Nynaeve, the most arrogant character in WoT?

[muddasssir]

wow this is so enlightening, but sutt does it mean that you ar finally rady to admit that w wr both talking about same thing?

[Suttree]

wow this is so enlightening, but sutt does it mean that you ar finally rady to admit that w wr both talking about same thing?

 

I haven't even got that far yet. Still trying to understand how you try and claim,

 

I never said for no reason.

 

when these quotes are littered throughout the thread,

 

it has nothing to do with helping Rand or anyone else. She is just doing it to show that she can. A classic trait of a bully.

 

I' ll repeat myself She is bullying Aleis for no reason.

 

but she is rude, insulting and overbearing without any reason most of the time

 

In addition the topic for me has stopped being about Cadsuane and Vardarmus' assertion that Cads is a "selfish"(still makes me laugh, she has dedicated her life to helping Rand and the world despite what is best for her or the WT which is the exact opposite of selfish. Even the most ardent Cads haters can see how ludicrous this claim is), "tactless", "uncouth" bully a while back. For the last however many pages I along with numerous other posters have been trying to hold your hand through explaining the plan she enacted to help Rand should he get into trouble in Far Madding. You can continue to deny what you have been quoted saying above if you like but please tell me at the very least you understand that scene in Winters Heart now?

 

One additional thing I would still like to see however is Vardarmus take a crack at escaping the neat little corner Mr Ares has pinned him into here...

 

Not sure what you’re saying here. Are you, agreeing with me?

I'm agreeing with the conclusion you should be making, based on your premises. Cadsuane is not rude to people she doesn't need to be rude to (your own assessment of her interactions with AS). Her rudeness is not done because she has no other way of interacting with people, nor is it because she has no other way of getting them to do as she wants. It is a specific tactic. For a specific purpose. And when she uses it, it is because it is the best - maybe even only - tactic available to her. If I need you to do X, and I cannot get you to do X by being polite, then I need to be rude to you. It is justified. (And I said need X, not merely want X.) So the conclusion you should be reaching is that Cadsuane is justified in what she does. But you shy away from that, because it would involve admitting you were wrong. Yet you also don't change your premises, so have merely reach an illogical conclusion.

[lostcause]

then i'll have to assume the worst

 

As I think you should. there are a small handfull of posters on these boards that make me and my girlfriend stick to mostly lurking. It's demotivating to read threads where a person will "win" arguments/debates either by stubbornly splitting hairs until the other party gives up repeating themselves or by doggedly conjure up strawman after strawman, and then state them as valid points for proving someone wrong.

 

Anyway back to lurking and shaking our heads. :)

 

PS Cads is a charismatic bully, that knows when and how to use the tools at her disposal. Easy as that.

[csarmi]

So you're being rude to Cadsuane right now. You keep calling her a bully (which she isn't).

You've also been called out (rightly) on being rude to Mr Ares.

Yet you state that rudeness is never justified (a very stupid belief in my opinion).

Hypocrisy too much?

 

Cads is not real. In fact, she's not even an imaginary friend, therefore you cannot be rude to her. If she was an imaginary friend of someone on the boards, then a case could possibly be made that someone could be rude to her, and by extension the person imagining her. As it stands, you cannot be rude to someone to doesn't or never did exist. (Being rude to a memory of a person is possible as well in certian situations).

 

To me, Cads is just as much real as you are. But to turn it back on you. Berelain isn't real either.

Called out, wrongfully so. Calling someone wrong or confused is not rude. How you call someone wrong or confused could be. Saying, "You're wrong" or "You're delusional" is not rude in itself. Now, those words in a non text based medium could be rude in themselves, but the tone of your voice and other things would come into play. With pure written communication, calling someone wrong is in no way shape or form insulting. Sure, other words could be added to make it insulting, but no were. I was even polite enough to call him sir when I said it. Try again good sir, you are wrong. (*Gasp* hope you're not insulted)

 

You called him mental. I can assure you that's what people would read here.

 

Now here this could be considered rudeness. Stupid is a negative word, however since you applied it to my belief and not my person, I woudn't take offense. Other's wouldn't be so kind, as Mudd said below you.

 

No, not at all.

 

Bingo, it is rudeness. Intentional.

 

Now you're making no sense at all. We're discussing the behavior or characters who aren't real, in dealing with each other...

 

Know what, I'm not going to further dignify that with a response since it's obvious that you're trolling.

 

As to the second part, I said no such thing. Reread my statement again and don't misquote me. I've called no one "mental."

 

No, I'm not trolling at all.

A pretty big chunk of the arguments you are making (yes, I have read through the thread thoroughly) are getting dangerously close to trolling, however. Your points taken to little pieces time and time again and you keep saying them. After they have been proven wrong.

 

We are discussing the behaviour of characters. You're trying to apply a standard to them (rudeness is always wrong), a standard you yourself don't live up to.

 

As soon as you're trying to apply anything to their behaviour, they are "real" and on these columns they are placed on the same level as you. CAn't explain it any better.

 

As for the mental part, that's how it read for me. When I read through those points, it was completely clearly an insult (and rude).

 

It is not you who define rudeness.

[csarmi]

I never said for no reason. I always said she could have taken an alternative which is not same as no reason. I was talking about making choices She did not need invitation to be in that chamber when the first interaction took place between her and Aleis. She received the invitation after the incident and she was already there. I am again maintaining that She could have done just as well from an inn as someone did try to stop her from entering council chambers. Another rhing that I could not fin was that barsala estate or whatever it is called is in anyway adjacent to guardian. My understanding from reading that scene has always been that it was the residence of the foirst council and it was located at some height.

 

See, that's what I'm talking about. Either you didn't read the book, or you don't understand it at all, or you're trying VERY hard to read into it things that aren't there. In any of those three cases, there is not much point discussing them with you (at least when it comes to Cads).

 

I'll restate it for you.

 

She had to prepare for future events. Anything at all might happen to Rand and co.

She needed to gain as much influence as possible.

She needed to get to as powerful position as possible.

The best way to achieve that is to get invited into the palace as guest (if you can't see why staying in a tavern would be different, read some politics and history).

 

She needs to setup a power card. As powerful as it can be. She hopes she won't have to use it.

For that, she needs Verin, a male channeler, access to the guardian, a well, etc...

Obviously, she needs to be there, you can't direct events like those from far away.

 

When Rand gets into trouble, she has to help him.

Even THEN she tries to avoid having to destroy Aleis. When she can't, she plays that card she prepared.

[csarmi]

yar sutt it seems that fair number of posters were on the both side of divide and others just fell away when they realized that both parties are not ready to listen to reason. as for Shortkut I am still stumped. I was agreeing with your assertion. How does that makes me anal retentive. you know what we should start a thread on anal retentiveness.

 

there are no parties here

you're trolling and people are feeding you

the argument about Cads vs Aleis can be interpreted in no other way

hope you're having fun

[shortkut]

PS Cads is a charismatic bully, that knows when and how to use the tools at her disposal. Easy as that.

hey! You're not allowed to come up with a description that could in theory please both sides! What's the matter with you?!

[csarmi]

What's the argument here? The Incident with Cads and the initial "snub" as you termed it occured in Chapter 24 of winter's heart. Her breaking of the council woman occured. in Chapter 34. Are you suggesting that Cads knew the future? That she knew Rand would get arrested and she would have to break him out of jail?

 

That's what it seems you're implying but I'll go back and pull your quote.

 

Yes, she knew the future. SHE KNEW THERE WOULD BE ONE.

Good generals have a plan fo any eventualities you know.

She knew she might need a power card. Why should she think so? They are entering an area where channeling does not work, Rand is very good at getting himself into trouble, not to mention that Cads might have a clue what he came there for.

[Knivy]

So the quote I provided a few pages back is just going to be ignored?

 

Sorry, i think it is one of the most supportive of the anti-cads arguments and it wasnt even mentioned by any of the "cartel"

[Suttree]

So the quote I provided a few pages back is just going to be ignored?

 

Sorry, i think it is one of the most supportive of the anti-cads arguments and it wasnt even mentioned by any of the "cartel"

 

Are you joking?

 

CoT p553

"I expect you to watch her, Samitsu. No more than that. I want to know what on eof these Dragonsworn sisters does when neither I nor the Wise Ones are looking over their shoulders and holding a switch. Youve always been very observant." Patience was not always her strongest trait, but sometimes it was required with Samitsu. The Yellow was observant, and intelligent, and strong willed most of the time, not to mention the best alive at Healing -- At least until the appearance of Damer Flinn -- but she could suffer the most astonishing collapses in confidence. The stick never worked with Samitsu, but pats on the back did, and it was ridiculous not to use what worked...

This bolded line seems to present the entirety of the argument. Her first thought is of bullying, but if that wont work she wont shy away from using what will.

 

Ermmm what would possibly make you reach that conclusion? If anything this is direct evidence that she uses a variety of methods based on the situation. Samitsu is obviously suffering a crisis of confidence and Cads is stating what is needed to get her out of it and also what wouldn't work. Earlier she mentions what the WOs and her had been using to keep the Dragonsworn sisters in line and thinks she needs a different tact entirely with Samitsu. Not to mention you leave out how effective she is, all this does is underline her success at using varying methods based on the situation. Indeed by her own admission "it was ridiculous not to use what worked"

 

CoT

As Cadsuane reminded her how intelligent she was, how skilled at Healing – that was always nec­essary, with Samitsu; she could go into a depression over failing to Heal a dead man – how clever, the Arafellin sister began to draw up her composure. And her self-assurance. “You can be assured Sashalle won’t change her stockings with­out I know it,” she said crisply. In truth, Cadsuane expected no less.

 

In addition the quote has been referenced since the by a number of others others following that point, even those on the other side of the debate conceded that is a quote that supports our side.

[Mr Ares]

Vardarmus believes despite it not being part of her inherent nature, it is never acceptable for a character like Cads to utilize rudeness or bullying as part of her overall package of tactics while attempting to save the world. The odd thing is apparently it is acceptable to do so while discussing the topic with Mr Ares on a blog? One must have priorities after all. ;)

Vardarmus has said that he wouldn't be rude to his worst enemy. Obviously, I need to make him hate me more, so then he can kill me with kindness.

 

Also, my thanks to both you and csarmi for calling Vardarmus out on his occasional straying from the path of politeness.

 

So you're being rude to Cadsuane right now. You keep calling her a bully (which she isn't).

You've also been called out (rightly) on being rude to Mr Ares.

Yet you state that rudeness is never justified (a very stupid belief in my opinion).

Hypocrisy too much?

 

Cads is not real. In fact, she's not even an imaginary friend, therefore you cannot be rude to her. If she was an imaginary friend of someone on the boards, then a case could possibly be made that someone could be rude to her, and by extension the person imagining her. As it stands, you cannot be rude to someone to doesn't or never did exist. (Being rude to a memory of a person is possible as well in certian situations).

 

Called out, wrongfully so. Calling someone wrong or confused is not rude. How you call someone wrong or confused could be. Saying, "You're wrong" or "You're delusional" is not rude in itself. Now, those words in a non text based medium could be rude in themselves, but the tone of your voice and other things would come into play. With pure written communication, calling someone wrong is in no way shape or form insulting. Sure, other words could be added to make it insulting, but no were. I was even polite enough to call him sir when I said it. Try again good sir, you are wrong. (*Gasp* hope you're not insulted)

 

Now here this could be considered rudeness. Stupid is a negative word, however since you applied it to my belief and not my person, I woudn't take offense. Other's wouldn't be so kind, as Mudd said below you.

 

No, not at all.

Calling someone wrong or confused is indeed no in and of itself rude. It is a matter of how one handles it. However, bluntly saying "you are wrong" is not a particularly polite way of saying things. Delusional is even worse - it is a decidedly loaded word. Look at the definition I provided. "A fixed false belief resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact." That is in no way a polite way of phrasing things. Absent things like tone of voice, the words we use become even more important. The words you chose came across as rude, blunt, dismissive, insulting and impolite. And aside from yourself, that is what everyone who has commented on the issue has said. It is the prevailing viewpoint, as far as can be determined. And it would be simple enough to say that no offence was intended, to admit it was perhaps a poor choice of words. People do phrase things badly from time to time. I'm very often blunt with how I say things. To claim that the veneer of politeness offered by calling me sir is enough to put you above any accusation of rudeness is a somewhat dubious assertion. It's entirely possible to insert the word sir into a sentence loaded with insults. If you prize politeness as much as you claim, I'm sure you'll take this on board in the spirit in which it is intended.

[Knivy]

So the quote I provided a few pages back is just going to be ignored?

 

Sorry, i think it is one of the most supportive of the anti-cads arguments and it wasnt even mentioned by any of the "cartel"

 

Are you joking?

 

CoT p553

"I expect you to watch her, Samitsu. No more than that. I want to know what on eof these Dragonsworn sisters does when neither I nor the Wise Ones are looking over their shoulders and holding a switch. Youve always been very observant." Patience was not always her strongest trait, but sometimes it was required with Samitsu. The Yellow was observant, and intelligent, and strong willed most of the time, not to mention the best alive at Healing -- At least until the appearance of Damer Flinn -- but she could suffer the most astonishing collapses in confidence. The stick never worked with Samitsu, but pats on the back did, and it was ridiculous not to use what worked...

This bolded line seems to present the entirety of the argument. Her first thought is of bullying, but if that wont work she wont shy away from using what will.

 

Ermmm what would possibly make you reach that conclusion? If anything this is direct evidence that she uses a variety of methods based on the situation. Samitsu is obviously suffering a crisis of confidence and Cads is stating what is needed to get her out of it and also what wouldn't work. Earlier she mentions what the WOs and her had been using to keep the Dragonsworn sisters in line and thinks she needs a different tact entirely with Samitsu. Not to mention you leave out how effective she is, all this does is underline her success at using varying methods based on the situation. Indeed by her own admission "it was ridiculous not to use what worked"

 

CoT

As Cadsuane reminded her how intelligent she was, how skilled at Healing – that was always nec­essary, with Samitsu; she could go into a depression over failing to Heal a dead man – how clever, the Arafellin sister began to draw up her composure. And her self-assurance. “You can be assured Sashalle won’t change her stockings with­out I know it,” she said crisply. In truth, Cadsuane expected no less.

 

In addition the quote has been referenced since the by a number of others others following that point, even those on the other side of the debate conceded that is a quote that supports our side.

I apologize, i must have missed that post. Still, the quote shows she would rather use "the stick," which is the entire point.. That she got the results she wanted doesn't matter, It is her thoughts that show her character. She is smart enough to know kindness is the only thing that would work, so she uses it, despite preferring to bully.

[Luckers]

Aaaand I'm bored. More than that, I'm justified under the Code of Conduct to shut this conversation down.

 

Seriously guys, walk away and if in a week you want to revisit it in a calmer, more constructive manner, you're more than welcome to create a new thread. In a week.