Who is the most overrated character in the wheel of time?

[RandA lThor]

I don't think the White Tower is too bad. It was pretty awesome in the Trolloc Wars and even up to Hawkwing era. The "modern" Aes Sedai are the real failures. Since the fall of Hawkwing's empire, the Aes Sedai have fallen very far. They were a bastion of Light for the past 2000 years. From the Breaking until Amasalan, they were the main opposition to the Shadow. If the Tower hadn't existed, even with all the Black Ajah, the DO would have almost certainly have won.

 

The real failures are those of Post-Hawkwing WT. They are the useless, arrogant children that we know and love to hate. By the end of the dissolution of Hawkwing's Empire, almost all of the knowledge from the AoL had been lost, the Trolloc Wars Aes Sedai still had a fair bit of knowledge and skill behind them.

 

So Modern WT are the overrated ones.

 

The Forsaken in general are overrated by the Characters. They are underrated by the fans though, as blasting through armies and destroying cities has not been their goal. They have done their job well, apart from a few useless ones.

 

Fain is also overrated. From Brandon himself.

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 8th, 2007

Dragonmount Interview with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

 

JASON DENZEL

 

And now, just for fun:

 

Who's nastier: Moridin, or Padan Fain?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

No contest: Moridin. You can't really top Ishamael when it comes to nastiness, particularly if his opponent is just a little Darkfriend weasel. Yeah, Padan Fainfacilitated the attack on Emond's Field and all that, but he's still just a weasel.

 

A dangerous weasel,, to be sure, but I think his importance is overplayed.

 

I also always didn't find too much special about Fain. Yeah he is crazy, but wouldn't he just die if someone like Rand or the Forsaken faced him?

 

 

Very well said. Yes i agree that the characters in the story think too much of Cadsuane.

 

Hardly...have you read RJ's notes?

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

 

What i meant to say is that when Cadsuane was first introduced, all of the Aes Sedai couldn't believe that she wasn't alive and started to obey her in whatever she said. Even Nynaeve, one of the most stubborn people in Randland started to do what Cadsuane said and felt pride when she was complimented. There were so many people that thought Cadsuane was this amazing person who she really kind of wasn't.

[Thrasymachus]

Most of the blame for the state of modern Aes Sedai lies at the feet of those ancient Aes Sedai of the period following the Breaking and following the Trolloc Wars. They founded and designed the institution that could not possibly have prospered in the post-Breaking world. They tried to hew to a legacy and tradition that was incapable of being recaptured given the common mistrust of the Power. Virtually everything they did made that mistrust and fear worse, and set up the White Tower to produce apparently arrogant, narrow-minded and self-centered Aes Sedai because of it. The best thing they could have done post-Breaking would have been to disperse, and keep a loose network of alliance and communication among themselves, attach themselves to the burgeoning communities and actually help them out with stuff. Re-introduce the One Power as a daily and trustworthy aspect of the common folk's lives. Instead, they consolidated and fortified themselves into an isolated little conclave, determined to maintain their Aes Sedai identities. I'm not saying they were bad, or stupid. They were scared and a bit naive. On the other hand, if they had dispersed, they would have lost tons more knowledge in the intervening years and would likely have been much less effective during the Trolloc Wars.

 

But more than anything, I doubt that those ancient Aes Sedai felt like they had much choice when they were working out the White Tower as an organization. People everywhere were against them, but they had the potential and the desire to be great forces for the Light. The most human reaction to that is resentment, followed by arrogance and manipulation and ultimately self-centeredness. Blaming the Aes Sedai for being that way is to blame them for being feeling, caring people.

[Thrasymachus]

 

What i meant to say is that when Cadsuane was first introduced, all of the Aes Sedai couldn't believe that she wasn't alive and started to obey her in whatever she said. Even Nynaeve, one of the most stubborn people in Randland started to do what Cadsuane said and felt pride when she was complimented. There were so many people that thought Cadsuane was this amazing person who she really kind of wasn't.

 

For my part, I think of Caddy as being overrated not in the sense that she's not effective, but in the sense that she relies on her reputation as a ball-buster to get her way. The old lady's very effective, and probably the most capable Aes Sedai in the whole stable of the last generation, but the biggest part of her shtick is to get people to think she's badder than she really is so she only has to intimidate people to get her way, instead of actually physically bullying them like she did with Tam.

[Mr Ares]

I normally just lurk, but I have to say I'm with Meeker on this one. Tear and other nations are less to blame for the act of their darkfriends because they would have a much harder time rooting them out. All Aes Sedai would have to do is add a 4th oath to never serve the dark one.

Such an oath would be infinitely more useful than one to not make weapons. Even easier...simply ask Sisters to declare that they are not dark friends after raising. It wouldn't be 100% fool proof because they could change their minds later on...but it would weed out the vast majority.

That assumes that the vast majority of BA were Darkfriends at the time they went to the WT. Aside from not rooting out those who are recruited later, a significant number, it would also rapidly cease to be effective in rooting out Darkfriends as they would simply stop sending recruits to become AS. So you'll simply have lots of Darkfriends out of the Tower that you know nothing about, and BA within the WT as well. In what way is that better?

 

As for your proposed fourth Oath, the simple problem with that is that AS forswear all Oaths before swearing new Oaths to Shai'tan. Thus by the time they become Darkfriends, they have already got rid of the Oath preventing them from becoming Darkfriends. So it's useless. You have not shown that it is easier for AS to weed out Darkfriends.

[RandA lThor]

I normally just lurk, but I have to say I'm with Meeker on this one. Tear and other nations are less to blame for the act of their darkfriends because they would have a much harder time rooting them out. All Aes Sedai would have to do is add a 4th oath to never serve the dark one.

Such an oath would be infinitely more useful than one to not make weapons. Even easier...simply ask Sisters to declare that they are not dark friends after raising. It wouldn't be 100% fool proof because they could change their minds later on...but it would weed out the vast majority.

That assumes that the vast majority of BA were Darkfriends at the time they went to the WT. Aside from not rooting out those who are recruited later, a significant number, it would also rapidly cease to be effective in rooting out Darkfriends as they would simply stop sending recruits to become AS. So you'll simply have lots of Darkfriends out of the Tower that you know nothing about, and BA within the WT as well. In what way is that better?

 

As for your proposed fourth Oath, the simple problem with that is that AS forswear all Oaths before swearing new Oaths to Shai'tan. Thus by the time they become Darkfriends, they have already got rid of the Oath preventing them from becoming Darkfriends. So it's useless. You have not shown that it is easier for AS to weed out Darkfriends.

 

Well, he does show that he can weed out Aes Sedai who are Darkfriends. Also, Darkfriends out of the Tower are better than BA inside the tower. Also, they can have a routine check up by having Aes Sedai reswear the oaths and say that they are not a Darkfriend. There is one problem though. They could get around it in the way that Mesaana did. This problem would have to be figured out.

[Mr Ares]

I normally just lurk, but I have to say I'm with Meeker on this one. Tear and other nations are less to blame for the act of their darkfriends because they would have a much harder time rooting them out. All Aes Sedai would have to do is add a 4th oath to never serve the dark one.

Such an oath would be infinitely more useful than one to not make weapons. Even easier...simply ask Sisters to declare that they are not dark friends after raising. It wouldn't be 100% fool proof because they could change their minds later on...but it would weed out the vast majority.

That assumes that the vast majority of BA were Darkfriends at the time they went to the WT. Aside from not rooting out those who are recruited later, a significant number, it would also rapidly cease to be effective in rooting out Darkfriends as they would simply stop sending recruits to become AS. So you'll simply have lots of Darkfriends out of the Tower that you know nothing about, and BA within the WT as well. In what way is that better?

 

As for your proposed fourth Oath, the simple problem with that is that AS forswear all Oaths before swearing new Oaths to Shai'tan. Thus by the time they become Darkfriends, they have already got rid of the Oath preventing them from becoming Darkfriends. So it's useless. You have not shown that it is easier for AS to weed out Darkfriends.

 

Well, he does show that he can weed out Aes Sedai who are Darkfriends. Also, Darkfriends out of the Tower are better than BA inside the tower. Also, they can have a routine check up by having Aes Sedai reswear the oaths and say that they are not a Darkfriend. There is one problem though. They could get around it in the way that Mesaana did. This problem would have to be figured out.

He only finds them if they are Darkfriends when they become AS. After that, well, the series has already shown that it's possible to do that. However, regular AS didn't know that you could unswear Oaths before the BA hunters figured it out, so you couldn't have periodic reswearing of Oaths so much as periodic addition of Oaths. Which would kill them all the faster (I suppose you might then find the BA by investigating anyone who lived to be over a hundred). Also, you have just as many Darkfriends - you don't reduce the problem, you move it around. You still have a BA, you also have Darkfriend channelers outside the WT. In other words, AS still have just as much of a problem finding BA as any other nation does rooting out Darkfriends.

[RandA lThor]

Not necessarily Darkfriend chanellers. The Shadow did not have the Forsaken yet, so they could not teach them, nor would they. Any darkfriend channelers there were in one of three groups at one point or another. The Aiel, White Tower, and Sea Folk. The Sea Folk were seperate from the whole world and wouldn't be too much of a problem, the Aiel are insanely harsh on DFs, and the White Tower remains. A lot of the Darkfriends that would not go to the Tower to learn wouldn't even know they could channel and would turn into normal DFs which would be a lot better.

 

Also, I think that if the Tower did just one random check every few decades or whatever amount of time, they would catch a lot of DFs with reswearing one oath and saying they are not a DF. Also, I do not know if swearing the same oath that you already did binds you more.

[Aleator77]

You would have to imagine that an oath to never serve the dark one would preclude you from forswearing your oath so that you could serve the dark one. After all, you wouldn't even be able to choose to do so unless you had already decided to serve the dark...which would be impossible.

[baalsmistress]

The oaths do not prevent thought, desire, etc... They only prevent action. You can think a lie, you can rehearse saying it all you like, but you can't actually communicate it.

 

Likewise, you could not take an action that serves the dark one, but you can plan it all you like. Then you find a way to conceive of rescinding your oaths that does not serve the dark one.

[Maleshub]

You would have to imagine that an oath to never serve the dark one would preclude you from forswearing your oath so that you could serve the dark one. After all, you wouldn't even be able to choose to do so unless you had already decided to serve the dark...which would be impossible.

 

But the decision to serve the Dark One is made before swearing the oaths to serve him. Treachery is not something that can be cured by the binder or Healed. It is part of human culture. So is ambition at any cost. You find several examples of this among Aes Sedai. Sheriam turned to the DO because of ambition and promise of great power; and so did many other Aes Sedai.

[RandA lThor]

What of an oath that says that I will never even think about serving the DO.

[Suttree]

What of an oath that says that I will never even think about serving the DO.

 

Look the point is there are various ways around the oath rod no matter what they swear. There is no fool proof method. It is absolutely ridiculious to blame the WT for the actions of the BA. In this they are no different from any other section of society. Of course DF's targert them because of the power on offer. I honestly can't comprehend how people don't take into account that we are supposed to being seeing them at their lowest point. It is a forsaken influenced, BA riddled, Fain touched, split Tower. Once again there are so many legitimate complaints people can make, when posters like Meeker start making claims like the one above it is impossible to take seriously.

[Maleshub]

What of an oath that says that I will never even think about serving the DO.

 

The binder is a tool. We cannot see human treachery and ambition through this simple tool. Being loyal or treasonous is a personal decision, not a power-induced commitment.

 

And in any case, any oath that is sworn on the binder can be removed. So, any oath you can think of is as useless as the previous one.

[Durinax]

What of an oath that says that I will never even think about serving the DO.

 

Look the point is there are various ways around the oath rod no matter what they swear. There is no fool proof method. It is absolutely ridiculious to blame the WT for the actions of the BA. In this they are no different from any other section of society. Of course DF's targert them because of the power on offer. I honestly can't comprehend how people don't take into account that we are supposed to being seeing them at their lowest point. It is a forsaken influenced, BA riddled, Fain touched, split Tower. Once again there are so many legitimate complaints people can make, when posters like Meeker start making claims like the one above it is impossible to take seriously.

actually by saying these things we are seeing them more as the AS would have seen things, pre mesaana the rod had never been defeated that we know. Although we are merely stating that even at the height of their power that they never tried to induct an oath against swearing to the shadow indicates that they where corrupt at the beginning. What better way to get public support after the chaos of AS swearing to the shadow than have a oath to prevent service and swear that they don't?

[Suttree]

Although we are merely stating that even at the height of their power that they never tried to induct an oath against swearing to the shadow indicates that they where corrupt at the beginning.

 

Well you could say every memeber of the BA did so in a manner of speaking.

 

In addition corrupt in what why? Just wondering what you are thinking here. It would seem you are saying every single member shoudl take on the presumption of guilty until proven innocent. That is a very slippery slope.

[Maleshub]

What of an oath that says that I will never even think about serving the DO.

 

Look the point is there are various ways around the oath rod no matter what they swear. There is no fool proof method. It is absolutely ridiculious to blame the WT for the actions of the BA. In this they are no different from any other section of society. Of course DF's targert them because of the power on offer. I honestly can't comprehend how people don't take into account that we are supposed to being seeing them at their lowest point. It is a forsaken influenced, BA riddled, Fain touched, split Tower. Once again there are so many legitimate complaints people can make, when posters like Meeker start making claims like the one above it is impossible to take seriously.

actually by saying these things we are seeing them more as the AS would have seen things, pre mesaana the rod had never been defeated that we know. Although we are merely stating that even at the height of their power that they never tried to induct an oath against swearing to the shadow indicates that they where corrupt at the beginning. What better way to get public support after the chaos of AS swearing to the shadow than have a oath to prevent service and swear that they don't?

 

How about an oath of "I will swear to breathe and never forget to take a breath." Or "I will swear to eat and drink." You could probably think of a few dozen nice oaths that would have made the world a better place. But you fail to see how much knowledge was lost about angreal and terangreal after the Breaking. And no one thought it necessary to swear not to fight people who were sealed in Shayol Ghul. Knowledge that the seals were breaking and foresaken loose is 3 years old at most.

 

And more importantly, you're stuck on the oaths that can be easily removed.

[Durinax]

Although we are merely stating that even at the height of their power that they never tried to induct an oath against swearing to the shadow indicates that they where corrupt at the beginning.

 

Well you could say every memeber of the BA did so in a manner of speaking.

 

In addition corrupt in what why? Just wondering what you are thinking here.

well I am thinking that since there where large amounts of shadow sworn AS during the breaking so that in the start they would have tried to create a oath against swearing/ being sworn to the shadow. the fact that such a oath never got put in permanently indicates a strong shadow sworn presence and influence in these decisions off the start of the institution which followed into when the white tower was at its height of power, and during the trolloc wars (presumably some dreadlords where women) the issue would have arose again but again have been stomped down.

 

this to me indicates that the shadow has had a strong presence and high amount of influence throughout the history of the white tower, from founding until now

[Suttree]

this to me indicates that the shadow has had a strong presence and high amount of influence throughout the history of the white tower, from founding until now

 

We know that the BA was founded around 2,000 years ago. Did the WT have DFs before that? I'm sure they did just like any other group. Although during the Breaking with AS like LPD earning the nickname "Cutter of the Shadow" it is highly unlikely the playd any significant role. After all the light side won a victory and those women saved the world in it's darkest hour. Not sure what the point of this debate is however. Despite whatever influence DFs had the WT has been the main force for the light. They held the world together during the Breaking when no one else could and saved it during the Trolloc Wars along with numerous other treaties and alliances that have been crucial throughout history, hell without AS like Gitara we woudln't even have a chance at the LB. Bottom line Meeker claiming they were the "main force of the dark that put the world in danger" is absurd. As Mastar Ablar said BA members aren't really AS.

[RandA lThor]

What of an oath that says that I will never even think about serving the DO.

 

Look the point is there are various ways around the oath rod no matter what they swear. There is no fool proof method. It is absolutely ridiculious to blame the WT for the actions of the BA. In this they are no different from any other section of society. Of course DF's targert them because of the power on offer. I honestly can't comprehend how people don't take into account that we are supposed to being seeing them at their lowest point. It is a forsaken influenced, BA riddled, Fain touched, split Tower. Once again there are so many legitimate complaints people can make, when posters like Meeker start making claims like the one above it is impossible to take seriously.

actually by saying these things we are seeing them more as the AS would have seen things, pre mesaana the rod had never been defeated that we know. Although we are merely stating that even at the height of their power that they never tried to induct an oath against swearing to the shadow indicates that they where corrupt at the beginning. What better way to get public support after the chaos of AS swearing to the shadow than have a oath to prevent service and swear that they don't?

 

How about an oath of "I will swear to breathe and never forget to take a breath." Or "I will swear to eat and drink." You could probably think of a few dozen nice oaths that would have made the world a better place. But you fail to see how much knowledge was lost about angreal and terangreal after the Breaking. And no one thought it necessary to swear not to fight people who were sealed in Shayol Ghul. Knowledge that the seals were breaking and foresaken loose is 3 years old at most.

 

And more importantly, you're stuck on the oaths that can be easily removed.

 

I actually agree with you Suttree, but I also want to think of ways that the WT can prevent DFs.

[TristanWebb]

Should take out the making weapons oath and put in a won't serve the shadow one.

[Suttree]

What of an oath that says that I will never even think about serving the DO.

 

Look the point is there are various ways around the oath rod no matter what they swear. There is no fool proof method. It is absolutely ridiculious to blame the WT for the actions of the BA. In this they are no different from any other section of society. Of course DF's targert them because of the power on offer. I honestly can't comprehend how people don't take into account that we are supposed to being seeing them at their lowest point. It is a forsaken influenced, BA riddled, Fain touched, split Tower. Once again there are so many legitimate complaints people can make, when posters like Meeker start making claims like the one above it is impossible to take seriously.

actually by saying these things we are seeing them more as the AS would have seen things, pre mesaana the rod had never been defeated that we know. Although we are merely stating that even at the height of their power that they never tried to induct an oath against swearing to the shadow indicates that they where corrupt at the beginning. What better way to get public support after the chaos of AS swearing to the shadow than have a oath to prevent service and swear that they don't?

 

How about an oath of "I will swear to breathe and never forget to take a breath." Or "I will swear to eat and drink." You could probably think of a few dozen nice oaths that would have made the world a better place. But you fail to see how much knowledge was lost about angreal and terangreal after the Breaking. And no one thought it necessary to swear not to fight people who were sealed in Shayol Ghul. Knowledge that the seals were breaking and foresaken loose is 3 years old at most.

 

And more importantly, you're stuck on the oaths that can be easily removed.

 

I actually agree with you Suttree, but I also want to think of ways that the WT can prevent DFs.

 

That should just be one of many changes as they move forward after bottoming out. Hoping that they can work together with Ashaman and start getting back to their full potential in terms of what they can offer the world.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also the DO wasn't really taken too seriously before events of the Books. Sheriam is the prime example. She joined the BA not to serve the Shadow, but to increase her power. The Breaking AS would know of the Shadow's power, and the Trolloc Wars would be rife with examples of the Shadow's power, but 2000 years passed with nothing happening with the Shadow. No real threat. The DO was relatively non-existent from the end of the Trolloc Wars to New Spring. It went so far that most Aes Sedai believed the Black Ajah didn't exist at all.

 

Why would they worry about something that many doubted was even a problem? They knew of the existence of the DO, but they thought him securely sealed. And why not? He hasn't been active in any real way since the Trolloc Wars. And even then, it was only the remnant of the Shadow, since the DO or Forsaken (except Ishamael) were not present in any great way.

 

Point being, why would they be weary of the Black Ajah? Most of the world had forgotten about the DO. It is like kids these days worshipping the Devil for a bit of a laugh. People know who the devil is supposed to be, but since he has never actually been around in any real way, like sending demons to kill people, it is a bit of excitement, nobody really expects the devil to pop up in your house and order you to prepare the way for his Return. Nobody takes them seriously, certainly not enough to swear an oath against becoming a DF.

[fionwe1987]

People are forgetting. Aes Sedai did not know the Oath Rod could unbind. Which is why they were sure there were no BA. If you can't lie, and you can't kill, how are you going to do the Shadow's work? The Aes Sedai believed they were covered on the BA end. Those that believed the BA did exist probably thought that they were able to lie and kill because of something the Shadow does.

 

As for an Oath against becoming a Darkfriend... Do remember the current Oaths were a PR exercise. They weren't introduced because the Aes Sedai thought their sisters were lying murderers who made weapons. They did it to quieten what they perceived as the "silly" fear of the people. But an oath against swearing to the Shadow is another thing. I don't think anyone would agree to be submitted to that, and they'd be quite right. Quite apart from that, would you really want to work with women who weren't on the side of the Light by choice, but forced into it, with no way for you to tell? And from a PR standpoint, it would be an even greater folly. Swearing to be honest and non-violent (as they hoped the people would see the Oaths, of course) is one thing. You can spin it to be laudable and noble. Swearing never to serve the Shadow? Its like someone saying, "My new year's resolution is to not kill anyone". They'd be inviting questions as to whether there's some reason they're predisposed to swear to the Shadow. They'd lose all credibility.

[Barid Bel Medar]

People are forgetting. Aes Sedai did not know the Oath Rod could unbind. Which is why they were sure there were no BA. If you can't lie, and you can't kill, how are you going to do the Shadow's work? The Aes Sedai believed they were covered on the BA end. Those that believed the BA did exist probably thought that they were able to lie and kill because of something the Shadow does.

 

As for an Oath against becoming a Darkfriend... Do remember the current Oaths were a PR exercise. They weren't introduced because the Aes Sedai thought their sisters were lying murderers who made weapons. They did it to quieten what they perceived as the "silly" fear of the people. But an oath against swearing to the Shadow is another thing. I don't think anyone would agree to be submitted to that, and they'd be quite right. Quite apart from that, would you really want to work with women who weren't on the side of the Light by choice, but forced into it, with no way for you to tell? And from a PR standpoint, it would be an even greater folly. Swearing to be honest and non-violent (as they hoped the people would see the Oaths, of course) is one thing. You can spin it to be laudable and noble. Swearing never to serve the Shadow? Its like someone saying, "My new year's resolution is to not kill anyone". They'd be inviting questions as to whether there's some reason they're predisposed to swear to the Shadow. They'd lose all credibility.

 

Indeed, I agree. You can't win if you're AS. There are many things to criticise them for, call them arrogant, insular, self serving women with little imagination, trust or initiative, but with this they can't win.

 

Call them idiots for binding themselves like criminals.

 

Called idiots because they don't swear ENOUGH oaths.

 

What can you do?

[TristanWebb]

People swear for the shadow all the time though. I don't think it is too harsh to put in 'I won't willingly serve the dark one' or some such. It isn't an path to fight, just an oath not to fight on the other side.

 

Given the choice between fighting with people that are being forced to, or people that are either willing or pretending to be willing while attacking from the inside, I would go with the forced people any day.