that he had found his balance.

And maybe Rand was in more risk pre-cleanse but that's not the point.

I never said that Rand and Mat didn't have their own problems, I only said that, from my PoV, the one with less help (understood as abilities too) and resources to do what he had to do was Perrin.

 

Perrin had Elyas and Hopper from the start (TEotW). Rand started getting help only after Asmodean was bound to him (TSR, I think). Perrin had the tools to help him right from the start; whereas Rand didn't have them till much later. And that is not counting his unbelievable sense of smell that picks up complex emotions rather accurately. He's got a few tools Mat and Rand don't have.

Lol? Rand had Moraine from the start if the argument comes down to that. I would much appreciate if you tell me what tool you're talking about. And his sense of smell while useful can't compare in campaign efectiveness with channeling or memories that make you equal to a Great Captain. Imo.

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He only thinks he will lose himself. ToM shows it was a choice to go feral by that guy. rand's gift is less his ta'vereness and more his extreme channelling ability, which is far more likely to destroy him than being a wolfbrother is to Perrin.

He was wrong when thinking that the mere contact with the wolves would make him lose himself, but he still needs to find that balance. That is for certain. If he didn't find it he would become just like Noam (?¿ I think that was the name) eventually, or lose himself in another way I don't know. Elyas sais that he had had the same problem, but that he had found his balance.

And maybe Rand was in more risk pre-cleanse but that's not the point.

I never said that Rand and Mat didn't have their own problems, I only said that, from my PoV, the one with less help (understood as abilities too) and resources to do what he had to do was Perrin.

 

Perrin had Elyas and Hopper from the start (TEotW). Rand started getting help only after Asmodean was bound to him (TSR, I think). Perrin had the tools to help him right from the start; whereas Rand didn't have them till much later. And that is not counting his unbelievable sense of smell that picks up complex emotions rather accurately. He's got a few tools Mat and Rand don't have.

Lol? Rand had Moraine from the start if the argument comes down to that. I would much appreciate if you tell me what tool you're talking about. And his sense of smell while useful can't compare in campaign efectiveness with channeling or memories that make you equal to a Great Captain. Imo.

 

It is precisely channeling that I am talking about vs. Perrin's wolf ability. Rand didn't have any teacher or guide on channeling till Asmodean came along; whereas Perrin had Elyas and then Hopper from the start to guide him. Perrin's denial and unwillingness to learn are what held him back; but the tools were there.

 

As to his sense of smell, I think it is one of the most powerful traits that make Perrin formidable. He can sense the true feelings of a person speaking to him. He is the only who could sense people's true feelings in the books. Not a shabby advantage!

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sorry to rewind the discussion back to my original rant, but here it is:

the reason why faile is so bad is not because she has no redeeming qualities, but because she is psycotic. she creates problems for fun so they can have something to argue over. she never tells him what he did wrong (and that is something all women can improve on) oh and most of the time she blames him for things he didnt do. The reality is unlike nynaeve (whose char improved recently) I can't see ever liking faile's character.

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I dont think theres anything wrong with Perrin. Alright his plot lines dragged on for about 3 books ( 7 to 10 ) but you can say the same about Rand' ( PoD ) and Mat' ( Ebou Dari ). Though he's probably my least favorite of the Two Rivers lads, that only because i like Mat and Rand so much. I think he comes alive again in KoD and is at his best in ToM.

As for who has had the most help debate, I think they all got equal conveniant helping hands (Ta'vereness ) Rand with his LTT memories, Mat and his luck. I think to argue who the cards fell kinder for is pretty pointless.

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He only thinks he will lose himself. ToM shows it was a choice to go feral by that guy. rand's gift is less his ta'vereness and more his extreme channelling ability, which is far more likely to destroy him than being a wolfbrother is to Perrin.

He was wrong when thinking that the mere contact with the wolves would make him lose himself, but he still needs to find that balance. That is for certain. If he didn't find it he would become just like Noam (?¿ I think that was the name) eventually, or lose himself in another way I don't know. Elyas sais that he had had the same problem, but that he had found his balance.

And maybe Rand was in more risk pre-cleanse but that's not the point.

I never said that Rand and Mat didn't have their own problems, I only said that, from my PoV, the one with less help (understood as abilities too) and resources to do what he had to do was Perrin.

 

Perrin had Elyas and Hopper from the start (TEotW). Rand started getting help only after Asmodean was bound to him (TSR, I think). Perrin had the tools to help him right from the start; whereas Rand didn't have them till much later. And that is not counting his unbelievable sense of smell that picks up complex emotions rather accurately. He's got a few tools Mat and Rand don't have.

Lol? Rand had Moraine from the start if the argument comes down to that. I would much appreciate if you tell me what tool you're talking about. And his sense of smell while useful can't compare in campaign efectiveness with channeling or memories that make you equal to a Great Captain. Imo.

 

It is precisely channeling that I am talking about vs. Perrin's wolf ability. Rand didn't have any teacher or guide on channeling till Asmodean came along; whereas Perrin had Elyas and then Hopper from the start to guide him. Perrin's denial and unwillingness to learn are what held him back; but the tools were there.

 

As to his sense of smell, I think it is one of the most powerful traits that make Perrin formidable. He can sense the true feelings of a person speaking to him. He is the only who could sense people's true feelings in the books. Not a shabby advantage!

Well, I get your point. I keep my ground though. I still think that Perrin was the one with less resources to do what he had to, but well it's just an opinion and it seems like I won't persuade you :P

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Well, I get your point. I keep my ground though. I still think that Perrin was the one with less resources to do what he had to, but well it's just an opinion and it seems like I won't persuade you :P

 

By resources, do you mean personal resources or other resources (soldiers, money, etc.)?

 

The 3 ta'veren have the following:

- Rand: powerful channeler, awesome sa'angreal, powerful ta'veren effect, remarkable and unexplained learning of weaves (probably attributed to LTT memories and/or divine intervention).

- Perrin: TAR, wolves, sense of smell, ta'veren effect

- Mat: Luck, battle memories, foxhead medallion, ta'veren effect

 

Perrin's huge disadvantage is Faile; but I won't get into that :tongue:

Edited by Theodril

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Demandred's comment about favorite ta'veren made me think of what my order for favorite is. It's close, but would probably be Perrin and rand tying for 1st, then Mat in second, lol.

I've heard before that the 3 Two Rivers boys are all part of RJ, it makes me wonder what he was like to talk to. I know I can be a little different depending on who I'm talking to, and for some reason, it's amusing to me to think of RJ with a personality like Mat, haha.

 

On the current topic, the 3 boy's growth and character development are all different from eachother, and their trials are the same way. If you could quantify the hardships they've had to face, I think it'd look something like this:

 

Rand: 1.) Finds out he's the DR; big responsibility, looming madness. 2.) Knows he'll die at Shayol Ghul, 3.) Loses Moiraine. 4.) The wounds in his side. 5.) Went through Dark Rand phase

 

Mat: 1.) Shadar Logoth dagger, sick until TDR. 2.) Lost memories 3.) Betrayed by DF Aiel girlfriend. 4.) Lopin, Nerim, Nalesean, and Tylin killed. 5.) Hanged, lost an eye, broke a leg, and never gets Healing for his battle scars

 

Perrin: 1.) Harried by Whitecloaks and accused of being shadowspawn 2.) Lost entire family, save for some distant cousin (why don't they bring that kid back into the story?) 3.) Internal struggle with losing himself to bloodlust and the wolf inside him 4.) Faile's capture 5.) Taken a few arrows to the knee 6.) Lost Hopper twice

 

So yeah, they're experiences are a bit different, they've all had their share of trials, that's for sure.

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Well, I get your point. I keep my ground though. I still think that Perrin was the one with less resources to do what he had to, but well it's just an opinion and it seems like I won't persuade you :P

 

By resources, do you mean personal resources or other resources (soldiers, money, etc.)?

 

The 3 ta'veren have the following:

- Rand: powerful channeler, awesome sa'angreal, powerful ta'veren effect, remarkable and unexplained learning of weaves (probably attributed to LTT memories and/or divine intervention).

- Perrin: TAR, wolves, sense of smell, ta'veren effect

- Mat: Luck, battle memories, foxhead medallion, ta'veren effect

 

Perrin's huge disadvantage is Faile; but I won't get into that :tongue:

Don't forget Rand's authority as DR :P

And yes, I meant that.

As I said, I think that being a Wolfbrother is awsome and a powerful talent, but tell me how did it help him with:

1) Dealing with Masema. Anyone could tell he was nuts without smelling it.

2) Dealing with Malden and therefore with the Seanchan.

3) Dealing with the WC, then with the trolloc assault. You could say it was important for him to know that Galad smelled 'better', but would it have changed something not to know that? Events would still have happened.

 

The only thing I can think as decisive is him taking care of the Dreamspike, a VERY important matter but Rand for example can enter TAR too. And Mat with his memories wouldn't have needed to destroy it, he would just smash those trollocs or WC or whatever it was.

As I said before, I don't say his talent wasn't useful, just that comparing, he is in quite a disadvantage from Mat or Rand.

Things that would have been quite easy for them, took a lot of effort from him because in the matters listed above his talent wasn't that useful.

Perrin kickass domain is TAR, and he is awsome there. But in the WW he is behind the others.

Edited by Naggash

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Directly helped him? Any time he interects with someone and they are put off balanced by him eyes. In the Two Rivers he couldn't of won without the dream and taking out Slayer there. Dumai's Wells he found Rand with the help of the wolves, following the Horn. Without his talent the world would of been lost atleast twice, if Mat wasn't lucky not much would be too different (aside from the Aiel woman not having an excuse to hook up with him the first time). Just because it hasn't helped him specifically during the kidnapping saga doesn't mean it is useless.

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Directly helped him? Any time he interects with someone and they are put off balanced by him eyes. In the Two Rivers he couldn't of won without the dream and taking out Slayer there. Dumai's Wells he found Rand with the help of the wolves, following the Horn. Without his talent the world would of been lost atleast twice, if Mat wasn't lucky not much would be too different (aside from the Aiel woman not having an excuse to hook up with him the first time). Just because it hasn't helped him specifically during the kidnapping saga doesn't mean it is useless.

Ok. As I said, I'm talking about the events listed above, not others.

That said, Mat's luck don't change anything? lol Please find me something he acomplished without his luck being involved, I really can't think of any. Could you say the same about Perrin's smell? And his eyes unsettling people hardly changed anything.

Don't missunderstand. I already said that Wolfbrothers are awsome, but my whole point was that if Perrin wasn't the way he is, meticulous, thorough, etc, he wouldn't have been nearly as succesful in his tasks because his talent didn't really help much in it. And again, I'm talking about the tasks he was doing for Rand, not other things. You can't take one of my posts alone and take it as base for an argument, when they are in the context of a larger conversation.

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Mat's luck is always involved, the same way that Perrin's sense of smell is. I am suggesting that his luck tends to be for more mundane things rather that the huge things he is involved in. The only world changing thing his luck really was the only component of was saving Moiraine, anything else could of been accomplished without it at need. His memories are much more important grand scale than his luck, aside from where he takes risks he wouldn't if he didn't know it would always turn out in his favour.

 

Just taking the kidnapping saga and saying it didn't help him is wrong anyway. His eyes helped him get the forkroot, his connection with Elayas helped him find Malden, his sense of smell helped him not get ripped off by merchants. You could pick situations of with any character and say 'where was his/her talent of help here'.

 

And I still disagree that being a wolfbrother has any dangers associated with it at all. We know of 3, one who chose to go all the way wolf, one who chose to hang out with the wolves and one who chose to hang out with men. Perrin's assumption that the pull of the wolves would drive him insane and turn him into one of them isn't borne out by events at all.

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Just taking the kidnapping saga and saying it didn't help him is wrong anyway. His eyes helped him get the forkroot, his connection with Elayas helped him find Malden, his sense of smell helped him not get ripped off by merchants. You could pick situations of with any character and say 'where was his/her talent of help here'.

Look, the thing is this started when people said that they were tired of Perrin's personality or that it was boring or that RJ could have done it better. And I said that while Rand is the DR and has his channeling to help him, and Mat has his memories and luck, if Perrin didn't have that personality he wouldn't have been able to succeed despite being a Wolfbrother, because he can't sweep aside everything he wants like rubbish nor he can plan a war campaign that always turns lucky on his side. He had his own advatages but with another personality he would have fail. And that's my opinion. Only wanted you to know what was this all about. I respect yout point of view and I can see where it comes from but I have my own.

 

And I still disagree that being a wolfbrother has any dangers associated with it at all. We know of 3, one who chose to go all the way wolf, one who chose to hang out with the wolves and one who chose to hang out with men. Perrin's assumption that the pull of the wolves would drive him insane and turn him into one of them isn't borne out by events at all.

Yes, you might be right there, though I'm beggining to think that you can't dismiss the danger with 'it was his own fault to think like that, he was wrong'. Ok, but being wrong doesn't change that it gave him more problems than help. So, yes, I think you're right. There was no danger, but Perrin thought so and that's what matters.

 

And this is my last post on the subject xD It's quite hard for me to explain myself in english. I don't find the words to explain myself better and I'm afraid what I try to say is not the same that you understand. I'm trying to speak about a personal opinion that comes from no evidence at all, it's just a 'feeling' from the books or well I don't even know how to say it. I could write a full esay in spanish about the matter explaining my thoughts thorougly but in english I would spend what, an hour? 2 hours maybe to write down all that comes to my mind that support my PoV. It's just impossible for me to summary it here with simple words. And believe me that I'm sorry for it, I like this discussions with people that knows a lot about the series like you, but there's a limit for me to express in english. Sooo last post on it. I made my point as clear as I could and I get yours so no reason for me to keep arguing over the same thing.

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I'm a proud introvert and I can relate to that side of Perrin. I dislike him because he shys away from responsibility.

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I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

 

Perrin doesnt want it, but in the end if gives in because while he doesnt want it he doesnt trust that anyone else could do it better than him.

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if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

 

This is how I've always thought of leadership as well.

It reminds me of the scene in Gladiator, when Maximus has been offered the role of Caesar, and says he doesn't want it. Marcus Aurelis replies, "That is why it must be you". Perrin doesn't shy away from responsibility, he just takes it seriously,

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I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

 

Perrin doesnt want it, but in the end if gives in because while he doesnt want it he doesnt trust that anyone else could do it better than him.

It's an old saying, the best leaders are those who have no desire to lead. It's all about power corrupting or what not.

 

But that's besides the point, he does shy away from it, and people die because of it. Yea eventually he came into it, but how much longer after Mat and Rand? Too damn long in my opinion.

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he does shy away from it, and people die because of it.

 

What instance are you referring to where people die because he doesn't want responsibility? To be fair, Rand kind of goes the other way at times. One instance was with Callandor in PoD (I know there's a flaw, but he still was kind of mad with power), and in TGS.

 

Trying to think of an instance where Mat is human and makes a mistake. Maybe that's why everyone likes him, he doesn't really ever make a big mistake, except for his crappy behavior in the first couple books? To me, characters seem better written when they're well rounded with many human traits, including the bad ones. A great example is Tavi from the Codex Alera series. The dude doesn't mess up in the whole six books, it's just unrealistic.

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I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

 

Perrin doesnt want it, but in the end if gives in because while he doesnt want it he doesnt trust that anyone else could do it better than him.

It's an old saying, the best leaders are those who have no desire to lead. It's all about power corrupting or what not.

 

But that's besides the point, he does shy away from it, and people die because of it. Yea eventually he came into it, but how much longer after Mat and Rand? Too damn long in my opinion.

I too am wondering who died because Perrin did not want to be a leader.

And for a fair portion of the book Rand was a horrible leader. I guess "Do as i say or i will Balefire you!" is a leadership technique.

And Mat is a completely different animal. He was the only one of the wonder boys who actually wanted to leave and he always put himself in the center of everything. He was born to be a leader.

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I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

 

Perrin doesnt want it, but in the end if gives in because while he doesnt want it he doesnt trust that anyone else could do it better than him.

It's an old saying, the best leaders are those who have no desire to lead. It's all about power corrupting or what not.

 

But that's besides the point, he does shy away from it, and people die because of it. Yea eventually he came into it, but how much longer after Mat and Rand? Too damn long in my opinion.

I too am wondering who died because Perrin did not want to be a leader.

And for a fair portion of the book Rand was a horrible leader. I guess "Do as i say or i will Balefire you!" is a leadership technique.

And Mat is a completely different animal. He was the only one of the wonder boys who actually wanted to leave and he always put himself in the center of everything. He was born to be a leader.

 

Matt never wanted to lead. He just took control because he understood quite quickly that he was best suited to it, and if he didn't some other idiot would take over.

 

Rand is a different beast, I don't consider him a horrible leader, he just couldn't run from it like Perrin did. Actually the do this or I'll kill you is a leadership technique, and he should have stuck with it. Rand's major issue is (Which Perrin and Matt don't experience) that people say they'll follow him and behind his back do everything to kill or discredit him. He has to use force because otherwise everything would crumble. Kinda sucks for him.

 

As for who died because of Perrin, Plently of unnamed characters died due to his mistakes and unwillingness to step up. I'm thinking in the Two River's battles, and later with his Faiel kidnapping. He did pretty damn good saving Rand from the sisters, I don't think any people died because of him then, but he took command, and told people what to do (first time).

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I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

 

Perrin doesnt want it, but in the end if gives in because while he doesnt want it he doesnt trust that anyone else could do it better than him.

It's an old saying, the best leaders are those who have no desire to lead. It's all about power corrupting or what not.

 

But that's besides the point, he does shy away from it, and people die because of it. Yea eventually he came into it, but how much longer after Mat and Rand? Too damn long in my opinion.

I too am wondering who died because Perrin did not want to be a leader.

And for a fair portion of the book Rand was a horrible leader. I guess "Do as i say or i will Balefire you!" is a leadership technique.

And Mat is a completely different animal. He was the only one of the wonder boys who actually wanted to leave and he always put himself in the center of everything. He was born to be a leader.

 

Matt never wanted to lead. He just took control because he understood quite quickly that he was best suited to it, and if he didn't some other idiot would take over.

 

Rand is a different beast, I don't consider him a horrible leader, he just couldn't run from it like Perrin did. Actually the do this or I'll kill you is a leadership technique, and he should have stuck with it. Rand's major issue is (Which Perrin and Matt don't experience) that people say they'll follow him and behind his back do everything to kill or discredit him. He has to use force because otherwise everything would crumble. Kinda sucks for him.

 

As for who died because of Perrin, Plently of unnamed characters died due to his mistakes and unwillingness to step up. I'm thinking in the Two River's battles, and later with his Faiel kidnapping. He did pretty damn good saving Rand from the sisters, I don't think any people died because of him then, but he took command, and told people what to do (first time).

 

Maybe i should reread the books again (7 times doesnt seem to be enough) but i seem to recall that Perrin led the defenders of the Two Rivers and they won that battle. And people loved him so much after that they made him a Lord whether he wanted to be one or not. Did people die, yes they did, because Trollics and Fades are pretty bad ass and people die when you fight such things.

 

I also seem to recall Perrin leading his group to rescue Faile and they won that battle as well. Did people die, yes, because Aiel are pretty bad ass and people die when you fight them. I also recall his group being much more together and looking to him more as a leader after that battle.

You can say he did it for the wrong reason if you want, that people didnt need to die just to save Faile, but you cant say that the Shaido didnt deserve the butt woopin they got. And to give that many Aiel the butt woopin they deserve people are going to die on both sides.

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