Egwene Appreciation Thread

[Edynol]

Yes, Taim was wrong, but he didn't know that. Remember, Mo and Siu know that once the real Dragon proclaims himself, there will be no more false ones, but does everyone else know that? Does any but those select few, in fact, know it? The prophecies, as far as I know, don't say anything about there being no more false dragons once the real once proclaims, unless it is cryptic and could be misinterpreted. So if Logain didn't know this, a dozen other false dragons could have popped up and he still think he was the one.

[wookiebear]

Considering this, and Taim's conviction that if he had "won out" then he would have been proclaimed born on DM with hosanna's sung by thousands I am not sure that prophecy is as firmly followed as we, as readers, assume.

 

Based on all info in text and and RJ's quotes Taim was absolutely wrong about this...

 

yup, not disagreeing there at all. Just saying..... if I suspend my disbelief, perceive this as the "real world" do these characters believe they are the dragon or not?

 

I think they do because why would someone be the False Dragon?

 

The True Dragon or Dragon Reborn is the waited upon hero of the age, the second coming of death and destruction that heralds the ending of one age and the potential beginning of another. The False Dragon is simply that, False. A boogeyman, fake and conniving, bringing death and destruction for no purpose save that they can (this is perception, leaving the Pattern and Wheel of Time out of it for the moment )

 

Personality wise I could believe Taim might go for this, but Logain and all the other False Dragons throughout the ages? I think those who are chosen by the Pattern to be FD believe they are the Dragon, at least until they are brought down. Otherwise IMO it would not make any sense for there to be false dragons, for all know what happens to the false dragons, 'cause it has been happening for at least 1000 years consistently, and I don't think many would volunteer to be hunted throughout the land until they bring you down and you are disposed of

[Thrasymachus]

This is getting rather far afield from the topic, but I reckon the False Dragons believe that the title of "The Dragon" is something that can be claimed. So you're born a male sparker in the Third Age, prior to the cleansing. You've survived the "learning to channel" phase of your development, and recognize that you're capable of channeling Tainted Saidin. Here are your choices: 1.)Try to hide out and channel as little as possible. Results: If you succeed, eventually you'll go mad and start rotting away. Once you go mad, Aes Sedai and everybody else will hunt you down and kill you. If you fail, you'll be caught by the Aes Sedai and gentled, then waste away not wanting to live anymore for a few weeks to a year or so. 2.)Proclaim yourself the Dragon Reborn. Results: If you are The Dragon, then you'll usher in the Last Battle and die to save the world. It's a crappy job and somebody's got to do it, but at least you'll die a hero. If you're not The Dragon, then you'll wreak a lot of havoc for a while, exacting some vengeance on the crappy world that condemned you to this crappy fate. Eventually, you'll be caught and gentled and/or executed. And since most of the guys who make it to the point where they have to make this choice will still be young men, so if they're self-conscious at all about it, I reckon they'll tend to take the "it's better to burn out than fade away" approach.

[XXX]

One of the reasons Logain is given a pass is he is atleast till now loyal to the Dragon in marked contrast to Taim.

[1Brotherbill]

 

Moving too slow? They have reunified the WT, purged the BA, inititated numerous reforms, repulsed the Seanchan and evicted a forsaken. The WT story arc is just about complete and they are ready for TG. What tradition will she have to battle for the AS to fight in the LB? You seriously may be the very first person I have seen here or on Theoryland that thinks they will sit it out...

 

It's simple really. Everyone is standing in the Field. Egwene, Matt, Perrin, Moraine, Nyenieve, Rand, Thom, Elayne, all the leaders of the world and Rand says, I'm going to break the last seal clear the breach then seal up the prison. All I need is two AS to help.

 

Egwene says are you crazy. I forbid any AS from helping you in this action.

 

Nyenieve says I'll help you Rand.

 

Elayne says I'll help but I can't channel.

 

Avienda says I'll help you near sister you need not hurt the children. Go drink some goat milk.

 

Everyone else is shocked because they realize that Rand is Elaynes childrens father.

 

Egwene says if you two help him you will never be AS.

 

Nyenieve says get me a willow switch time for some Wisdom beat down.

 

Avienda says you don't control me Egwene.

 

Rand and his two AS go off and seal up the prison. Story wrapped up.

 

WT sits out TG.

[Durinax]

I think there is a good chance of some funny business happening with egwene and the tower. I refuse to believe that all the 'gar did was give egwene headaches

[fionwe1987]

It's simple really. Everyone is standing in the Field. Egwene, Matt, Perrin, Moraine, Nyenieve, Rand, Thom, Elayne, all the leaders of the world and Rand says, I'm going to break the last seal clear the breach then seal up the prison. All I need is two AS to help.

He clearly needs more than two AS.

Egwene says are you crazy. I forbid any AS from helping you in this action.

 

Nyenieve says I'll help you Rand.

I always wonder why people assume this. So far, we saw Nynaeve send Lan off to his duty alone because she felt it was more important that she stay by Rand and protect him from Alivia. So she puts her duty to Rand above her marriage.

 

Then, in ToM, she goes to the Tower when commanded, and stays there. Rand is still under "threat" from Alivia, but Nynaeve goes anyway. While I don't think this means she puts the Tower over Rand, its hardly indicative that she'll easily shrug off the Tower to follow Rand.

 

Elayne says I'll help but I can't channel.

Someone clearly didn't read ToM.

[RandA lThor]

It's simple really. Everyone is standing in the Field. Egwene, Matt, Perrin, Moraine, Nyenieve, Rand, Thom, Elayne, all the leaders of the world and Rand says, I'm going to break the last seal clear the breach then seal up the prison. All I need is two AS to help.

He clearly needs more than two AS.

Egwene says are you crazy. I forbid any AS from helping you in this action.

 

Nyenieve says I'll help you Rand.

I always wonder why people assume this. So far, we saw Nynaeve send Lan off to his duty alone because she felt it was more important that she stay by Rand and protect him from Alivia. So she puts her duty to Rand above her marriage.

 

Then, in ToM, she goes to the Tower when commanded, and stays there. Rand is still under "threat" from Alivia, but Nynaeve goes anyway. While I don't think this means she puts the Tower over Rand, its hardly indicative that she'll easily shrug off the Tower to follow Rand.

 

Elayne says I'll help but I can't channel.

Someone clearly didn't read ToM.

 

Someone is forgetting about a possible moiraine and alivia, along with a Nynaeve who hates most Aes sedai and their attitude and took advice from rand to not turn into them, along with an Elayne who is in love with him and can channel somewhat, some aiel wise ones and Aviendha. He will have more than 2, but he will need a lot of support to not be branded as a breaker of the world.

[fionwe1987]

 

Someone is forgetting about a possible moiraine and alivia, along with a Nynaeve who hates most Aes sedai and their attitude and took advice from rand to not turn into them, along with an Elayne who is in love with him and can channel somewhat, some aiel wise ones and Aviendha. He will have more than 2, but he will need a lot of support to not be branded as a breaker of the world.

What exactly is your point? Elayne has stated straight out that she opposes Rand's plan and thinks it foolish. She isn't likely to lie. Nynaeve may hate many Aes Sedai, but she respects and loves Egwene, which is what matters. Aviendha may side with Rand, but that depends totally on his plan for the Aiel and the Seanchan. The Wise Ones agree with Egwene, and will do so more strongly once she reveals her Dream.

 

And however many Aes Sedai Rand has loyal to him/is in a position to compel, they aren't close to enough to tackle the LB. He certainly can't make do with two!

[Suttree]

Moving too slow? They have reunified the WT, purged the BA, inititated numerous reforms, repulsed the Seanchan and evicted a forsaken. The WT story arc is just about complete and they are ready for TG. What tradition will she have to battle for the AS to fight in the LB? You seriously may be the very first person I have seen here or on Theoryland that thinks they will sit it out...

 

It's simple really. Everyone is standing in the Field. Egwene, Matt, Perrin, Moraine, Nyenieve, Rand, Thom, Elayne, all the leaders of the world and Rand says, I'm going to break the last seal clear the breach then seal up the prison. All I need is two AS to help.

 

Egwene says are you crazy. I forbid any AS from helping you in this action.

 

Nyenieve says I'll help you Rand.

 

Elayne says I'll help but I can't channel.

 

Avienda says I'll help you near sister you need not hurt the children. Go drink some goat milk.

 

Everyone else is shocked because they realize that Rand is Elaynes childrens father.

 

Egwene says if you two help him you will never be AS.

 

Nyenieve says get me a willow switch time for some Wisdom beat down.

 

Avienda says you don't control me Egwene.

 

Rand and his two AS go off and seal up the prison. Story wrapped up.

 

WT sits out TG.

 

First off IF Min has found a way to seal the bore, and Rand lays out a rational plan as to why he needs to do this what makes you think Egwene would oppose him?

 

Second are you confusing sealing the bore and TG? So are you not counting the more than 1/3 of the last book that BS said will be taken up by fighting and battles? By your definition Mat, Perrin and everyone else will be sitting out the Last Battle as well. We know all of them will have a large role to play looking forward. All I know is I can't wait to discuss this with you post aMoL.

[kght22]

One of the reasons Logain is given a pass is he is atleast till now loyal to the Dragon in marked contrast to Taim.

logain is likely looking to gain for himself, but he made a promise to egwene, and like any good noble his honor is in his promises. being a traitor, or a darkfriend from the start is unlikely. he will fulfill his promise to egwene to serve rand just like lan would in the same situation. so his pass isn't just given, it remains to be earned, but likely will be.

[1Brotherbill]

It's simple really. Everyone is standing in the Field. Egwene, Matt, Perrin, Moraine, Nyenieve, Rand, Thom, Elayne, all the leaders of the world and Rand says, I'm going to break the last seal clear the breach then seal up the prison. All I need is two AS to help.

He clearly needs more than two AS.

 

 

Really only needs two with the sword right? Min has the viewing about Rand standing on a hill with a sword made of blinding light. Got to assume it's Collander.

 

As far as Moraine helping out. I figure she is kind of like Suian right now. Not really strong in many aspects. So why bring her along.

 

And I didn't say that TG and sealing the bore are one and the same. Two different aspects of the book I would hope. Sealing the bore. Then the "Last Battle" of the age. Where everyone in the light hunts down and kills all that is evil.

 

But it's all theory right?

[wookiebear]

It's simple really. Everyone is standing in the Field. Egwene, Matt, Perrin, Moraine, Nyenieve, Rand, Thom, Elayne, all the leaders of the world and Rand says, I'm going to break the last seal clear the breach then seal up the prison. All I need is two AS to help.

He clearly needs more than two AS.

 

 

Really only needs two with the sword right? Min has the viewing about Rand standing on a hill with a sword made of blinding light. Got to assume it's Collander.

 

As far as Moraine helping out. I figure she is kind of like Suian right now. Not really strong in many aspects. So why bring her along.

 

And I didn't say that TG and sealing the bore are one and the same. Two different aspects of the book I would hope. Sealing the bore. Then the "Last Battle" of the age. Where everyone in the light hunts down and kills all that is evil.

 

But it's all theory right?

 

From what I remember of the last book Moraine has a <something> angreal at this time the allows her to channel more than any unenhanced Aes Sedai. This makef her a viable companion for Rand at the bore. If he takes Mor and Nyn he has two powerful channelers he trusts, which with the Callendor is an real concern.

 

Something just occurred to me that some aspects of Callandor are very similar to the male version of the a'dam. Makes me wonder if this is a dark form of Callandor, created to control the DR in a circle of three by the forces of shadow.

 

just a thought out of nowhere in particular

[Suttree]

And I didn't say that TG and sealing the bore are one and the same. Two different aspects of the book I would hope. Sealing the bore. Then the "Last Battle" of the age. Where everyone in the light hunts down and kills all that is evil.

 

See now you have changed your whole point dramatically. What you said before was...

 

So leading AS into a battle to help others out isn't a show of force it would be supplying aid. So they probably won't help at TG. They will sit around trying to figure out how to rescue the captured AS from the Seanchan because a captured AS isn't right.

 

In addition, for the two women helping Rand you may want to check out the aMoL cover art thread thread.

[XXX]

Ny right after her AS test in ToM says flat out that she is going with Rand to seal the bore as she promised him when an AS says that she is not going. Anyway Rand has 30 AS sworn to him .Logain has another 50 sisters compelled/bonded to his men..so that is 80 AS not under Egwene's control. Plus there is the WO's and the Sea Folk both of who Rand is chief of. So unlike what happened with LTT and LT, Rand has access to plenty of female chaneelers if he needs any to seal the bore regardless of what Egwene decides.

 

So it is not like Egwene holds any cards to prevent Rand from breaking the seals. She does not know where the seals are and cannot prevent all the women from helping Rand.

[RandA lThor]

Enough female for 100 Companions of each men and women.

[fionwe1987]

Nynaeve promised Rand help to Seal the Bore. That is entirely different from Breaking the Seals. Rand says he wants to break them at SG, and presumably needs women with him then too.

 

As for the women sworn to him... sure, Rand can compel them to go against their instinct to support the Amyrlin Seat. But will he? How useful are reluctant companions when you're going to Shayol Ghul?

 

And we don't know about the Sea Folk, but the Wise Ones are worried about the breaking of the Seals, and seem to be on Egwene's side.

[XXX]

I do not think Rand needs anyone to actually break the seals. And he is going to break them before he goes to SG because in ToM he explains that though there is a bit more of risk with the DO not constrained they will have to take it. So it stands to reason that he is not going to do both at the same time.

 

The seals are going to be broken end of story nothing Egwene or anyone else can do about it. So the question is who does Rand need to reseal the bore. He needs atleast 2 females to wield callandor if that is the way to go. He has Ny who has promised to come, Alivia the strongest woman on the side of the light, 80 bonded/sworn AS,Aiel WO's and Sea Folk windfinders. Quite a choice so it is not like Egwene can withhold support as a leverage to stop him from breaking the seals.

 

After the seals are broken it is not like the WT can pick up their ball and go home anyway. The Trollocs are coming so it is fight or be cooked!!

[fionwe1987]

I do not think Rand needs anyone to actually break the seals. And he is going to break them before he goes to SG because in ToM he explains that though there is a bit more of risk with the DO not constrained they will have to take it. So it stands to reason that he is not going to do both at the same time.

Well, if you're right, Rand is plain insane:

 

"Tomorrow, I meet with the monarchs of the world. After that, I am going to go to Shayol Ghul and break the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. Good day."

 

He's going to break the Seals at SG. Which means he needs way more than two women/80 reluctant women with him.

The seals are going to be broken end of story nothing Egwene or anyone else can do about it. So the question is who does Rand need to reseal the bore. He needs atleast 2 females to wield callandor if that is the way to go. He has Ny who has promised to come, Alivia the strongest woman on the side of the light, 80 bonded/sworn AS,Aiel WO's and Sea Folk windfinders. Quite a choice so it is not like Egwene can withhold support as a leverage to stop him from breaking the seals.

 

After the seals are broken it is not like the WT can pick up their ball and go home anyway. The Trollocs are coming so it is fight or be cooked!!

Yeah, because 80 reluctant Aes Sedai is what Rand wants when he goes to break the Seals! And not even Nynaeve has promised to go with him to SG to do that.

[cookiecrisp]

I think Egwene realizes that the White Tower is nowhere near powerful or relevant enough to effect Rand's plans. The only faction that near rivals Rand's forces are the Seanchan who control great military strength and supposedly a vast population if their holdings across the sea can be counted, but they don't really have a spot in Rand's heart. The Aiel probably are closest to Rand now, but they'll allow him to do anything to meet their destiny. I think Egwene's going to pull off one of here feats of politics (or lolplot whatever you want to call it) and actually make a united front to challenge Rand.

 

1 faction alone can't call the bluff "I'm going let you all die if I don't get it my way." However, the Dragon's Peace can be negotiated over with Rand with the Seanchan, Aiel, Sea Folk, White Tower, Borderlanders, Ashaman, Elayne's Kingdoms (court of the Sun or w/e) and Rand's current kindgoms (compact of the Gryphon?) have something to say about it. Rand can move forward and attempt to win the last battle without the Seanchan or the White Tower or perhaps even the Aiel, but there's no point in him trying to win TG alone for only himself.

[XXX]

I do not think Rand needs anyone to actually break the seals. And he is going to break them before he goes to SG because in ToM he explains that though there is a bit more of risk with the DO not constrained they will have to take it. So it stands to reason that he is not going to do both at the same time.

Well, if you're right, Rand is plain insane:

 

"Tomorrow, I meet with the monarchs of the world. After that, I am going to go to Shayol Ghul and break the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. Good day."

 

He's going to break the Seals at SG. Which means he needs way more than two women/80 reluctant women with him.

The seals are going to be broken end of story nothing Egwene or anyone else can do about it. So the question is who does Rand need to reseal the bore. He needs atleast 2 females to wield callandor if that is the way to go. He has Ny who has promised to come, Alivia the strongest woman on the side of the light, 80 bonded/sworn AS,Aiel WO's and Sea Folk windfinders. Quite a choice so it is not like Egwene can withhold support as a leverage to stop him from breaking the seals.

 

After the seals are broken it is not like the WT can pick up their ball and go home anyway. The Trollocs are coming so it is fight or be cooked!!

Yeah, because 80 reluctant Aes Sedai is what Rand wants when he goes to break the Seals! And not even Nynaeve has promised to go with him to SG to do that.

 

Why would he be insane? the bore was open for many many years in the AoL without catastrophic effects.

 

There is going to be no war in the traditional sense at SG. I extremely doubt Rand is gathering an army to go to SG. The battles will be in the rest of Randland.

 

And Rand has more than 80 women channelers. He has the WO and Windfinders who he is the chief of. And if he makes peace with the Seachan he has hundreds of more women channelers.

[XXX]

I think Egwene realizes that the White Tower is nowhere near powerful or relevant enough to effect Rand's plans. The only faction that near rivals Rand's forces are the Seanchan who control great military strength and supposedly a vast population if their holdings across the sea can be counted, but they don't really have a spot in Rand's heart. The Aiel probably are closest to Rand now, but they'll allow him to do anything to meet their destiny. I think Egwene's going to pull off one of here feats of politics (or lolplot whatever you want to call it) and actually make a united front to challenge Rand.

 

1 faction alone can't call the bluff "I'm going let you all die if I don't get it my way." However, the Dragon's Peace can be negotiated over with Rand with the Seanchan, Aiel, Sea Folk, White Tower, Borderlanders, Ashaman, Elayne's Kingdoms (court of the Sun or w/e) and Rand's current kindgoms (compact of the Gryphon?) have something to say about it. Rand can move forward and attempt to win the last battle without the Seanchan or the White Tower or perhaps even the Aiel, but there's no point in him trying to win TG alone for only himself.

 

I wonder why Rand thinks he can blackmail everyone into agreeing to the Dragon's Peace. What else can he do if people call his bluff?He holds no cards there. Same as Egwene trying to stop Rand from breaking the seals.

[fionwe1987]

Why would he be insane?

I didn't say he was. You, however, said that it "stand to reason" that he won't break the Seals at SG. That isn't true, however, so by your logic, Rand is doing something unreaosnable/insane.

the bore was open for many many years in the AoL without catastrophic effects.

How can you possibly know this? The 100 years before the War of the Power was known as the Collapse, when the DO's presence was enough to cause the degradation of even as advanced a society as the AoLs. How well can the Third Age stand it?

There is going to be no war in the traditional sense at SG. I extremely doubt Rand is gathering an army to go to SG. The battles will be in the rest of Randland.

Right. So the huge masses of Shadowspawn, the Foresaken and the Dreadlords are just going to oblige Rand and attack elsewhere, allowing him to approach SG unimpeded?

And Rand has more than 80 women channelers. He has the WO and Windfinders who he is the chief of.

And both the WO and WF have shown themselves to be capable of opposing him if they think him wrong. The WO agreed with Egwene's assessment of Rand's plan, remember?

And if he makes peace with the Seachan he has hundreds of more women channelers.

Except Egwene's Dream indicates there's be a Seanchan woman with her, and other women, confronting Rand.

[fionwe1987]

I wonder why Rand thinks he can blackmail everyone into agreeing to the Dragon's Peace. What else can he do if people call his bluff?He holds no cards there. Same as Egwene trying to stop Rand from breaking the seals.

Yeah... and people assume Merrilor is a foregone conclusion.

[XXX]

 

Except Egwene's Dream indicates there's be a Seanchan woman with her, and other women, confronting Rand.

 

What dream is that I only a remember a dream of a seachan woman saving Egwene with the tower about to collapse. What part of it is confronting Rand?