Alanna bonding Rand

[Barid Bel Medar]

Youi are looking at it from a narrow viewpoint. Compulsion is not simply mind control. There are different degrees of Compulsion.

 

You can make someone more amiable, make them angry, make them forget something, or plant information.

 

Using compulsion on a child to make them forget seeing their parents get stabbed, for example, is not a weapon.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[nolirion]

Youi are looking at it from a narrow viewpoint. Compulsion is not simply mind control. There are different degrees of Compulsion.

 

You can make someone more amiable, make them angry, make them forget something, or plant information.

 

Using compulsion on a child to make them forget seeing their parents get stabbed, for example, is not a weapon.

It is still wrong , you touch to the mind of people , and even traumatic event need to be dealt with not erase or masked .

Both compulsions and Alanna bonding touch to the integrity of the person , in Alanna bonding it touched not only to the personal freedom of Rand but also to his mind . It is not okay to force either on someone .

But to Alanna favor she had a lot of courage , or temerity , she is a great deal foolish but she was right on the point Rand needed a bound and the help of Aes'Sedai , but like always Aes'Sedai though themselves above earthly concern like decency and respect .

[Barid Bel Medar]

Youi are looking at it from a narrow viewpoint. Compulsion is not simply mind control. There are different degrees of Compulsion.

 

You can make someone more amiable, make them angry, make them forget something, or plant information.

 

Using compulsion on a child to make them forget seeing their parents get stabbed, for example, is not a weapon.

It is still wrong , you touch to the mind of people , and even traumatic event need to be dealt with not erase or masked .

Both compulsions and Alanna bonding touch to the integrity of the person , in Alanna bonding it touched not only to the personal freedom of Rand but also to his mind . It is not okay to force either on someone .

But to Alanna favor she had a lot of courage , or temerity , she is a great deal foolish but she was right on the point Rand needed a bound and the help of Aes'Sedai , but like always Aes'Sedai though themselves above earthly concern like decency and respect .

 

Your missing the point completely.

 

The oath says nothing about morals, it says you can't use the OP as a weapon.

 

Right or wrong, doing that is not using a weapon.

[thisguy]

I get what you're saying. It's also interesting that you're the judge of what is right or wrong (you being the woman who has taken the oaths). And, I guess it's true - Moiraine switched Rand's back with the power in book 4 or 5 in the Waste (i think 5). But, since I believe RJ himself said it was akin to rape, I have a problem with her being able to do it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

That is more your problem though. All I am saying is that there was no mistake.

 

It is, and was, fully possible.

 

Our opinions regarding the bonding are irrelevant, Alanna's are the only thing that matters, and she didn't see it that way.

[nolirion]

yes I did switched me with flow of air, I only read your post in fact

[Barid Bel Medar]

don't get me wrong, I agree with you guys that it is wrong, both what Alanna did and Compulsion is basically wrong, however it is not something that is impossible to do with the oaths.

[nolirion]

And you are right , it is even trickier with Alana , if she was considering Rand as his warder already then using the one power as a weapon to harm him as long as it save is life is possible .

Edited August 16, 2012 by nolirion

[Vardar]

don't get me wrong, I agree with you guys that it is wrong, both what Alanna did and Compulsion is basically wrong, however it is not something that is impossible to do with the oaths.

 

I'm still bothered by what Eliada was able to do to Eggy in the tower. I guess it really means that if you can convience yourself something isn't true, you can cut someone's head off with the power. It's like a lie detector test I guess.

[Barid Bel Medar]

don't get me wrong, I agree with you guys that it is wrong, both what Alanna did and Compulsion is basically wrong, however it is not something that is impossible to do with the oaths.

 

I'm still bothered by what Eliada was able to do to Eggy in the tower. I guess it really means that if you can convience yourself something isn't true, you can cut someone's head off with the power. It's like a lie detector test I guess.

 

Yeah, now THAT is something that strains the boundaries. I think it was accurate though, Elaida was kind of insane at that point (via Fain) and wasn't really thinking normally. She really did think what she did was ok.

 

I would hate to see what Fain would be able to do, I don't think the Oaths would have any affect on him.

[nolirion]

I don't think Fain would be able to use the power , either the Op or the Tp .

[Maleshub]

For the record, the warder bond weave can be used to compel the warder (e.g. Myrelle with Lan - I think). And Alanna admits that she tried to compel Rand but failed.

 

An important result of the Alanna bond is that Rand received the gifts of the bond, enhanced senses and stamina. That allowed him to hold up while doing the ten million things he was trying to do at the time. Without the bond's gifts, he would not have had the strength and stamina to do so much.

 

Another point to consider is that Verin knew that Alanna was going to bond Rand. She didn't question "why" Alanna bonded him, but questioned the "how" of it. Reading that scene gives some nice insight on Verin's part in that episode.

[Suttree]

For the record, the warder bond weave can be used to compel the warder (e.g. Myrelle with Lan - I think). And Alanna admits that she tried to compel Rand but failed.

 

An important result of the Alanna bond is that Rand received the gifts of the bond, enhanced senses and stamina. That allowed him to hold up while doing the ten million things he was trying to do at the time. Without the bond's gifts, he would not have had the strength and stamina to do so much.

 

Another point to consider is that Verin knew that Alanna was going to bond Rand. She didn't question "why" Alanna bonded him, but questioned the "how" of it. Reading that scene gives some nice insight on Verin's part in that episode.

 

Yeah, not sure if you missed it earlier but the AS bond requires a weave of spirit to compel and doesn't work on male channelers. It is rarely used and highly looked down upon however.

 

RJ

Although use of the bond in that way (controlling) was not unknown in the past, it came to be regarded as a form of Compulsion to use it so except in the slightest forms. Besides, using the bond to control a Warder all the time is a lot of work.

 

The Ashaman experimented widely with bonding and know much more about it than AS. Their bond with the "extra bit" can compel with just a though, channeler or no.

 

Interview: Jan 28th, 2003

 

COT Signing Report - Lady Voldemort (Paraphrased)

 

Lady Voldemort

Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

 

Robert Jordan

Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Suttree

[Maleshub]

Thanks for the clarification, Suttree. I missed that part of the discussion in this thread. A question I have is: do male channelers suffer the warder death rage if the bonding AS dies?

[78WARLOCK]

You guys might be directing your hate at the wrong person and should maybe think about giving poor Alanna a break.

 

There's a pretty good theory out there that Verin compelled her into it.

 

No. Verin was surprised after she did it. Surprised and upset about it. Even in her own mind.

 

Yes Verin was very suprised. I believe her comment was," Allana, what were you thinking in bonding him?" said in a very unpleasant voice.

[78WARLOCK]

Also, I have heard discussion in a lot of threads about AS releasing Warders from their bonds.

A lot of people ask why Rand didn't just make Alanna do this.

I have read through the entire series multiple times and don't actually remember anyone ever saying warders can be released from their bonds.

I remember multiple times that transferring the bond from one AS to another was mentioned.

Can anyone find a direct quote referring to an AS being able to release her Warder without transferring the bond to someone else?

Moraine tells lan she will not release him from the bond.

[Maleshub]

You guys might be directing your hate at the wrong person and should maybe think about giving poor Alanna a break.

 

There's a pretty good theory out there that Verin compelled her into it.

 

No. Verin was surprised after she did it. Surprised and upset about it. Even in her own mind.

 

Yes Verin was very suprised. I believe her comment was," Allana, what were you thinking in bonding him?" said in a very unpleasant voice.

 

My reading of the scene is that Verin was neither surprised or upset at Alanna's bonding. In fact, Verin knew that Alanna wanted to bond Rand then and there; but thought that she would do after getting his permission. The surprise was at bonding him without his consent.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Theodril

[OptimusPrime]

Another point to consider is that Verin knew that Alanna was going to bond Rand. She didn't question "why" Alanna bonded him, but questioned the "how" of it. Reading that scene gives some nice insight on Verin's part in that episode.

 

Alanna was thinking about bonding Perrin earlier on I beileve. I think the Ta'veren'ness is what made her bond Rand instead. Possibly it was just an idea about bonding a Ta'veren, and the Wheel decided if any were being bonded it was Rand as he would need it more than the others.

 

Another thing to consider is, maybe it was Verins doing so she had a way to track Rand through Alanna, what with her secret stuff about knowing he has to survive (like Compelling Elza).

Edited August 17, 2012 by Drekka Mort

[Suttree]

You guys might be directing your hate at the wrong person and should maybe think about giving poor Alanna a break.

 

There's a pretty good theory out there that Verin compelled her into it.

 

No. Verin was surprised after she did it. Surprised and upset about it. Even in her own mind.

 

Yes Verin was very suprised. I believe her comment was," Allana, what were you thinking in bonding him?" said in a very unpleasant voice.

 

My reading of the scene is that Verin was neither surprised or upset at Alanna's bonding. In fact, Verin knew that Alanna wanted to bond Rand then and there; but thought that she would do after getting his permission. The surprise was at bonding him without his consent.

 

Don't think she was surprised. In fact she immediately began using the post bond emotional state to manipulate her and the statement came a fair bit after the bonding to divert her from asking questions. It is a common tactic Verin uses...

 

LoC Ch. 11

 

"If you have no answer now, think on it. And think on this. Siuan Sanche was part of finding young al’Thor in the first place." Alanna opened her mouth – doubtless to ask how Verin knew, and whether she had been part of it, too – but Verin gave her no chance. "Only a simpleton would believe that role played no part in bringing her down. Coincidences that large do not exist. So think what Elaida’s view of Rand must be. She was Red, remember. While you are thinking, answer me this. What were you at, bonding him like that?"

 

Heck even if she had acted overly surprised that would just make me more suspicious given how good she is at wearing different masks.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Suttree

[thisguy]

Also, I have heard discussion in a lot of threads about AS releasing Warders from their bonds.

A lot of people ask why Rand didn't just make Alanna do this.

I have read through the entire series multiple times and don't actually remember anyone ever saying warders can be released from their bonds.

I remember multiple times that transferring the bond from one AS to another was mentioned.

Can anyone find a direct quote referring to an AS being able to release her Warder without transferring the bond to someone else?

Moraine tells lan she will not release him from the bond.

 

Well, she asks him once. That's when she first tells him if she dies he'll be compelled to another AS. Later, in the waste, she thinks about Nynaeve and her influence on Lan and say she won't give him up (all this in her thoughts) until she dies. But, her thoughts make it sound as if she wants Lan to end up with Nynaeve then.

[Maleshub]

Alanna was thinking about bonding Perrin earlier on I beileve. I think the Ta'veren'ness is what made her bond Rand instead. Possibly it was just an idea about bonding a Ta'veren, and the Wheel decided if any were being bonded it was Rand as he would need it more than the others.

 

Another thing to consider is, maybe it was Verins doing so she had a way to track Rand through Alanna, what with her secret stuff about knowing he has to survive (like Compelling Elza).

 

Alanna thought that all three ta'veren should have been bonded right away, most of all Rand. And she didn't bond Perrin because Faile threatened to kill her if she did. And as the quote below shows, Verin was in on the discussion and knew Alanna's intentions. She didn't warn Rand or try to stop it. Contrary, she went along and had Rand come in alone to talk to them. She knew Alanna wanted to bond him and didn't stop her when Alanna pulled her trick.

 

Don't think she was surprised. In fact she immediately began using the post bond emotional state to manipulate her and the statement came a fair bit after the bonding to divert her from asking questions. It is a common tactic Verin uses...

 

LoC Ch. 11

 

"If you have no answer now, think on it. And think on this. Siuan Sanche was part of finding young al’Thor in the first place." Alanna opened her mouth – doubtless to ask how Verin knew, and whether she had been part of it, too – but Verin gave her no chance. "Only a simpleton would believe that role played no part in bringing her down. Coincidences that large do not exist. So think what Elaida’s view of Rand must be. She was Red, remember. While you are thinking, answer me this. What were you at, bonding him like that?"

 

Heck even if she had acted overly surprised that would just make me more suspicious given how good she is at wearing different masks.

 

Also, Verin and Alanna have had a conversation about this in the Two Rivers. Only Faile's threat to kill Alanna stopped her from bonding Perrin. And when Verin saw Alanna go through the motions to talk to Rand alone, she knew what Alanna's intention was: to bond Rand. She didn't warn him because: a) she wanted him bonded; or b) she didn't think Alanna would do it without his consent. I lean towards (a) because Verin knew Alanna's emotional state after months of companionship in the Two Rivers and afterwards.

 

Why did Verin choose Alanna to go with her to the Two Rivers? Was that mere coincidence (a noun that doesn't fit Verin at all)? Or did Verin trust her (as non BA) to do what is needed to be done?

Edited August 18, 2012 by Theodril

[Luckers]

Also, I have heard discussion in a lot of threads about AS releasing Warders from their bonds.

A lot of people ask why Rand didn't just make Alanna do this.

I have read through the entire series multiple times and don't actually remember anyone ever saying warders can be released from their bonds.

I remember multiple times that transferring the bond from one AS to another was mentioned.

Can anyone find a direct quote referring to an AS being able to release her Warder without transferring the bond to someone else?

 

There are a couple. The reason Rand didn't make Alanna do it is that he did not know it was possible until Winter's Heart Chapter 25. In any case here is RJ on the issue.

 

Week 13 Question

 

Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

Robert Jordan

 

 

Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on him.

It has also been used to get rid of a Warder who proved to be unsuitable in some way, such as a man who is discovered to be a thief or who takes reckless chances, a fighter of duels who won't stop without the bond being used to force him. No sister is going to want a Warder who will risk getting himself killed, with all the attendant results to her, for no very good reason.

Although use of the bond in that way (controlling) was not unknown in the past, it came to be regarded as a form of Compulsion to use it so except in the slightest forms. Besides, using the bond to control a Warder all the time is a lot of work. An Aes Sedai wants somebody who can watch her back and keep it safe, not somebody she has to work on all the time. (Which is one of the reasons Aes Sedai stopped bonding men against their will. Not ethical concerns or ethical growth, I'm afraid; it was just not very practical really.) Better simply to release the fellow who can't measure up and find another who will.

By the by, releasing a Warder except for cause (the Aes Sedai's imminent death, his own unsuitability) or because he has asked for release is something that JUST IS NOT DONE! It would gain the sister considerable opprobrium from other sisters. A sister certainly would be looked at askance if she released a Warder who was dying, for example, just to avoid the effects on her of his death. When an Aes Sedai bonds a Warder, she is expected to buy in for the full ride. For that matter, releasing him for unsuitability is considered to reflect on the sister's judgment. She should have known better about him from the start.

[driedraspberry]

Interesting RJ quote. So breaking a warder bond is probably as socially acceptable to their time as divorce. It explains Marise's reaction when Rand asked him to release Narishma. Although she treats him more like a pet than anything.

 

The scene after Alanna bonding Rand was in Verin's POV and I didn't get the impression she had compelled her. Later, Cadsune pretty much confirmed that forcibly bonding Rand wasn't out of the question. She would've done it herself. And according to RJ's quote it's all a matter of impracticality. Yikes, I reserve the right to keep hating Alanna until there is solid proof.

[Suttree]

She would've done it herself. And according to RJ's quote it's all a matter of impracticality.

 

Rand is a special case. Although it went out of style originally because it was impractical, we know most sisters in current times view it the same as rape.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Suttree

[Terez]

Yeah, not sure if you missed it earlier but the AS bond requires a weave of spirit to compel and doesn't work on male channelers. It is rarely used and highly looked down upon however.

 

I don't think we can say for sure it doesn't work on male channelers. It might be strength-dependent, i.e. it doesn't work on Rand because he is much stronger than Alanna.

 

The Ashaman experimented widely with bonding and know much more about it than AS. Their bond with the "extra bit" can compel with just a though, channeler or no.

 

Technically the Aes Sedai did start experimenting around the same time, and they can also do a bond with the extra bit:

 

“The Warder bond could be modified slightly,” Maigan said. “As it is, you can make the man do as you wish with a little tweak­ing, but the need to tweak could be removed quite easily.”

 

“That sounds too much like Compulsion,” Egwene said firmly.