Ebou Dar

[Terez]

Just because it's not in that database, doesn't mean it wasn't said.

 

Perhaps you can provide a reference, then. No one is going to just take your word for it. We have plenty of references saying that the Black Tower is behind in the timeline, and that it's addressed early in the book, but nothing to say that it will somehow be resolved before anyone at Merrilor hears about it, and nothing to preclude them getting involved.

[Maleshub]

There was a small foreshadowing by Rand that Taim may have to wait till after Tarmon Gaidin.

 

1. Verin said that in KOD. She's probably wong.

 

2. It's Tarmon Gai'don. Gaidin=Warder. Just saying.

 

Thanks for "Tarmon Gai'don!"

 

Regarding renegade Ashaman surviving the Last Battle, I'm just doing some speculation here. It seems plausible that some might survive the TG. An immediate purpose of the Red Ajah would be to capture and execute renegade channelers who are Black Ajah or Darkfriends. We have about 50 BA Aes Sedai on the loose and Taim's faction is at least 100 strong. If 10-20% survive TG, they would have to be hunted down. Whether Taim is one of them or not, I cannot be sure.

[Finnssss22]

Just because it's not in that database, doesn't mean it wasn't said.

 

Perhaps you can provide a reference, then. No one is going to just take your word for it. We have plenty of references saying that the Black Tower is behind in the timeline, and that it's addressed early in the book, but nothing to say that it will somehow be resolved before anyone at Merrilor hears about it, and nothing to preclude them getting involved.

 

 

Believe me, I'm looking for it. Hell I couldn't even remember where I saw it over a year ago when it was fresh in my mind http://www.dragonmou...75#entry1747975

Obviously I had the right of it then or you (who posted right after) would of taken issue with it.

 

I distinctly remember 3 things that were said:

1) That the BT timeline is indeed a week or two behind.

2) That the BT situation has to be resolved before he can move on to others arcs.

3) That he has already dedicated a half a dozen or so chapters at the beginning to accomplishing that.

 

 

Someone else saw/heard he same thing as evidenced here:

http://www.tarvalon....hp?f=36&t=11285

 

I don't honestly remember where it's from, I wish to god I could but I do remember those points clearly and there's nothing in the data base about BS talking about the early chapters being about the Black Tower. That was definitely mentioned.

 

Now I have to look through all the Youtube interviews from back then, maybe that's where it's from...sigh.

 

The other thing that I believe is a big clue is, in those above mentioned reports, how BS was talking about how awesome Pevara is. What has she done so far to be considered that awesome? Nothing, so it's likely he is referring to what she's doing at the BT, the stuff he was writing for aMoL that he couldn't fit in to ToM.

That makes some sense at least right?

[Terez]

Just because it's not in that database, doesn't mean it wasn't said.

 

Perhaps you can provide a reference, then. No one is going to just take your word for it. We have plenty of references saying that the Black Tower is behind in the timeline, and that it's addressed early in the book, but nothing to say that it will somehow be resolved before anyone at Merrilor hears about it, and nothing to preclude them getting involved.

 

 

Believe me, I'm looking for it. Hell I couldn't even remember where I saw it over a year ago when it was fresh in my mind http://www.dragonmou...75#entry1747975

Obviously I had the right of it then or you (who posted right after) would of taken issue with it.

 

Would have. (Just saying.) And I probably didn't realize what you are trying to imply; if I had, I would have disagreed with you. I don't always read every bit of everyone's posts.

[yoniy0]

Finnsss, I think you're taking the same quotes we've all seen out of context:

TOM Signing Report - Robert Mee (Paraphrased) Nov 6th, 2010

Taim may not be a standard Third Ager. Brandon wouldn’t say any further because he has about five chapters revolving around the Black Tower to write for the beginning of the next book and he didn’t want to spoil, so it was half a RAFO.

 

Afternoon Tea with Brandon Sanderson - Luckers (Paraphrased) Apr, 2012

Luckers

Are Toveine and Gabrelle and the rest of the forcibly bonded sister still plotting to bring down the Black Tower?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. I will say this though, this does get touched on in A Memory of Light. There are a few scenes where we see this.

 

Melbourne SupaNova - wotsummary (Paraphrased) Apr, 2012

Brandon promised me in Melbourne that the Black Tower made up a decent chunk of the start of the book. And that all of Pevara's storyline did make the cut.

[Finnssss22]

Fair enough, I won't push the point without proper evidence but I'll keep looking.

 

The main thing I'm having trouble letting go of is about BS having to resolve the BT arc before moving to any other. I know I saw that somewhere damn it heh.

[Terez]

Even if Brandon said "I have to finish the Black Tower stuff before I can move on to other arcs" I'd still say you were interpreting it wrongly. Some characters will be involved, and some won't.

 

That's not to say that Logain won't take care of the whole business himself; it's quite possible. But I don't believe that Brandon has said anything that rules out participation from main characters. Perhaps Logain will wrap everything up and save Caemlyn, thus earning his glory. Perhaps Logain will even do something crazy like kill an impostor wearing Rand's face; there's foreshadowing for that in TSR. Perhaps Logain is the other dead man with Talmanes and Rand finds both of them in Caemlyn.

[Finnssss22]

Even if Brandon said "I have to finish the Black Tower stuff before I can move on to other arcs" I'd still say you were interpreting it wrongly. Some characters will be involved, and some won't.

 

That's not to say that Logain won't take care of the whole business himself; it's quite possible. But I don't believe that Brandon has said anything that rules out participation from main characters. Perhaps Logain will wrap everything up and save Caemlyn, thus earning his glory. Perhaps Logain will even do something crazy like kill an impostor wearing Rand's face; there's foreshadowing for that in TSR. Perhaps Logain is the other dead man with Talmanes and Rand finds both of them in Caemlyn.

 

 

Aye, that's what I meant earlier why having the "Big guys" come in to handle it doesn't seem right.

*They are a week plus behind and things were coming to a head pretty quickly at the end of ToM. Are they just going to sit on theri hands planning for a week and half? Why the build up of hers and Androl's alliance if it doesn't play a major if not THE major role?

*Why is BS talking about Pevara being awesome? She hasn't done anything yet and it seems likely her "awesomeness" will come about during the BT liberation. Having the "big guys" come in to do the heavy lifting would definitely take away from her "awesomeness" imo.

*Naeff will have already been at the BT for more than a day before any of the "Big guys" could do anything. All their timelines are already a day and more past when he left for there.

*Logain! Need I really say more? Like you said, it's very likely that he has a hand in the BT battle and barring that, definitely Caemlyn.

 

Maybe it's just me but the BT battle being settled before the true battle for Caemlyn takes place just feels right and makes more sense to me. I dunno.

[Terez]

It's pretty clear that the Caemlyn battle and the Black Tower battle are simultaneous, even if Logain doesn't get a lick of help from Merrilor folks.

[Finnssss22]

It's pretty clear that the Caemlyn battle and the Black Tower battle are simultaneous, even if Logain doesn't get a lick of help from Merrilor folks.

 

Is it clear though?

They are more than a week behind everyone else and it is still a possibility that the victors of the BT could then participate in the battle of Caemlyn.

I'm just saying, it is possible, though I do agree that it's going to be extremely close together.

[Sharaman]

Assuming Battle of Caemlyn happens at the same time that Mat escapes ToG (due to the Olver winning game reference).

Also assuming that due to Mat & Perrin's VIsions of Rand at the time of the ToG arc (they see him with Borderlanders and eating with Min) that this is the same time as the two-day period when Rand first goes to Far Madding and then to FoMerrilor.

Third assumption is that the BT is still sequestered by Dreamspike since Perrin/ Rand have referenced an inability to reach it just before and at FoM.

Then although we don't have a catchup from the BT timeline itself but we have evidence from other timelines that the situation has not been resolved by the time of FoM/ Caemlyn Attack.

[Finnssss22]

Assuming Battle of Caemlyn happens at the same time that Mat escapes ToG (due to the Olver winning game reference).

Also assuming that due to Mat & Perrin's VIsions of Rand at the time of the ToG arc (they see him with Borderlanders and eating with Min) that this is the same time as the two-day period when Rand first goes to Far Madding and then to FoMerrilor.

Third assumption is that the BT is still sequestered by Dreamspike since Perrin/ Rand have referenced an inability to reach it just before and at FoM.

Then although we don't have a catchup from the BT timeline itself but we have evidence from other timelines that the situation has not been resolved by the time of FoM/ Caemlyn Attack.

 

 

Not exactly.

The only flaw in this thinking is that you are using the inability to Travel there as an indication of the situation.

Even if the BT battle is already finished, there is no way to do anything about the Dreamspike until Perrin or someone like him (Egwene for example) enters TAR to do it.

[Terez]

Again, it's not so much that it's still activated as that it was only recently activated. And it's doubtful Taim won't have time to turn at least 100 or so channelers before he's defeated.

[yoniy0]

Well, I take issue with the fact that it's still activated as well. The only reason the BT is inaccessible is because Taim has the perimeter guarded. See Nynaeve's trip to its vicinity. It would take Naeff (or anyone else) a couple of hours tops to get somewhere from which they could Travel and update Rand on the situation. Since no one has, we have to conclude that matters there are coming to a head at roughly the same time as the Caemlyn invasion, Rand's dream, Perrin's assumed adventure, and Mat's rabbit dinner.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Spoilers from the Orbit cover blurb.

 

It's not incredibly clear whether the blurb is supposed to imply that Mat goes to Ebou Dar in the beginning of the book, but you would think they wouldn't skip important things. So, let's assume that it makes sense. There are a few details worth considering.

 

1. Caemlyn is probably going to be included in the area of the dreamspike at some point. If Grady can't Travel there, then Mat can't do anything about the battle. Or at least, he would have a hard time doing something about it. And they might not even have word of the battle, if no one can escape to spread word about it. Androl might come in there, but will he reach Merrilor?

 

The area of effect of the Dreamspike isn't large enough to cover both Caemlyn and the Black Tower. So if it gets moved to Caemlyn the BT will be freed.

 

2. Min's viewing of two dead men surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, in conjunction with a viewing of a smoking pipe. This is widely believed to indicate Talmanes on both counts (his pipe theoretically has a tracer weave set on it by Demandred), though it would have to have something to do with Rand, since she saw it around Rand. The Band is camped between the city and 10,000 mercenaries; they probably don't stand a chance. What if all of them in Caemlyn die, and the ones with Elayne are the only ones left by the time Mat can even do anything?

 

 

Why would Demandred put a tracer weave on Talmanes' pipe? He certainly could, but would he even bother? Is Talmanes important enough to warrant such attention?

 

Besides the Band is far more organised than any of the mercenary bands. Mat always puts them into a solid defendable encampment. If all hell is breaking loose in Caemlyn the camp of the Band is likely to be the only bastion of order in the vicinity. I'd bet if there are any survivors at all from Caemlyn they'll be under the protection of the Band.

 

3. If Mat shows up to Merrilor, learns that someone is doing something about the dreamspike problem, and that Rand knows who his wife is, he might find it difficult to resist doing his duty and going to find Tuon. Obviously they got married for a reason, and this is it.

 

Does Rand even know? Tuon didn't tell him that, all she said is that Mat abducted her I believe, not that she married him.

 

 

Most importantly, Nicola's Foretelling indicates that Rand will die before a truce is accomplished with the Seanchan. I once thought that Rand would die at the end of TOM; when he didn't, I assumed it would happen near the beginning of AMOL. The Whelan cover seems to make that less likely, since it's definitely pre-resurrection, but it's still interesting that Rand apparently goes to Shayol Ghul without his truce. And difficult to figure out Rand's thought process. We knew that simply from the cover, but the Mat-Ebou Dar thing seems to add another element to it. It seems the kind of thing that Rand would do, sending Mat off to Tuon, but why wouldn't he wait for Mat to come back? Maybe Tuon won't let him leave? When does Mat go get the Horn? Will he make it in time to prevent the Tar Valon attack?

 

I doubt Tuon could prevent Mat from leaving. This late in the game there is no resisting the ta'veren. The Pattern will force them to be where they are needed. If Tuon tried some kind of catastrophe would probably hit Ebou Dar.

[Terez]

Spoilers from the Orbit cover blurb.

 

It's not incredibly clear whether the blurb is supposed to imply that Mat goes to Ebou Dar in the beginning of the book, but you would think they wouldn't skip important things. So, let's assume that it makes sense. There are a few details worth considering.

 

1. Caemlyn is probably going to be included in the area of the dreamspike at some point. If Grady can't Travel there, then Mat can't do anything about the battle. Or at least, he would have a hard time doing something about it. And they might not even have word of the battle, if no one can escape to spread word about it. Androl might come in there, but will he reach Merrilor?

 

The area of effect of the Dreamspike isn't large enough to cover both Caemlyn and the Black Tower. So if it gets moved to Caemlyn the BT will be freed.

 

I don't see how you can claim to know this when we know that it's adjustable and no limits were given as to its area. Obviously it does have limits, but we don't know what they are, and the tactical potential is difficult to ignore.

 

Why would Demandred put a tracer weave on Talmanes' pipe? He certainly could, but would he even bother? Is Talmanes important enough to warrant such attention?

 

Because he leads the Band in Mat's absence.

 

Besides the Band is far more organised than any of the mercenary bands.

 

How do you know? You don't know anything about them.

 

Does Rand even know?

 

Not yet.

 

I doubt Tuon could prevent Mat from leaving. This late in the game there is no resisting the ta'veren.

 

Mat is a very different kind of ta'veren than Rand, and sometimes resisting ta'veren is exactly what the Pattern wants.

[Finnssss22]

I doubt Tuon could prevent Mat from leaving. This late in the game there is no resisting the ta'veren. The Pattern will force them to be where they are needed. If Tuon tried some kind of catastrophe would probably hit Ebou Dar.

 

Terez already commented on this but it should also be noted that if anyone is capable of resisting a ta'veren, it's Tuon.

She already has in fact and one much stronger than Mat.

 

One does have to wonder just how strong in the Power she could be, something tells me it's in the Nynaeve to Sharina range.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Spoilers from the Orbit cover blurb.

 

It's not incredibly clear whether the blurb is supposed to imply that Mat goes to Ebou Dar in the beginning of the book, but you would think they wouldn't skip important things. So, let's assume that it makes sense. There are a few details worth considering.

 

1. Caemlyn is probably going to be included in the area of the dreamspike at some point. If Grady can't Travel there, then Mat can't do anything about the battle. Or at least, he would have a hard time doing something about it. And they might not even have word of the battle, if no one can escape to spread word about it. Androl might come in there, but will he reach Merrilor?

 

The area of effect of the Dreamspike isn't large enough to cover both Caemlyn and the Black Tower. So if it gets moved to Caemlyn the BT will be freed.

 

I don't see how you can claim to know this when we know that it's adjustable and no limits were given as to its area. Obviously it does have limits, but we don't know what they are, and the tactical potential is difficult to ignore.

 

Obviously I don't know, but I don't think it's likely that it can cover 6 leagues in diameter to cover both Caemlyn and the Black Tower.

 

Why would Demandred put a tracer weave on Talmanes' pipe? He certainly could, but would he even bother? Is Talmanes important enough to warrant such attention?

 

Because he leads the Band in Mat's absence.

 

And I repeat my question why would Talmanes and the Band warrant such attention? Yes, they are a capable army, but they are on the small side with their 30 or 40k I believe and without Mat not something a Forsaken has to keep an eye on. If Mat loses the Band he'll just command another army. He may in any case even if the Band does survive intact. He's the one who's most likely to have the supreme command over Rand's armies which will be around 1 million if not more.

 

Besides the Band is far more organised than any of the mercenary bands.

 

How do you know? You don't know anything about them.

 

Of course we do know. It was said quite often how good the Band has become and if you recall Elayne's POV of the other mercenaries they don't come off nearly as well.

The camp of the Band is fortified with palisades and trenches, the soldiers are trained to respond on short notice and quickly, they are all veterans of more pitched battles than any three mercenary bands, they are disciplined enough not to be drunk on duty they even have their own police force, the Redarms. Do you think any mercenary band is anywhere close? In terms of proficiency as soldiers the Band is right up there with Aiel, Seanchan and Borderlanders.

 

I doubt Tuon could prevent Mat from leaving. This late in the game there is no resisting the ta'veren.

 

Mat is a very different kind of ta'veren than Rand, and sometimes resisting ta'veren is exactly what the Pattern wants.

 

I didn't mean the effect Mat has on other people, but the the effect the Pattern has on Mat. We know Mat is required for the Last Battle and probably for most of the campaign against the Shadowspawn. Since Rand isn't likely to wait the Pattern will force Mat to be where he's needed and anyone who tries to resist its pull will suffer the consequences.

[fionwe1987]

Has anyone considered that the BT "resolution" we see in early aMoL (if there is even going to be one) may not be the final voctory over Taim's faction? What if it just ends up being a heroic escape of Pevara, Androl and some of the loyal contingent, with the bonded wives of the Asha'man outside (who would be used as hostages, otherwise)? The Aes Sedai outside might get involved too, and maybe a huge link of 72, led by Androl, will make a gateway that is able to break through the Dreamspike?

 

The point is, the "resoultion" may be a desperate escape that lands in Merrilor and tells the harrowing tale of the Black Tower being a nest of the Shadow.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Has anyone considered that the BT "resolution" we see in early aMoL (if there is even going to be one) may not be the final voctory over Taim's faction?

 

That is exactly what most of us have said. That these chapters at the start will not be the final resolution of Taim/Black Tower.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Has anyone considered that the BT "resolution" we see in early aMoL (if there is even going to be one) may not be the final voctory over Taim's faction?

 

That is exactly what most of us have said. That these chapters at the start will not be the final resolution of Taim/Black Tower.

 

I think a resonable assumption is that even if the light side wins the struggle all it will accomplish while killing some of them is force the majority of the Dreadlords to retreat. There is little doubt that there will be Asha'man fighting on the side of the Shadow throughout the entire war. Just like there will be Aes Sedai fighting for the Shadow.

[yoniy0]

We had a thread around here once, regarding the area of effect of the Dreamspike at Perrin's camp, and the possibility of the one at the BT affecting Caemlyn. I don't remember much about it, except that I think we reached the conclusion that it would be very possible indeed.

[Terez]

The perimeter Perrin measured was more than enough to cover the walled-in portion of the Black Tower. But it can be adjusted, and clearly Demandred's plans center on Caemlyn. Strategically the Black Tower is the most important place to block gateways, and they can't have expected to get away with that any more than a week or so, but it was necessary to turn as many channelers as possible to the Shadow. These people can't be slipped in among normal people; they're too obviously inhuman. But people will be trying to travel there. It would have been stupid to block gateways in Caemlyn before the moment the Shadowspawn started pouring out of the gateways.

[Maleshub]

One of the things that could possibly draw Mat to Ebou Dar (prematurely) is if Bode is collared by the Seanchan in the second attack on the WT.

[RandA lThor]

Ohhhhhh, that would really suck, that would definitely draw him. That would be really interesting. Not that I hate Bode or anything, but I actually want that to happen. It would be so cool for them to either have Mat barge in there and say something like that's my sister and then they all either feel bad for him or treat her with respect or disdain, or if word gets out that she is Mat's sister. Also, if she somehow knows about sul'dam learning how to channel, then that will be a big blow.