not sure if its been thought of but an issue with the three oaths.

[Thrasymachus]

I assume everybody here's talking about when Moiraine had just earned the Shawl and fled to the Borderlands to begin her search for the DR? At this point, she's already started slowing, so she looks young enough to be sent to the Tower, and she'd not yet acquired the ageless look, and she was one of the strongest female channelers the WT had seen in a long time. On top of that, she's actively concealing the fact that she's Aes Sedai. Of course any other Aes Sedai she encounters who don't know her are gonna be interested and persistent in getting her to go to the White Tower. But it's important to realize what didn't happen. None of the Aes Sedai she met knocked her on the head or tied her up and sent her back there. And it's not just because she was "too old." First, she didn't look it, and second, the age limit rule has always been the one most laxly enforced. Obviously, they wouldn't have accepted someone like Sharina, but they did accept Nynaeve, and she was technically too old.

 

I think the Aes Sedai's view on this is one predominantly concerned with public safety and the public image of female channelers. They're most interested in getting to the girls who will Spark, but haven't started channeling yet, in order to get them over that hurdle without killing themselves or anybody else. Then they want the girls who can learn to channel and have decent potential, though there's no longer much of a concerted effort to find either one. They're not very interested in girls who can already channel because they've already passed the period of greatest danger, and because they've probably picked up habits and blocks that are a pain in the butt to deal with. If there's a decent amount of potential, then sure, they'll take 'em if they want to come. Otherwise, their only real concern is that the wilder doesn't try to pretend to be Aes Sedai or use the One Power in destructive or amoral ways. They don't go around looking for wilders to bring back for training.

[baalsmistress]

At least, not till the Egwene era :)

[yoniy0]

she looks young enough to be sent to the Tower [...] First, she didn't look it

Oh, they knew she's too old alright. One practically says it's not that big of a deal, since the rules have been bent before (there's even a little joke there, about the likelihood that Moiraine would lie about her age in order to be admitted, made by one of the pair who recognized her). This ties in with your later point about public safety. Obviously, those AS knew that Moiraine has already acquired a measure of control over saidar, and was no longer a danger to herself or others. They still wanted her.

 

But it's important to realize what didn't happen. None of the Aes Sedai she met knocked her on the head or tied her up and sent her back there.

No, they didn't, but coercion comes in many ways. The pressure was definitely on until everyone assumed Cadsuane has taken care of the issue, and had she not, and were Moiraine a simple noblewoman, there's little doubt in my mind that they'd have gotten their way, too. As is said time and time again, the Tower usually gets what the Tower wants.

[Thrasymachus]

Of course they wanted her. She was a powerful channeler and they could sense that potential. And they pressured her and tried to talk her into going. But they didn't force her, and they didn't leave her with no other choice. And there's no reason to believe it would ever have gotten that far. They gave Moiraine plenty of opportunity to run away from them if she wanted, and gave no indication of doing more than pestering her about it endlessly if she didn't go.

 

And look at how Moiraine treats Nynaeve. Nynaeve at the beginning was very reluctant to join up with the Aes Sedai, and Moiraine basically tell her she can do what she wants, but that she'll get the most out of her ability if she gets training from the White Tower and becomes Aes Sedai. In fact, she goes so far as to tell her that being a wilder would be looked down upon, though it might be overlooked because of her strength. She's not making a hard sell here, if anything, she's using reverse psychology, because it's inconceivable that Moiraine and the White Tower wouldn't want someone of Nynaeve's strength to join up. But they don't want anyone who doesn't want to join up for themselves, and they don't force anybody into Tower training except sparkers who are a danger to themselves or others.

[yoniy0]

Look at how Moiraine treats a woman who has the audacity to name her inn after the Amyrlin Seat. That's not Tower policy, it's prioritizing. The same holds with Nynaeve, she simply had too much on her plate right about then.

 

Regarding the other thing, we'll agree to disagree, then. We simply have very different definitions of what 'forcing' means, and neither of us can prove how that situation would've played out. Instead, shall we look at how Aviendha was handled (or should I say manhandled?) in Salidar?

[Thrasymachus]

Sure, because, ya know, Avi's due to be raised to be raised to the shawl any day now, except, oh wait, she's not. The only thing the Aes Sedai have ever done to a woman who could channel and was young enough to bypass the age limit with a bit of fudging is harass her. That's a long way off from forcing anybody to do anything. It's closer to your guidance counselor bugging you to apply to colleges.

[Naggash]

I think some people mistake AS harassing someone by them imposing their will to someone. It usually seems the same thing for the characters because, you know, who would contradict an AS? But as Thrasymachus sais, they don't bully girls into joining them.

[Thrasymachus]

Well, they'll bully 'em sure, but that's a long way off from abducting them, imprisoning them, forcing them into Novice Whites, and keeping them under guard until their spirit's broken and they're sure they won't run away. They don't even do this with sparkers pre-channeling, they just keep 'em till they're safe, then let 'em leave if they want. Not even the Aes Sedai who was demoted by Elaida was kept under guard, she ran away, and they didn't put in any effort to really find her. Only Egwene was treated that way, and she was more a political prisoner than anything else. The books are actually fairly clear on this. If you're a woman who can channel, and you don't want anything to do with the White Tower, then you don't have to. The White Tower may try to persuade you otherwise, but they've never forced anyone to become an Aes Sedai, and only forcibly take pre-channeling sparkers to the Tower for training. And we've never seen them do even that, they just say they do, rather like they say they find all the runaways, when, in truth, they appear to let most of them go.

[RandA lThor]

Ok so they wont committ a crime to get people of age there, but they will harass them.

[Naggash]

And you have to realize that they only do so to protect them. They make sure the girls learn enough, bullying them or whatever it takes, but once they determin they're no longer a threat, they may "insist strongly" if the girls are strong or talented but nothing more. They never break the law.

[RandA lThor]

And you have to realize that they only do so to protect them. They make sure the girls learn enough, bullying them or whatever it takes, but once they determin they're no longer a threat, they may "insist strongly" if the girls are strong or talented but nothing more. They never break the law.

 

they don't break the law, but they don't take people like Nynaeve in to help her survive, she already knows how to control it without dying, so she is fine

[Suttree]

And you have to realize that they only do so to protect them. They make sure the girls learn enough, bullying them or whatever it takes, but once they determin they're no longer a threat, they may "insist strongly" if the girls are strong or talented but nothing more. They never break the law.

 

they don't break the law, but they don't take people like Nynaeve in to help her survive, she already knows how to control it without dying, so she is fine

 

Nynaeve up until recently was the most powerful channeler the WT had seen. You can not base anything of her situation as it was entirely unique.The underlying point people are making about AS is absolutely correct. Not sure why some posters continue to split hairs. As for protecting people if anything they have done far too poor a job. They are not overzealous in seeking people out by any stretch of the imagination.

[Thrasymachus]

Um, kidnapping, like most laws, is only a crime if there is someone to make and enforce that law. Who would possibly stop the White Tower if they did go around abducting young female channelers and brainwashing them to become Aes Sedai? I have little doubt that they do forcibly abduct pre-channeling sparkers whenever they find them and they show a marked reluctance to join of their own free will. But they have never been shown to be anything more than really annoying to women who can already channel. Only sparkers are forced into Novice Whites, and they're only kept there until they're sure the woman is safe if she really wants to leave. Nobody is forced to take the Accepted test, and nobody is forced to take the test for the Shawl or to swear the Oaths. These other organizations of channelers avoid the White Tower for much the same reasons that mothers in Randland try to keep their kids away from the Tinkers. The Tinkers don't force the kids to join them, they just don't turn 'em away and the kids rarely choose to leave after they join up. Same thing with the channelers, once they join, they rarely choose to leave, and if they do, nobody really tries to stop them with anything other than words.

[RandA lThor]

well, we haven't seen any other cases like that

[Thrasymachus]

But that's exactly the point. Look at Sharina. She has a potential greater than Nynaeve's, and if anything, the traditionalist Aes Sedai don't want her. She hadn't even started to channel until she put on the Whites. There's several POVs of Aes Sedai who internally express the desire for Sharina and all the Novices like her to just go away. Just because she's, what, a quarter of Cadsuane's age when she joins, if that? Granted, she's a learner, not a sparker or wilder, but still, it speaks to the fact that the Tower is not all that self-interested in other women who can channel, or even women who can learn to channel, as long as they're not giving the White Tower and other female channelers a bad name.

 

And Nynaeve's admission was not that special a case. She wasn't that much older than the cutoff, and there was precedent of others who were older than her being admitted, though their true age was usually only discovered after they attained the Shawl. Neither is it uncommon for the White Tower to accept wilders if they want to join. But we have never seen the White Tower force any wilder to join. Accept? sure. Strongly encourage? Absolutely when it's warranted. Bully, intimidate, and manipulate your friends and family into supporting your joining up? I have no doubt. But never Shield her, put her in a bag, and ship her by Warder express to the Novice quarters.

[Naggash]

I don't know why you keep arguing if you agree that AS don't break the law. They train the girls until they aren't a threat and then they're free to stay or leave. You're all agreeing on that so what's the discussion about anymore?

Nynaeve WANTED to enroll in the WT and she was allowed because she wasn't much older than the limit and also because of Moraine.

So, I think the controversy has ended.

[yoniy0]

Sure, because, ya know, Avi's due to be raised to be raised to the shawl any day now, except, oh wait, she's not.

Oh, and that had nothing to do with her friends protecting her? You might want to take another look at Mat's thoughts (he seemed to be drawing on his familiarity with AS, which could only come from his memories), but regardless, this is the reason they let her be:

A single question sufficed to learn where she was being held. Not held in name, but Elayne knew how Aes Sedai could be when they wanted a woman to become a novice.

"She will be in white by nightfall," Akarrin said confidently. A slim Brown, she nodded for emphasis with almost every word. The two sisters with her nodded just as surely.

[...]

"I'm sorry," Elayne told the room smoothly, "but I must take her away from you for a little while. Perhaps you can talk to her later."

Several of the sisters hesitated on the brink of protest, though there should have been none.

[...]

In the street, Elayne said, "I apologize for that. I'll see it does not happen again."

Again, it boils down to the difference between forcibly detaining someone and other types of coercion. Sure, if you had the presence of mind to resist, you could be put out at the end of you Novicehood, but having that option doesn't change the fact that you'd have to be willing to be branded a quitter, and that after years of being exposed to the Tower's ethos. It's kin to the way one can drop out of boot-camp. Sure, you could do the walk of shame, but there's definitely pressure there not to (I'm sorry, I'm not American, and I have no real idea how your/their army works, but I think I've heard that one can do so).

 

They are not overzealous in seeking people out by any stretch of the imagination.

No, they are not. That's a different issue from what they do with the ones they do fine, though.

[Thrasymachus]

Elayne "rescued" Avi to keep the Aes Sedai from bothering her, not because she was afraid they would succeed in getting her to put on the Novice Whites. But at the end of the day, that's all they were doing: bothering her. If it were a matter of them forcing wilders to join, or giving them no other choice, then Aviendha would have already been in Novice Whites. Are they persistent in badgering the women they want to join to join? Sure, and once they're in, they certainly do make it seem like a failure to leave, especially if they want the woman to stay. But they don't force anybody except pre-channeling sparkers to put on Novice Whites. There are no examples of it occurring and several examples of them restraining themselves to mere badgering and cajoling.

[Terez]

Ok so they wont committ a crime to get people of age there, but they will harass them.

 

And only if 1) they are young enough (which would logically disqualify at least 75% of wilders) and 2) strong enough to be worth bothering with, like Moiraine and Aviendha.

[sleepinghour]

And look at how Moiraine treats Nynaeve. Nynaeve at the beginning was very reluctant to join up with the Aes Sedai, and Moiraine basically tell her she can do what she wants, but that she'll get the most out of her ability if she gets training from the White Tower and becomes Aes Sedai. In fact, she goes so far as to tell her that being a wilder would be looked down upon, though it might be overlooked because of her strength. She's not making a hard sell here, if anything, she's using reverse psychology, because it's inconceivable that Moiraine and the White Tower wouldn't want someone of Nynaeve's strength to join up. But they don't want anyone who doesn't want to join up for themselves, and they don't force anybody into Tower training except sparkers who are a danger to themselves or others.

 

Moiraine never told her that she'd be looked down upon for being a wilder; it was Verin who revealed that in TGH after Nynaeve had already agreed to go to the Tower. Moiraine spent a lot of time trying to talk Nynaeve into going to the Tower in TEotW, also intentionally goading her in TGH ("Or have you decided to forgo Tar Valon yourself? If your own use of the Power is not schooled, you will never be able to use it against me.”). However, Nynaeve's a unique case because of her strength; if she had been a weak or middling strength wilder, they probably wouldn't have cared much about her. Nynaeve herself thinks that if she hadn't agreed to go, the Aes Sedai would have forced her.

 

Elayne was soothing Areina and Nicola, explaining that they would not be hurt, or forced into anything. Nynaeve would not have gone so far. When Aes Sedai found someone with the spark born in her like Elayne or Egwene, someone who would channel eventually whether she wanted to or not, they were quite open about bundling her into training whatever her wishes. They seemed more lenient about those who could be trained but would never touch saidar without it, and about wilders, those who had survived the one-in-four chance of teaching themselves, usually without knowing what they had done and often blocked in some way, as Nynaeve was. Supposedly they could choose to come or stay. Nynaeve had chosen to enter the Tower, but she suspected that if she had not, she still would have gone, perhaps even tied hand and foot. Aes Sedai gave women who had the smallest chance of joining them as much choice as a lamb on a feastday.

[Thrasymachus]

Which is clearly a POV of a woman who, in spite of her willingness to join them, is as prejudiced against Aes Sedai as Mat in her own way. In fact, she pretty explicitly says that the Aes Sedai don't force wilders to join them, even if they are persistent in trying to convince them. It's only her own fear and prejudice against Aes Sedai that makes her think otherwise. Nynaeve's internal POVs are notoriously structured this way. They start with an observation of fact and common sense that is undoubtedly true, then end with her feelings and suspicions that contradict that observation, often in a way that is hypocritical or hilariously self-serving or subjective.

[Knivy]

EDIT: Slow, sorry