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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

the finns


joeybsmash
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Guest Majsju

Freak out? Hardly, since it was more common back in the days for people to use the tower for entrance.

 

And then, they might already know about it, if mat is correct about them seeing through his eye.

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I think Moiraine is a bit smarter than people realize, and that Thom is actually the stupid one. Why?

 

Moiraine TOLD Thom in the letter what needed to be done. But Thom pondered over the letter, expecting every tenth character or somethign to have a meaning. Moiraine asked for a safe release, which she will get, but the Finns demanded something that Moiraine alone can't give, like the Return of Mat, or some knowledge that Olver possessed. Perhaps the Finns have also been trapped in their world, and Olver's playing of the game gave him something the Finns need to leave it. I dunno... But I think that an armed enterence is something the Finns are hoping to avoid, until the deal is broken.

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I think Olver will be there whether or not he is the third Moiraine wrote about or he sneaks in after them. There is a scene where Mat and Olver are playing the game and Mat thinks to himself Olver hasn't yet realized you have to cheat to win. When Olver is in the tower with them he will realize this and somehow cheat the Finns to get Moiraine back.

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so have mat close his eyes...lol jp

Has nobody else thought that the obvious reason that Mat loses his eye is that it stops the Finns seeing through it so he plucks it out himself! This way he fulfils prophecy by sacrificing his eye (by his own choice) to hide his future actions from the Finns and save Moiraine.

 

The Finns can only see the future, not the past (hence no memories of children for Mat and their ability to prophecise) and the only way the Finns wouldn't know Mat's actions would be if he could hide his future actions.

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Moiraine TOLD Thom in the letter what needed to be done. But Thom pondered over the letter' date=' expecting every tenth character or somethign to have a meaning.[/quote']

 

hmmmmmmm... I assume you're referring to the fact that Thom kept rereading the letter.

 

I see that as a ploy Thom used to continually give Mat an opportunity to ask about it as Moiraine said he must before Thom could let him in on what they need to do.

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Guest Majsju
so have mat close his eyes...lol jp

Has nobody else thought that the obvious reason that Mat loses his eye is that it stops the Finns seeing through it so he plucks it out himself! This way he fulfils prophecy by sacrificing his eye (by his own choice) to hide his future actions from the Finns and save Moiraine.

 

The Finns can only see the future' date=' not the past (hence no memories of children for Mat and their ability to prophecise) and the only way the Finns wouldn't know Mat's actions would be if he could hide his future actions.[/quote']

 

Problem is, everything points at Mat losing One eye, if it was so that the finns only saw through one eye, how would he first know that, and then know which eye it was?

 

And I don't think the finns sees Mat's future, they see what he's doing right here right now.

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And I don't think the finns sees Mat's future' date=' they see what he's doing right here right now.[/quote']

Well, everything so far supports the view that the Finns see a person's future (not to mention the associated mythology of the wisdom of the dead seeing into the future but knowing nothing of the past). Don't forget that Mat has no memories of young people or children (i.e. before they went to the Finns) but has plenty of men dying (i.e. after they have been to see the Finns).

 

Combine the two (mythology and story) and you have a remarkably simple explanation for their knowledge and why Mat gives up his eye.

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On the contrary, all evidence supports the idea that the Finns see through the eyes of their visitors in real time, saving the memories in the process. This explains why there are no memories prior to visiting the finns, but plenty of what happened to a person after the fact, much better than the idea that the Finns somehow will know the future of their visitors.

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Agreed, and thats the conclusion Mat comes to as well. It may be, though, that the Finn do not entirely percieve what they are viewing. the attack on the tower of genji may not be expected. But, then again, it may be. its sort of RAFO at this point.

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Guest Majsju
And I don't think the finns sees Mat's future' date=' they see what he's doing right here right now.[/quote']

Well, everything so far supports the view that the Finns see a person's future (not to mention the associated mythology of the wisdom of the dead seeing into the future but knowing nothing of the past). Don't forget that Mat has no memories of young people or children (i.e. before they went to the Finns) but has plenty of men dying (i.e. after they have been to see the Finns).

 

Combine the two (mythology and story) and you have a remarkably simple explanation for their knowledge and why Mat gives up his eye.

 

I think you are making the mistake of seeing the Ael'finn and Eel'finn as being the same.

Where the Eel'finn seems to have some ability to read people's threads in the pattern, and thus see their future, there are no indications the Ael'finn possess any such ability.

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Do we really know that Mat gives up his real eye? Maybe its more of a proverbial eye. Like his conection with Rand and Perrin, the one that allows them to see what each other is doing at the moment. Another possibility is his ability to look into past mens memories 8) and draw on their experiences.

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i like the idea of him losing the memories, since it seems to fit, but wouldn't that just suck if he lost all that knowledge right before the Last Battle? but it makes sense if he has to take out the finns, so he loses his memories.

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And I don't think the finns sees Mat's future' date=' they see what he's doing right here right now.[/quote']

Well, everything so far supports the view that the Finns see a person's future (not to mention the associated mythology of the wisdom of the dead seeing into the future but knowing nothing of the past). Don't forget that Mat has no memories of young people or children (i.e. before they went to the Finns) but has plenty of men dying (i.e. after they have been to see the Finns).

 

Combine the two (mythology and story) and you have a remarkably simple explanation for their knowledge and why Mat gives up his eye.

 

I think you are making the mistake of seeing the Ael'finn and Eel'finn as being the same.

Where the Eel'finn seems to have some ability to read people's threads in the pattern, and thus see their future, there are no indications the Ael'finn possess any such ability.

 

Thats not nessasarily true. RJ said, of the foxes, that they need to be paid in addition to the feeding on of experience. Additionally they had access to the experiences of the past travellers, which suggests that even if they don't themselves do that, they can look at what the snakes gathered.

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*i like the idea of him losing the memories, since it seems to fit, but wouldn't that just suck if he lost all that knowledge right before the Last Battle? but it makes sense if he has to take out the finns, so he loses his memories.*

 

 

Even if he lost all those memories, he wouldnt necessarily lose the ways he has implemented those memories up till now, which would still leave a considerable amount of knowledge to draw from...just a thought.

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And cue luckers witht the voice of reason!

 

Even if he does lose the momories (NOT LIKELY)*, he still has his beastly luck and ta'averen-ness.

 

 

*If you would insinuate that he'd lose his memories , you pretty much say that he'd also lose his ahsanderi (sp) and medallion; they are of the same physical reality as his memories. The Shadar logoth blace originally took his memories, and that was strong enough to touch him to the core, giving him his luck also. Even if a person dies, you still remember what they did wen they lived.

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Also i suppose there is a question of wether the memories are actually his now... i mean, i think we have enough evidence to say that the presense of the memories has changed him enough that their immediate removal wont change him back. They will have infected everything that has happened since he got them, and even if they are removed, what remains will like amount to the same level of skill. since he got them he hasn't just re-enacted them, he's used them to create new things, the learning he got while doing that isnt just going to disapear...

 

I'm the voice of reason now? ... how stressful.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Majsju
Mat is the son of battles and he is also spun out by the wheel. Would Mat have eventually came on these memories himself before going through the door' date=' or was it necessary for him to get them activated by someone? :?[/quote']

 

It was necessary for him to go through the door, because the memories was planted there by the finns, they are not memories from his past lives.

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Mmm. Maj is right, the memories are from people who, at one stage or another, entered the world of the finns through either the tower or the doorway. We also have no proof that Mat is a hero of the wheel... indeed, whilst artur hawkwing and birgette and all that recognize rand in his current form, they dont mat, indicating he was never bound to the wheel.

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