Egwene Appreciation Thread

[XXX]

my the debate took a whole new turn. XXX47, don't confuse the books with real life.

 

Oh you are right. If it was real world men will not quiver with fear under a glance by a woman.

[Suttree]

my the debate took a whole new turn. XXX47, don't confuse the books with real life.

 

Oh you are right. If it was real world men will not quiver with fear under a glance by a woman.

 

and the train wreck continues...

[Edynol]

Okay can we get of the man vs woman thing now? I thought this was about appreciating Egwene.

 

I know a lot of people dislike her, but I don't. Has she made mistakes? Yes. Everyone has. And while it is fun to see her set in her place here and there, like with Perrin that last time in TAR, she has done a lot, especially for someone so young. Remember she didn't ask to become Amyrlin, she was forced into it. So she made the best of it and made the Amyrlin stall her own and took charge. She is a young ruler, not totally seasoned in yet, like Elayne taking all those foolish chances. People say she bullies people, well no duh. Didn't Nynaeve raise her that way? She way the woman in charge of EF and browbeat everyone. Of course she's gonna retain some of that because it's the most effective way that she knows and it has worked thus far.

 

Think about it. She, a very young woman, shouldering more responsibility than anyone save Rand, ended the division of the Tower, cleansed it of the BA, and is now reaching out to change things for the better. And while I agree with what Rand is doing, I can understand her reaction and trying to stop him, he did just kinda spring this on her and gave no explanation. I think she's doing an awesome job.

[fionwe1987]

and the train wreck continues...

On the other hand, there's some ready reference when someone denies that there's some sexism in Egwene hate.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Think about it. She, a very young woman, shouldering more responsibility than anyone save Rand, ended the division of the Tower, cleansed it of the BA, and is now reaching out to change things for the better. And while I agree with what Rand is doing, I can understand her reaction and trying to stop him, he did just kinda spring this on her and gave no explanation. I think she's doing an awesome job.

 

Does Egwene really have to bear so much responsibility?

 

Yes, she is Amyrlin, but isn't that just the overexaggerated sense of self-importance most Aes Sedai which is the cause of most of what she does. Afterall what is she exactly responsible for as Amyrlin other than the other Aes Sedai?

Saidin is clean so she has no responsibility whatsoever for the male channelers. No Amyrlin has been the Keeper of the seals since the War of a Hundred Years, I believe. And it's the Dragon Reborn who is supposed to lead the forces of the Light in the war against the Shadow.

So everything else she does trying to manipulate the nations of the world, trying to put strings on Windfinders and WO, trying to "guide" Rand- just isn't her responsibility, but something she does nonetheless, because she wants to determine the future of the world and to increase the power of the Aes Sedai.

[Edynol]

Nah, sorry. That's not even close to it. The Aes Sedai are about maintaining peace and order while also regulating the use of the One Power so others don't go around taking advatnage of those who can't channel and such or using that power for devious means. And to say she isn't responsible for the men is also wrong. remember the Aes Sedai were once both men and women, and everyone who could channel was Aes Sedai or connected to the WT for a long time. Before the breaking, there were no Sea Folk or Seanchan damane or anything, and the Aiel Wise Ones were servant of the Aes Sedai, and who's to say their men didn't become AS as well, not much is known about that.

 

Egwene is trying to restore things to the way they once were, where all who can channel are connected to the WT in some way. If she doesn't then what's too keep another group of channelers like the BT or Seanchan with their damane rising up and challenging them for rule of the world and such? And reuniting the AS rebels with the WT AS was a huge undertaking and working to make sure the entire Red Ajah isn't spurned or disbanded for Elaida's mistakes and giving them a new role in life.

 

Then there's organizing the ploy in TAR where she defeated Messa. The Rand drops this bombshell on her with no explanation and she works to gather as many followers as she can do what she sees as best for the world. Don't be fooled, she has done a lot and she is only what, 20? Seems to me your letting your dislike of her cloud your judgement.

[avernite]

Well, I'll say for her: she learned.

 

At the start of Rand's arrival in ToM she thinks something like 'can't think of him as Rand, he's the DR, scary, crazy, waah!'.

Over the course of the conversation she indeed thinks 'no no that was wrong! I have to think of him as RAND or things go bad, that is why I am Amyrlin at this point.'

 

Of course, she does somewhat go back on that thought later, but if what she says at Merrilor is right (she thinks he wants her to stop him, cause he knows he's wrong) she'd be doing the right thing.

 

 

So, I'd say Egwene has plenty of bad moments, but she tends to (not does always) learn from them. She forced people to swear to her, then stopped that, She complains about bonding of AS by Asha'man then has the decency to be ashamed when Nynaeve points out the inverse argument could be made about Rand's kidnapping (even if she definately doesn't like it being pointed out and does have an excuse) etcetera.

I do think she could use a dose of Rand Sedai, just as Cadsuane could use that, but that doesn't mean either wasn't good before that. Just they could use some improvement.

 

(except when it comes to Gawyn, that was just a trainwreck, but Gawyn has the excuse that he couldn't browbeat her while she could and did browbeat him. Plus he saved her life.)

[Edynol]

Now that I agree with. Now I ain't an Eggy fanatic like some people, but I do like her. I'm gonna say it isn't amusing to see her get brought down a peg now and then, I think she deserves it, but I gotta give credit where it's due, and she has done a lot. A lot of Eggy haters also don't understand she is still barely an adult. Could you imagin the US breaking out into civil war and some 19 ywar old college student being pushed into the president's chair? Of course they are gonna make mistakes and get a big head from time to time, that's just natural. But if managed to somehow put an end to the war and division, I would big time impressed.

[XXX]

and the train wreck continues...

On the other hand, there's some ready reference when someone denies that there's some sexism in Egwene hate.

 

Really? I would not mind Tuon as the head of the world with the WT under her. How does that fit into the sexism argument?

[Maleshub]

Gatecrashed her tower? He asked to see the Amyrlin and was shielded and under an armed escort. How is that gatecrashing? Anyone has the right to ask to see the Amyrlin. State their reasons in a gentle fashion. Did Egwene explain to Rand where Salidar was? She didn't explain to him what was happening to the Tower. She didn't even explain to him why Moiraine told her to do things in the beginning of the books. Yeah, that would put Egwene's back up, but considering that she has been doing that for a way longer time, and Rand asked to see her, and that Rand couldn't tell her because the plan was made so that she couldn't be told.

 

Rand, you/he gate-crashed the WT on purpose. It was part of your/his ploy to "spill oil on the WT." There is no need denying it. The reference to anyone's right to see the Amyrlin concerns petitioners. Rand is not a petitioner. He's the flaming Dragon bloody Reborn! Look at it this way, the President of the United States would not drop unannounced, without a prior appointment, to meet the President of Russia. Diplomacy!

 

Your reference to Salidar is interesting since Egwene's motivation for hiding Salidar's location was her fear of how the rebel Aes Sedai's reaction. She didn't fear or distrust Rand. She was afraid that the rebels would send a delegation of 13 and destroy the chances of moving Salidar behind Rand.

 

In any case, trying to rationalize the "Amyrlin's Anger" meeting with past references won't work. Both are so different from their past. She is no longer an accepted or apprentice; and he's already wept on his grave (actually laughed, but that's another point). Both are world leaders, confident in their roles, and secure in their domains of power.

 

and the train wreck continues...

On the other hand, there's some ready reference when someone denies that there's some sexism in Egwene hate.

 

Really? I would not mind Tuon as the head of the world with the WT under her. How does that fit into the sexism argument?

 

Lol .... Would that be before she channels or after?

 

Seriously though, I think that if Fortuona is forced to channel, she would be a much better Amyrlin than Egwene. This coming from an Egwene fan; but I believe it. Fortuona was trained to become an Empress of a continent bigger than all of Randland! And she has slightly more willpower than Egwene, who herself isn't lacking in that area.

[Suttree]

Yes, she is Amyrlin, but isn't that just the overexaggerated sense of self-importance most Aes Sedai which is the cause of most of what she does. Afterall what is she exactly responsible for as Amyrlin other than the other Aes Sedai?

Saidin is clean so she has no responsibility whatsoever for the male channelers. No Amyrlin has been the Keeper of the seals since the War of a Hundred Years, I believe. And it's the Dragon Reborn who is supposed to lead the forces of the Light in the war against the Shadow.

So everything else she does trying to manipulate the nations of the world, trying to put strings on Windfinders and WO, trying to "guide" Rand- just isn't her responsibility, but something she does nonetheless, because she wants to determine the future of the world and to increase the power of the Aes Sedai.

 

Nope sorry that doesn't fly in the slightest. The AS have been the major force against the shadow for three thousand years. You can argue wether they still are best suited for the task but you can not question her intentions. We are hammered over the head by the duty Egwene feels in fighting the shadow and reforming the WT. It most certainly not because she onyl wants to increase the power of AS. I challenge you to provide even the slightest shred of evidence showing that to be the case. She flat out calls them fools and has already done more to change the WT culture than any other Amrylin.

 

As for tying stings to the WOs and WFs the alliance she formed is probably the most important of all her reforms. That alone will do more to integrate the WT back into the world and change their outlook than any of the others combined. I have asked time and time again for those who denounce it to explain how it gives the AS an unfair advantage or leg up in controlling the other groups. No one has ever even attempted to answer. It simply is not the reality of the situation.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have asked time and time again for those who denounce it to explain how it gives the AS an unfair advantage or leg up in controlling the other groups. No one has ever even attempted to answer. It simply is not the reality of the situation.

 

I hesitate to enter the discussion again. But I think I can point it out. Now this is not to say that I necessarily believe it to be so, but here is where I see that accusation stemming from. The bold bit applies to your question.

 

ToM 36

The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending on how sucessful we are. I accept neither title."

 

"We will lead them, Tukiri. We must become a source that women look to, all women. We achieve that by not holding too tightly, but by brining their channelers to train with us and by sending our most talented Accepted to become experts in the things they are best at."

 

"And if they are saying the same thing right now?" Leane asked softly, looking over her shoulder at the Wise ones, who were speaking in hushed tones on the far side of the room. "If they try to play us as we play them?"

 

"Then we have to play the best," Egwene said. "All of this is secondary, for now. We need unity against the Shadow and the Seanchan..."

 

Also, I am not sure why the debate over the power of the Aes Sedai is even there. Egwene sums up the situation herself quite well in the above quote. She is neither tyrant nor fool.

[Suttree]

I have asked time and time again for those who denounce it to explain how it gives the AS an unfair advantage or leg up in controlling the other groups. No one has ever even attempted to answer. It simply is not the reality of the situation.

 

I hesitate to enter the discussion again. But I think I can point it out. Now this is not to say that I necessarily believe it to be so, but here is where I see that accusation stemming from. The bold bit applies to your question.

 

ToM 36

The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending on how sucessful we are. I accept neither title."

 

"We will lead them, Tukiri. We must become a source that women look to, all women. We achieve that by not holding too tightly, but by brining their channelers to train with us and by sending our most talented Accepted to become experts in the things they are best at."

 

"And if they are saying the same thing right now?" Leane asked softly, looking over her shoulder at the Wise ones, who were speaking in hushed tones on the far side of the room. "If they try to play us as we play them?"

 

"Then we have to play the best," Egwene said. "All of this is secondary, for now. We need unity against the Shadow and the Seanchan..."

 

Also, I am not sure why the debate over the power of the Aes Sedai is even there. Egwene sums up the situation herself quite well in the above quote. She is neither tyrant nor fool.

 

The thing is that quote most frequently is used to support my point. All three groups will of course be jockeying for position within the framework of the alliance, hence the "play best" line. Anyone would be incredivly naive to think the WFs and Sorilea will not be doing so. Regardless there is nothing within the deal that gives the AS an unfair advantage or leg up in controlling the other groups. More importantly there are a number of reasons why it will change the culture for the better and get them closer to the ideal of what the WT can be.

[Barid Bel Medar]

As I said, it was not my belief, but I can see how it could be interpreted as such. I actually think Egwene was just payin lip service to Leane to stop any arguments. As she says later on, This is a secondary problem.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Nah, sorry. That's not even close to it. The Aes Sedai are about maintaining peace and order while also regulating the use of the One Power so others don't go around taking advatnage of those who can't channel and such or using that power for devious means. And to say she isn't responsible for the men is also wrong. remember the Aes Sedai were once both men and women, and everyone who could channel was Aes Sedai or connected to the WT for a long time. Before the breaking, there were no Sea Folk or Seanchan damane or anything, and the Aiel Wise Ones were servant of the Aes Sedai, and who's to say their men didn't become AS as well, not much is known about that.

 

But she isn't responsible for the men. Not anymore. Before they were a public menace and for the good of all the Aes Sedai had cause to deal with them. Now, that argument doesn't fly anymore. She has no authority over them and no right to interfere with them unless they become a public menace again. They didn't chose her as their leader and in the first place the position of Amyrlin is a post which did not exist before the Breaking.

 

Also the Aiel WO weren't servants of Aes Sedai there was no such position as Wise One. In the AOL the Aiel channelers were Aes Sedai. Men and women. Only after the Breaking did their female channelers become WO and the men started getting themselves killed.

 

 

Egwene is trying to restore things to the way they once were, where all who can channel are connected to the WT in some way. If she doesn't then what's too keep another group of channelers like the BT or Seanchan with their damane rising up and challenging them for rule of the world and such? And reuniting the AS rebels with the WT AS was a huge undertaking and working to make sure the entire Red Ajah isn't spurned or disbanded for Elaida's mistakes and giving them a new role in life.

 

Yes, she is trying to restore things as she sees them, but that doesn't change the fact that she wants to increase the power of the Aes Sedai. Wanting to increase ones power isn't a negative quality for a leader. But don't try to whitewash things. When it comes down to it Egwene wants to increase the power of the Aes Sedai, because that's what she thinks is best for the world.

 

 

Then there's organizing the ploy in TAR where she defeated Messa. The Rand drops this bombshell on her with no explanation and she works to gather as many followers as she can do what she sees as best for the world. Don't be fooled, she has done a lot and she is only what, 20? Seems to me your letting your dislike of her cloud your judgement.

 

You didn't read my post properly. I didn't say that Egwene was doing a bad job for her position, what I did say is that Egwene doesn't nearly bear so much responsibility as you seem to think she does or as she herself thinks she does. It's a fact that she has no responsibility for the male channelers as long as they don't join the Aes Sedai and as long as they don't try to subjugate part of the world or run amok causing chaos.

 

 

 

 

Yes, she is Amyrlin, but isn't that just the overexaggerated sense of self-importance most Aes Sedai which is the cause of most of what she does. Afterall what is she exactly responsible for as Amyrlin other than the other Aes Sedai?

Saidin is clean so she has no responsibility whatsoever for the male channelers. No Amyrlin has been the Keeper of the seals since the War of a Hundred Years, I believe. And it's the Dragon Reborn who is supposed to lead the forces of the Light in the war against the Shadow.

So everything else she does trying to manipulate the nations of the world, trying to put strings on Windfinders and WO, trying to "guide" Rand- just isn't her responsibility, but something she does nonetheless, because she wants to determine the future of the world and to increase the power of the Aes Sedai.

 

Nope sorry that doesn't fly in the slightest. The AS have been the major force against the shadow for three thousand years. You can argue wether they still are best suited for the task but you can not question her intentions. We are hammered over the head by the duty Egwene feels in fighting the shadow and reforming the WT. It most certainly not because she onyl wants to increase the power of AS. I challenge you to provide even the slightest shred of evidence showing that to be the case. She flat out calls them fools and has already done more to change the WT culture than any other Amrylin.

 

I didn't say she did those things only because she wanted to increase the power of the Aes Sedai. I'm pretty sure I said that she wants to determine the future of the world as well. Which may have been a bit too strong and perhaps I should have said guide or lead the world.

 

As for tying stings to the WOs and WFs the alliance she formed is probably the most important of all her reforms. That alone will do more to integrate the WT back into the world and change their outlook than any of the others combined. I have asked time and time again for those who denounce it to explain how it gives the AS an unfair advantage or leg up in controlling the other groups. No one has ever even attempted to answer. It simply is not the reality of the situation.

 

I'm not denouncing her, it is quite clear that she wants to increase the power of the Aes Sedai because she thinks they can do more good that way. But the fallacy is that power isn't good or bad. It just is and Amyrlin's have been using it for both just like anyone else.

 

I think you are just too focussed on the power aspect to see the rest of my arguments. Egwene may feel as if she's bearing the weight of the world, but that's just a delusion because Rand now bears the responsibilty to lead the forces of the Light against the Shadow. Someone like Elayne carries more responsibility than Egwene in my opinion. Elayne has a few million subjects, Egwene perhaps two thousand right now.

[XXX]

 

Really? I would not mind Tuon as the head of the world with the WT under her. How does that fit into the sexism argument?

 

Lol .... Would that be before she channels or after?

 

Seriously though, I think that if Fortuona is forced to channel, she would be a much better Amyrlin than Egwene. This coming from an Egwene fan; but I believe it. Fortuona was trained to become an Empress of a continent bigger than all of Randland! And she has slightly more willpower than Egwene, who herself isn't lacking in that area.

 

Do not care one way or the other on the use of the OP. I just find the WT a pathetic organization which should not exist in their current form. Ooops I think I just posted a sexist comment!!

[Edynol]

What makes you think she isn't responsible for male channelers? Give me a solid explanation. Because the have the Black Tower now and have created their own organization and have a leader? Nah. They are all pretty much just a new group of unbound male channelers being trained as weapons and that's it. They don't have ajahs or anything, they are just weapons, for the most part. What will happen after TG? Will they become mercenaries or hired hands and bounty hunters? Or even worse, will they try to take over the world for themselves?

 

Most likely Rand and Taim will be dead, so who's left to lead them? Logain? While he would indeed be the best choice, how do we know what all he'll do? He doesn't exactly love Aes Sedai, remember. He suffered for months after being severed at their hands, and while he might may very well have deep respect and gratitude to Nynaeve and all those in their little group for healing him, do really think he's gonna forgive the rest of them so quickly? For all the AS know, he might want to bit of revenge after TG. I don't think so, I think he has forgiven them for the most part or is at least not holding any grudges.

 

The thing is, the BT and the ashies stand as a major threat to them and the world, as they see it. It might not be immediate, there may very well be hundreds of years of peace with the two towers working together, but what happens in the future if they have a disagreement that escalates in both tower going to war? They could pretty much break the world again. The only way to ensure that doesn't happen is to bring the asha'man in to rejoin the Aes Sedai, making the tower completely whole for the 1st time in 3,000 or so years. So yes, she is responsible for the male channelers as Amyrlin.

 

Also, I think when Eggy was talking about leading them, she wasn't talking about ruling them, but guiding them. Like how you lead a horse to water or lead someone down the right path.

[XXX]

What makes you think she isn't responsible for male channelers? Give me a solid explanation. Because the have the Black Tower now and have created their own organization and have a leader? Nah. They are all pretty much just a new group of unbound male channelers being trained as weapons and that's it. They don't have ajahs or anything, they are just weapons, for the most part. What will happen after TG? Will they become mercenaries or hired hands and bounty hunters? Or even worse, will they try to take over the world for themselves?

 

Most likely Rand and Taim will be dead, so who's left to lead them? Logain? While he would indeed be the best choice, how do we know what all he'll do? He doesn't exactly love Aes Sedai, remember. He suffered for months after being severed at their hands, and while he might may very well have deep respect and gratitude to Nynaeve and all those in their little group for healing him, do really think he's gonna forgive the rest of them so quickly? For all the AS know, he might want to bit of revenge after TG. I don't think so, I think he has forgiven them for the most part or is at least not holding any grudges.

 

The thing is, the BT and the ashies stand as a major threat to them and the world, as they see it. It might not be immediate, there may very well be hundreds of years of peace with the two towers working together, but what happens in the future if they have a disagreement that escalates in both tower going to war? They could pretty much break the world again. The only way to ensure that doesn't happen is to bring the asha'man in to rejoin the Aes Sedai, making the tower completely whole for the 1st time in 3,000 or so years. So yes, she is responsible for the male channelers as Amyrlin.

 

Also, I think when Eggy was talking about leading them, she wasn't talking about ruling them, but guiding them. Like how you lead a horse to water or lead someone down the right path.

 

The AM may want to lead Egwene and the AS like how a horse is led to water. What is good for the goose is good for the gander?

 

Egwene has no way to enforce her "supposed" authority among the AM.

[randsc]

XXX, your understanding of human history is about as accurate as your interpretation of the books, which is to say, not at all. Male-dominated social hierarchies are an incredibly recent development. For most of human history, the evidence suggest that we lived in small nomadic family-based societies led by the women, not the men. Modern studies of "primitive" cultures substantiates this. Perhaps the best example is the Iroquois Nation, the loose confederation of Native American tribes that lived in the East Coast. I'll give you the quote from Wiki, but you can find the same evidence elsewhere, if you desire.

 

women held property and hereditary leadership passed through their lines. They held dwellings, horses and farmed land, and a woman's property before marriage stayed in her possession without being mixed with that of her husband. They had separate roles but real power in the nations. The work of a woman's hands was hers to do with as she saw fit. At marriage, a young couple lived in the longhouse of the wife's family. A woman choosing to divorce a shiftless or otherwise unsatisfactory husband was able to ask him to leave the dwelling and take his possessions with him.^[36] The children of the marriage belonged to their mother's clan and gained their social status through hers. Her brothers were important teachers and mentors to the children, especially introducing boys to men's roles and societies. The clans were matrilineal, that is, clan ties were traced through the mother's line. If a couple separated, the woman kept the children.^[37] The chief of a clan could be removed at any time by a council of the women elders of that clan. The chief's sister was responsible for nominating his successor.^[37]

Emphasis mine

 

Similar matriarchal systems are much more common in pre- or proto-agricultural societies than patriarchies. Only when a society becomes fully agricultural, and the defense of productive land or the conquest of other's land becomes the dominant social concern do patriarchies dominate over matriarchies, and then usually only to the extent that said society is militarized. And there's some very simple reasons for this. Women are just as socially competent as men (possibly more) and just as intelligent. The difference between a young healthy male's physical prowess is not much greater than a young, healthy female's, and the fragility of both is sufficient to counter what difference does exist. And women live longer than men, so they get to be the elders of a society and the repository of social wisdom to be passed down much more often than men do.

 

What's sexist about your take on the female-dominated cultures of Randland is your notion that such dominance is not normal or natural. First of all, the term "natural" has no meaning when applied to human society. Any society humans form is "natural" insofar as it is an expression of the "natures" of the individuals in it, and it is contrived and artificial insofar as it is created and maintained by the work and planning of human beings. Second, you're just wrong in thinking that matriarchal societies are somehow not normal or worse than patriarchies.

 

Absolute BS. Anthropologists speak of the "universal patriarchy" for a reason.

 

"Similar matriarchal systems are much more common in pre- or proto-agricultural societies than patriarchies." There is virtually no evidence of this. The Iroquois are cited so frequently not because they are "perhaps the best example," but rather because they were the exception to the rule.

 

"Only when a society becomes fully agricultural, and the defense of productive land or the conquest of other's land becomes the dominant social concern do patriarchies dominate over matriarchies, and then usually only to the extent that said society is militarized." Even though this can be criticized from many angles, say that it is true. So what? Rand-land is fully agricultural, and militarized. So this does nothing to disprove XXX's point, which is about Rand-land.

 

"The difference between a young healthy male's physical prowess is not much greater than a young, healthy female's, and the fragility of both is sufficient to counter what difference does exist." A PC absurdity, that I have to live with results of every day, in my job. The physical differences are actually fairly profound. In the entire history of my department, exactly two women were hired under the same physical standards as men. Only when the CPAT was "re-normed" to allow women to be held to a lower standard did women start making it through the hiring process. And the result has been more injuries, inequitable distribution of both work and risk, and significantly more disability payouts.

 

"And women live longer than men, so they get to be the elders of a society and the repository of social wisdom to be passed down much more often than men do." Not in a pre-industrial society, they don't. Except when there is a period of significant and extended warfare that kills off a lot of young men. Otherwise, deaths in childbirth result in a life expectancy for women that is no higher, and usually lower, than that of men.

[Edynol]

The AM may want to lead Egwene and the AS like how a horse is led to water. What is good for the goose is good for the gander?

 

Egwene has no way to enforce her "supposed" authority among the AM.

That has nothing to do with anything. We aren't talking about what she is capable of or what the AM might want to do or not do. And we are not talking about Eggy enforcing any authority over the AM, we are talking about her bringing them in to accept her authority and become Aes Sedai for the sake of unity. Perhaps make Logain her partner or something, create a new position just above Keeper, like Watcher of the Seals or Master/Mistress of the Tower, who would have just about as much power as Amyrlin, but still have to answer to him or her. Any number of things to ensure their agreement and equality.

[XXX]

The AM may want to lead Egwene and the AS like how a horse is led to water. What is good for the goose is good for the gander?

 

Egwene has no way to enforce her "supposed" authority among the AM.

That has nothing to do with anything. We aren't talking about what she is capable of or what the AM might want to do or not do. And we are not talking about Eggy enforcing any authority over the AM, we are talking about her bringing them in to accept her authority and become Aes Sedai for the sake of unity. Perhaps make Logain her partner or something, create a new position just above Keeper, like Watcher of the Seals or Master/Mistress of the Tower, who would have just about as much power as Amyrlin, but still have to answer to him or her. Any number of things to ensure their agreement and equality.

 

There is no equality if Egwene is in charge. SO it is just not going to happen unless the AM are completely mad. BTW Logain does not look like he will accept anything less than equality when he refused Rand's request to unbond the AS saying that he would do it only when the AS unbound the AM.

[randsc]

There is no equality if Egwene is in charge. SO it is just not going to happen unless the AM are completely mad. BTW Logain does not look like he will accept anything less than equality when he refused Rand's request to unbond the AS saying that he would do it only when the AS unbound the AM.

Do you even think before you type? I wouldn't expect Logain to accept anything less than equality. That is what Eggy would offer. Give me one solid reason why there would be no equality with Egwene in charge.

 

By definition, if she were "in charge" there would be no equality. Only if authority were shared would there be equality. Which is exactly what I think will happen.

[randsc]

The AM may want to lead Egwene and the AS like how a horse is led to water. What is good for the goose is good for the gander?

 

Egwene has no way to enforce her "supposed" authority among the AM.

That has nothing to do with anything. We aren't talking about what she is capable of or what the AM might want to do or not do. And we are not talking about Eggy enforcing any authority over the AM, we are talking about her bringing them in to accept her authority and become Aes Sedai for the sake of unity. Perhaps make Logain her partner or something, create a new position just above Keeper, like Watcher of the Seals or Master/Mistress of the Tower, who would have just about as much power as Amyrlin, but still have to answer to him or her. Any number of things to ensure their agreement and equality.

 

That's not equality. Why not simply equality? Egwene and Logain as co-rulers? That would be far more in keeping with the overall theme of the series.

[XXX]

There is no equality if Egwene is in charge. SO it is just not going to happen unless the AM are completely mad. BTW Logain does not look like he will accept anything less than equality when he refused Rand's request to unbond the AS saying that he would do it only when the AS unbound the AM.

[PA removed] I wouldn't expect Logain to accept anything less than equality. That is what Eggy would offer. Give me one solid reason why there would be no equality with Egwene in charge.

 

Logain below Egwene in a halfway keeper position as you suggested is no equality. Egwene with no authority over Logain or vice versa is equality.

[XXX]

[PA removed] Having one leader, male or female, has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with maintaining structure. Are you gonna say that when LT was Amyrlin there was no equality for female AS? That every time a new Amyrlin of a different gender was appointed the equality of the genders shifted? Amyrlin is an elected position, so with men joining the AS, they would have equal rights in everything, including becoming Amyrlin. it would be foolish to give anyone, male or female, equal power in ruling after years of division. Trust has to be earned first, has nothing to do with equality.

 

So will Egwene be voted on again for the Amyrlin position with the former AM now AS having equal votes as the AS?. Then and only then will there be equality.

 

BTW LTT was never Amyrlin, that position did not even exist.