Sul'dam Severing

[csnyder]

I think a lot of the issue comes with discussions from other threads that others, Suttree and I have discussed beforehand (more Suttree pointing out my mistakes, but better to be called out than not). I will look it up, but there was a thread recently about the defintion of Wilderhood which would make the rest of this make more sense...

 

jsbrads - I was in the same boat as you, believing that the sul'dam could be severed. They (the sul'dam) can be shielded, but as it has been stated the damane lashes out instinctively and is still a weapon to be wary of. It is here in this utter chaotic response to being cut off where the sul'dam-damane Link is more akin to the Warder-bond than anything else (think of the death of a Warder's AS) - this also suggests (by no means am I stating clearly, just hoping for a discussion to either prove me wrong or right... ) that something has been cut off from the Link once a sul'dam is shielded.

 

Your statement that the sul'dam are the only ones who have participated in very nearly all parts of the channeling process except the actual channeling itself is something I agree with. That being said, it is here where I (and I assume Suttree because Suttree provided the quotes) am saying that they completely lack the channeling connection precisely through their use of the a'dam. The channeling connection itself IS the reason why people slow, without the slowing (sul'dam don't slow UNTIL they have that connection; Renna (dead), Seta, and Bethamin are now in the same unique and figurative boat and will slow because they have accepted the Source; however, the other sul'dam have yet to jump over the cliff/brink into that boat because it is dogma) one can assume that they have no connection to the Source through which to be severed from.

 

When you say that "in normal Randland, everyone else who never channeled, also had NO relationship with the power" this is exactly what Suttree (I assume, taking words out of your mouth...) and I are stating; sul'dam, if left as they had traditionally been, would never have had slowed or had a 'true' connection with the Source, and would never have been able to have been severed...meaning they have the 'unique' (in quotes because being a learner is far from unique; however, it is rare) skill in controlling damane without accessing the OP themselves (which would otherwise make them damane, too).

 

I like your idea for de-damane-izing therapy, it is very similar to the method used by AoLer AS using Links in order to buffer against accidentally burning out. For sul'dam, Vardarmus's idea of entering the Stedding may be a method to prove to the sul'dam their dormant connection with the TS.

 

Vardarmus - The extra weave was Fire, the title of the chapter where Severing was actively Healed was called Fire and Spirit. I agree with the Weaves being similar step-by-step process-wise, however you cannot deny that their individual outcomes differ widely (I'd rather be shielded instead of severed personally! ). You are basically saying fingers are similar to toes, where we are saying toes are different from fingers (basically, saying much the same thing. Similar inherently means that something mildly differs from the thing it is being compared to).

 

As for sul'dam entering a Stedding, I don't think they will feel a loss because they've never fallen off the cliff and made that connection with the Source - however, maybe through their damane they WILL feel a loss which would effectively reveal their unaccessed connection with the Source.

[Sharaman]

Since the a'dam link works through some transfer of OP, creating what Moridin referred to as " a forced circle" (TPoD), it might cease to work at all in a stedding. The damane and sul'dam may not be able to sense each other at all and the a'dam may not even work as a restraint in the way it's used to tether damane when they're not linked.

Unfortunately we don't have PoVs inside steddings that clarify if a woman who can channel can even sense another woman who can channel inside a stedding. Not even a reference to this in the artificial stedding of Far Madding either.

[yoniy0]

Involuntary rings, I believe it was. And, as the madman implied above, I think it's funny that this could also stand for the Warder Bond.

[Vardar]

Vardarmus - The extra weave was Fire, the title of the chapter where Severing was actively Healed was called Fire and Spirit. I agree with the Weaves being similar step-by-step process-wise, however you cannot deny that their individual outcomes differ widely (I'd rather be shielded instead of severed personally! ). You are basically saying fingers are similar to toes, where we are saying toes are different from fingers (basically, saying much the same thing. Similar inherently means that something mildly differs from the thing it is being compared to).

 

As for sul'dam entering a Stedding, I don't think they will feel a loss because they've never fallen off the cliff and made that connection with the Source - however, maybe through their damane they WILL feel a loss which would effectively reveal their unaccessed connection with the Source.

 

 

See the fingers and toes doesn't work too well either. You can be shielded for your entire life. Another question is, if you're shielded forever (Say it happens) would slowing reverse? Would you continue to slow if you couldn't touch the source?

 

It's really hard to find a proper analogy because you're right, the outcomes can be really different, or the same depending on the shield I guess. I mean severing can be healed now, so even that's not forever.

 

But yea, if the Step by step is the same, i.e. A severing is just cutting the pipe, vs blocking the pipe, then if there's something to block (Shielding) then by the same thought process you must be able to cut the pipe! (how's that)

[yoniy0]

I would say that a shielded channeler would stop slowing, yes, but we don't really know. We might get to see, though, if Liandrin survives the Last Battle.

[csnyder]

Ah! I finally see where our discussion points differ Vardarmus.

 

Let's return to the original function of the a'dam; remember how some sul'dam can see the weaves and others cannot?

I believe this splits the sul'dam into two groups - the ones able to see weaves and the others unable to.

To use your pipe metaphor, the sul'dam who can see the weaves but do not know with this means fits in nicely.

They are on the brink of channeling, meaning that they are in the process of the original pipe-building/installation.

Essentially, the ones who cannot see the weaves are in the installation process as well, but with a thick layer of cement (hell, let's make it cuendillar) planted firmly between the female-tubing and male-tubing (I am not a plumber or what have you, but the one side that you put a connecting tube into and the other side which accepts the other tube...). The water flow (the OP) will not flow through the pipe until that initial connection (diving over the brink) is made...this is where the sul'dam stand.

 

In any case, the sul'dam-damane 'involuntary link' (thanks Sharaman and yoniy0 for your input, let me state rather than imply that the a'dam is an advanced and patented version of the Warder bond... ) is not a link through which the damane serves as a conduit/medium for the sul'dam to actually touch the True Source like an angreal is to an individual channeler. Rather, the bracelet is a ter'angreal that can be used by potential and actual channelers through which to compulse the unfortunate leashed individual (through extensive training). Through some means, the ter'angreal does not allow non-channelers to control the bracelet - and the exact reasoning and nature of brinkers (learners) is unknown and left to speculation until it is clarified. One such test to be made, in addition to the sul'dam in a Stedding test, is whether a learner (or a sul'dam, for that matter) can use one of Elayne's dream ter'angreal that only channelers can use.

[TristanWebb]

But the ter'angreal that only channelers can use require a flow of spirit to work. That is why only channelers can use them. Making a damane channel into it might be interesting though :P

[Vardar]

Ah! I finally see where our discussion points differ Vardarmus.

 

Let's return to the original function of the a'dam; remember how some sul'dam can see the weaves and others cannot?

I believe this splits the sul'dam into two groups - the ones able to see weaves and the others unable to.

To use your pipe metaphor, the sul'dam who can see the weaves but do not know with this means fits in nicely.

They are on the brink of channeling, meaning that they are in the process of the original pipe-building/installation.

Essentially, the ones who cannot see the weaves are in the installation process as well, but with a thick layer of cement (hell, let's make it cuendillar) planted firmly between the female-tubing and male-tubing (I am not a plumber or what have you, but the one side that you put a connecting tube into and the other side which accepts the other tube...). The water flow (the OP) will not flow through the pipe until that initial connection (diving over the brink) is made...this is where the sul'dam stand.

 

In any case, the sul'dam-damane 'involuntary link' (thanks Sharaman and yoniy0 for your input, let me state rather than imply that the a'dam is an advanced and patented version of the Warder bond... ) is not a link through which the damane serves as a conduit/medium for the sul'dam to actually touch the True Source like an angreal is to an individual channeler. Rather, the bracelet is a ter'angreal that can be used by potential and actual channelers through which to compulse the unfortunate leashed individual (through extensive training). Through some means, the ter'angreal does not allow non-channelers to control the bracelet - and the exact reasoning and nature of brinkers (learners) is unknown and left to speculation until it is clarified. One such test to be made, in addition to the sul'dam in a Stedding test, is whether a learner (or a sul'dam, for that matter) can use one of Elayne's dream ter'angreal that only channelers can use.

 

It is really interesting. Sadly I don't believe we'll ever know these things. All we have is deductive reasoning based on facts from the books. Let me digest what you've said and think for a bit.

[jsbrads]

Isle of Madmen: really like your description of a pipe shoved into the the source, now it makes more sense.

 

And I not sure what anyone else believs, but I don't think anyone wants to compare the adam which is like an involutary circle (of 2) to the bond between AS and warder

[baalsmistress]

Just to hop back to the Elias quote.

 

The fact that the reds tried to gentle him and nothing happened, I interpreted to mean they used a spirit axe to sever his connection to the source, but since he didn't have one, there was no effect discernable to him - the nothing happened in that context only means that he couldn't see the spirit weave, and it didn't actually affect him.

 

I would also assume that anyone can be shielded. But someone that couldn't channel would have no discernable effects from the process.

 

I guess an analogy would be saying that people that can see are channellers, while blind people are non-channellers.

 

You can make someone temporarially blind by putting a black cloth over their eyes as a blindfold (shielded). You could do this to someone that was blind too, but it wouldn't affect them at all.

 

You can permanently make someone blind by exposing the eyes to an intense burst of light, damaging the eues and thus removing the capability to see (severing). You could do the same to a blind person, but they wouldn't notice it. In this analoy, healing the severing would be reversing the damage to the eyes.

 

With respect to the suldame, before reading this thread, I really didn't have an opinion on the matter, but from reading the thread, and thinking about my memories of the books, I would have no qualms about them being shielded, but would assume that a year or 2 of experence as a suldame would be needed before they could be severed. With respect to battlefield shielding, I would assume the difficulty of shielding them would be a factor of the power in the link, not just their personl power. So a weak shield would be repulsed due to the strength of the damane.

[Vardar]

Just to hop back to the Elias quote.

 

The fact that the reds tried to gentle him and nothing happened, I interpreted to mean they used a spirit axe to sever his connection to the source, but since he didn't have one, there was no effect discernable to him - the nothing happened in that context only means that he couldn't see the spirit weave, and it didn't actually affect him.

 

I would also assume that anyone can be shielded. But someone that couldn't channel would have no discernable effects from the process.

 

I guess an analogy would be saying that people that can see are channellers, while blind people are non-channellers.

 

You can make someone temporarially blind by putting a black cloth over their eyes as a blindfold (shielded). You could do this to someone that was blind too, but it wouldn't affect them at all.

 

You can permanently make someone blind by exposing the eyes to an intense burst of light, damaging the eues and thus removing the capability to see (severing). You could do the same to a blind person, but they wouldn't notice it. In this analoy, healing the severing would be reversing the damage to the eyes.

 

With respect to the suldame, before reading this thread, I really didn't have an opinion on the matter, but from reading the thread, and thinking about my memories of the books, I would have no qualms about them being shielded, but would assume that a year or 2 of experence as a suldame would be needed before they could be severed. With respect to battlefield shielding, I would assume the difficulty of shielding them would be a factor of the power in the link, not just their personl power. So a weak shield would be repulsed due to the strength of the damane.

 

I figured Elayas didn't like it only because they were holding him down trying to gentle him. I doubt anyone can be shielded, but then again I suppose you could try to block a pipe that was't there, nothing would happen. I'm assuming by :"trying" to severe Elayas they help him down and looked for something to cut, and that's what pissed him off.

[csnyder]

This is interesting. If, for example, say someone was a 'learner' and had yet to hold the OP or make that initial connection with the power; since it has been stated that someone who has yet to channel themselves are incapable of being severed would that make any attempts of severing them pre-channeling be futile or can they only be really cut off once they've channeled. Say Elyas, out of nowhere, is able to channel once an asha'man tests him for the skill - would he still be cut off per the severing he suffered years ago or would it have had an effect on him?

 

Ba'al Mistress - I think sul'dam experience does either one of two things; one, makes you build a near-indestructible block or two, pushes you so close to falling over that metaphorical cliff that you are on your tip-toes. It does not, apparently, allow for severing or serve as a direct connection to the Source.

[baalsmistress]

IoM, I absolutely agree that the majority (vast majority) of Sul'dam have a extreme block concerning active channelling. I can't really see how someone could grow up in the seanchan empire without developing such a block. And we have RJ's statement that severing on a person that does not have active channelling ability is ineffective.

 

I can also see that the sul'dam experience will place the person in a position where they are constantly exposed to channelling in a circle. I can easily imagine that that would be a factor in eroding the effectiveness of the block, though even if the block were totally eroded, there is still no reason that the sul'dam would actually take the step of embracing the source. Without her taking that step, there would still be nothing to sever, and thus no effect to a severing attempt.

 

I would like to emphasise that I'm talking there about the effect of the attempt to sever. Nothing would stop an Aes Sedai forming the weave and slicing it between the sul'dam and the source. It would simply strike nothing, and have no effect on the sul'dam - though they may be able to see the weave if they have enough exposure to linking.

 

Likewise, placing a shield between the source and a person will prevent them interacting with the source. If they are not active channellers, this will not be noticed since they will never try to interact with it.