How were the Seals made? (the Patch yin yang discs)

[jsbrads]

I think the discs function to be the focal points for the weaves that close DO's prison, so logically they would be converted to cuellidar after the weaves were made, but if so, with 100 men, how did they make the other half white? (without women)

Also curious is the half black half white, where did they find a woman and a man of equal strength, note the pattern would been made by two people picking a point and channeling, the flows would spread equally in all directions and once the the two circles touched they would fill the remaining disc in this pattern, I guess, the problem being that women and men are not equal in strength...

[MasterAblar]

I think the discs function to be the focal points for the weaves that close DO's prison, so logically they would be converted to cuellidar after the weaves were made, but if so, with 100 men, how did they make the other half white? (without women)

 

Seeing as we have no idea how exactly LTT sealed the DO away (apart from saidin touching him), it's hard to say if the seals could be made before hand or not. Also, I'm not certain that cuendillar made by men would be black. Cuendillar made by women is certainly white which we've seen in the books, but we've never actually seen a man make cuendillar.

 

Also curious is the half black half white, where did they find a woman and a man of equal strength, note the pattern would been made by two people picking a point and channeling, the flows would spread equally in all directions and once the the two circles touched they would fill the remaining disc in this pattern, I guess, the problem being that women and men are not equal in strength...

 

Making cuendillar is a Talent, and also seems to rely on strength in fire and earth if I remember correctly. Strength may help but it's probably not the most important. And besides not only would finding a man and woman of equal strength be relatively simple, but the woman's dexterity makes up for the man's greater strength, so if they are equal in Talent, then the man would actually have to be a little stronger. Of course it's quite possible that channellers in the AoL knew more about the making of cuendillar. Also, women may not even have been involved in the making of the seals, seeing as LPD formed the Fateful Concord.

 

So, all things considered, there's a lot we don't know about the seals...

[LemonPastie]

It could also be that the disk was formed with different metals - Iron turns white and copper turns black? or the channeler may be able to encompass their half of the disk then turn everything inside the weave and thus creating the split

[Cybertrolloc]

Strike at Shayol Ghul (with its caveats):

One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar.

[rand4747]

probably just a small tweak in the weaving can give a different colour cuendillar, the 2 colours on 1 object would probably take a bit of effrt to get right couse would have to do just half the seal then stop and then the other half different.

[FarShainMael]

To avoid any sort of weakness at the junction I don't think you could start with different metals. If women make white C and men make black, I should think they'd have to be linked, for the same reason.

 

Also, although the range of strength in men is greater than that in women, IIRC the weakest male channeller is not stronger than the strongest female channeller. There's a lot of overlap. So it should be quite possible to find a man and woman of equal strength.

[gloweye]

To avoid any sort of weakness at the junction I don't think you could start with different metals. If women make white C and men make black, I should think they'd have to be linked, for the same reason.

 

Also, although the range of strength in men is greater than that in women, IIRC the weakest male channeller is not stronger than the strongest female channeller. There's a lot of overlap. So it should be quite possible to find a man and woman of equal strength.

 

According to RJ, woman strength is 21 levels. Man strength is those same, with 5-6 levels on top of it. That says that the weakest man and the weakest woman match in strength. The expanded top for males is one of the causes for the higher average. A higher average strength would to(as you'd think) but as far as I know, that has never be confirmed.

[FarShainMael]

Thanks, I remember that now!

[Kaznen]

I thought the diffence in OP strength was simply the male/female dynamic with humans. Men are, on average, stronger then women and women, on average, are more flexible then men.

 

When you do a case by case basis then strong women are stronger then weak men. But if you had an encounter with random AS and random AM it would be safe to bet the AM was stronger.

 

Of course Nyneave is probally stronger then half the Black Tower.

[mmurray821]

There really isn't a lot of info on how the DO was sealed up by the Dragon. Pretty much all we know is:

 

1.) It was weaker than planned due to women not being there

2.) The seals were the focus points to the weave (whether they were cuendillar at the start or transformed into cuendillar as the weave was laid on the bore is unknown)

3.) The weaving had to touch the DO and the backblast made all the male Aes Sedi there instantly insane and tained Sadin.

 

I am hoping we get a lot more info in AMoL as Rand now has full access to Lews Therin's memories and knows full well how the seals were made and deployed.

[FarShainMael]

I thought the diffence in OP strength was simply the male/female dynamic with humans. Men are, on average, stronger then women and women, on average, are more flexible then men.

 

When you do a case by case basis then strong women are stronger then weak men. But if you had an encounter with random AS and random AM it would be safe to bet the AM was stronger.

 

Quite so; but when you're looking for a pair to make a seal (IF that's how it's done) then it wouldn't be a random choice.

[Arath Faringal]

But it wouldn't necessarily have to be a strong pair. After Egwene, Leane is the most talented at making cuendillar. She isn't exactly high on the strength scale now. Strength is less of a factor where Talent's are concerned.

[FarShainMael]

So it's more a question of equality in skill?

[MasterAblar]

So it's more a question of equality in skill?

 

I assume that having equal Talent for making cuendillar would be key yes.

 

Also as men are stronger in Earth and the key element in the making of cuendillar is Earth, would that mean men are generally better at making Cuendillar?

[FarShainMael]

So it's more a question of equality in skill?

 

I assume that having equal Talent for making cuendillar would be key yes.

 

Also as men are stronger in Earth and the key element in the making of cuendillar is Earth, would that mean men are generally better at making Cuendillar?

 

Generally, yes. So if they needed a woman of equivalent talent, that could be a problem.

[MasterAblar]

Is there an actual Talent for making Cuendillar, or is it just strength in Earth that matters? Could someone be very strong in Earth but have absolutely no ability in making Cuendillar?

[bobarose]

the seals could have been made for another purpose and lews knew he needed something like them to seal the bore.maybe thats why they took so long to decay.they were made before the taint.like the ways they are slower to rot?

[TristanWebb]

the seals could have been made for another purpose and lews knew he needed something like them to seal the bore.maybe thats why they took so long to decay.they were made before the taint.like the ways they are slower to rot?

Hehe. 'Well, we're off to the blight but we need some cuendillar. I'll just take this pack of coasters, they'll do I guess' :P

[bobarose]

well the seals didnt work right?so they may have been coasters.maybe they were using them to stop the blight when it started after the bore was opened and lews figured they might work?and cuendillar cups need cuendillar coasters right lol.

[FarShainMael]

Is there an actual Talent for making Cuendillar, or is it just strength in Earth that matters?  Could someone be very strong in Earth but have absolutely no ability in making Cuendillar?

 

It's apparently a weave, which Egwene deduced from what she gleaned from Moggy (CoT17).  Besides Earth, it needs Air and Fire. (Er.. isn't that a musical group? Talk about heavy metal..   )

 

A-hem. Where was I.. Ah yes. Women tend to be stronger in Air, men in Earth and Fire AIUI. So there's a bit of balance there.

 

But it seems some people can't learn the weave, such as Beonin (KoD2) - who, according to this is Level 10, where Eg is Level 15. (Is there a similar rating for relative abilities in the different Powers?) And Eg is in the top half-dozen or so Lightside characters.

[MasterAblar]

It's apparently a weave, which Egwene deduced from what she gleaned from Moggy (CoT17). Besides Earth, it needs Air and Fire. (Er.. isn't that a musical group? Talk about heavy metal.. )

 

*applause*

 

A-hem. Where was I.. Ah yes. Women tend to be stronger in Air, men in Earth and Fire AIUI. So there's a bit of balance there.

 

Yes, but according to Egwene strength in Earth is the key. (CoT: Chapter 17)

 

But it seems some people can't learn the weave, such as Beonin (KoD2) - who, according to this is Level 10, where Eg is Level 15. (Is there a similar rating for relative abilities in the different Powers?) And Eg is in the top half-dozen or so Lightside characters.

 

I don't think there is, probably because we don't know enough about who is strong in what elements. I wonder how it works with the different powers between the genders. For example is there a level of strength in Air and Wind that men cannot reach, and vice verca for women with Fire and Earth? Or can they all reach the same level of strength in all elements?

[FarShainMael]

It's apparently a weave, which Egwene deduced from what she gleaned from Moggy (CoT17).  Besides Earth, it needs Air and Fire. (Er.. isn't that a musical group? Talk about heavy metal..   )

 

*applause*

 

Takes bow

 

A-hem. Where was I.. Ah yes. Women tend to be stronger in Air, men in Earth and Fire AIUI. So there's a bit of balance there.

 

Yes, but according to Egwene strength in Earth is the key. (CoT: Chapter 17)

True enough.

 

But it seems some people can't learn the weave, such as Beonin (KoD2) - who, according to this is Level 10, where Eg is Level 15. (Is there a similar rating for relative abilities in the different Powers?) And Eg is in the top half-dozen or so Lightside characters.

 

I don't think there is, probably because we don't know enough about who is strong in what elements. I wonder how it works with the different powers between the genders. For example is there a level of strength in Air and Wind that men cannot reach, and vice verca for women with Fire and Earth? Or can they all reach the same level of strength in all elements?

That's one for Team Jordan, I think!

[Cybertrolloc]

How about you all reread the chapter in CoT about them making heartstone and then come back?

 

Even if men and women can only make those colors, it seems as if it'd be easy to work together to make a pattern.

[bobarose]

How about you all reread the chapter in CoT about them making heartstone and then come back?

 

Even if men and women can only make those colors, it seems as if it'd be easy to work together to make a pattern.

when lews went to seal the bore the women refused to help him,thats why i thought the seals were made for another purpose long before his trip to the bore.

[TristanWebb]

You can make different colours of steel pretty easy by mixing in contaminents. I would imagine with a bit of practice altering the weaves and alloys of the iron you could get a whole range of colours.