The fight for Tar Valon

[Suttree]

He in fact has nothing to do with the city defences. I believe that falls to captain chubain (I think thats his name).\

 

ToM

Gawyn waited. The walls were papered with maps of Tar Valon, Andor, Cairhien and surrounding regions. Many bore recent notations in red chalk. Bryne was preparing for war. The notations made it clear he felt he'd eventually have to defend Tar Valon itself against Trollocs.

 

Chubain focuses on the WT. Byrne most certainly is playing a large role in the defense of the city. Regardless he would be hard pressed to make a differene agains the Seanchan.

[TootThatHorn]

He in fact has nothing to do with the city defences. I believe that falls to captain chubain (I think thats his name).\

 

ToM

Gawyn waited. The walls were papered with maps of Tar Valon, Andor, Cairhien and surrounding regions. Many bore recent notations in red chalk. Bryne was preparing for war. The notations made it clear he felt he'd eventually have to defend Tar Valon itself against Trollocs.

 

Chubain focuses on the WT. Byrne most certainly is playing a large role in the defense of the city. Regardless he would be hard pressed to make a differene agains the Seanchan.

it sounds like bryne just assumes he is going to be fighting a superior force (in numbers only, the guy is a genius) so he will be fighting on his heels the whole time. he is expecting a slow aggressive retreat that will end being holed up in tar valon and fending a seige. think end of "the patriot", best example i can come up with without referencing lord of the rings lol its a pretty good strategy to try and dwindle the your enemys forces and not be overwhelmed.

[RandA lThor]

Bryne definitely will have to fight for Tar Valon. After all the maps that he has made and all the plans, he will be instrumental in defending Tar Valon, especially as one of the great captains. He also has little else to do in Tar Valon.

[XXX]

What I think will happen is that trollocs will come through the nice unguarded waygate near Tar Valon and attack the WT. The AS will be reeling from the onslaught even with Egwene running back from FOM with the rest of the AS. The Seachan arrive to do their attack but seeing the trollocs they join with the AS and save the WT. That would satisfy the Egwene's dream of the white tower shaking and she been saved by a Seachan woman.

 

I think Rand,Mat and Elayne will all head to Camelyn to save Andor. I can't see Camelyn fighting off the assault without the DR and his Aiel in action.

[Aulduron]

Chubain and Adelorna were shamed in the raid. They all know the Seanchan have travelling. I don't think they'll be caught unawares. I don't know how capable the Aes Sedai are with their wards, but we've seen what Rand and the Forsaken can do. They should make a law against gateways inside the tower, and weave wards that sound alarms whenever, and wherever, a gateway is opened. Weaves that shield chanellers or open any adam are probably too intricate, and weaves that blast them may be too dangerous, but bright lights and loud noises would alert defenders to their positions, and might disorient attackers.

 

The towers biggest advantage is that they can link, while damane can't. Egwene showed us that linked circles can easily defeat individual damane, especially if they take those angreal and sa'angreal out of storage. A circle or two, with guards with them, could probably free more Aes Sedai than they're forced to kill.

 

For a twist, this battle should happen at the same time as Caemlyn, and while Matt comes for the Horn. Any Seanchan that are captured can be sent to Caemlyn and told "fight or die".

[baalsmistress]

I consider it entirely possible that the thought that the seanchan have channelling simply hasn't occured to the AS. Even if they do take on board that they have the technology, the AS really do not have the experience of integrating channelling into battle that the seanchan do.

 

The seanchan on the other hand, I can see being far far faster to grasp the potential for the use of travelling for both strategic and tactical gain. The Randland armies will likely see it as a means to deliver troops to a place where a traditional battle can be fought. I think the seanchan will be much more innovative.

 

caveat: Mat is an exception, as is Ituralde

[fionwe1987]

The Tower has another great advantage this time: numbers. Plus, the Aes Sedai themselves can all Travel, meaning they won't be forced to face a surprise attack dead on. They can retreat, regroup and form circles, then attack where they please.

 

And the Tower is aware the Seanchan have Traveling. At least, Egwene is. And you'd be a fool to assume Bryne doesn't know. So they should be well covered in the "being prepared" department.

[GB]

assuming bryne and egwene and chubain have made contigency plans in case of the Seanchan attack, won't the seanchan be coming from within the WT itself?

 

i mean they can travel directly to the WT; they break a couple of aes sedai, get them to say where is the least frequented areas of the WT (the basements or something) and they go there, and eventually a small army of damane is inside the WT and another army can attack from outside as well. not sure if they made plans from an inside attack.

[RandA lThor]

Sisters would feel the channeling as an army of damane and soldiers is entering the WT.

[baalsmistress]

Of course GB, the usual reason for picking low usage areas for gateways is to minimise the possibility of injuring people at the terminus.

 

When you're invading an enemy stronghold, there is no milage in avoiding casualties at the destination, and if your gateways are going to be detected anyhow, you might well open them all into the hall of the tower, at the same time and pour out, channelling offensively into the heart of the tower.

[fionwe1987]

assuming bryne and egwene and chubain have made contigency plans in case of the Seanchan attack, won't the seanchan be coming from within the WT itself?

That is, in fact, their plan. They plan to open Gateways into the basements of the WT. The problem for them is, they're totally clueless about wards, and given that Egwene is completely aware of the ability of people to Travel into the basements (she did it herself), you can be sure she'll take precautions against that.

 

And I don't think it is coincidence at all that it is in ToM that we see Egwene displaying great skill in modulating wards to alter their function. This is something we've only seen Rand do before, and Brandon may well have dropped in the hint so that when we do see extensive and skillful wards in the WT basements, we aren't surprised about their existence.

 

i mean they can travel directly to the WT; they break a couple of aes sedai, get them to say where is the least frequented areas of the WT (the basements or something) and they go there, and eventually a small army of damane is inside the WT and another army can attack from outside as well. not sure if they made plans from an inside attack.

They've already determined that it is best to attack from the basement.

 

Our next move will have to be decisive, then, Selucia signed. But think. Delivering thousands of soldiers into the White Tower through a hidden basement room. Striking with the force of a thousand hammers against a thousand anvils!

Fortuona nodded.

The White Tower was doomed.

 

Add to that the fact that there are going to be rather more than a thousand anvils (the Seanchan are completely clueless that the Rebels had so many more Novices, or that Egwene has been raising sisters at an accelerated pace), and I think the Seancahn are going to be in for rather a nasty shock. We've also seen before that the Aes Sedai are very capable of organizing a good defense if they have reason to expect an attack. The Rebels, expecting an attack from Sammael, had a plan in place for sisters, Accepted and Novices to switly form multiple links of thirteen. I suspect something similar is in place in the Tower now. And the thing is, they can form more than enough such circles to give the Seanchan a very bad time. With shielding no longer being an option for the Seanchan, they will have to settle for attempting to kill the Aes Sedai, which gives the AS all the leeway they need to attack back with the Power. Plus, you add in Nynaeve/Egwene's weave that unclips the a'dam from the damane's neck, and the Seanchan are going to be caught with their pants down.

[Durinax]

#1 they should aim for the bracelet not for the necklace (we have seen very bad examples of what happens when the wrong one is set free)

#2 we also have evidence of the wards (or where they keepings, I think their the same thing) failing in the WT

[GB]

Sisters would feel the channeling as an army of damane and soldiers is entering the WT.

Of course GB, the usual reason for picking low usage areas for gateways is to minimise the possibility of injuring people at the terminus.

 

When you're invading an enemy stronghold, there is no milage in avoiding casualties at the destination, and if your gateways are going to be detected anyhow, you might well open them all into the hall of the tower, at the same time and pour out, channelling offensively into the heart of the tower.

assuming bryne and egwene and chubain have made contigency plans in case of the Seanchan attack, won't the seanchan be coming from within the WT itself?

That is, in fact, their plan. They plan to open Gateways into the basements of the WT. The problem for them is, they're totally clueless about wards, and given that Egwene is completely aware of the ability of people to Travel into the basements (she did it herself), you can be sure she'll take precautions against that.

 

And I don't think it is coincidence at all that it is in ToM that we see Egwene displaying great skill in modulating wards to alter their function. This is something we've only seen Rand do before, and Brandon may well have dropped in the hint so that when we do see extensive and skillful wards in the WT basements, we aren't surprised about their existence.

 

i mean they can travel directly to the WT; they break a couple of aes sedai, get them to say where is the least frequented areas of the WT (the basements or something) and they go there, and eventually a small army of damane is inside the WT and another army can attack from outside as well. not sure if they made plans from an inside attack.

They've already determined that it is best to attack from the basement.

 

Our next move will have to be decisive, then, Selucia signed. But think. Delivering thousands of soldiers into the White Tower through a hidden basement room. Striking with the force of a thousand hammers against a thousand anvils!

Fortuona nodded.

The White Tower was doomed.

 

Add to that the fact that there are going to be rather more than a thousand anvils (the Seanchan are completely clueless that the Rebels had so many more Novices, or that Egwene has been raising sisters at an accelerated pace), and I think the Seancahn are going to be in for rather a nasty shock. We've also seen before that the Aes Sedai are very capable of organizing a good defense if they have reason to expect an attack. The Rebels, expecting an attack from Sammael, had a plan in place for sisters, Accepted and Novices to switly form multiple links of thirteen. I suspect something similar is in place in the Tower now. And the thing is, they can form more than enough such circles to give the Seanchan a very bad time. With shielding no longer being an option for the Seanchan, they will have to settle for attempting to kill the Aes Sedai, which gives the AS all the leeway they need to attack back with the Power. Plus, you add in Nynaeve/Egwene's weave that unclips the a'dam from the damane's neck, and the Seanchan are going to be caught with their pants down.

 

yeah i guess what you guys said make sense. cheers :p

[Suttree]

#2 we also have evidence of the wards (or where they keepings, I think their the same thing) failing in the WT

 

IIRC that had more to do with spoilage and Dark Rand(one with the land) more than anything else.

[Aulduron]

The Rebels, expecting an attack from Sammael, had a plan in place for sisters, Accepted and Novices to switly form multiple links of thirteen.

 

I'd forgotten about that.

 

The failing wards are old wards, and I believe Mesana had something to do with that.

[fionwe1987]

#1 they should aim for the bracelet not for the necklace (we have seen very bad examples of what happens when the wrong one is set free)

Ummm... what examples are these?

 

And unclipping the a'dam from the damane is more useful than from the sul'dam. A damane collared with the a'dam still has her access to the OP and her freedom restricted. Assume they see a captured Aes Sedai, freeing her from the a'dam makes more sense than removing it from the Sul'dam's wrist, since this way, the freed captive can participate in the attack right away. And we saw this was very effectively used in tGS.

[Durinax]

#1 they should aim for the bracelet not for the necklace (we have seen very bad examples of what happens when the wrong one is set free)

Ummm... what examples are these?

 

And unclipping the a'dam from the damane is more useful than from the sul'dam. A damane collared with the a'dam still has her access to the OP and her freedom restricted. Assume they see a captured Aes Sedai, freeing her from the a'dam makes more sense than removing it from the Sul'dam's wrist, since this way, the freed captive can participate in the attack right away. And we saw this was very effectively used in tGS.

well from tGH didn't nynaeve and elayne do that before and the one damane freaked out and started lashing out with the power in random ways?

 

granted most of them wouldn't do that, but the last thing thats needed is them to release some of the more heavily doctrined damane and have them destroy as much as possible because their scared fo being free. Whereas releasing the wrist band, they can evaluate the mental condition of the girl and see if she's fit to be released

[Aulduron]

If the damane are Aes Sedai, they won't go nuts. Even the damane in Falme punched the Seta in the face and ran, once her adam fell off. Besides, they'd probably shield them and tie them in air first.

[fionwe1987]

#1 they should aim for the bracelet not for the necklace (we have seen very bad examples of what happens when the wrong one is set free)

Ummm... what examples are these?

 

And unclipping the a'dam from the damane is more useful than from the sul'dam. A damane collared with the a'dam still has her access to the OP and her freedom restricted. Assume they see a captured Aes Sedai, freeing her from the a'dam makes more sense than removing it from the Sul'dam's wrist, since this way, the freed captive can participate in the attack right away. And we saw this was very effectively used in tGS.

well from tGH didn't nynaeve and elayne do that before and the one damane freaked out and started lashing out with the power in random ways?

 

granted most of them wouldn't do that, but the last thing thats needed is them to release some of the more heavily doctrined damane and have them destroy as much as possible because their scared fo being free. Whereas releasing the wrist band, they can evaluate the mental condition of the girl and see if she's fit to be released

 

I have no memory of such an event. I'd really appreciate the quote!

[Durinax]

If the damane are Aes Sedai, they won't go nuts. Even the one damane in Falme punched the Seta in the face and ran. Besides, they'd probably shield them and tie them in air first.

why bother with the shield and the air, it would be extra weaves, undoing the bracelet would be the quickest and easiest way to neutralize the damane, along with being the safest.

 

also remember that AS was captive maybe a few weeks to a month. the damane they are going to be using have likely been under their control for a year to half year. So their likely a lot more indoctrinated.

[Aulduron]

They might not, but I just envision it being easier to shield them than to unlock the collars.

 

I also imagine that they could feel the source their enemy is embracing, and target it with a shield, even when they're on the other side of a wall, but might have to be close enough to see adam before they target it. Maybe not. Since they have to be careful with destructive weaves, because of captive Aes Sedai, and because it's their home, I figure there will be a lot of air flying.

[Maleshub]

During the fight against the Seanchan raid against the WT, Egwene's tactic against the damane was unleashing them. They tended to huddle and take themselves out of the battle. A second less risky tactic was killing the suldam (or was it the damane).

 

Since damane are fewer than suldam, there are always extra suldam to replace those killed or captured. So, it would make more battle sense to direct the attack on the damane, whether to free her or kill her. Suldam would become useless with their damane gone.

[baalsmistress]

The very safest approach when faced with a hostile channeller is to go for an instant kill. The only reason to discuss shielding, binding, unlocking collars and bracelets is to avoid killing. There's a number of potential consequences to this approach, some good, some bad.

 

Looking at the situation from a purely practical standpoint, ignoring moral considerations. It is clear that releasing those channellers that are able to function independantly and will not exhibit continued loyalty to then Seanchan is a good thing. It reduces the available channellers to the seanchan, while potentially boosting the channelers available to the Aes Sedai. What is less clear is the channellers that are either so heavily indoctrinated by the Seanchan, or are ideologically aligned to them. In these cases, the choices are to either execute the damane, use an a'dam to control them or use friendly channellers to shield and guard them. The third option here not only does not add the damane's expertise to the defense, it reduces the friendly channeller ranks by the guards.

[Durinax]

The very safest approach when faced with a hostile channeller is to go for an instant kill. The only reason to discuss shielding, binding, unlocking collars and bracelets is to avoid killing. There's a number of potential consequences to this approach, some good, some bad.

 

Looking at the situation from a purely practical standpoint, ignoring moral considerations. It is clear that releasing those channellers that are able to function independantly and will not exhibit continued loyalty to then Seanchan is a good thing. It reduces the available channellers to the seanchan, while potentially boosting the channelers available to the Aes Sedai. What is less clear is the channellers that are either so heavily indoctrinated by the Seanchan, or are ideologically aligned to them. In these cases, the choices are to either execute the damane, use an a'dam to control them or use friendly channellers to shield and guard them. The third option here not only does not add the damane's expertise to the defense, it reduces the friendly channeller ranks by the guards.

thats why you remove the bracelet from the suldam, then you can pick up the bracelet and move the girl to another location for a check up, or to store her without tying up any more friendly channellers

[FarShainMael]

assuming bryne and egwene and chubain have made contigency plans in case of the Seanchan attack, won't the seanchan be coming from within the WT itself?

That is, in fact, their plan. They plan to open Gateways into the basements of the WT. The problem for them is, they're totally clueless about wards, and given that Egwene is completely aware of the ability of people to Travel into the basements (she did it herself), you can be sure she'll take precautions against that.

 

Indeed. Back in TGS38, when Egwene is meeting with Siuan in T'A'R while she herself is physically imprisoned in the basement dungeons, she describes her situation to Siuan, and says

 

"Once I am upheld fully as Amyrlin, this room and any like it will be removed, the doors ripped out and the cells themselves filled wih bricks and mortar."

 

And Siuan adds that she will make certain of it.

 

So, if the Seanchan do try opening Gateways into the basements, they are likely to be somewhat surprised.