not sure if its been thought of but an issue with the three oaths.

[wookiebear]

I believe the intent of the three oaths was to make people feel safer and trust the Aes Sedai. From statements within the books and from the wording of the oaths it seems they were envisioned as a governor and limitation on the power of the AS in the wider world. I think they were meant to show all the leaders and common people that the AS had nothing to hide and were working for the betterment of all.

 

In many ways the 3 oaths have had the opposite effect, making AS and non AS parse every word uttered by any AS to find the hidden truth or omitted lie. In a world where you cannot lie the questions you refuse to answer are as telling as the ones you do, and an intelligent questioner could ferret out secrets simply by know what questions those that cannot lie will not answer. The oaths have thereby forced the AS to chose words carefully and use obfuscation whenever possible to keep their secrets. It created a culture that promotes secrets and the non sharing of information, where everything is a zero sum game and all try to insure others don't have the information necessary to ask the right questions.

 

In this world the initial idea of the oaths was a good one, but the application of this idea has failed in intent and has fomented a culture of distrust that seems the bane of all in this world.

 

How many of the issues facing our characters would be lessened with just the sharing of information?

[Knivy]

In a world where even Verin is a dark friend, I wouldnt want to share my information more than I needed to either...

[Mhaliah]

What is in a name? I think they could say "My name is _____." The fact is that anything can be their name and they are not explicitly saying "My parents named me ____" or something to that effect. With the Oath for speaking the truth there is really more loophole than Oath.

[Naggash]

You know...I think we ALL would love....to see the Aes Sedai learn about a little thing called..."Lie by omission."

 

THAT would be EPIC :D

 

No more "Why would you do that?" +"So you can get killed later on brat...i mean....dont mess with Tower stuff boy"

AS are already aware of the concept, and use it frequently. It's at the heart of their subversion of the Oaths - they cannot speak words that are untrue, but they can leave out as many true words as they like.

 

I meant a reword of the Oath. No "won't speak word that is not true" but "won't tell lies". xD

It always irritates me all the chitchatt Egwene and Suan have about this matter. I mean, the 3 Oaths are what makes us AS? Don't make me laugh, the 3 OA were a fail or rather an intentionally flawed method to earn the trust of the people after the Breaking. If they're gonna do it they should do it right or limir it to the oaths about killing. The "won't speak word that is not true" oath is bullshit. AS were respected in the AoL for their social labour. How can they be so blind to this? What makes AS an AS is to be a servant of all, and therefore be active in improving the world as a better place and helping the people in it. But no they scheme, help 2 people they find in their way just because they begged them and continue on their sheming, always so fucking arrogant it makes me wanna tell BS to kill them all. Always thinking they must be in charge of everything and that they must be obeyd because noone knows better than them the way to go. Sure. When they've proven themselves so ignorant in many fields, when they've proven there's just as much stupid AS as stupid normal people out there. If they did what AS are meant to do, they wouldn't need to impose themselves, they would be obeid because people would truly know it was for their own good, and it would be true, for it would be their objetive in life.

 

Well, sorry for the babbling, i hope you understand half of it xD It's just ideas as they came nothing more, dont pay much attention :)

[Suttree]

AS were respected in the AoL for their social labour. How can they be so blind to this? What makes AS an AS is to be a servant of all, and therefore be active in improving the world as a better place and helping the people in it. But no they scheme, help 2 people they find in their way just because they begged them and continue on their sheming, always so fucking arrogant it makes me wanna tell BS to kill them all.

 

I am in total agreement that the WT as an institution has failed and fallen, in what is essentially a fallen world. What I'm not clear on is how you think they are not out making the world a better place and helping the people in it? The Yellows have eyes and ears that search out outbreaks of disease and the like and send sisters to heal(in addition to being able to go to the WT, and yes I understand setting up hospitals would be better), Greens guard with the Warders along the blight, Blues have their causes, Sisters saved the world in the Trolloc Wars, forge treaties, avert wars, etc. Bottom line is AS are like anyone else...some great, some average, some terrible. What people often forget to take into account is your average AS is out in the world working for the greater good. Every time we see a Sisters room in the WT they have mementos gathered from a long life lived doing so.

 

I think that one of Egwene's most crucial reforms was the channeler exchange program. Not only will all the groups gain a better understanding and trust but accepted will be forced to learn real world applications for their skills in working integrated with society. Within a couple generations this alone will have them moved much closer to their true purpose.

[Naggash]

I agree with you. I didn't mean that every AS was bad. You said well about the WT. Maybe I should have used another words but I'm not english and though I understand easlily everything you say it's not as easy to find the words for my own posts. Sorry for that.

I think I can clarify it a little saying that I agree with your "the WT as an institution has failed and fallen". I know there are lots of AS working out there, still it's their sheer arrogance what freaks me out.

Hope that is more understandable....

[Dagon Thyne]

I agree with you. I didn't mean that every AS was bad. You said well about the WT. Maybe I should have used another words but I'm not english and though I understand easlily everything you say it's not as easy to find the words for my own posts. Sorry for that.

I think I can clarify it a little saying that I agree with your "the WT as an institution has failed and fallen". I know there are lots of AS working out there, still it's their sheer arrogance what freaks me out.

Hope that is more understandable....

 

I nevered liked the White Tower because they know nothing about what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be. Too many of the WT feel that they are entitled to be treated like royalty because they are Aes Sedai. They act like rulers of the world, instead of the "servants of all" that they are supposed to be. What really annoys me is that they think they own the one power......They thnk that anyone who dares to use the OP without white tower permission should be ocnsidered a criminal, even though, in many cases, non-WT channelors are superior to Aes Sedai. For example, the Windfnders and Wise Ones know things and can do things that the WT forbids and considered imppossible,. simply because they are too stupid to do it.

[Naggash]

I nevered liked the White Tower because they know nothing about what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be. Too many of the WT feel that they are entitled to be treated like royalty because they are Aes Sedai. They act like rulers of the world, instead of the "servants of all" that they are supposed to be. What really annoys me is that they think they own the one power......They thnk that anyone who dares to use the OP without white tower permission should be ocnsidered a criminal, even though, in many cases, non-WT channelors are superior to Aes Sedai. For example, the Windfnders and Wise Ones know things and can do things that the WT forbids and considered imppossible,. simply because they are too stupid to do it.

 

I agree at most of it, but still as Suttry said, there're a lot of AS individuals that work for the best. We must not forget that.

But yeah, I share yout PoV.

[Suttree]

They thnk that anyone who dares to use the OP without white tower permission should be ocnsidered a criminal, even though, in many cases, non-WT channelors are superior to Aes Sedai. For example, the Windfnders and Wise Ones know things and can do things that the WT forbids and considered imppossible,. simply because they are too stupid to do it.

 

Not only is the criminal part wrong but the whole statement completely fails to take into account recent developments and reforms. The world is changing and Egwene knows this.

 

ToM

Egwene let out a soft, slow breath. It was remarkable to her, sometimes, how much stock she put in the opinions of these women. She took the stole, putting it around her shoulders.

 

"Sorilea will dislike this news," Bair said, shaking her head. "She still had a hope that you would leave those fools in the White Tower and return to us."

 

"Please take care," Egwene said, summoning herself a cup of tea. "I am not only one of those fools, my friend, but I am their leader. Queen of the fools, you might say."

 

Bair hesitated. "I have toh."

 

"Not for speaking the truth," Egwene assured her. "Many of them are fools, but are we not all fools at some point? You did not abandon me to my failures when you found me walking Tel'aran'rhiod. In like manner, I cannot abandon those of the White Tower."

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.

 

 

All of the channeling groups do certain things well and yet are lacking in other areas. This will change quickly now that they are connected as equals. In addition there are very specific reasons why pre knowledge of WOs & WFs, AS thought they needed to train and be involved each person who could channel. One of their greatest faults in my mind is not controlling(recruiting) this more so women all over the world who never came under WT scrutiny most likely died due to early channeling complications.

[Terez]

They thnk that anyone who dares to use the OP without white tower permission should be ocnsidered a criminal...

 

Not true. "There’s no law against channeling if you aren’t Aes Sedai, only against claiming to be Aes Sedai, or misusing the Power. Or bringing discredit."

[RandA lThor]

However, if they see someone channelling, they will probably try to bring them to the WT and try to help them get better.

[Suttree]

However, if they see someone channelling, they will probably try to bring them to the WT and try to help them get better.

 

As they should. It is their duty to do so in protecting people. If they don't have what it takes to be AS after they have been trained to not hurt themselves or others with the OP they are let go to live their lives however they like.

[RandA lThor]

Good point, however, they would have wanted to do that to Wise Ones and seafolk too even though they already know how to protect themselves.

[Suttree]

Good point, however, they would have wanted to do that to Wise Ones and seafolk too even though they already know how to protect themselves.

 

If it was just individual people from both cultures sure. However I'm not sure why you say that considering we have seen what happens once the AS have learned the extent of both groups existence? They forged a treaty in a sense with the exchange program and have joined the groups together as equals moving forward.

[RandA lThor]

Right, under Egwene, that's why i like her. previous Amyrlins and AS before Egwene, though, I am not that sure of.

[Knivy]

The WT doesnt give much choice to the channelers it finds, thats why the sea folk have to hide theirs. It has to do with keeping their power.

[Suttree]

The WT doesnt give much choice to the channelers it finds, thats why the sea folk have to hide theirs. It has to do with keeping their power.

 

You mean they previously did not give much choice? AS has been mentioned now that two entire cultures worth of channelers have emerged that has changed radically. Not to mention even previously women who could not attain the shawl are completely free to live whatever life they want after training.

[Thrasymachus]

It's not like they force channelers of sufficient power to become Aes Sedai anyway. Novices can refuse to take the Accepted test, and Accepted can refuse to take the test for the shawl. When and if they refuse, they are put out of the Tower, the same as if they lacked sufficient strength to be Aes Sedai in the first place. The testing scenes are clear on this. They may not have historically given much choice for women who can channel to be made Novices, but that's really rather understandable. It's a public safety issue.

[baalsmistress]

It's closer to say they have been remarkably vigilent in trying to force people to not become Aes Sedai. Preventing people that are over 18 from signing on as novices, having the penalty for failing a test being exile from the tower, rather than additional training. Being very less than vigilent when it comes to searching out potential.

 

It's small wonder the white tower has declined over the 3 millenia

[Terez]

However, if they see someone channelling, they will probably try to bring them to the WT and try to help them get better.

No one knew what Mistress Asher was, except the sisters. Many Aes Sedai disliked wilders, considering them a loss to the Tower, yet few went out of their way to make their lives difficult. A merchant in dark gray wool who wore only a red-enameled circle pin for jewelry, Mistress Asher dropped her eyes whenever a sister glanced at her, but they had no interest in her. Her gray hair ensured that.

[yoniy0]

That's because she's too old, and that alone. See how they practically fall over each other to force Moiraine into a white dress (they only stop because everyone assumes Cadsuane took care of that).

[Terez]

You can't pretend that the Tower always feels the need to get its hands on any woman who can channel, which is what we were actually discussing. Obviously many wilders are left alone. Did you intend to address that argument, or are you just arguing random points for the fun of it?

[yoniy0]

No pretense. The Tower puts very little effort into locating wilders, true, but individual AS will try their damnest to bring any wilder they meet of an appropriate age to the Tower. We've seen that not only with Moiraine (though that's definitely the most elaborate example we have), but also with Selene (Verin was very surprised that a Cairhien noble could've hidden from them). Granted, I can't prove that's why she'd expect to know of Selene, but I think my interpretation is sound.

 

RandAl Thor made the argument that they would pick any channeler they meet along the way, to which you responded with a quote indicating differently. I thought it worthwhile to clarify the terms under which his comment would actually be true. It's not about saving the girl, or rather not just about that. They would bring in someone Moiraine's age too, so obviously a part of it is wanting to see the Tower use these girls.

[Terez]

No pretense. The Tower puts very little effort into locating wilders, true, but individual AS will try their damnest to bring any wilder they meet of an appropriate age to the Tower.

 

The age restriction is enough to prove the point I made in the first place, so I'm not sure why it wasn't enough for you. But you're wrong:

 

"Do you really think she will learn your ways of weaving saidar?" Cadsuane asked, hiding her incredulity. Kiruna and the others had told her of these lessons, but many of the Wise Ones’ weaves were very different from those taught in the White Tower. The first way you learned the weave for a particular thing imprinted itself on you; learning a second was all but impossible, and even when you could learn, the second-learned weave almost never worked nearly as well. That was one reason some sisters did not welcome wilders to the Tower at any age; too much might have been learned already, and could not be unlearned.

[yoniy0]

Some. Some do. As opposed to the norm, otherwise it would've been more than just 'some'.