Was Min wrong about the Aes Sedai keeping their oath

[Maleshub]

According to Min's viewing, the definition of the service falls on Elza, not Rand. So, what she decides is a service, she will do. You're taking this from Rand's angle, and defining the service according to what he might think is service. So, Min's viewing wasn't wrong.

 

Also, the books use foreshadowing and foretellings extensively. Among the tools are Min's viewings, Egwene's dreams, Rand's dreams, Perrin's dreams, Aelfinn and Eelfinn. And these are never wrong, even if their interpretation is not straightforward.

[Byzantine279]

The simple answer is that it is safest to treat all prophecy like Aes Sedai... liars under the thin guise of truth.

[jsbrads]

Theodril: Yes I am taking it from rand's angle, according to the vision Elza had to also, she would serve him, not her own goals.

Her first rationalization, was that it would be okay to swear to Rand, because Rand's destiny at the Last Battle was preordained.

She killed osangar at SLogoth, not because she wanted to, but because she rationalized that it was okay to do so.

There is no rational to getting the domination band and giving it to semirage and going with her to capture Rand, that is not a service to Rand and it was before the Last Battle. Problem? Yes. Brandon said it was not forever, true, but it was before Last Battle....

 

DO's power and the pattern: DO influences the pattern, but every time he does, he changes the pattern, but Min doesn't read where the pattern is heading right now, but where it will be at a future time, so her reading of the pattern includes DO influences because they touch the pattern.

The only exception being that she can read the pattern and if the pattern no longer exists, she wasn't wrong because that was what the pattern resulted in, only it doesn't exist. Analogy: if we were in Vegas and I gave you driving directions to los angeles, but before you left, a massive earthquake split the san andreas fault, dropping most of Califonia into the Pacific ocean (a la Superman movie)... My driving directions weren't wrong, Los Angeles doesn't exist anymore but that doesn't invalidate the info I gave you.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Problem? Yes. Brandon said it was not forever, true, but it was before Last Battle....

Really, just let it go.

 

The quote confirms it. There is nothing more to say.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (30 JULY 2010)

Elza did serve Rand, in her own way. It did not mean forever. That was not a subverting of the viewing

.

[Maleshub]

The timeframe for her service you demand is based on Elza's definition, not Min's viewing. The viewing never stated that Elza would serve Rand till the Last Battle. The last bit you added on your own because of the oath she swore. But since she is black, this oath is not as strong as one made by an Aes Sedai bound by the oath rod. You have to remember that Elza is free of her original oaths and can lie; and is bound by a stronger oath to the DO (also on the oath rod).

 

The Aes Sedai who aren't black will follow Rand till the Last Battle. Their 3 oaths will make sure of it. The ones who swore to Rand and are Black Ajah have had to rationalize their service with their Oaths to the Dark One, which are as binding as the 3 oaths.

 

So, Elza served Rand in her own way for a time. And when Shadar Haran came to her and discovered compulsion on her mind, he ordered her to tell Semirhage to remove it. Thus, ended her period of service. My view is that the domination band episode was service to the DO, pure and simple. She thought she was serving the DO by keeping Rand alive; and when the DO in the flesh gave her a command, she obeyed.

 

That the two services (to Rand and to the DO) coincided for a while does not make the viewing wrong.

[Luckers]

I think I win any poll on this, but Elza knew she wasn't helping Rand.

 

Nor was she trying to help Rand. Rather, she was trying to help Rand attain his destiny as she saw it to be. And to that effect, she served him as a best she was able.

[yoniy0]

To be honest, I don't think she was, not after having her Compulsion removed. That doesn't matter, though. As Brandon said, her service "wasn't forever".

[jsbrads]

Theodril: Of course as in my original post, I never trusted Elza to tell the truth, I trusted Elza to keep her word only because Min said she would. this whole discussioon is about did Min fail, Elza's ability to lie is not in question.

 

Neither is compulsionan excuse for Min's vision failing. If I honestly tell you that I will meet you at the museum this sunday, and my car breaks down sunday morning as I drive to museum and there is no alternative mode of transit, we can forgive that. But if I tell you I will meet you at the museum on sunday and Min says I will keep my promise, I could be the most undependable person in the world and if I don't make it, it is Min's failure. how big a liar I might be has not impact on Min's vision, either it is right or wrong.

[kght22]

min is never wrong, and when she knows what something means, she is correct. the only way that she could be wrong about anything is if the dark one won and the pattern was destroyed. there i said it. it is that simple. that also says that no matter what one way or another aviendah will have rand's kids, and elayne will have his twins. that doesn't say anything else about that, other than that aviendah's kids will be strange. even after the pillars there are still a million and one ways that aviendah's kids could be strange. the fact is that min is NEVER WRONG.

[jsbrads]

thanks, that's the whole point, now just explain me one thing, how was she not wrong about Elza

[TristanWebb]

Each will searve you in their own way. Elza's way of serving Rand was bringing him to the Last Battle alive. Semi wouldn't of killed Rand because controlling him would more likely get her naeblis. Semi having Rand means no running around killing Darkfriends, no putting himself in danger. Therefore Elza helping Semi is serving to keep Rand alive, therefore she is still serving in her own way.

[Suttree]

thanks, that's the whole point, now just explain me one thing, how was she not wrong about Elza

 

That has already been explained in various ways, by multiple posters (including BS)in this thread. You are just refusing to see it. Still would like to see you make a poll btw, might put things in perspective.

[Maleshub]

Theodril: Of course as in my original post, I never trusted Elza to tell the truth, I trusted Elza to keep her word only because Min said she would. this whole discussioon is about did Min fail, Elza's ability to lie is not in question.

 

Min's viewing was that Elza will serve Rand in her own way.

 

Your interpretation is that she will serve him faithfully and will serve him till the last battle. Your interpretation adds (without basis) that Elza's service to Rand will be for his own good; and that it will be till the Last Battle. But Min's viewing never guaranteed either.

 

These are two different things.

 

Elza is bound by oaths to the DO. Verin used her compulsion to rationalize serving Rand with the oaths to the DO. Elza is not bound by her oath to Rand; but by her oath to the DO. And if Verin wasn't Black Ajah, she would have never been able to convince Elza to swear (falsely) to Rand so as to serve the DO.

 

Anyway, Elza's service during the cleansing and in the battle against the Trollocs in the manor at Tear are enough to fulfill Min's viewing (which again is not constrained by any time frame or sincerity of service).

 

Now, can you tell me how Min was wrong?

[jsbrads]

Theodril: The definition of an oath to serve Rand, desn't allow one to chose betray as a method of service.

 

all this nonsense with compulsion, previous service, and rationalizations, don't reflect the problem with Min's vision

[Byzantine279]

You are clearly completely missing the point, jsbrads. There is no problem with the vision, the problem is with how you are interpreting it. Treat it like an Aes Sedai, literally true, but it probably doesn't mean what you think it does. There is a reason she used terminology as vague and easily gotten around as "in their own way". That is because it hides the fact that some of their ways of serving him may not be to his liking, and that it may be a temporary thing. Rand took it as proof they would listen to him. Rand was wrong.

[Mr Ares]

Theodril: The definition of an oath to serve Rand, desn't allow one to chose betray as a method of service.

 

all this nonsense with compulsion, previous service, and rationalizations, don't reflect the problem with Min's vision

Because there is no problem. She served. That service ended. Min's Viewing did not say that service would last forever. If Min said that I would serve you, and I did serve you today, but tomorrow I horribly beat you, then I have still served you. Elza served Rand. Viewing fulfilled.

[Maleshub]

Theodril: The definition of an oath to serve Rand, desn't allow one to chose betray as a method of service.

 

all this nonsense with compulsion, previous service, and rationalizations, don't reflect the problem with Min's vision

 

Jsbrads, here is another analogy that might bring this closer to mind. Consider the following potential viewings by Min:

 

- "Semirhage will serve you in her own way." = She sent the Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to fight Sammael's Trollocs and thus save Rand's hold on the Stone of Tear.

- "Lanfear will serve you in her own way." = She will tell you about the power of the Choedan Kal (cleansing Saidin); and will bind Asmodean to teach you Saidin.

- "Asmodean will serve you in his own way." = He will teach you how to use Saidin.

- "Ishmael will serve you in his own way." = He will help you defeat Sammael (in Shadar Logoth) thus handing Illian to Rand.

 

The same logic applies to Min's viewing of Elza.

[jsbrads]

only Elza's oath was until the last battle

[Barid Bel Medar]

only Elza's oath was until the last battle

You want to pull that quote there? Where does it say this specifically?

 

Mind you, the quote that specifically says Min's vision stated she would serve to the last battle.

 

Not when Elza swore the oath, which included "swore under the Light and by their hope of salvation to serve the Dragon Reborn faithfully until the Last Battle had come and gone."

 

Elza, with the advantage of being Black Ajah, can lie.

 

The Viewing did not say this. The Viewing was: Beldeine, Elza, Erian, Nesune, Sarene and Sorilea - They will all serve Rand, each in her fashion. (PoD Ch29)

 

No mention of keeping the oath they swore, just that they would serve a purpose.

 

You may be confused with this.

 

Speaking to Rand of Alanna, Bera, Faeldrin, Merana and Rafela - "They will keep their word. I just saw these five in your hand."(aCoS Ch34)

 

This is where they keep their oath, not Elza.

[Suttree]

only Elza's oath was until the last battle

 

What does that have to do with the viewing?

[Maleshub]

only Elza's oath was until the last battle

 

Jsbrads, you're right! Elza's oath was until the last battle. Min's viewing didn't say that Elza would honor her oath; but would serve Rand in her own way. There is a difference between the two.