elayne and the severed hand

[PrinceOfRavens]

hi, im quite new here so dont flame me too bad

 

since rand has lost a hand. Wasnt there a vision of min that elayne was involved with a ''severed hand''? Isnt it possibe that se finds somehow to heal the hand? i might be so terribly wrong lol but i havent got the time to read everything.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Min did have a viewing involving a severed hand, and it now seems likely that the hand she saw was Rand's. As to whether it means he will be Healed, there doesn't seem to be enough detail to reach a conclusion based on the viewing alone. It is my opinion that he will not be Healed.

[Chapmann]

I'm of the opinion that the severed hand which isn't hers somehow is the Band of the Red Hand. They have orders from Talmanes to move into Andor and as Mat isn't with them you could kind of say that it is a severed hand. Maybe they will somehow force a big decision from Elayne. That could be a big moment in her life which all of Min's visions seems to be.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm going to assume you haven't read Knife of Dreams, Chapman ... but without spoiling it, let me say that unfortunately, your theory is incorrect. If you have already read Knife of Dreams, then you should know why.

[Guest Majsju]

I'm going to assume you haven't read Knife of Dreams, Chapman ... but without spoiling it, let me say that unfortunately, your theory is incorrect. If you have already read Knife of Dreams, then you should know why.

 

The event in KOD does by no means make Chapmann's theory incorrect, only a bit less likely.

 

But now I get a bit wary of explaining why, since I could not do that without at least giving massive hints to the KOD event, and I would hate to spoil it for Chapmann.

[RobertAlexWillis]

They have orders from Talmanes to move into Andor and as Mat isn't with them you could kind of say that it is a severed hand.

 

Without saying why, thats the part that seems to be voided by KoD.

[Guest Majsju]

Oh. Perhaps I should read post in their fullness before deciding what they say :lol:

[Mercer]

I don't know, the only reason why I suspected it wasn't Rand's hand is...why would Min view it on Elayne? I mean...yea, Elayne is involved/in love with Rand, but what does that have to do with Rand's hand? "Oh dear, my husband's hand is gone, I feel dreadul for him". She is still in no way really involved with the hand or even directly related to the circumstances it happened in. Maybe I'm just looking into it too deeply, and it is Rand's, and meant to be taken on the surface.

 

(Plus...uuh, wasn't Rand's hand simply burned away? There really wasn't any severing, was there?)

[algspkr]

First to those who do not believe that Chapmann has read KoD his theory rests on events in KoD.

I don't know, the only reason why I suspected it wasn't Rand's hand is...why would Min view it on Elayne? I mean...yea, Elayne is involved/in love with Rand, but what does that have to do with Rand's hand? "Oh dear, my husband's hand is gone, I feel dreadul for him". She is still in no way really involved with the hand or even directly related to the circumstances it happened in. Maybe I'm just looking into it too deeply, and it is Rand's, and meant to be taken on the surface.

 

(Plus...uuh, wasn't Rand's hand simply burned away? There really wasn't any severing, was there?)

Second this is a real interesting view, does anyone remember Min's other severed hand viewing? (at least I think it was Min) but I do not believe that it will prove to be the Band.

[Chapmann]

Without saying why, thats the part that seems to be voided by KoD.

Yeah Robert, I see your point here. I have read KoD and I know that he has banners of horse and 4000 crossbowmen with him but he is still "severed" from the rest of the band. I think the rest of the band led by Estean is the severed hand. Mat is a couple of miles away from the main portion of the band. Or are you of the opinion that Talmandes orders to go into Andor haven't reached them because the path which they came through was blocked?

[Chapmann]

Second this is a real interesting view, does anyone remember Min's other severed hand viewing? (at least I think it was Min) but I do not believe that it will prove to be the Band.

Min only has one severed hand viewing and that one she sees around Elayne. The other "hand viewing" is about Rand. I took this from the encyclopaedia-wot.org :

 

Min to Rand: "A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood, lightning around you, some striking at you, some coming out of you. You and I will meet again."

 

We don't know if that is one fulfilled or not but I'm leaning towards not because Rand's hand was burned of and not bloody. At least I don't think that was the event which fulfills the vision. It may have been fulfilled by another event.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Since that one comes from "The Eye of the World", it's at least possible that the bloody hand is the banner/symbol for The Band of the Red Hand. The "white hot iron" part might be to do with Aludra's Dragons.

[RobertAlexWillis]

First to those who do not believe that Chapmann has read KoD his theory rests on events in KoD.

 

The statement which follows that assertion is by Mercer, not Chapmann. Chapmann's original statement made no refernce to Rand losing his hand, or anything that happened in KoD.

 

I think the rest of the band led by Estean is the severed hand.

 

Now, that makes much more sense, actually, and I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

 

"A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood, lightning around you, some striking at you, some coming out of you. You and I will meet again."

 

Since every single other part of that viewing concerns Rand directly, its a bit of a stretch to think that only the hand part doesn't.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I agree. It's very strange.

 

It's the grouping of, "a bloody hand and white-hot iron", that doesn't entirely fit with Rand alone, everything else seems to pertain only to him.

 

All I can offer is that the Band and Aludra's cannon may be crucial to TG.

 

His hand didn't bleed when he lost it. Neither did the stump. And, how "white hot iron" fits with that doesn't make sense either. I'm forced to conclude that that part of the passage pertains to something vital to him rather than himself alone.

 

But, like you say, it's weird to put it in with a buncha stuff that pertains only to Rand personally.

[racha_giurgiu]

bloody hand and white hot iron. I don't have my books and can't remember much of anythin right now, but could it have anything to do with his palm being branded with the heron?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maybe. But, I don't recall the mention of blood in conjunction with his hands being branded.

[TheDiceAgain...]

To me, it seems strange that both Rand and Elayne would have auras that mention a bloody hand if they're not related in some way. Especially considering that Elayne's aura is of a "severed hand, not hers". Who else's hand would it be other than Rand's? There's also this, his mentions a "white hot iron" and hers a "red hot iron and an axe" (though the "hand" aura and the "iron and axe" viewings are not seen at the same time). It just seems that given their relationship, the hand must be the same one...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Hmmmmmmmm, that jogged a memory.

 

Remember the scene with Perrin and the captured Shaido who was being tortured for information by burning?

 

He loses his patience and lops off the guys hand, then gets disgusted with himself and leaves the axe in a tree.

 

Why that would come up in a viewing of anyone but Perrin??? But, it sure seems to fit.

[TheDiceAgain...]

I had forgotten that one, Bob. But you're right it does seem to fit; although why Elayne and Rand would have auras that reference something that happens to Perrin is beyond me.

[Mercer]

^ Any different than Elayne having an aura that references Rand, in another part of the world, when she doesn't even know of it, and Aviendha doesn't have the same aura? Maybe RJ is just trying to be as direct as possible in making us see the obvious, but with him it's always hard to tell...

 

Whats with the beggars staff around Rand that Min saw? Already occurred? Anybody recall?

[Chapmann]

Am I correct in assuming that you believe that both visions (Elayne and Rand) reference the same event?

 

I don't think so. I can't see how Rand losing a hand relates to Elayne in any way. How would that really affect her on a larger scale?

 

The viewings touch upon "important events" in the person with the aura's life. That's at least how I read it.

 

And one of the visions is about a severed hand and the other about a bloody hand. That's not the same thing.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think they *may* reference the same event.

 

But, it is certainly possible that they reference two different events.

 

Rand's being the one with "a bloody hand and white-hot iron" doesn't fit with the circumstances of the loss of his own hand, though.

 

Elayne's being the one with the severed hand, and referring specifically to an axe does seem to fit the incident with Perrin. Why her aura would contain something about Perrin is the question. Especially since she wasn't there and knows nothing about what happened.

[RobertAlexWillis]

a bloody hand and white-hot iron

 

It strikes me that that combination describes what happened to Rand's hand pretty well, in a symbolic sense. The hand was blown off and cauterized. Coming as it did in the middle of a list of predictions, given to Rand, all about Rand, it is hard for me to believe it represents anything else.

 

The severed hand in relation to Elayne, however, could represent something completely different. Chapmann's point about the majority of the Band of the Red Hand (whose sigil is, after all, a hand the color of blood) being severed from its leader, and quite possibly headed toward Andor without him, makes a meaningful run-in at least a plausible occurrence. Rand's original instructions to Mat and the Band did, after all, directly concern putting Elayne on the throne.