Nynaeve, the most arrogant character in WoT?

[muddasssir]

Come on sutt, are you seriously making this argument?

You'd better believe it............

1+ to you my man, but I still have hope for Sutt

[Vardar]

Forgot to add, love your take on things Mudd.

[FanoLan]

Come on sutt, are you seriously making this argument? I mean let us see, you do not like someone and you do not want to have him or her in your house. Is it too much to ask? Let us see if we can make a head or tale of it. It is Aleis’s place or palace right, she does not want to see the face of cads, right again. Now, Cads barges her way in and weasels out an invitation for herself. You say, it is not rude! You hate me and I am conniving a way to go live in your home and it is not rude, RGHT! Ok let us continue. You say Aleis was rude to her in her own house or council chamber in this case. It means, she cannot say what she wants to her and yet cads was entitled to mistreating Rand and she was not even rude. As for planning the encounter. This has been the whole point of Varadamus’s argument; he never denied her intelligence or her ability to plan. What he is saying is that she does whatever she wants to increases her power base. Although, I do not quite agree with this sentiment, but in this case that is what she is doing and it has nothing to do with helping Rand or anyone else. She is just doing it to show that she can. A classic trait of a bully. I will say again, I love the character of Cads, but this s her personality quirk. This s the beauty of the series, there are no Mary Sues, well except Eggy but she doesnot count now dos she?

 

Pretty sure you are still referencing how Cads treated Aleis in the bolded part above. If so, that's a sentiment with which I disagree. The only reason Cads is in Far Madding at all is because the Dragon Reborn is there, subject to the strictures of the Guardian and therefore as vulnerable as any other blademaster. The person upon whom the fate of the world rests is in a place where he is unable to channel so Cads plans on how best to be in a position to help him should the occasion arise. Her choice of companions and the wording of the agreement with the seafolk women were intentional and calculated to empower her so that she could best help the DR.

 

Look where he ended up because of his choices and the result of only that brief imprisonment. What if Cads was not there and had not prepared? Would the DR have forged his soul beyond redeeming if he was kept prisoner for,say, two weeks? What would have happened if Aleis actually negotiated with the WT and Elaida(Mesaana) got her hands on the DR again?

[shortkut]

Yay! A thread has devolved to arguing over the most pointless semantics

[David Selig]

When was the last time Nynaeve was mentioned in this thread? Five pages ago?

[Suttree]

Come on sutt, are you seriously making this argument?

You'd better believe it............

1+ to you my man, but I still have hope for Sutt

 

Actually it's the point our side has been making all along. Cadsuane is not inherently rude. You presented a situation in which Cads had a premeditated plan and her inclusion of an invite through the sea folk was part of that. In your first post you claimed she was rude here for no reason and that is unequivocally not the case. This was all part of the plan that culminated in her being in a position to save Rand. This whole section was made to show us how meticulous she is.

 

To say she was doing this only to show she can is somewhat shocking. Did the whole plan in this section of WH go completely over both of your heads? Then again considering the person giving you support in this thread is named after a character from bluntly written, glorified marketing materials made to sell more 50 sided dice it's not surprising that it would.

[muddasssir]

come on sutt you are getting personal and that is uncalled for, but if she had stayed at an inn everyone still would have known that she is in far madding and from what we have seen her reputation precedes her. So, if she had stayed at an inn she could have still effected the events as much as she did. I am sorry sutt, but there is exactly zero textual evidence of your contention.

[Vardar]

Actually it's the point our side has been making all along. Cadsuane is not inherently rude. You presented a situation in which Cads had a premeditated plan and her inclusion of an invite through the sea folk was part of that. In your first post you claimed she was rude here for no reason and that is unequivocally not the case. This was all part of the plan that culminated in her being in a position to save Rand. This whole section was made to show us how meticulous she is.

 

To say she was doing this only to show she can is somewhat shocking. Did the whole plan in this section of WH go completely over both of your heads? Then again considering the person giving you support in this thread is named after a character from bluntly written, glorified marketing materials made to sell more 50 sided dice it's not surprising that it would.

 

If she's not inherently rude, then what is she?

[Vardar]

Actually it's the point our side has been making all along. Cadsuane is not inherently rude. You presented a situation in which Cads had a premeditated plan and her inclusion of an invite through the sea folk was part of that. In your first post you claimed she was rude here for no reason and that is unequivocally not the case. This was all part of the plan that culminated in her being in a position to save Rand. This whole section was made to show us how meticulous she is.

 

To say she was doing this only to show she can is somewhat shocking. Did the whole plan in this section of WH go completely over both of your heads? Then again considering the person giving you support in this thread is named after a character from bluntly written, glorified marketing materials made to sell more 50 sided dice it's not surprising that it would.

 

If she's not inherently rude, then what is she?

[Suttree]

 

To be rude on Cad's level takes intelligence and forethought. Why would she waste that on someone she didn't have too? She wouldn't. Thus her treatment of cowed people. I've explained it again and again, you refuse to accept it.

 

The Crux of the argument is this, as I see it. You, Sultree and Luckers claim Cads is not rude, but what? Are you claiming she's a polite individual who employs rudeness when necessary?

 

No one said she is polite. In fact I assume such petty distinctions with the fate of the world on her shoulders matter little. What we are saying is what RJ said. Cads is a "remarkably adaptable" woman who uses a variety of tactics based on the situation.

[muddasssir]

well she expected nothing less from Rand and he had lot more riding on his shoulders then cads

[Suttree]

come on sutt you are getting personal and that is uncalled for, but if she had stayed at an inn everyone still would have known that she is in far madding and from what we have seen her reputation precedes her. So, if she had stayed at an inn she could have still effected the events as much as she did. I am sorry sutt, but there is exactly zero textual evidence of your contention.

 

 

No textual evidence? How did Fanolan just happen to reach the same conclusion then? Let me spell this out for you. Cads secured the inclusion through the sea folk ahead of time to gain entrance to the area with the guardian. From there Verin kicks the plan into action with the "man just channeled" quote which was a set up as it was their ashaman. This all culminated in them being able to save Rand. So yes, all of it had a very specific purpose. I suggest you reread the section. Honestly if you missed all of that you shouldn't even be debating this topic until you do.

 

When was the last time Nynaeve was mentioned in this thread? Five pages ago?

 

I guess the question has been answered then no? ;)

[Luckers]

To be clear, I never claimed Cadsuane was never rude. Cadsuane treats people the way their actions suggest they deserve to be treated, irrespective of their rank or whether its impolite.

 

I rather respect this about her.

[Vardar]

To be rude on Cad's level takes intelligence and forethought. Why would she waste that on someone she didn't have too? She wouldn't. Thus her treatment of cowed people. I've explained it again and again, you refuse to accept it.

 

The Crux of the argument is this, as I see it. You, Sultree and Luckers claim Cads is not rude, but what? Are you claiming she's a polite individual who employs rudeness when necessary?

 

No one said she is polite. In fact I assume such petty distinctions with the fate of the world on her shoulders matter little. What we are saying is what RJ said. Cads is a "remarkably adaptable" woman who uses a variety of tactics based on the situation.

 

Remarkably adaptable has nothing to do with her being a rude jerk, and a bully. In fact a large portion of this "debate" has been me providing examples of her rudeness, and you guys trying to explain it.

 

To be clear, I never claimed Cadsuane was never rude. Cadsuane treats people the way their actions suggest they deserve to be treated, irrespective of their rank or whether its impolite.

 

I rather respect this about her.

 

So... This is where the disconnect is (Although you attempted to "explain" a lot of her rudeness.) You're claiming that Cads treats people like they deserve to be treated, in her eyes I suppose, and thus we go back to my original comment on page 2, she's the worst. I dislike her, she thinks waaaaayyy too highly of herself.

 

I don't agree with your comment one bit. 1) Because I don't think it's ok to be rude to someone, ever. Kill them with kindness if you must. and 2) Because I can't think (Off the top of my head) of one person who deserved her initial rudeness. Sure, some respond back with rudeness, but your statement makes it seem like people were out of hand and her rudeness was the only way she could respond.

 

I point back to Rand's politely worded request to speak with her. Did that deserve rudeness? Or the Seafinder dignitary? Her request to have her crewmember returned, that deserved her to be threatened?

[Vardar]

Found it:

 

So, yes, I maintain that Cadsuane is both considerate and fair--in fact it is these traits that make her a successful bully.

 

I would not call Cads Considerate or Fair. Period.

 

Just noticed this debate has gone on for 5 pages. Had no idea, I thought the first 4 pages was Ny debate.

[Mr Ares]

I disagree with your first sentence. Things that happen during emergencies might be considered an acceptable impoliteness, but they are impolite nonetheless. Of course, you cannot accept that, as it undermines your point completely. I accept that there are situations in which one must step outside the boundaries of polite and civilised behaviour, because to do otherwise results in things far worse than a mere social faux pas. You do not accept that it is ever permissible to go beyond the boundaries of politeness, but in an effort to have your cake and eat it you claim that being rude in an emergency doesn't count. Of course, given that we are dealing with the fate of the world - both its possible destruction should Rand fail at TG or the darkness it might fall into should he win but not correct his behaviour - this could well qualify as an emergency, and therefore Cadsuane is not rude because it doesn't count, or it is still rudeness, but it is acceptable because of the state of emergency taking precedence. The slap was, of course, to convince Rand to stop using a weapon that, in the past, came close to destroying the world - therefore it is not rude because, again, it was a matter of life and death. Your argument is full of absurd holes.

 

I'm not refusing to accept it because it undermines my point, I'm refusing to accept it because it's idiotic. If I'm saving you from drowning and don't introduce myself before I pull you to a safe point, is that rude or impolite? No. Go look up the definition to being rude, as with a lot of things, context comes into play. Generally speaking one is rude on purpose. Is that always the case? No, just most of the time. In the situations we're discussing here, all of those incidents were on purpose, and took place with forethought and malice.

It is not the case that one is generally rude on purpose. Any amount of thoughtlessness can be rude. If anything, it happens more often by accident than design. Cadsuane's actions, though, were done with forethought. That much is not in dispute - the malice part is a fabrication, of course, but her rudeness is a premeditated action, a means to an end. The problem is that you have a belief that rudeness is never justified, no matter what. Whereas, I would contend that while manners do have a role to play in the functioning of polite society, they are not an overriding concern. There are times when it is wholly justified to step outside the boundaries of good manners.

 

If her natural state was "a rude ass", surely it would take less effort to go along with her natural tendency to rudeness in situations with "cowed people", where it will make no difference, than to go to the extra effort to not be rude to them? If rudeness is her natural state, then the path of least resistance is to continue being rude, and unless she has a good reason to avoid being rude, she should surely be rude to everyone. As it is, you admit that she takes the time and effort to be polite to people when she has no reason to be rude to them.

 

No. Your natural state as it refers to your personality doesn't mean no effort is needed, or even that being neutral is not still easier than putting forth the effort to be a jerk. She's good at what she does, that doesn't mean it doesn't take energy and forethought. You're really good at twisting words and presenting one sided situations as the gospel.

 

To be rude on Cad's level takes intelligence and forethought. Why would she waste that on someone she didn't have too? She wouldn't. Thus her treatment of cowed people. I've explained it again and again, you refuse to accept it.

Because I find your explanation lacking. Again, you speak to Cadsuane's rudeness serving a purpose. That she is not rude merely because she enjoys it, or because she has no other way of dealing people, or because it is an automatic first port of call. Which is exactly what has been put to you. Cadsuane doesn't act the way she does for the sheer hell of it, or for enjoyment. She does so to achieve her goals. According to you, Cadsuane goes out of her way to be polite to people unless she has a good reason not to. That is the conclusion that should be drawn from the points you make. And that is a good point, and one with which I agree.

 

The Crux of the argument is this, as I see it. You, Sultree and Luckers claim Cads is not rude, but what?

Firstly, it's Suttree, not Sultree. Secondly, no we don't claim that. What we claim is that Cadsuane treats people as they deserve to be treated, generally, and is willing to use rudeness as a tool to achieve her goals. We (or I, at the least) also claim that rudeness can be acceptable.

Are you claiming she's a polite individual who employs rudeness when necessary? If so, why haven't we seen it the majority of the time. I provided at least 20 examples during this silly debate of Cads rudeness, and I can provide more. How many exmaples have been harped upon by your cartel? 2. Her treatment of the Wise ones and the AS who are already in her pocket. What else do you have to go on here. If you think she's so polite and civilized, please provide some more examples.

Well, when you provided a list before, I did say that you were ignoring motive to look solely at action. Providing any number of examples of Cadsuane being rude doesn't further your point. Is she being rude for no reason? Is she treating people unfairly?

 

And cartel? Really, I saw us as more of a posse.

 

As to the slap, again the slap lead to Rand almost dying. How easily you forget that huh.

I don't forget it, I simply do not consider it relevant. Her action was to correct Rand's behaviour - he was using balefire, a very dangerous weave, by its nature damaging to the Pattern, that in the AoL almost caused the whole of existence to crumble. It was a point which required correction. That this lead to Fain stabbing him is hardly relevant - she was not to know that. She acted for a very good reason. The problem was due to something outside her knowledge, and not really relevant to her slap. Had she dealt with things politely, Rand might still have been distracted and got stabbed.

My argument is full of holes, yet you claim her assault which nearly caused him his life was a matter of life and death. You sir are delusional.

That's not a rebuttal to my point, that's an insult. Now, maybe there are some cultural differences coming into play here, but I think something here needs to be addressed. I don't know what the limits of politeness are considered to be in modern day Maryland, but I do know that in the Britain in which I was raised, calling man delusional - accurately or otherwise - is impolite. I would even go so far as to say rude. Yes, sir, I am calling you rude. You are persistently ill-mannered.

 

What dishonourable actions? She didn't actually betray Sorilea. And, further to that, her primary allegiance is to Rand - to fail to take action against Sorilea if she felt Sorilea was acting against Rand's best interests would itself be dishonourable.

 

Comtemplating betraying an alliance withing seconds of commiting to them is dishonorable. Also, stop twisting words, she would betray her when she felt Sorilea no longer had the same goals as her. Not just what was actually best for Rand, but what she felt was best. Two different things. Again twisting you now make it seem like she would rescue Rand from the machinations of Sorilea, when in fact he has a lot more trust in the Wise Ones than he has in Cads, this it's absurd what you're implying.

Considering something is not taking an action. There is a difference between thoughts and actions. She might be thinking dishonourable thoughts, but she is not taking dishonourable actions. Also, why do you try to make a distinction between what she thinks is best and what is actually best? Of course she is acting according to what she thinks is best. As is Sorilea, for that matter. That she might be incorrect in her beliefs is neither here nor there. Truly, what difference do you imagine it makes to your argument? It's not about Cadsuane saving Rand from Sorilea's machinations, nor does it matter that Rand trusts one more than the other. If Cadsuane has a belief about what is best for Rand, then to act in what you believe is someone's best interest is surely a good thing, at least in terms of intentions.

 

To be rude on Cad's level takes intelligence and forethought. Why would she waste that on someone she didn't have too? She wouldn't. Thus her treatment of cowed people. I've explained it again and again, you refuse to accept it.

 

The Crux of the argument is this, as I see it. You, Sultree and Luckers claim Cads is not rude, but what? Are you claiming she's a polite individual who employs rudeness when necessary?

 

No one said she is polite. In fact I assume such petty distinctions with the fate of the world on her shoulders matter little. What we are saying is what RJ said. Cads is a "remarkably adaptable" woman who uses a variety of tactics based on the situation.

 

Remarkably adaptable has nothing to do with her being a rude jerk, and a bully. In fact a large portion of this "debate" has been me providing examples of her rudeness, and you guys trying to explain it.

And explaining it very well. As I said, simply providing an example of Cadsuane being rude does not further your argument. Showing her being rude for no better reason than that she can be does, but you have no example of that.

 

 

To be clear, I never claimed Cadsuane was never rude. Cadsuane treats people the way their actions suggest they deserve to be treated, irrespective of their rank or whether its impolite.

 

I rather respect this about her.

 

So... This is where the disconnect is (Although you attempted to "explain" a lot of her rudeness.) You're claiming that Cads treats people like they deserve to be treated, in her eyes I suppose, and thus we go back to my original comment on page 2, she's the worst. I dislike her, she thinks waaaaayyy too highly of herself.

 

I don't agree with your comment one bit. 1) Because I don't think it's ok to be rude to someone, ever. Kill them with kindness if you must.

Your actions put the lie to that.

and 2) Because I can't think (Off the top of my head) of one person who deserved her initial rudeness. Sure, some respond back with rudeness, but your statement makes it seem like people were out of hand and her rudeness was the only way she could respond.

Rand frequently acted in a childish way. Her response was to treat him like a child. Rude? Perhaps. Deserved? Yes.

[Vardar]

It is not the case that one is generally rude on purpose. Any amount of thoughtlessness can be rude. If anything, it happens more often by accident than design. Cadsuane's actions, though, were done with forethought. That much is not in dispute - the malice part is a fabrication, of course, but her rudeness is a premeditated action, a means to an end. The problem is that you have a belief that rudeness is never justified, no matter what. Whereas, I would contend that while manners do have a role to play in the functioning of polite society, they are not an overriding concern. There are times when it is wholly justified to step outside the boundaries of good manners.

We’re not going to agree here. You believe rudeness has it’s place in society, I do not. Justified rudeness is still rudeness. As to the malice part, that’s my interpretation of the works. She shows no remorse (With 1 single exception, and I’d barely qualify that as actual remorse) and we have no POV’s of her thinking she could use another way.

 

Because I find your explanation lacking. Again, you speak to Cadsuane's rudeness serving a purpose. That she is not rude merely because she enjoys it, or because she has no other way of dealing people, or because it is an automatic first port of call. Which is exactly what has been put to you. Cadsuane doesn't act the way she does for the sheer hell of it, or for enjoyment. She does so to achieve her goals. According to you, Cadsuane goes out of her way to be polite to people unless she has a good reason not to. That is the conclusion that should be drawn from the points you make. And that is a good point, and one with which I agree.

Not sure what you’re saying here. Are you, agreeing with me.

 

Firstly, it's Suttree, not Sultree. Secondly, no we don't claim that. What we claim is that Cadsuane treats people as they deserve to be treated, generally, and is willing to use rudeness as a tool to achieve her goals. We (or I, at the least) also claim that rudeness can be acceptable.

It was a question.

How did the Ashamen deserve to be blackmailed? How did The Seafolk dignitary deserve to be threatened? I’d even question how Moriane deserved her treatment. Not to mention how Rand and Berlain deserved their initial treatment. However I’m forced at this point to point out that due to your wording, it’s implied that it’s how she believes they deserve to be treated. With those words, if someone believes someone else deserves to be killed, they could claim it’s not murder. So, if that’s your belief, I would say yes, you are correct. Still doesn’t invalidate my initial assessment of her.

 

Well, when you provided a list before, I did say that you were ignoring motive to look solely at action. Providing any number of examples of Cadsuane being rude doesn't further your point. Is she being rude for no reason? Is she treating people unfairly?

 

And cartel? Really, I saw us as more of a posse

It does further my point, that she is a rude ass. Which was my entire point. If you agree with that, then fine. If not, provide evidence pointing out that she isn’t. Just claiming that she has reason doesn’t solve anything. (Especially since the reason you provide is, she feels it’s necessary, again that justifies any action imaginable)

That's not a rebuttal to my point, that's an insult. Now, maybe there are some cultural differences coming into play here, but I think something here needs to be addressed. I don't know what the limits of politeness are considered to be in modern day Maryland, but I do know that in the Britain in which I was raised, calling man delusional - accurately or otherwise - is impolite. I would even go so far as to say rude. Yes, sir, I am calling you rude. You are persistently ill-mannered.

 

Please point out the insult. Here is the definition provided. I am claiming you are under false beliefs or opinions. Which I must point out I have been stating this entire time. You can claim what you want, feel free. I am not however, rude. To say someone is deluded is not an insult. (However if delusional in your language differs from mine, please refer to the definition provided below).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusion

 

Considering something is not taking an action. There is a difference between thoughts and actions. She might be thinking dishonourable thoughts, but she is not taking dishonourable actions. Also, why do you try to make a distinction between what she thinks is best and what is actually best? Of course she is acting according to what she thinks is best. As is Sorilea, for that matter. That she might be incorrect in her beliefs is neither here nor there. Truly, what difference do you imagine it makes to your argument? It's not about Cadsuane saving Rand from Sorilea's machinations, nor does it matter that Rand trusts one more than the other. If Cadsuane has a belief about what is best for Rand, then to act in what you believe is someone's best interest is surely a good thing, at least in terms of intentions.

 

Please go back and reread the statement you’re replying too and the statement that I replied too. At that point, we were discussing a hypothetical situation that you brought up.

 

Your actions put the lie to that.

 

You’re delusional. Or confused if it makes you feel better. Hell, I can say, you are wrong if you consider confused an insult as well. Or if you like, I can only use small words. Synonyms are great.

[Vardar]

Rand frequently acted in a childish way. Her response was to treat him like a child. Rude? Perhaps. Deserved? Yes.

 

She just met Rand. She doesn't know he he acted, at least she couldn't have been sure because this was her initial meeting with him. Thus, you're wrong again.

[TristanWebb]

She spent days atleast in the city before she met Rand, she had time to learn about him.

[Vardar]

She spent days atleast in the city before she met Rand, she had time to learn about him.

 

But she's going based on the opinions of others, which an intelligent person would not take as the gospel. Being rude to someone based on actions heard 3rd hand is pretty stupid to be frank. And still doesn't support his theory, and in fact wouldn further refute it as that's a pretty childish thing to do.

[avernite]

Rand frequently acted in a childish way. Her response was to treat him like a child. Rude? Perhaps. Deserved? Yes.

 

I'd disagree, and further think Rand is a bad point to make. She was rude to Rand because she considered it necessary. Not because he deserved it. Rand was getting overly agressive, too short of temper... and too accustomed to people accepting that. So she prodded him to try to make him see the error there. Deserving it or not has nothing at all to do with it, which is why I can accept her. Likewise, with Aleis she was completely rude, but she did believe she did the only thing to get Rand out.

 

At times her rudeness truly makes no sense from that perspective though: when she is rude to Tam, she'd already failed, making Tam angry served no purpose at all in regards to Rand. Being rude and bossy to Nyn/Min? These are parts where she was rude for no good reason; sure, Nynaeve and Min would not accept her plans like nice puppies... but all she achieved by being rude was essentially to test their ability to accept her as boss. They did, after which she showed she can treat people as they deserve, but she really just started as rude first because she was convinced only as boss could she 'fix' things. Which is a bit arrogant.

[muddasssir]

I' ll repeat myself She is bullying Aleis for no reason. If she had stayed at an Inn how would that have effected her final confrontation with Aleis? She takes her Ashaman to council chamber and uses Nynaeve's well. If she had stayed at an inn she could have still done it and she did not need to have bullied Aleis for that invitation. As for verin doing her thing with guardian . well she did that before she was invited to live with Aleis. Threfore, t had no bearing on that. I respect that RJ sad that she is flexible but that is not the way he and later BS wrote her. That scene with Tam was extremely consistent to way she had been behaving through out the series. She refuses to accept Nyny as a sister because she had not held the oath rod and she was not raised conventionally. Her rudeness to Athan miere ambassador was totally uncalled for. One can quote hundreds of such incidents where she could have taken another approach but she refused and took the path of a bully. now question is was it an effective plot ploy? Answer is an emphatic yes. whether she behaved like a bully? Answer is again an emphatic yes. We or at least me do not doubt her intentions but her actions are the ones of a bully and do not take me wrong. As, I said before that she is a very effective character and this is a part of her charm. I offer a compromise one side concedes that she does behave as a bully denying it is besides the point in face of over whelming textual evidence. Other side at least on my part i am willing to concede that she is a super character and if someone does not agr with that assessment I can live with that too.

[Jonas]

Cadsuane.

 

However, I think Nynaeve is one of the most misunderstood characters in all of WoT. In my opinion, she is one of the most humble, often scared, unsure characters in the series, albeit with a steel-forged core of Two Rivers will.

 

I realize that is a totally controversial stand on Nynaeve, one I might enjoy debating at another time!

[Suttree]

I' ll repeat myself She is bullying Aleis for no reason. If she had stayed at an Inn how would that have effected her final confrontation with Aleis? She takes her Ashaman to council chamber and uses Nynaeve's well. If she had stayed at an inn she could have still done it and she did not need to have bullied Aleis for that invitation. As for verin doing her thing with guardian . well she did that before she was invited to live with Aleis. Threfore, t had no bearing on that. I respect that RJ sad that she is flexible but that is not the way he and later BS wrote her. That scene with Tam was extremely consistent to way she had been behaving through out the series. She refuses to accept Nyny as a sister because she had not held the oath rod and she was not raised conventionally. Her rudeness to Athan miere ambassador was totally uncalled for. One can quote hundreds of such incidents where she could have taken another approach but she refused and took the path of a bully. now question is was it an effective plot ploy? Answer is an emphatic yes. whether she behaved like a bully? Answer is again an emphatic yes. We or at least me do not doubt her intentions but her actions are the ones of a bully and do not take me wrong. As, I said before that she is a very effective character and this is a part of her charm. I offer a compromise one side concedes that she does behave as a bully denying it is besides the point in face of over whelming textual evidence. Other side at least on my part i am willing to concede that she is a super character and if someone does not agr with that assessment I can live with that too.

 

Sigh. You do realize repeating yourself doesnt make it any more true correct? All it does is show you are willing to ignore textual evidence. Mudd before commenting please go back and read the segment in question. You continue to get the details wrong. Once again she used the invitation so she would have unfettered access to the palace including the room with the guardian. Verin's quote about a man channeling, contrary to your assertion comes AFTER the invite. This was critical to the entire plan as it set up being able to save Rand later. If Cads had no access to the palace and Verin had not set things up with the ashaman channeling then there is no plan!!! Not sure why you assume she could have accomplished it in other ways? It's plain as day. It was a premeditated action and each of those steps was part of the plan. I don't know how anyone can make it more plain to you but you can't argue with what happens in the text.

 

The dispute here is one side saying she is a just a bully and the other saying she uses various tactics(including bullying) to achieve her goals.

 

One last point the scene with Tam was extremely out of character and many people here on the boards have expressed disappointment with how the scene was handled by BS. The Cads from earlier in the series would never have resorted to threats with the power. She would have been disgusted by any AS that would need to. The whole scene stands out as a highlight of the "blunt plot work" people are talking about in other threads.

[condonmc]

Come on sutt, are you seriously making this argument?

You'd better believe it............

1+ to you my man, but I still have hope for Sutt

 

Actually it's the point our side has been making all along. Cadsuane is not inherently rude. You presented a situation in which Cads had a premeditated plan and her inclusion of an invite through the sea folk was part of that. In your first post you claimed she was rude here for no reason and that is unequivocally not the case. This was all part of the plan that culminated in her being in a position to save Rand. This whole section was made to show us how meticulous she is.

 

To say she was doing this only to show she can is somewhat shocking. Did the whole plan in this section of WH go completely over both of your heads? Then again considering the person giving you support in this thread is named after a character from bluntly written, glorified marketing materials made to sell more 50 sided dice it's not surprising that it would.

come on sutt you are getting personal and that is uncalled for, but if she had stayed at an inn everyone still would have known that she is in far madding and from what we have seen her reputation precedes her. So, if she had stayed at an inn she could have still effected the events as much as she did. I am sorry sutt, but there is exactly zero textual evidence of your contention.

O he does it all the time as well as being bullyish and rude and downright mean.......No one ever calls him for it though....I wonder why?